From Medium to Demonbinder; A reskinning discussion.

[Xuldarinar]

I wanted to pose this; How does one approach reskinning (be it purely flavor or it be more of a matter of an archetype like the Kami Medium) the medium class to make it look and feel like the Demonbinder (Drow of the Underdark).

[Arutema]

I wanted to pose this; How does one approach reskinning (be it purely flavor or it be more of a matter of an archetype like the Kami Medium) the medium class to make it look and feel like the Demonbinder (Drow of the Underdark).

The default medium channels spirits from locations, and it'd be hard to always find a location with demonic influence in many places.

So let's look at the relic channeler archetype. The nature of the relics are deliberately left vague. Perhaps your relics are the teeth, horns, bones, and or other preserved pieces of various demon's bodies. By communing with a specific relic, you allow that demon to possess you.

Also, I now totally hope for a demonbinder medium in Horror Adventures.

[Xuldarinar]

The default medium channels spirits from locations, and it'd be hard to always find a location with demonic influence in many places.

So let's look at the relic channeler archetype. The nature of the relics are deliberately left vague. Perhaps your relics are the teeth, horns, bones, and or other preserved pieces of various demon's bodies. By communing with a specific relic, you allow that demon to possess you.

Also, I now totally hope for a demonbinder medium in Horror Adventures.


I was initially looking at a different archetype, the Kami Medium, but that is a rather good suggestion. Im rather on the fence between them.


On a side note; With archetypes, no more than one thing can alter the same class feature. The relic channeler alone has two class features that alter spirits...

[Arutema]

I was initially looking at a different archetype, the Kami Medium, but that is a rather good suggestion. Im rather on the fence between them.


On a side note; With archetypes, no more than one thing can alter the same class feature. The relic channeler alone has two class features that alter spirits...

No more than one archetype can alter or replace the same class feature. I think all medium archetypes alter spirits, thus none of them stack.

[Florian]

Correct me if I´m misremembering here, but the Demonbinder was based on the Warlock class and gained different alterations based on bound demon, like Marilith and 8 arms?

In this case, the actual Medium class framework needs no changes. Rather, it needs 6 new "Pacts" to replace the original spirits with, that more closely reflect the personality of the demon instead of replicating some class powers. Legendary Spirits are an already existing example on how that can look.

Edit and afterthought: The question will rather be: Which 6 demons to pick and how to alter the existing spirits? Making it a "broad" class feature and coming up with new abilities with each and every future demonic possession seems a bit excessive and overall game-breaking.

[Xuldarinar]

Correct me if I´m misremembering here, but the Demonbinder was based on the Warlock class and gained different alterations based on bound demon, like Marilith and 8 arms?

In this case, the actual Medium class framework needs no changes. Rather, it needs 6 new "Pacts" to replace the original spirits with, that more closely reflect the personality of the demon instead of replicating some class powers. Legendary Spirits are an already existing example on how that can look.

Edit and afterthought: The question will rather be: Which 6 demons to pick and how to alter the existing spirits? Making it a "broad" class feature and coming up with new abilities with each and every future demonic possession seems a bit excessive and overall game-breaking.

That is exactly that class, and thats actually a sound approach. If we want to fill niches, here are some ideas off the top of my head, and keeping to the list available to Demonbinders;

(Spirit=Comparable Demon {Justification})

Archmage= Glabrezu {Adept in magic, and often ones to use it to tempt mortals}
Champion= Marilith {Powerful melee combatants, and certainly ones to have kill at arms}
Guardian= Nalfeshnee {Between their size, resilience, and the fact I've crossed all others out but Dretch and Vrock..}
Hierophant= Balor {Balor are just one step short of being demigods, so I think channeling the aspect of one would make sense as a gateway to divine magic}
Marshal= Succubus {Charismatic and able to influence others}
Trickster= Babau {They inherently possess sneak attack}

But one could certainly change the order or substitute in different demons.

[Vhaidara]

That is exactly that class, and thats actually a sound approach. If we want to fill niches, here are some ideas off the top of my head, and keeping to the list available to Demonbinders;

(Spirit=Comparable Demon {Justification})

Archmage= Glabrezu {Adept in magic, and often ones to use it to tempt mortals}
Champion= Marilith {Powerful melee combatants, and certainly ones to have kill at arms}
Guardian= Nalfeshnee {Between their size, resilience, and the fact I've crossed all others out but Dretch and Vrock..}
Hierophant= Balor {Balor are just one step short of being demigods, so I think channeling the aspect of one would make sense as a gateway to divine magic}
Marshal= Succubus {Charismatic and able to influence others}
Trickster= Babau {They inherently possess sneak attack}

But one could certainly change the order or substitute in different demons.


Balors are a fair shot from demigods. IIRC, between them and demigods are both nascent and full Demon Lords. Also, heirophant isn't about BEING a god, it's about serving a god.

I'd be more inclined to run Heirophant off of lilitu, but it seems PF changed them. IIRC, the 3.5 version of the demon was basically a succubus who specialized in infiltrating religious organizations and corrupting them from within.

[Xuldarinar]

Balors are a fair shot from demigods. IIRC, between them and demigods are both nascent and full Demon Lords. Also, heirophant isn't about BEING a god, it's about serving a god.

Well, actually Balor Lords (unless I am mistaken) are roughly equivalent to nascent demon lords. They hold command over portions of abyssal realms (up to half of a realm), and are sufficient patrons for ones seeking to in life become demons.

I know that Heirophant isn't a matter of being a god, but it is a matter of channeling divine magic. From the list of the demons that demonbinders had available to them, it simply made the most sense to me for it to be them. If we step outside of that, then we have far more options. I'd be tempted to suggest Seraptis demons, for example.



I'd be more inclined to run Heirophant off of lilitu, but it seems PF changed them. IIRC, the 3.5 version of the demon was basically a succubus who specialized in infiltrating religious organizations and corrupting them from within.

PF is prone to changing things in some way. That isn't a bad suggestion though. I remember them, as they were.

[Florian]

Balor is actually the cream of the crop when it comes to "regular" Demons, that is, looking at what can actually directly hatch from Larvae.

They´re still very much below "evolved" forms that actually acquired power, like Balor Lords, Mythic Balor, Nascent Demon Lords...

As for the changes, in PF, especially Golarion, Demon forms are based on "sin". That´s pretty important because the other races are based on "cause of death" and "function".

I think that is a good decision, as back in 3.5, a lot of "fiends" had no clear distinction why they actually where part of certain races.

Lilitus are a good example here. What concrete sin does corrupting a religion organization exemplify? Lust? Already covered. Greed? Dito.

So I think the best way is to look at the Thassilonian sins, map them to the spirits and pick associated demons based on that.

[Xuldarinar]

Balor is actually the cream of the crop when it comes to "regular" Demons, that is, looking at what can actually directly hatch from Larvae.

They´re still very much below "evolved" forms that actually acquired power, like Balor Lords, Mythic Balor, Nascent Demon Lords...

As for the changes, in PF, especially Golarion, Demon forms are based on "sin". That´s pretty important because the other races are based on "cause of death" and "function".

I think that is a good decision, as back in 3.5, a lot of "fiends" had no clear distinction why they actually where part of certain races.

Lilitus are a good example here. What concrete sin does corrupting a religion organization exemplify? Lust? Already covered. Greed? Dito.

So I think the best way is to look at the Thassilonian sins, map them to the spirits and pick associated demons based on that.


I think thats actually not a bad approach to take. 7 sins, 6 spirits.. There is the question then lies in not only which would be most associated with which, but which sin is left out..

I'll just take a shot here;

Archmage= Envy (Invidiak)
Champion= Wrath (Vrock)
Guardian= Gluttony (Nabasus)
Hierophant= Greed (Nalfeshnee)
Marshal= Lust (Succubus)
Trickster= Pride (Marilith)

[Vhaidara]

I'd swap Archmage and Trickster there. Who is prouder than a high powered wizard?