Dips for AC with Rogue (Sorcerer, Cleric, or Fighter)

[JeenLeen]

I'm playing a rogue and about to hit level 3. I've been annoyed at my relatively low AC -- I have 16 Dex and don't plan to increase it since I want feats instead -- so I'm considering multiclassing.

In our game, we found a Staff of Defense, which (if attuned) gives +1 AC and lets one cast Mage Armor and Shield. I can have this item if I want it. (I originally planned to go Arcane Trickster, but then learned that does not meet the attunement requirements.)

I want to avoid having disadvantage on Stealth checks, so that limits armor use a little bit.

So I'm considering:

Cleric - likely Knowledge since I like proficiencies and languages. Get medium armor + shields. Get some useful spellcasting.
Fighter - get medium armor and some useful abilities.
Sorcerer -- my Cha is 13, so accuracy/saves aren't great, but can get some utility spells (Message, Disguise Self). I could go draconic to have the equivalent of Mage Armor without the staff, or I could go wild magic to get (likely just) 1/day advantage and thus sneak attack on a dice roll. That seems a decent synergy with rogue, and this class lets me attune the Staff of Defense.
I've considered Ranger a little bit, since extra language via Favored Enemy and, if I go to level 2, I could get Hunter's Mark for basically extra sneak attack die.


I plan to stop gaining Rogue levels after level 5. But I imagine the campaign will end before we are level 10.
We have a 3-PC party (a tankish/melee cleric, a blaster warlock, and me), so I don't want to be a range rogue since otherwise the cleric will be swamped. Thus, I realize the Staff of Defense isn't a great thing in that it hinders me using two weapons that could get sneak attack.

Any advice on rogue synergy and getting AC?

[JellyPooga]

My best advice? Don't multiclass. Stick it out as a Rogue. Pick up Shield through Arcane Trickster, if you want it, but Uncanny Dodge comes online at 5th level and that will more than make up for a relatively low AC. Delaying your ASI/Feat is generally a bad idea; grabbing Dual Wielder at 4th could give you +1AC, or Defensive Duelist for your Proficiency Bonus to AC.

Any particular reason for ditching Rogue at 5th? Rogue is a totally competitive Class for a <10th level game.

If you're set on multiclassing though...

- Barbarian has excellent Rogue synergy and offers Unarmoured Defence and Shield proficiency on the AC front and Resistance to damage that stacks with Uncanny Dodge.

- Fighter will give you Medium Armour, Shields and the Defence Fighting Style for an extra +1 AC. Battlemaster also offers Parry for damage reduction.

- Paladin also offers Medium Armour, Shields and Defence Fighting Style, but also Shield of Faith and Protection from E/G, both solid defensive spells.

- Warlock doesn't immediately look like a defensive Class, but has much to offer. Armour of Agathys, Protection from E/G, Invisibility and Mirror Image are all in easy reach. Armour of Shadows offers all-day Mage Armour, Devil's Sight + Darkness is cheesy but a solid defence. Fiendlocks also enjoy temporary HP from ganking fools. If you'v grabbed Shield through Arcane Trickster, Pact Magic ensures you've always got it handy.

Other classes offer other options, but those would be my top 4 recommendations.

[Fighting_Ferret]

The biggest pick up you can get for AC is not the mage armor spell, or even medium armor, but rather a shield. If you are concerned with stealth, the best medium armor for you would be a breastplate, granting a 14 AC +2 Dex for 16. You are currently in Studded Leather, granting 12 AC + 3 Dex for 15. Now lets look at options.

Not sure what your ability scores are, but keep in mind... you'd need a wisdom of 13 for cleric or ranger...you already have the 13 dex for fighter and part of the ranger. Also not sure what feats you are dead set on, or what archetype of rogue you want to be. You have the prereqs for bard, sorcerer, and warlock, and the charisma half of paladin. Barbarian and paladin require 13 strength.

Fighter - initial: medium armor, shields, second wind, fighting style, higher hp die
2nd : action surge
3rd : archetype (better criticals, spell casting, or combat maneuvers)
4th : ASI/feat
5th : extra attack

Ranger - initial: medium armor, shields, favored enemy, favored terrain, higher hp die, extra skill
2nd : spell casting(most notably hunter's mark for offense, but there are no defensive spells here), fighting style
3rd : archetype (damage or companion) colossus slayer adds damage to injured enemies and horde breaker can net you a free attack.
4th : ASI/feat
5th : extra attack

Cleric - initial: medium armor, shields, spell casting, domain bonus (you don't care about heavy armor proficiency due to stealth, so arcane, knowledge, light, trickery, and war are ideal choices.
2nd : Channel Divinity, Divine Domain feature
3rd :2nd level clerical spells
4th :ASI/feat
5th : 3rd level spells

[Oramac]

Sorcerer -- my Cha is 13, so accuracy/saves aren't great, but can get some utility spells (Message, Disguise Self). I could go draconic to have the equivalent of Mage Armor without the staff, or I could go wild magic to get (likely just) 1/day advantage and thus sneak attack on a dice roll. That seems a decent synergy with rogue, and this class lets me attune the Staff of Defense.
[/LIST]

With a 13 Cha, if you happen to have a 13 Str you could go Paladin as well. I'm AFB right now so I don't know if Smite and Sneak Attack stack, but if they do you could have some pretty sick nova damage in addition to gaining medium armor and shields.

[Fighting_Ferret]

Smite and sneak attack would stack, as long as you meet the requirements for sneak attack to activate.

[MrFahrenheit]

Stay as rogue till at least 3, then go fighter for at least 5 more.

I actually recommend going thief for your rogue subclass, and then battlemaster for fighter's.

Round 1 of combat: disarming sneak attack to force the enemy to drop their weapon (assuming they fail the maneuver save). Use free action to interact with item and kick it away. Next, sleight of hand their holstered secondary weapon into your backpack. Move to next bad guy, willing to take an AoO from the first, which is now just 1+str mod. Against an enemy without items, pull out your crossbow.

Situationally useful, but sees more activity than needing to constantly rely on surprise rounds like the assassin, though YMMV as this statement is game dependent. Of course, with a surprise round as the thief build above, you could liberate them from their primary with your bonus action, and their secondary with your action...action, before they even ready for battle.

Edit (forgot to mention AC): As regards AC...tbh, the rogue's ability to not get hit relies on stealth and simply not being a target more than any AC score itself. Hence, hiding as a bonus action.

[Biggstick]

I'm playing a rogue and about to hit level 3. I've been annoyed at my relatively low AC -- I have 16 Dex and don't plan to increase it since I want feats instead -- so I'm considering multiclassing.

In our game, we found a Staff of Defense, which (if attuned) gives +1 AC and lets one cast Mage Armor and Shield. I can have this item if I want it. (I originally planned to go Arcane Trickster, but then learned that does not meet the attunement requirements.)

I want to avoid having disadvantage on Stealth checks, so that limits armor use a little bit.

So I'm considering:

Cleric - likely Knowledge since I like proficiencies and languages. Get medium armor + shields. Get some useful spellcasting.
Fighter - get medium armor and some useful abilities.
Sorcerer -- my Cha is 13, so accuracy/saves aren't great, but can get some utility spells (Message, Disguise Self). I could go draconic to have the equivalent of Mage Armor without the staff, or I could go wild magic to get (likely just) 1/day advantage and thus sneak attack on a dice roll. That seems a decent synergy with rogue, and this class lets me attune the Staff of Defense.
I've considered Ranger a little bit, since extra language via Favored Enemy and, if I go to level 2, I could get Hunter's Mark for basically extra sneak attack die.


I plan to stop gaining Rogue levels after level 5. But I imagine the campaign will end before we are level 10.
We have a 3-PC party (a tankish/melee cleric, a blaster warlock, and me), so I don't want to be a range rogue since otherwise the cleric will be swamped. Thus, I realize the Staff of Defense isn't a great thing in that it hinders me using two weapons that could get sneak attack.

Any advice on rogue synergy and getting AC?

It really sort of depends on what type of campaign you're playing as well as the role you're filling.

I'm a bit biased, but I love Cleric. Adding Guidance to every out of combat ability check (stealth, lockpicking, knowledge checks, etc etc) ups your skill monkey highs. Adding another couple expertise skills from the Knowledge side would seem the way to go for just a single level dip. You'd also be able to pick up some neat spells like Bless or Sanctuary.

Not sure if it's been covered or assumed, but you have the minimum Wis requirement to MC into Cleric right?

[eastmabl]

Stay as rogue till at least 3, then go fighter for at least 5 more.

I actually recommend going thief for your rogue subclass, and then battlemaster for fighter's.

I would advise against. You've got a limited amount of actions in your economy, and you're taking one subclass (battlemaster) which makes good use of the action economy and adds it another class (rogue, but also thief) that is build on vigorous commerce in the action economy.


Round 1 of combat: disarming sneak attack to force the enemy to drop their weapon (assuming they fail the maneuver save). Use free action to interact with item and kick it away. Next, sleight of hand their holstered secondary weapon into your backpack. Move to next bad guy, willing to take an AoO from the first, which is now just 1+str mod. Against an enemy without items, pull out your crossbow.

I'm not sure if you can do that all in one turn, and I'm unsure if the enemy couldn't just go and pick up the weapon that you kicked out of the way.

Remember that enemies, even without weapons, who are in melee with you will still impose disadvantage on your attack rolls, provided that they are (1) hostile, (2) can see you and (3) not incapacitated.

(For the DMs out there, an enemy without weapons can always try to grapple).


Situationally useful

Good builds aren't situational, and this situation doesn't work with a lot of the Monster Manual.


but sees more activity than needing to constantly rely on surprise rounds like the assassin, though YMMV as this statement is game dependent. Of course, with a surprise round as the thief build above, you could liberate them from their primary with your bonus action, and their secondary with your action...action, before they even ready for battle.

See above comment.


Edit (forgot to mention AC): As regards AC...tbh, the rogue's ability to not get hit relies on stealth and simply not being a target more than any AC score itself. Hence, hiding as a bonus action.

A level 2 rogue can already hide as a bonus action.

[krugaan]

I would advise against. You've got a limited amount of actions in your economy, and you're taking one subclass (battlemaster) which makes good use of the action economy and adds it another class (rogue, but also thief) that is build on vigorous commerce in the action economy.

whoa, hold the phone, doesn't that make it... a good fit? I played a battle 3 / swash 5 in a one shot and it does loads of damage while being *fairly* tanky.

I admit I wasn't using uncanny dodge because every reaction was another sneak attack with sentinel, or riposte.

[MrFahrenheit]

How do you have disadvantage in melee?

We may be having a disconnect here: The idea is to use a melee weapon in one hand while making use of fast hands with a free hand; only switch to ranged once you've relieved the bad guys of their weaponry.

If the dice are in your favor, then in one round you can sleight of hand the holstered backup (bonus action), disarm the main weapon (attack action), interact with object to kick it away (free action) before repositioning yourself (move action). The only question that's truly DM dependent is whether you can pocket the sleight of handed weapon first as part of that bonus action. If your DM rules yes, then you can actually pick up the disarmed main weapon rather than have to worry about kicking it X amount of squares.

All subclasses in 5e are either situationally or quantitatively limited. Frankly speaking to what makes 5e so balanced IMO.

Let's compare fast hands and assassination: In the above case, fast hands depends on an enemy using weaponry (but that's not to say there aren't other fast hands uses). Assassination is situational too: if you don't get a surprise round, you can't use the auto crit, and if you got crap initiative (unlikely but possible) or it's after round one, you don't get advantage on attack rolls. Neither is better or worse than the other; they're apples and oranges - one's a damage dealer, the other is a control mechanism.

Separately, the battlemaster maneuvers are quantitatively limited: you can use them at any combat situation as you please, but you're limited by number of uses.

[JeenLeen]

I currently have Int 9, but my DM is letting me drop it by 1 to raise another stat by 1. I'll choose which depending on how I want to multiclass.
My stats are:
Str 10 / Dex 16 / Con 16/ Int 9 / Wis 12 / Cha 12

Rogue looks subpar after getting Uncanny Dodge, so that's why I plan for 5 levels of it. I can see sticking with rogue until level 5 then multiclassing out.
The Hide option to avoid being hit doesn't help me a lot because, as a 3-party team, I feel like I need to help out in melee and take some attention from the other PCs.

Thanks for the advice. I'm not sure what I'll do, but this helps me process some points.

[JellyPooga]

Rogue looks subpar after getting Uncanny Dodge, so that's why I plan for 5 levels of it.

:smalleek: Really!?!

Assuming a max level of 10, there's Expertise in a further two skills, Evasion, an additional ASI (over and above what you'd get by MCing) and an Archtype Ability. That's what you're missing out on by ditching Rogue after 5th. Not to mention an additional 2d6 Sneak Attack.

If you go Arcane Trickster, you also miss out on 2nd level spells (assuming you don't MC to a spellcasting class) by bailing at 5th (also, the 9th level AT ability is pure awesomesauce).

That's assuming the game doesn't actually progress beyond 10th level.

I'm not saying MCing is a bad idea; I'm a massive advocate of it normally, but I wouldn't be so hasty to abandon single classing because "it looks subpar". I advise taking a second glance at what you're giving up compared with what you stand to gain.

Also, you don't appear to have the best stat array for multiclassing. Full-Martials (Fighter, Barbarian) are right out, as is Paladin; you don't have the Strength. Full-casters also look like patently bad ideas; you might just about qualify for Cleric, Druid, Bard or Warlock, but your spellcasting is going to be second rate at best. You'll just about hit 3rd level spells at 10th level (when a true, full caster is on the cusp of 6th level spells) and your attack/save DC will be comparatively awful.

With those stats, I highly recommend sticking to Rogue.

[MrFahrenheit]

Why do you feel the need for melee? You don't have a tank in the party?

If you go thief, you wouldn't have to stay melee. You could run in, stab, swipe, run out (risk the AoO since it's negligible damage after swiping), then have seriously handicapped team bad guy before switching to ranged and using cunning action.

[bid]

I'm playing a rogue and about to hit level 3. I've been annoyed at my relatively low AC -- I have 16 Dex and don't plan to increase it since I want feats instead -- so I'm considering multiclassing.

Just dip fighter 1 for defense style and get expertise, evasion and your second feat by level 9. Using medium is only another +1 AC.

If you like twin BB cheese, go draconic sorcerer for +1 AC. Works great with swashbuckler.

Cleric is not much better than rogue 6, unless you want expertise with your Int8. Using a shield makes SA less likely.

Ranger won't shine before extra attack.

[JellyPooga]

Just dip fighter 1

"Just a dip" is actually a fairly intensive investment. He'd have to take +2 Str at 4th and put his freebie point from dropping Int to 8 into Str as well...and even then he's only rocking 13 Str, so can' use it for anything useful except qualifying for the multiclass. I wouldn't advise it.

Wherever he MC's his stats aren't great for it. The best defensive options simply aren't available to him without significant investment that would probably be better spent otherwise.

Even within the Rogue Class, he's fairly limited by that array. Swashbuckler and Assassin both like a better Charisma than he's got and Arcane Trickster ideally wants a better Int. It's not to say he can't use them at all; he just won't be getting the most out of them.

[bid]

"Just a dip" is actually a fairly intensive investment. He'd have to take +2 Str at 4th and put his freebie point from dropping Int to 8 into Str as well...and even then he's only rocking 13 Str, so can' use it for anything useful except qualifying for the multiclass. I wouldn't advise it.
WHAT?!

Did you just do a brain fart, or do you truly believe that?

[Rysto]

"Just a dip" is actually a fairly intensive investment. He'd have to take +2 Str at 4th and put his freebie point from dropping Int to 8 into Str as well...and even then he's only rocking 13 Str, so can' use it for anything useful except qualifying for the multiclass. I wouldn't advise it.

You can multiclass into fighter with Dex 13.

[djreynolds]

A dip in fighter, which is fine with a 13 in dex, Battlemaster is great, precision, riposte, are all great options. Another option is the UA scout archetype, check it out very cool.

But I would max out dex, this will max it easier to land your sneak attack every round. And that is your job as the rogue, landing that powerful sneak attack.

I would look into 5 fighter/5 rogue. You will have 2 attacks and possibly an off hand strike, you will have 3d6 SA instead of 5d6. Not shabby, yes you will miss out on an ASI for fighter at 6th level, and expertise at rogue 6th level. But in return you will have the ability to don a shield and still have 2 attacks, you can grab a style, I recommend either archery style or duel weapon

And if your campaign goes to 12, then go 6/6.

[JellyPooga]

You can multiclass into fighter with Dex 13.

Did you just do a brain fart?

Apparently I did! :smalltongue: Just blame it on my old-school mind-set; silly me thinking Fighters need Strength! :smallwink:

Yeah, Fighter is a solid MC in that case, if you're looking for that little bit more AC. It's not shabby for the offensive output either. I still think Paladin would be better, defensively, if his stats allowed it (which they definitely don't!) and I stand by my statement that MCing to other Classes is probably not that great due to lack of relevant stats or not providing much in the way of defence (e.g. Ranger offers very little in that department).

[Gtdead]

First you should consider rogue 6 instead of 5. He gets an extra ASI.
Second I don't think that Medium Armor is worth it without Medium Armor Master. Your best bet is Breastplate, that will boost your defense by 1. With MAM you can get half plate and plus one dex, pumping it to +3. With defense style from fighter/ranger it's a total of +4 with the possibility of carrying a shield. This is better than dipping a caster for shield imo.

I think that Ranger+MAM is the best you can do if you are so concerned about AC. You will get your extra languages, colossus slayer and mark that will help with your sneak attack progression. Your playstyle will remain largely the same. It's a bit unorthodox, but it will work.

Without MAM, I'd go for wizard. Both shield and absorb, ritual casting. But since you didn't list it, sorc is probably the next best thing.

Edit: Got confused, rogue 6 doesn't give extra ASI.

[Specter]

The way I see it, there are only two good paths:

- One level of fighter gets you Defense, shields and medium armor. Effectively, that gives you 19AC.
- Stick with rogue for Arcane Trickster and pick up Shield, and use all your slots to try to prevent blows. At level 5, Uncanny Dodge is better for those crits/high rolls.

Anything else seems lackluster or takes too long.

[bid]

First you should consider rogue 6 instead of 5. He gets an extra ASI.
Rogue 10, fighter 6.

[Gtdead]

Rogue 10, fighter 6.

Right, thanks for catching that.