Eberron Q&A Thread: By Popular Demand [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Fable Wright

2016-05-28, 07:56 AM

Is there an actual benefit to binding willing elementals compared to unwilling ones, beyond the membership of that one organization (and I think the associated PrC)?

Mechanically, there is no real benefit, except perhaps an easier time in the binding process. Primarily, the difference is roleplay-oriented, with a number of gnomes having second thoughts about enslaving sentient creatures, as opposed to hiring them as servants. However, should you wish to include or suggest such elements in your game that the Power of Purity is onto something, you might have a bonus on Charisma checks, or even eschew them altogether when attempting to control a vehicle powered by a willing elemental. Such a thing may be a plot point that threatens the House Lyrandar monopoly, though there are no official mechanics to support this.

Have there ever been any incidences of someone binding and Elemental into something other than a Khyber Dragonshard?

It is unclear. On the one hand, Trap the Soul has almost certainly been used at some point to trap and contain an elemental, and such a stone would not need to be a Khyber Dragonshard. The Genius Locus spell (C. Mage) could be argued to bind an elemental to a location. That's probably not what you're referring to, though.

In terms of lore, much depends on your DM, but in Keith Baker's Eberron you most likely would not be harness the power of an Elemental bound to an object other than a Khyber Dragonshard for the purposes of a Magic Item. He has stated in his blogs that more or less every magic item is powered by one type of Dragonshard. Common items like Wands, Schemas, or similar are powered by Eberron Dragonshards in conjunction with other magical materials. When he was running 4e games, Residuum, the fundamental component of magic items and rituals, was made of powdered Eberron Dragonshards.

Given the magic item economy's complete dependence on Dragonshards to function, it seems highly unlikely that an elemental imprisoned in anything but a Khyber Dragonshard would be able to power any kind of simple item, much less an Airship. If such a thing were to occur, however, House Tharashk would put a great deal of effort into keeping it quiet or destroying such means. An alternate power source to Dragonshards would hurt their near-monopoly quite a lot, now wouldn't it?

only thing that warlock has solid damage choices artificer has noting unless you say they cast spells like wizard so they can be usefull in combat

Artificers do have access to a few Standard Action Infusions, but their power primarily occurs when they can buff up before the start of a fight, spend an Action Point to infuse an item in combat, or use one of the many, many, many magic items and constructs they have created for themselves to allow them to contribute in combat.

khadgar567

2016-05-28, 08:05 AM

Artificers do have access to a few Standard Action Infusions, but their power primarily occurs when they can buff up before the start of a fight, spend an Action Point to infuse an item in combat, or use one of the many, many, many magic items and constructs they have created for themselves to allow them to contribute in combat.

still you need whole month to prepare one room worth of stuff while its god damned wiki says they are collage graduates of academies so in a universe were higher education means you must know how to cast fing fireball like god wizard or egomaniac sorcerer only thing difference between wizard and artificer one hits library to memorize some tomes while artificer heads local black smith to cope with his boredom

Fable Wright

2016-05-28, 08:37 AM

still you need whole month to prepare one room worth of stuff while its god damned wiki says they are collage graduates of academies so in a universe were higher education means you must know how to cast fing fireball like god wizard or egomaniac sorcerer only thing difference between wizard and artificer one hits library to memorize some tomes while artificer heads local black smith to cope with his boredom

This belays a fundamental misunderstanding of the setting.

The vast majority of sages, professors, and other such academics are NPC Experts, occasionally Commoners or Aristocrats. They know a lot about magic, but many have never learned how to cast it, or even had the aptitude. Some particularly talented individuals become Magewrights, able to learn minor magical talents to augment their craft or their knowledges.

Only the very cream of the crop, the dedicated scholars who come from the Dragonmark Houses raised from birth to study their field, or the prodigies whose sheer skill gets them past entry barrier after entry barrier, or the people blessed from birth by a Draconic Prophesy can ever hope to attain a class like Wizard or Artificer. In this universe, they are equivalent to students who are writing formal research papers in their spare time during their undergraduate years, and the difference between the Wizard and the Artificer is quite profound.

Artificers don't head to the local blacksmith to cope with boredom. They're skilled enough that they can distill months-long crafting processes into a single minute, creating a temporary wand or infusion on a weapon, or even compress that process into six seconds in a pinch, and the effects of their infusions can last for hours or a whole adventuring day. If the Artificer wants to cast a new spell, they don't need to spend hundreds of gold and hours meticulously scribing down a formula into a vulnerable spellbook. They just take a minute to figure out how the spell goes and use a focus to pull off the effect effortlessly.

Both are incredibly powerful with foresight, and both are far beyond what your average academic could aspire to being. The difference is that the Wizard is essentially batman, with a bunch of gadgets he can pull out at a given moment to ridiculous effect, while the Artificer is Tony Stark, who's amazing at improvising with what he has around, hacking with his systems for a temporary boost, and who has built a truly impressive arsenal over time that he can bring completely to bear if the situation calls for it. Neither is strictly better, and neither is a joking matter in either of their universes.

Zombimode

2016-05-28, 08:45 AM

in a universe were higher education means you must know how to cast fing fireball like god wizard or egomaniac sorcerer

Uhm, this is not how things are in Eberron. Like, at all. This is a setting were people with ONE level in sorcerer can have titles like "chief magical adviser", and academics encompass much more then arcane magic.

Open your ECS page 244:

Typical Morgrave Professor: dwarf expert 4

khadgar567

2016-05-28, 09:01 AM

Uhm, this is not how things are in Eberron. Like, at all. This is a setting were people with ONE level in sorcerer can have titles like "chief magical adviser", and academics encompass much more then arcane magic.

Open your ECS page 244:
still if you can go university this means you are capable of doing more than average joe can do so you can probably already know how to cast fireball already so artificer(tony stark) can cast spells like bruce wayne

Regitnui

2016-05-28, 09:04 AM

*cracks knuckles*

Despite the high presence of magic in Eberron, it's a low PC area; most people are NPC classes (3.5) or a gathering of stats (4e & 5e). Maybe 1 in 100 people have the ability to proceed as a Fighter instead of a Warrior, or Cleric instead of Adept. Of those, maybe another 1 in 50 progresses past level 5. Warlords of Karrnath, the most militarily-inclined of the Five Nations and home to Rekkenmark Academy, are unlikely to ever top Fighter 10. You, as a PC, have the potential to be the new equivalent of Galifar or Vvaraak. Your name and deeds will set a tone for the new age. At level 20, you are a force of nature by the average person's standards. If you hit level 30, you stand on par with the oldest living dragons of Argonessen.

So yeah, you're the heroes.

Malimar

2016-05-28, 10:49 AM

Let's talk names and House affiliations!

Are there any sections of any of the books that talk specifically about the names and naming system of Khorvaire?

I gather that if you're a member of a Dragonmarked house, you get the d' prefix (d'Lyrandar, d'Cannith, etc), and if you're a member of a noble house, you get the ir' prefix (ir'Wynarn, ir'Zarna, etc). Are there any other prefixes, or just those two?

Also, I vaguely recall reading something on the forum recently about how members of Dragonmarked houses use special different names when they're talking to somebody within their House vs members of the general public, and there are situations where you use the d' prefix vs where you don't use the prefix, but I don't remember the details. Can you elaborate on this?

What general social class do the Dragonmarked Houses fall into? Are they higher than regular artisans and merchants and the like but lower than proper nobility? And how scandalous is it for somebody to marry outside their social class?

Is inheritance of names patrilineal like in most Western Earth cultures, or is it something else? How about inheritance of House affiliation -- can you inherit affiliation with a House from your mother even if you don't inherit the name?

RedMage125

2016-05-28, 11:28 AM

Let's talk names and House affiliations!

Are there any sections of any of the books that talk specifically about the names and naming system of Khorvaire?
Yes, the book "Dragonmarked". Also, Keith baker has expounded on this in some Dargonshard articles.

I gather that if you're a member of a Dragonmarked house, you get the d' prefix (d'Lyrandar, d'Cannith, etc), and if you're a member of a noble house, you get the ir' prefix (ir'Wynarn, ir'Zarna, etc). Are there any other prefixes, or just those two?
Partially correct.

A member of a Dragonmarked House may also just use their family name (each House contains several families that have the potential to carry the dragonmark). They can add the "d'" prefix to their family name, use d'[House], or just use their family/clan name.

The 3 leaders of House Tharashk (comprising the families of Velderen, Aashta, and Torrn) are Daric d'Velderen, Khundar'aashta, and Maagrim Torrn d'Tharashk.

A foundling who manifests a True Dragonmark-say, some human who wasn't previously known to the family who manifests the Mark of Making-may be adopted into the House and allowed to use the d'Cannith name. Investigation would certainly be done into said individual's ancestry, but the House would usually want to claim someone with a dragonmark. The "d'" prefix sometimes indicates that the person actually HAS a dragonmark.

Also, I vaguely recall reading something on the forum recently about how members of Dragonmarked houses use special different names when they're talking to somebody within their House vs members of the general public, and there are situations where you use the d' prefix vs where you don't use the prefix, but I don't remember the details. Can you elaborate on this?
Traditions like this sometimes vary by House. I would read the Dragonmarked book. Seriously, the whole book. It's actually a very interesting read.

What general social class do the Dragonmarked Houses fall into? Are they higher than regular artisans and merchants and the like but lower than proper nobility? And how scandalous is it for somebody to marry outside their social class?
The leaders and ambassadors of the House are comparable in station to nobility (especially the Viceroy of the House) as far as respect they are accorded. Some members are equivalent to merchants, but still usually above non-House ones. For example, a House Jorasco enclave might employ halflings or even humans with a talent for healing. But even if they employ a non-Jorasco level 5 Adept, the level 2 Expert d'Jorasco family member still runs the enclave.

The Korth Edicts guaranteed that the Galifar Kings would protect the Houses economic strength, and in exchange, they accepted limits on their political power. House members may not own land (House Enclaves being a special exception), and there are limits to the size of standing armed forces they may have (House Deneith gets a major pass on this).

Scandal for "marrying outside one's class" is as fairly normal for the assumed Medieval/Rennaissance-ish time period of Eberron. But the Houses kind of defy classification, as they exist outside the normal "crown-noble-merchant-peasant" ladder, instead living on a parallel one. A Cannith smith who, for example, wanted to marry a talented local blacksmith for love would be totally acceptable to both parties (if the blacksmith is really good, however, he may have been trained in a Cannith facility, even if he is a commmoner). Sometimes talented people, or those who curry favor with the House, are invited to join the House by marriage (usually an arranged marriage). For nobility, however, in order to keep the Korth Edicts, a House member must disavow their family to marry a noble, or vis-versa. The Queen of Aundair, for example, is married to a scion of House Vadalis, who forsook his family and took her name. How much he actually "forsook" his family ties, however, is a good question, as the marriage is viewed by some to be very political.

Is inheritance of names patrilineal like in most Western Earth cultures, or is it something else? How about inheritance of House affiliation -- can you inherit affiliation with a House from your mother even if you don't inherit the name?
Yes. If you can prove a blood tie to a member of the House, you are a part of the House. Also, like I said before, if you manifest a True Dragonmark, the House will likely want to recruit you (see "Foundlings" i Chapter 1 of the Dragonmarked book), even if you don't know how you are related to the House. The mark you manifest is proof that you are part of their House.

Malimar

2016-05-28, 11:39 AM

[excellent stuff]

Splendid, this is all useful! Thanks!

Q. Flestrin

2016-05-28, 11:43 AM

Edit: Whoops, I got ninja'd. Curse RedMage's fast-typing fingers! :smalltongue:

Fable Wright

2016-05-28, 11:46 AM

Following up on RedMage125:

Also, I vaguely recall reading something on the forum recently about how members of Dragonmarked houses use special different names when they're talking to somebody within their House vs members of the general public, and there are situations where you use the d' prefix vs where you don't use the prefix, but I don't remember the details. Can you elaborate on this?

In each of the Dragonmark Houses, there are a number of family lines that bear their house Dragonmark. For example, there's the Vown family in Cannith, the Paelion line (or remnants thereof) in House Phiarlan, and so on. When introducing one house member to another, they introduce each other with their family names—d'Vown, as opposed to d'Cannith, for example—to both be more specific and to inform each other of how they stand in intra-house politicking.

What general social class do the Dragonmarked Houses fall into? Are they higher than regular artisans and merchants and the like but lower than proper nobility? And how scandalous is it for somebody to marry outside their social class?

Think the Rockefellers in the 1960s-1980s. They are big money, old money type families that get a lot of respect everywhere they go. They've got more allowance than some experts make in a year, and the right word to the wrong person can cost most people their jobs. Whether they're higher or lower than nobility is a matter of some debate; if your CEO's niece and Prince William were going to be staying at your apartment for a weekend, which would you be more panicked about? There's a very good reason that the Treaty of Wroat forbids one from being both a member of the Families and a member of the nobility.

As for how scandalous it is to marry around, the answer depends on which house and how powerful your Dragonmark is. House Tharashk is remarkably open about its marriage policy, and encourages members to marry outside the family. This both brings money into the house, and it feeds their belief that hybrids tend to do better than purebreds. On the other hand, House Valadis arranges all of its marriages very carefully. Marrying without the patriarch's permission in that case would be extremely scandalous.

For most other houses, it depends on the strength of your dragonmark. The marriage of two Greater marks usually means that their children will tend to manifest something more impressive than Least dragonmarks; if you're important to the house or have a Greater or Siberys mark, your marriage will probably be arranged. If you're markless or have a least Mark, there might be some head wagging, but it's not too big a deal.

Prime32

2016-05-28, 12:38 PM

Also, I vaguely recall reading something on the forum recently about how members of Dragonmarked houses use special different names when they're talking to somebody within their House vs members of the general public, and there are situations where you use the d' prefix vs where you don't use the prefix, but I don't remember the details. Can you elaborate on this?This has already been answered, but IIRC it's mentioned that for house Tharashk in particular...

If you're John of the Smith family of House Tharashk, you'd typically introduce yourself as "John Smith" to house members, as "John d'Tharashk" to outsiders, and as "John Smith d'Tharashk" when extreme formality is required (such as an audience with a king).

Regitnui

2016-05-28, 03:15 PM

Also, the Houses forbid intermarrying, to the point where it's grounds for excoriation. That used to mean that your dragonmark was removed from your body (from a few square centimetres of skin for least excoriates to most of your torso skin for siberys) and you were expelled. Nowadays, it's just expulsion. The reason? Just like two lesser-marked dragonmarked could have a greater-marked child, mixing dragonmark bloodlines (Medani & Lyrandar, for example) is the only known guaranteed way to produce a mixed or aberrant mark. The two Houses of Shadow can get away with this, due to sharing the same dragonmark, but don't for other reasons.

The War of the Mark before Galifar led to the eradication of aberrant marks (mostly), but lately more aberrants have been appearing. The Sharn crime Syndicate House Tarkanan actively recruits aberrant or mixed dragonmarks, and is thus under heavy surveillance by the Twelve.

And no, the Mark of Death does not have official modern nomenclature. Nobody's going to refer to "Erandis d'Vol". It never lasted long enough to become a Dragonmarked House. However, it is not an aberrant mark; being the thirteenth True Dragonmark, and so would be accepted by the Twelve over the mockingly-named House Tarkanan. If your game involves the resurgence of the Mark of Death, the Twelve may be an ally against the Chamber and Aerenal.

Fable Wright

2016-05-31, 11:02 AM

This dried up quickly. Huh.

Jowgen

2016-05-31, 11:33 AM

I wouldn't write it off just yet, Afro's planar thread regularly experiences dry spills, so I think it's just part of being a Q&A thread?

Faily

2016-05-31, 12:05 PM

khadgar567

2016-05-31, 12:10 PM

I seem to recall that it is illegal to create new Warforged in Eberron?

If that's the case, does that mean all Warforgeds currently are from the time before that was made illegal, or are there still creation of Warforgeds going on?

knowledge dc 5 says there is a still some cannith bastards controling some of the forge warfored forges

Fable Wright

2016-05-31, 12:56 PM

I seem to recall that it is illegal to create new Warforged in Eberron?

If that's the case, does that mean all Warforgeds currently are from the time before that was made illegal, or are there still creation of Warforgeds going on?

This was a hotly contested issue at the Treaty of Thronehold. In the end, it was settled that all Warforged were free-willed and allowed to become members of the Five Nations that had commissioned them, and that every Genesis Forge was to be shut down on Khorvaire. Their continued production in one of the nations that had a Genesis forge could be claiming to make farmers or other civilians, but the fact that they could be easily weaponized and having a genesis forge within a nation's borders represented a huge advantage over each of the other nations.

Regardless, existing Warforged are not illegal, even if they were made in an illegal genesis forge. They're just ordinary citizens. On the other hand, operation of a genesis forge on Khorvaire is a capital crime for the one who created the 'forged. Mind you, a genesis forge on Xen'drik is not illegal, and something Merrix d'Cannith is very interested in setting up.

knowledge dc 5 says there is a still some cannith bastards controling some of the forge warfored forges

A DC 20 or 25 Knowledge: Local check might state that there are unproven rumors that Merrix d'Cannith has a secret genesis forge hidden away, but no one has any proof one way or the other. Mind you, there are also rumors that the Q'barra lizardfolk are secretly mind controllers who took over the leaders of the Five Nations when they met for the Treaty of Thronehold, and who are exerting constant subliminal influence over the populace with enchanted Eberron Dragonshards they sell to House Tharashk, so take such rumors with a grain of salt.

khadgar567

2016-05-31, 01:14 PM

This was a hotly contested issue at the Treaty of Thronehold. In the end, it was settled that all Warforged were free-willed and allowed to become members of the Five Nations that had commissioned them, and that every Genesis Forge was to be shut down on Khorvaire. Their continued production in one of the nations that had a Genesis forge could be claiming to make farmers or other civilians, but the fact that they could be easily weaponized and having a genesis forge within a nation's borders represented a huge advantage over each of the other nations.

Regardless, existing Warforged are not illegal, even if they were made in an illegal genesis forge. They're just ordinary citizens. On the other hand, operation of a genesis forge on Khorvaire is a capital crime for the one who created the 'forged. Mind you, a genesis forge on Xen'drik is not illegal, and something Merrix d'Cannith is very interested in setting up.

A DC 20 or 25 Knowledge: Local check might state that there are unproven rumors that Merrix d'Cannith has a secret genesis forge hidden away, but no one has any proof one way or the other. Mind you, there are also rumors that the Q'barra lizardfolk are secretly mind controllers who took over the leaders of the Five Nations when they met for the Treaty of Thronehold, and who are exerting constant subliminal influence over the populace with enchanted Eberron Dragonshards they sell to House Tharashk, so take such rumors with a grain of salt.

know thats a adventure path material because if treaty of throne hold reveals to be made by mind controlled people this makes last war look like child's play justdrop a new dragon mark with mind control powers and watch the chaos

Prime32

2016-05-31, 01:23 PM

I seem to recall that it is illegal to create new Warforged in Eberron?

If that's the case, does that mean all Warforgeds currently are from the time before that was made illegal, or are there still creation of Warforgeds going on?The Last War only ended two years ago. It hasn't been illegal for long.
Prior to that, warforged had been in steady production for over 30 years.

Regardless, existing Warforged are not illegal, even if they were made in an illegal genesis forge. They're just ordinary citizens. On the other hand, operation of a genesis forge on Khorvaire is a capital crime for the one who created the 'forged. Mind you, a genesis forge on Xen'drik is not illegal, and something Merrix d'Cannith is very interested in setting up.Creation forge. "The Genesis Forge" was just the name of the largest of the forges, located in Cyre.

And there are creation forges on Xen'drik. Or rather, creation forges are reverse-engineered from Xen'drik technology that was used to create non-living constructs (and no one's sure why modern warforged are sentient). Some of them appear to have been servants of the giants (and were often huge in size), while others were used by invading quori as primitive host bodies.

Also, the drow managed to get some of the original forges working, and created a small number of scorpion-shaped warforged in the image of their god. IIRC they're normally either mindless or have low Int scores, but some of them have grown smarter over time.

Anyway, Merrix d'Cannith secretly operates an illegal creation forge in Sharn and is still churning out warforged in small numbers, but this isn't public knowledge. It's implied that he just dumps most of his creations out on the street with no memory of where they came from.

Cyre had active creation forges when the Day of Mourning happened, so it's widely believed that the Lord of Blades has access to one, if he actually exists. However, it's likely to be damaged, so no one is sure what kind of warforged would step out of it.

ComaVision

2016-05-31, 01:32 PM

Anyone willing to make a timeline of major Eberron events or point me towards one?

Dragolord

2016-05-31, 01:42 PM

I gather that if you're a member of a Dragonmarked house, you get the d' prefix (d'Lyrandar, d'Cannith, etc), and if you're a member of a noble house, you get the ir' prefix (ir'Wynarn, ir'Zarna, etc). Are there any other prefixes, or just those two?
Anyone with a True Dragonmark can call themselves a Lord or Lady, whatever their rank in the House, in addition to the d', unless they have been excoriated. I suppose that they also lose the right if they marry into the nobility, although I couldn't say for sure.

Edit:

Anyone willing to make a timeline of major Eberron events or point me towards one?
http://www.dragon-above.com/index.php?p=features#grandhistory. This is... disturbingly comprehensive. I'm sure that whatever you need is in here, somewhere.

Fable Wright

2016-05-31, 01:47 PM

Anyone willing to make a timeline of major Eberron events or point me towards one?

The Wiki timeline (http://eberron.wikia.com/wiki/Eberron_Timeline) of events is accurate and fairly comprehensive. There's another timeline in the 4e Eberron Campaign Guide that's exceedingly similar, but either works.

Afgncaap5

2016-06-01, 02:30 AM

Mr Adventurer

2016-06-01, 06:59 AM

Is the Ring of Siberys, the glowing ring of astral debris that circumscribes the sky of Eberron, actually mentioned in the Eberron Campaign Setting book?

Fable Wright

2016-06-01, 07:40 AM

Okay, super weird question, and it's possible that no one's gonna know what I'm talking about, but the discussion on royalty and the Houses made it come to mind again: there was a book called The Crimson Talisman. Did the portrayal of House Orien feel... off to anyone? It felt more like an actual noble court (which, given that it was focused more on the family and lineages of the House than the actual business operations might've been appropriate, but still.) From what I've been able to gather, it was a really early book, so I could understand the tone of it feeling strange, but I also couldn't think of anything from the actual game books that really contradicts the portrayal.

"Is it just me, or was that one obscure book weird?" might not be the best question for a Q&A in a gaming board, but the topic brought it up in my head.

There is a reason they are referred to as dragonmarked houses. There are a great deal of similarities to actual noble houses, from the ostentatious wealth that's kept within the family, intra-house politics on anything ranging from where or if to place Lightning Rails to arranged marriages to enclave policies, careful management of political alliances, and more. They're not solely about profits; that's the job of the Aurum. This noble side is by no means something that adventurers are likely to see in actual gameplay or backstory, but there is likely a side like this to House Orien.

However, you're talking about a book that contains a half-elf with the Mark of Passage... as the main character.

For the love of Siberys, do not take anything from that book's portrayal to heart. I did not try to get through this novel, but it takes lore as more of a vague suggestion, and I heartily recommend ignoring its contents in favor of running House Orien how you want to.

Is the Ring of Siberys, the glowing ring of astral debris that circumscribes the sky of Eberron, actually mentioned in the Eberron Campaign Setting book?

Check page 259 when the book discusses the origin of Siberys shards, page 223 when it describes the reason people adventure to Xen'drik, page 129 describing daily life in Eberron, page 92 describing the origins of Dragonshards (again), and many other locations within the book.

TheBrassDuke

2016-06-01, 08:44 AM

knowledge dc 5 says there is a still some cannith bastards controling some of the forge warfored forges

Hey, we're not all bad, here in House Cannith! ;3

Gildedragon

2016-06-01, 09:11 AM

knowledge dc 5 says there is a still some cannith bastards controling some of the forge warfored forges

And the LoB, Lord Slapchop, is rumored to have one too

khadgar567

2016-06-01, 10:38 AM

Hey, we're not all bad, here in House Cannith! ;3
I dont have a problem with dragon mark I just have problem with pompus egomaniac rulers with int 3 ruling kingdoms like they are some thing

And the LoB, Lord Slapchop, is rumored to have one too
well this is why I use dc 5 on knowledge check

TheBrassDuke

2016-06-01, 11:10 AM

I dont have a problem with dragon mark I just have problem with pompus egomaniac rulers with int 3 ruling kingdoms like they are some thing

House Cannith agreed to close its Creation Forges, albeit reluctantly, because it was an end to the War; afterwards, they would have no legitimate reason for making new Warforged--there was no battle to be fought. The Treaty promised that no more golems would be made, publicly or otherwise, for someone to amass against another. Sure, you've got that pockeT WATch Merrix, but he's still fighting a losing battle.

House Cannith lost their best factories, access to their biggest cash cow, on the Day of Mourning, and after the War will be in great decline until the next. They aren't so bad...anymore.

Zombimode

2016-06-01, 11:35 AM

The Treaty promised that no more golems would be made, publicly or otherwise, for someone to amass against another.

I'm pretty sure the Treaty had nothing to say about golems.

Dragolord

2016-06-01, 11:40 AM

I'm pretty sure the Treaty had nothing to say about golems.
Many people, particularly in Thrane and Karrnath, see Warforged as very convincing golems, actually. The Treaty would have referred to them as such, at first.

TheBrassDuke

2016-06-01, 12:41 PM

I'm pretty sure the Treaty had nothing to say about golems.

A Living Construct is technically classified as a Golem, as it is still an animated construct, but with sentience.

Many people, particularly in Thrane and Karrnath, see Warforged as very convincing golems, actually. The Treaty would have referred to them as such, at first.

Regardless of the Treaty, there are still many who see them as nothing more than mass-produced war golems capable of speech and critical thinking. Theories abound to whether or not Warforged have a soul.

As well, I believe in Five Nations, a few paragraphs in the Thrane section have references to Golems when speaking about Warforged.

Regitnui

2016-06-01, 01:16 PM

Zombimode

2016-06-01, 01:54 PM

A Living Construct is technically classified as a Golem, as it is still an animated construct, but with sentience.

Golems are a true subset of Constructs. Living Constructs as well es Warforged are also true subsets of Construcs.
The intersecting set of Golems and Warforged is empty (as is the intersecting set of Golems and Living Constructs, to my knowledge).

A Golem is the product of a very different construct paradigm then a Warforged. For a Golem the material body by itself does almost nothing for its function, it serves only as the repository for the bound elemental spirit and its supplementary magic.

Contrast a Warforged. While it is clear that there is something more then a warforged's body for it to work and move, its body is anything but incidental to a warforged. Certain parts are important for specific tasks. While a direct mapping of warfoged components and body parts to an organic organism is difficult or even impossible, there ARE similarities. A warforged principle of locomotion is at least in part grounded in its bodily construction. For Golem its the animating elemental spirit all the way.

To call a Warforged a Golem would be an incredible unprecise use of words. Sure, it's a mistake uneducated people would make. But for a highly important document like the Treaty of Thronehold you can expect a certain amount of scrutiny.

Dragolord

2016-06-01, 01:57 PM

Golems and similar constructs had been in use for centuries; though it was somewhat of a Lost Art between the fall of the Giants and the human settlers of Khorvaire*. It took the best minds of House Cannith most of a century to figure out how to make the golem soldiers commissioned by King Jarot into the modern warforged, and the first true humanoid Warforged walked off the production line 33 years ago. This means that even the oldest Warforged is only middle-aged by human standards, and we don't know if Warforged even have a maximum age.

There were a number of other Warforged designed by Cannith and sold; Warforged Titanss were an early model, Warforged Chargers were slow-witted siege versions resembling gorillas, Warfortged Scouts were half-sized (Small) models intended for reconnaissance, Steel Krakens were deployed by Cyre as sea guardians, and may still be along the southern coast somewhere, while Warforged Raptors resembled long-necked, axe-faced dragonflies and were the only warforged capable of flight.

The current debate is whether the humanoid warforged have souls, and if yes, where did these souls come from?

*There's no definitive evidence of the Dhakaani Empire and other Ancient Khorvaire civilizations having golems, nor Sarlonan civilization.

Actually, the original Warforged were made by the Quori, during their war with the Giants, tens of thousands of years before the Last War, as both soldiers and corporeal hosts for Quori spirits, although this second function didn't quite work as intended.

As such, there are persistent rumours and mutterings that the Cannith Artificers used secrets found in the ruins of Xen'drik to make the first modern Warforged, which are borne out by the discovery of ancient Docents, which are fully compatible with modern Warforged. It is even possible that some of the Quorforged still exist, somewhere in the continent's many dark places.

Regitnui

2016-06-01, 03:03 PM

Actually, the original Warforged were made by the Quori, during their war with the Giants, tens of thousands of years before the Last War, as both soldiers and corporeal hosts for Quori spirits, although this second function didn't quite work as intended.

As such, there are persistent rumours and mutterings that the Cannith Artificers used secrets found in the ruins of Xen'drik to make the first modern Warforged, which are borne out by the discovery of ancient Docents, which are fully compatible with modern Warforged. It is even possible that some of the Quorforged still exist, somewhere in the continent's many dark places.

There really is no denying that the quorforged share a certain amount of design with modern warforged, but the main difference is that quorforged were unintelligent and designed to be possessed; they were more like constructs than the modern warforged, which nobody can deny are alive after a fashion. Whatever Cannith did differently, it made a living creature from inanimate materials. A quorforged was an incredibly advanced golem. A warforged is the next step up.

Dragolord

2016-06-01, 03:13 PM

There really is no denying that the quorforged share a certain amount of design with modern warforged, but the main difference is that quorforged were unintelligent and designed to be possessed; they were more like constructs than the modern warforged, which nobody can deny are alive after a fashion. Whatever Cannith did differently, it made a living creature from inanimate materials. A quorforged was an incredibly advanced golem. A warforged is the next step up.

Unless the warforged are, in fact, possessed by Quori, which would explain the source of their souls and sentience. But that's getting into groundless speculation, which is hardly the point of this thread. I concede the point.

TheBrassDuke

2016-06-01, 03:26 PM

Golems are a true subset of Constructs. Living Constructs as well es Warforged are also true subsets of Construcs.
The intersecting set of Golems and Warforged is empty (as is the intersecting set of Golems and Living Constructs, to my knowledge).

A Golem is the product of a very different construct paradigm then a Warforged. For a Golem the material body by itself does almost nothing for its function, it serves only as the repository for the bound elemental spirit and its supplementary magic.

Contrast a Warforged. While it is clear that there is something more then a warforged's body for it to work and move, its body is anything but incidental to a warforged. Certain parts are important for specific tasks. While a direct mapping of warfoged components and body parts to an organic organism is difficult or even impossible, there ARE similarities. A warforged principle of locomotion is at least in part grounded in its bodily construction. For Golem its the animating elemental spirit all the way.

To call a Warforged a Golem would be an incredible unprecise use of words. Sure, it's a mistake uneducated people would make. But for a highly important document like the Treaty of Thronehold you can expect a certain amount of scrutiny.

But as said before--I'm still browsing my books again just to make sure--they have been referred to as Golems, by Keith Baker himself. Not just the in-setting words of ignorant Thranes or Karrns. In writings for-and-describing the setting, Warforged are Living Constructs, as well as Advanced Golems.

Prime32

2016-06-01, 03:27 PM

A Living Construct is [...] still an animated construct, but with sentience.There's more to it than that. There are other Constructs with Int scores, including the older warforged models like Warforged Titans, though they're generally not very bright.

Modern warforged are living constructs because they have living tissue incorporated into their design, which can be affected by spells that target living creatures. The "fibres" visible beneath the outer plating are livewood, a type of tree imported from Aerenal which remains alive after being cut down.

TheBrassDuke

2016-06-01, 03:32 PM

There's more to it than that. There are other Constructs with Int scores, including the older warforged models like Warforged Titans, though they're generally not very bright.

Modern warforged are living constructs because they have living tissue incorporated into their design, which can be affected by spells that target living creatures. The "fibres" visible beneath the outer plating are livewood, a type of tree imported from Aerenal which remains alive after being cut down.

A living construct is a new subtype of construct, a created being given sentience and free will through powerful and complex creation enchantments. Living constructs combine aspects of both constructs and living creatures, as detailed below.

Features: A living construct derives its Hit Dice, base attack bonus progression, saving throws, and skill points from the class it selects.

Traits: A living construct possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature's entry).

Unlike other constructs, a living construct has a Constitution score. A living construct does not gain bonus hit points by size but gains (or loses) bonus hit points through a Constitution bonus (or penalty) as with other living creatures.
Unlike other constructs, a living construct does not have low-light vision or darkvision.
Unlike other constructs, a living construct is not immune to mind-influencing effects.
Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, disease, nausea, fatigue, exhaustion, and energy drain.
A living construct cannot heal damage naturally.
Unlike other constructs, living constructs are subject to critical hits, effects requiring a Fort save, death from massive damage, nonlethal damage, stunning, ability damage, ability drain, and death effects or necromancy effects.
Unlike other constructs, a living construct can use the run action.
Living constructs can be affected by spells that target living creatures as well as by those that target constructs. Damage dealt to a living construct can be healed by a cure light wounds spell or a repair light damage spell, for example, and a living construct is vulnerable to a harm spell. However, spells from the healing subschool provide only half effect to a living construct.
A living construct responds slightly differently from other living creatures when reduced to 0 hit points. A living construct with 0 hit points is disabled, just like a living creature. He can only take a single move action or standard action in each round, but strenuous activity does not risk further injury. When his hit points are less than 0 and greater than -10, a living construct is inert. He is unconscious and helpless, and he cannot perform any actions. However, an inert living construct does not lose additional hit points unless more damage is dealt to him, as with a living creature that is stable.
Can be raised or resurrected.
Does not need to eat, sleep, or breathe, but can still benefit from the effects of consumable spells and magic items such as heroes' feast and potions.
Does not need to sleep, but must rest for 8 hours before preparing spells.

Warforged, like it or not, are still considered Golems. Living Construct/Living Golem. Whatever.

Warforged are named as such because House Cannith designed these golems for the sole purpose of War. They were built as weapons, much like the Karrns reanimated their dead as tools for battle and cheap labor.

Malimar

2016-06-01, 03:38 PM

TheBrassDuke

2016-06-01, 04:00 PM

I don't see the word "golem" anywhere in the quoted material. Are you under the impression that "construct" and "golem" are synonymous?

Forge of War, pages 25 and 33, among a few other locations in the book that don't outright say "golem". I thought it was Five Nations, but I was incorrect.

But no, not in my quoted material. But a golem is a construct, and so is a Warforged, which are referred to as golems, etc., etc.

Prime32

2016-06-01, 04:00 PM

Unless you mean to argue that the livewood components are what gives a warforged a soul?It's what allows them to be affected by healing magic, at least. The wood is alive and part of a creature, so it can be healed.

Gildedragon

2016-06-01, 04:18 PM

Forge of War, pages 25 and 33, among a few other locations in the book that don't outright say "golem". I thought it was Five Nations, but I was incorrect.

But no, not in my quoted material. But a golem is a construct, and so is a Warforged, which are referred to as golems, etc., etc.
No no. Warforged aren't referred to as golems; some golems were called warforged by the Cannith, the first mechanical warriors they created; but the Warforged are not golems nor are they referred as such, at least not in FoW
There's a passage on rumors of the Cannith cache which says it may hold "advanced warforged or golems" but that's probably meant as what it holds could be warforged, or it could be golems, or any of the suggestions in that sentence.

TheBrassDuke

2016-06-01, 04:58 PM

It doesn't matter if the early golems were called Warforged. The golems they made WERE and still ARE Warforged. So, yes, yes.

Afgncaap5

2016-06-01, 05:34 PM

Another weird one: I know that Prince Rygar ir'Wynarn claims to be an heir to the throne, and I *think* I remember Sebastes ir'Kesslan claiming something similar in Q'Barra, but has anything official backed that up beyond a few lines of possible rumors or claims in the books?

However, you're talking about a book that contains a half-elf with the Mark of Passage... as the main character.

For the love of Siberys, do not take anything from that book's portrayal to heart. I did not try to get through this novel, but it takes lore as more of a vague suggestion, and I heartily recommend ignoring its contents in favor of running House Orien how you want to.

Oh, I don't. I consider the books more as an example of what someone might do with the setting than canon examples of how the game world works. Even if I did, I'd be more likely to use books like James Wyatt's Draconic Prophecy, the two Abraxis Wren books I read, and The Shard Axe (even if that was technically a DDO book instead of an Eberron book proper). But even those are things I'd go to for plot inspiration rather than as a hard and fast example of how things should be.

MesiDoomstalker

2016-06-01, 06:54 PM

What exactly happened on the Day of Mourning? Please be as spoilerific as possible.

Prime32

2016-06-01, 07:46 PM

What exactly happened on the Day of Mourning? Please be as spoilerific as possible.
Whatever your DM decides.

There is no canon answer, so that "what happened on the Day of Mourning" can be a genuine mystery for the players, and you can run it many times in different ways. For the same reason, Eberron alignments are grey and many of its NPCs are presented so that they could be either a hero or a villain depending on interpretation.

MesiDoomstalker

2016-06-01, 08:38 PM

Whatever your DM decides.

There is no canon answer, so that "what happened on the Day of Mourning" can be a genuine mystery for the players, and you can run it many times in different ways. For the same reason, Eberron alignments are grey and many of its NPCs are presented so that they could be either a hero or a villain depending on interpretation.

While expected, this is still very disappointing. Oh well.

Hecuba

2016-06-01, 10:07 PM

It doesn't matter if the early golems were called Warforged. The golems they made WERE and still ARE Warforged. So, yes, yes.

But construct and golem are not the same thing. A golem is a very specific kind of construct, both in terms of D&D rules and in terms of the Eberron setting. Merely being a humanoid construct is insufficient on both fronts.

The race of beings called Warforged do not qualify on either front. They are not created in the same way, they do not have the same physical features, they do not have the same set of special abilities common to all golems, and they are not mindless.

The most that can be said it's that both are humanoid shaped constructs and that (while the precise mechanism of the Creation Forges are not specified) binding elementals is likely a part of the pieces of making both.

Some of the other constructs created Cannith prior to the creation of the Creation Forges were also called Warforged at the time of manufacture (though they are clearly distinct from the race as it is understood currently), and any actual golems encountered can probably be presumed to be of Cannith manufacture. It's quite possible there could be overlap, but any such overlapping specimens would not be Warforged in the sense the words it's generally used.

Calling a Warforged a Golem is imprecise at best and an ineffectual slur at worst. The Warforged might not care, but their friends might eventually take offense on their behalf (and House Cannith might take offence on its own).

Dragolord

2016-06-02, 02:30 AM

A living construct is a new subtype of construct, a created being given sentience and free will through powerful and complex creation enchantments. Living constructs combine aspects of both constructs and living creatures, as detailed below.
(Emphasis mine).
As you quoted for yourself, living constructs are new subtypes of constructs. Golems are old subtypes of constructs. Ergo, warforged are not golems.

Regitnui

2016-06-02, 03:37 AM

While expected, this is still very disappointing. Oh well.

Personally, I place it as the creation of a manifest zone gone wrong. Keith Baker suggested it as the Darklords of the Demiplane of Dread pulling Cyre into being a new Ravenloft-style section of their plane.

Dragolord

2016-06-02, 06:10 AM

Personally, I place it as the creation of a manifest zone gone wrong. Keith Baker suggested it as the Darklords of the Demiplane of Dread pulling Cyre into being a new Ravenloft-style section of their plane.

...it would be an easy thing to say that the Mourning was nothing less than Cyre being consumed by the Demiplane of Dread.

To be precise, he said that if an individual DM chose, it could be an explanation. Baker has said previously that he doesn't know what happened on the Day of Mourning himself, and that any explanation is as valid as another. It could have been a manifest zone appearing, it could have been the DoD, it could have been the Lord of Blades with a superweapon, it could have been an Overlord breaking free of its prison. Perhaps it was the prelude to an Inspired plot, or maybe it was a Daelkyr amusing himself, even. It all depends on what your DM thinks would be best.

TheBrassDuke

2016-06-02, 10:21 AM

While looking for an explanation a while back, I stumbled upon this, and have actually used it in my late Eberron campaign. It was great fun, and my players found it rather creepy and now fear/respect House Cannith and the Cyrans (there was a time our Thrane and Aundarian players were cruel to the Cyran wizard...not anymore, after they found out she had a part in the Mourning).

What happened on the Day of Mourning? There are many theories on what happened that fatal day and no one knows for sure.

Some believe that an Eldritch device planted by the Royal Eyes of Aundair caused the heavens to open up destroy Cyre. Others believe the Cannith creation forges were overworked, leaking uncontrolled arcane engery causing the devestation that resulted in the Day of Mourning.

There are as many theories to the origins of the Day of Mourning as there are souls in Khorvaire. If the remaining nations knew the truth of what happened on that fateful day, the surviving citizens of Cyre would find themselves unwelcome and hunted by all nations.

In the years leading up to the Mourning, Queen Dannel realized that her hopes of winning the war were waning. Her troops were demoralized and her kingdom was in ruin. Cyre had seen the brunt of too many offensives. If Cyre was going to survive and prosper Queen Dannel knew that drastic action was required.

Summoning her war council and the heads of several dragonmarked houses, Queen Dannel outlined her plan. In short Cyre needed a reprieve from war. She knew that if diplomatic channels were used at least one of the other nations would percieve it as a sign of weakness and launch an offensive. Therefore she decided that a barrier was required to seperate Cyre from the other nations. Queen Dannel envisioned a wall of force that would protect Cyre from the ravages of war. With the barrier in place Cyre could rebuild, refortify and emerge a stronger nation.

With this vision in mind members of House Cannith, Kundarak and Denieth began to work together designing a protective barrier that would surround all of Cyre. A ring of amplifiers were placed around the borders of Cyre and on the Day of Mourning House Cannith Artificers activated the barrier at the request of Queen Dannel.

It’s unknown what happened at that time, but something intefered with the barrier. Rather than a shimmering wall of force a gray mist rose up blocking all sight beyond the border of Cyre. The invading armies of Thrane, Breland and Karrnath witnessed the mists rise up and fled from the battlefield in terror. The forces of Cyre, prewarned that something would happen, did not give chase.

The lands beyond Cyre became twisted in the grey nether. Magic does not work as it should. The scholars of House Cannith have determined that some unknown force or entity altered the amplifiers that powered the barrier. Rather than a wall of force, Cyre was transported to the plane of shadow. Starrin d’Cannith assures Queen Dannel that when she is ready the barrier can be lowered and Cyre will return once more to Khorvaire.

With this news Queen Dannel has been rebuilding the fortifications of Cyre and rearming her armies. House Cannith has also been churning out new warforged to bolster the army.

Not all has gone as planned for Queen Dannel. She has found resistance to her plans from two sources. Not all the soldiers of the invading armies fled when the barrier went up and the survivors have now formed a resistance movement. They use guerilla tactics to hamper the rebuilding efforts.

The other source of resistance comes from a faction of Queen Dannels supporters. They have grown accustomed to the peace that the barrier provides. They feel that Cyre should remain where it is, cut off from the rest of Khorvaire.

The remaining members of House Cannith, Kundark and Deneith on Khorvaire have not said a word about their possible involvement in the Day of Mourning. They know that should knowledge of their part on that fateful day become known their houses fortunes would change.

Adventure Hooks

The scenario above allows a DM to run a campaign in Cyre as opposed to the rest of Eberron. The PCs could be part of the resistance movement within Cyre. Individuals who are looking to thwart Cyre’s plans and to find a way home.

The PCs have learned that the Day of Mourning was caused from a royal edict from Queen Dannel, further they’ve learned that a dragonmarked house was involved.

Fable Wright

2016-06-02, 11:20 AM

I dont have a problem with dragon mark I just have problem with pompus egomaniac rulers with int 3 ruling kingdoms like they are some thing

Cannith does not rule kingdoms, none in any position of power have int 3, and they're currently in a rather shabby state of disrepair at the moment.

well this is why I use dc 5 on knowledge check

...No, that kind of rumor would not be found on a DC 5 knowledge check. A DC 5 knowledge check is something 50% of all Sarlonan farmers and Aundairian elves would know; the existence of House Cannith itself is closer to a DC 5 check.

Another weird one: I know that Prince Rygar ir'Wynarn claims to be an heir to the throne, and I *think* I remember Sebastes ir'Kesslan claiming something similar in Q'Barra, but has anything official backed that up beyond a few lines of possible rumors or claims in the books?

To my knowledge, they do not. Given that Sebastes ir'Kesslan was a Cyran refugee and not ruling his country, though, it's unlikely that he was actually an heir to the throne, and while Rygar ir'Wynarn does have the royal last name, it's unclear whether he actually has the genealogical tree to back it up.

Regitnui

2016-06-02, 04:03 PM

To my knowledge, they do not. Given that Sebastes ir'Kesslan was a Cyran refugee and not ruling his country, though, it's unlikely that he was actually an heir to the throne, and while Rygar ir'Wynarn does have the royal last name, it's unclear whether he actually has the genealogical tree to back it up.

I've actually researched this; no, there is no conclusive proof of Rygar being a long-lost scion of the Wyrnarn family. However, in my game, he is, but so far removed that he couldn't even claim land anywhere. Sort of like the great-great-grandchild of Jarot's sixth sibling who got forgotten about shortly after Jarot gained the throne. However, his megalomania is fueled by something other than his assumed heritage...

CowardlyPaladin

2016-06-03, 04:33 AM

Dragolord

2016-06-03, 04:58 AM

1) You previously mentioned that the Path of Light is about living up to the ideals of the Quori spirit, could you elaborate what those ideals are
2) So Rakasha aren't Outsiders in the standard D&D/Planescape sense, instead they are the products of Khyber, and Courtials are the product of the one in the sky (Sybris?) What are the product of the beings from Ebberron? And if these primordial dragons embody Sky, Earth, and Under earth respectively, what kind of goals do their children have?
3) So if the Rajahs ever got free, they wouldn't make any effort to take over the world, they would just sort of puntz around and by virtue of doing that would make mortal life almost unberable?
4) Do the Lords of Dust infight? Do they make alliances with other evil outsiders or is this a Rakasha party only?
5) If they are related to Khyber, do the Cults of the Dragon Below operate with the Lords of Dust?

Also why are the Aurum the setting's punchline?

In brief?
1. Essentially, the Path of Light is about doing good, defending the innocent, and trying to get rid of the Inspired. There are 69 Kalashtar spirits, so the exact details vary, but those are the essentials.
2. Eberron became the world. Everything that came from it, from Giants to Halflings, are her children, just as every monster is one of Khyber's. Their goals vary, but Khyber's spawn want to rule everything, Siberys's want to defend the world from their devil cousins, and Eberron's just want to live and fight amongst themselves.
3. If a Rajah is freed, then it's presence will corrupt the area, yes, but most of them would want to take more direct action, as well. It wouldn't be hard for them to take over the world again, but it wouldn't be easy. The dragons could probably defeat a single Overlord, anyway.
4. The Overlords aren't actually rakshasas themselves. It's just a title, as they personally ruled the real rakshasa. They rule supreme over all evil beings, which includes all evil outsiders.
5. The Cults of the Dragon Below are insane to the last man, each in their own special way. As such, they can work with anyone and anything. The Lords of Dust, Daelkyr, Inspired, the Blood of Vol, et cetera. They may not even be aware of it.
As for your last point, I'm not entirely sure what you meant, but the Aurum can conceivably be involved in anything, and any important NPC could be a member. As such, they can be worked into almost any campaign.

CowardlyPaladin

2016-06-03, 05:44 AM

My head cannon for what happened with the Day of Mourning was all of the schemes...at the same time.

It was a super weapon being devolved by the Queen which was activated at the exact same time as the other 4 nations sent a series of super weapons against them. Meanwhile several Dragonmarked houses were involved in some needlessly complicated and highly dangerous magical experiment, unknowingly working right next door to a Group of Dreaming Dark Agents setting up a powerful ritual that would bind everybody's dreams to the Quari, and a third building in the area Housed a band of Vol cultists who were trying to recreate the Mark of Death. Around this time, a Daelkar decided to cause chaos for the LOLZ, just as some of the Lords of Dust were trying to unlock the Overlords using the souls of those killed in the war. A rogue Giant hiding in a swamp hoped to finish the ritual that led to the destruction of Xen'drick, while the a cabal of Night Hages hoped to create a plague that would wipe out all non "monster" races, while a band of 10 Dragons were secretly trying to decipher a fragment of the prophecy in the heart of the nation using magic. Meanwhile a pacifist sect in the nation hoped to create a bunch of Walls of Force to buy the nation time to negotiate a truce. This all would of worked out fine, but at that exact moment an absent minded gnome bartender thought this was the exact time to mix a new type of drink and...well you know the rest

Follow up to my questions

1) Ok, but does the Path of Light have any tenants beyond generic goodness? I know that meditation is a bit part of the faith, who does that manifest?
2) Ok, so what exactly are the goals of the non Ebberon Dragons? Khyber from what I can tell is just kind of a jerk, which is odd in a setting that seems to be about moral ambiguity, while his sister is just sort of nice. What does Khyber want beyond destroying and corrupting everything? What does his sister stand for beyond "not letting Khyber do that." Well she is dead, but her spawn...you know what I mean
3) So What exactly are the Rajah? They serve Khyber and are its creepy children, but they aren't Rakasha?
4) I thought only Night Hags and Rakasha came from Khyber, the Demons/Devils seemed to be more confined to the planes like the Quori but less interested in the affairs of mortals
5) This isn't a follow up question, but just a general question, how do Night Hags work in this setting, they are said to be spawn of Khyber like the Rakasha, but they don't seem to be nearly as nihilistically awful, and isn't a coven of them running a nation now?

Dragolord

2016-06-03, 06:51 AM

Follow up to my questions

1) Ok, but does the Path of Light have any tenants beyond generic goodness? I know that meditation is a bit part of the faith, who does that manifest?
2) Ok, so what exactly are the goals of the non Ebberon Dragons? Khyber from what I can tell is just kind of a jerk, which is odd in a setting that seems to be about moral ambiguity, while his sister is just sort of nice. What does Khyber want beyond destroying and corrupting everything? What does his sister stand for beyond "not letting Khyber do that." Well she is dead, but her spawn...you know what I mean
3) So What exactly are the Rajah? They serve Khyber and are its creepy children, but they aren't Rakasha?
4) I thought only Night Hags and Rakasha came from Khyber, the Demons/Devils seemed to be more confined to the planes like the Quori but less interested in the affairs of mortals
5) This isn't a follow up question, but just a general question, how do Night Hags work in this setting, they are said to be spawn of Khyber like the Rakasha, but they don't seem to be nearly as nihilistically awful, and isn't a coven of them running a nation now?

1. They meditate and perform rituals because they believe that by doing so, they are speeding up turning of the ages, and coming closer to destroying the Inspired and their Quori. The tenets of the faith are to be good people, essentially.
2. I'm not entirely sure where you're getting this. The Primordial Dragons don't have any goals whatsoever. Siberys is actually dead, and his sisters became Eberron and the Underdark, respectively. That isn't metaphorical. Eberron is literally the remains of a vast dragon. If they're aware of anything, they certainly aren't trying to do something.
3. Incredibly, incredibly, powerful and evil beings. As I said, the rakshasa serve them, so they are often known as the rakshasa Rajahs, but they're far more than them. It's the difference between Sauron and Durin's Bane.
4. If it's evil, it came from Khyber. Khyber made most of the evil planes, after all, so a Balor from Fernia will still obey the Overlords.
5. The Daughters of Sora Kell are indeed the rulers of Droaam. The Night Hags did come directly from Khyber, yes, and on a par with the Lords of Dust. As for their alignments, remember, nothing in Eberron is ever completely as it seems. It's entirely possible to be both Evil and a nice person, although it is rare. It's certainly possible to be evil and a well-intentioned ruler of a monstrous nation. As an aside, Droaam isn't actually a nation. It was never formally recognised by the Treaty of Thronehold. Rakshasa are uniformly evil, because they're rakshasa. If any became Good, then they would most likely become a Couatl, or some other powerful good-aligned being.

Hecuba

2016-06-03, 07:56 AM

[Puts on the nitpick hat]

3. Incredibly, incredibly, powerful and evil beings. As I said, the rakshasa serve them, so they are often known as the rakshasa Rajahs, but they're far more than them. It's the difference between Sauron and Durin's Bane.
The both Sauron and the assorted Valaraukar were corrupted Maiar: one is more powerful than the others, but they are both fundamentally the same kind of being.

A better Tolken analogy might be the distinction between the elves and the wizards.

Dragolord

2016-06-03, 08:02 AM

[Puts on the nitpick hat]

The both Sauron and the assorted Valaraukar were corrupted Maiar: one is more powerful than the others, but they are both fundamentally the same kind of being.

A better Tolken analogy might be the distinction between the elves and the wizards.

Very true, although the difference in power between the Istari and the greatest of the elves is too small to truly be apt.

Hecuba

2016-06-03, 08:50 AM

Very true, although the difference in power between the Istari and the greatest of the elves is too small to truly be apt.

On the contrary - I think on close scrutiny, it stands up very well: the powers of the Istari are sharply limited both by the strictures of their mission and by being incarnated in a physical form (though the later has benefits for direct exercise of power as well). The greatest of the elves, when armed with the equivalent of major artifacts, generally matches them this constrained level of power they can exercise in the books.

By the same token, the ability of the Rajahs are highly constrained by being locked up. The most powerful of the Rakshasa can likely at least equal their exercise of power on Eberron under those circumstances (especially if you throw them an artifact to get ship done with).

If circumstances were different, the Istari and the Rajahs would be well ahead. But circumstances are what they are.

Dragolord

2016-06-03, 09:31 AM

On the contrary - I think on close scrutiny, it stands up very well: the powers of the Istari are sharply limited both by the strictures of their mission and by being incarnated in a physical form (though the later has benefits for direct exercise of power as well). The greatest of the elves, when armed with the equivalent of major artifacts, generally matches them this constrained level of power they can exercise in the books.

By the same token, the ability of the Rajahs are highly constrained by being locked up. The most powerful of the Rakshasa can likely at least equal their exercise of power on Eberron under those circumstances (especially if you throw them an artifact to get ship done with).

If circumstances were different, the Istari and the Rajahs would be well ahead. But circumstances are what they are.

The Rajahs, however, cannot exercise their powers, beyond a few minor uses. The Istari were not permitted to, but, if it had become absolutely necessary, could have incarnated as Maiar, though the intervention of the Valar would have resulted. If anything, in terms of powers, the bound Rajahs are closer to the elves, with their subtle influences and deceptions, than the active Istari, who are closer to the Rakshasas themselves. Besides, certain elves of the First Age, such as Eärendil and Fëanor, were more powerful than the embodied Istari. No rakshasa, try as they might, is more powerful than an Overlord in any form.

Fable Wright

2016-06-03, 11:48 AM

3) So if the Rajahs ever got free, they wouldn't make any effort to take over the world, they would just sort of puntz around and by virtue of doing that would make mortal life almost unberable?

To elaborate on Dragolord's answer, they will take any and all actions they can to become freed, but I'm fairly certain that they wouldn't try to conquer the world directly. Instead, it's likely that they would just want to further their own agendas; Bel Shalor would corrupt mortals for fun, Rak Tulkesh would seek to start a war, etc. Few would want to directly rule or take over the world.

4) Do the Lords of Dust infight? Do they make alliances with other evil outsiders or is this a Rakasha party only?

They definitely do make alliances with other outsiders, but I will dispute that the Rajah rule over extraplanar Evil outsiders. Extraplanars would likely respect the Rajahs' powers, but they weren't on the mortal plane back during the Age of Demons, don't have a vested interest in bringing the Rajah back, and are highly unlikely to exist on the prime material plane for long periods of time. The Rajah don't just automatically rule Khyber's children, they earned that title on the material plane through respect.

Also why are the Aurum the setting's punchline?

In a setting where your enemies could be a conspiracy made of beings millions of years old who run the world from the shadows, dragons with hoards and agendas unimaginable to mortals, beings living in your dreams that know your thoughts and have 10 hours to plan for every one you sleep, or magidungeonpunk ex-Nazi special agents, the Aurum are a group of rich people who do bad things for profit and try to get taken seriously as one of the game's big bads.

2) Ok, so what exactly are the goals of the non Ebberon Dragons? Khyber from what I can tell is just kind of a jerk, which is odd in a setting that seems to be about moral ambiguity, while his sister is just sort of nice. What does Khyber want beyond destroying and corrupting everything? What does his sister stand for beyond "not letting Khyber do that." Well she is dead, but her spawn...you know what I mean

In the great game of creation, Khyber stood for Evil. That is, putting yourself above everything else, and tearing down everything that could be a threat to you. In my headcanon, s/he believed that the drive and struggle of beings to fight one another would lead to the most interesting world for hir siblings to watch, full of the dramatic conflicts that keep things interesting.

On the other hand, Siberys stood for Good. Sacrificing yourself to protect others, and the weak around you. In my headcanon, he believed that this would preserve the beautiful things in creation so that nothing precious would ever be lost, and he and his siblings could forever treasure the small advances they made in the world.

At the moment, though, they don't exist any active presence in the world.

5) This isn't a follow up question, but just a general question, how do Night Hags work in this setting, they are said to be spawn of Khyber like the Rakasha, but they don't seem to be nearly as nihilistically awful, and isn't a coven of them running a nation now?

There are, it is said, a total of 13 Night Hags in the setting, though one, Sora Kell, has gone missing. Night Hags essentially served as neutral ambassadors in the Age of Demons, dealing between the Rajahs and the Quori-equivalent of the time, the Rakshasa and the dragons, and essentially serving as respected messengers that would rarely get involved in conflicts. They are still Evil, as they still milk people for nightmares, harvest souls, and so on... but in Eberron, Evil isn't doesn't mean 'terrible person'. King Kaius is Evil, but he's one of the strongest advocates for peace in the modern age, and every action he's taken in office has been to protect his people.

4. If it's evil, it came from Khyber. Khyber made most of the evil planes, after all, so a Balor from Fernia will still obey the Overlords.

If it were trapped on the material plane, and if it were near enough to the Overlord that it was in hearing range, a Balor from Fernia would obey the overlord. It does have a self-preservation instinct. It would not instinctively seek an Overlord to help free, nor care what the Lords of Dust want outside of what they're offering him for his services, nor would it go to a freed Overlord to try and receive orders. Khyber's children are not one big happy family, and the rift is especially big on different sides of the astral.

5. The Daughters of Sora Kell are indeed the rulers of Droaam. The Night Hags did come directly from Khyber, yes, and on a par with the Lords of Dust. As for their alignments, remember, nothing in Eberron is ever completely as it seems. It's entirely possible to be both Evil and a nice person, although it is rare. It's certainly possible to be evil and a well-intentioned ruler of a monstrous nation. As an aside, Droaam isn't actually a nation. It was never formally recognised by the Treaty of Thronehold. Rakshasa are uniformly evil, because they're rakshasa. If any became Good, then they would most likely become a Couatl, or some other powerful good-aligned being.

Okay, a few things to correct here.
1. The Daughters of Sora Kell are not Night Hags. They are an Annis, Dusk, and Green hag, respectively, but they received the Half-Fiend template from their mother, Sora Kell.
2. Droaam was not formally recognized as a nation by the Treaty of Thronehold because it was two years old at the time of signing. Everyone believed that it would collapse. However, as the nation has grown and prospered over the past 10 years, each nation but Breland is increasingly likely to recognize it. It has some of the best laborers one could ask for, excellent ties with House Tharashk (one of the most powerful Dragonmarked Houses), and it has both received and sent ambassadors to each of the five nations at various points. It's not a nation yet, but it could be soon.

CowardlyPaladin

2016-06-03, 02:05 PM

So the three Dragons are just Good Evil and Neutral Personified, but without Law or Chaos? And the Demons/Devils/Rakashas are all the spawn of Khyber, just only the Rakasha seem to care about releasing the overlords, who are just sort of...evil.

Do I have that right? And do the Overlords have motives more complicated than being generally evil? Or the Rakashas too for that matter

Dragolord

2016-06-03, 02:41 PM

CowardlyPaladin

2016-06-03, 03:37 PM

The Primordial Dragons don't represent the alignments. It's just that Khyber is evil, and the others happen to be good.

Let's use a metaphor for your second one. It's four o'clock on Thursday afternoon. It's been a long, hard, week at work, and your boss, a notorious slave-driver, has fallen asleep in his office. Most of you are just sitting around, a few of you are working, although much more slowly than the boss would like, and that one annoying colleague of yours is trying to wake him up, so he can make everyone get back to work. That man represents the Lords of Dust.
(Yes, I know it doesn't quite work. I'm just trying to put this to bed.)

I thought Eberron are Neutral.

So why are the Rakashas the annoying work college, do they have a closer connection to the Overlords than the other Fiends, or is it just because they are earthbound and so don't have much else to do with their time?

The reason why I keep asking is because Eberron seems to be very into villains who have complicated and understandable motives (except the Daelkar obviously) so I'm trying to figure out how the fiends operate.

Actually I heard there is more to the Angels from the Sky realm then meets hte eye, can anybody elaborate on that?

Fable Wright

2016-06-03, 03:45 PM

So the three Draongs are just Good Evil and Neutral Personified, but without Law or Chaos? And the Demons/Devils/Rakashas are all the spawn of Khyber, just only the Rakasha seem to care about releasing the overlords, who are just sort of...evil.

Do I have that right? And do the Overlords have motives more complicated than being generally evil? Or the Rakashas too for that matter

Demons and Devils were created by Khyber when he was helping make the planes of Eberron. Rakshasas and Overlords were born from his flesh.

Dragolord's metaphor was apt, if a bit lacking. The Overlords are more than just 'Evil'; they've got likes and dislikes and things they specialize in. At the end of the day, though, humans near them are driven mad and probably killed, and the Overlords love tormenting people in accordance with their specialties. The Rakshasa knew the overlords back in their heyday and had a great deal of fun helping them out, usually didn't get the brunt of the torment, and respawned anyway if they did so no harm no foul. The Rakshasa's motives are generally evil to the core, but all they want is to indulge their (sadistic) tastes for a while, and it turns out the best way to do that is get the Overlords free again.

They just tend to be incredibly classy while on the job, unlike most extraplanars when they visit the prime.

EDIT:

So why are the Rakashas the annoying work college, do they have a closer connection to the Overlords than the other Fiends, or is it just because they are earthbound and so don't have much else to do with their time?

They're closer than other fiends because they're the most numerous Native Outsider with the Evil subtype, but most evil native outsiders have the same kind of drive Rakshasa do.

The reason why I keep asking is because Eberron seems to be very into villains who have complicated and understandable motives (except the Daelkar obviously) so I'm trying to figure out how the fiends operate.

Capital-E Evil, with their twist being that they have a much better claim to owning the planet (then and now) than any of the other races, have some seriously powerful relics from when they ruled the planet, and have shapeshifting and sorcerous powers.

Actually I heard there is more to the Angels from the Sky realm then meets hte eye, can anybody elaborate on that?

Are you talking about the Angels of Syrania, or the Radiant Idols (the actual villain material) that they cast out?

Prime32

2016-06-03, 04:18 PM

1) You previously mentioned that the Path of Light is about living up to the ideals of the Quori spirit, could you elaborate what those ideals are

1) Ok, but does the Path of Light have any tenants beyond generic goodness? I know that meditation is a bit part of the faith, who does that manifest?The world is shaped by dreams. Dal Quor is a realm of nightmares because its current zeitgeist/ruler il'Lashtavar ("The Dreaming Dark") was born through negative thought. They believe that focused meditation can eventually change the nature of il'Lashtavar and bring about a golden age.

3) So if the Rajahs ever got free, they wouldn't make any effort to take over the world, they would just sort of puntz around and by virtue of doing that would make mortal life almost unberable?
3) So What exactly are the Rajah? They serve Khyber and are its creepy children, but they aren't Rakasha?It is often said that no one knows if Eberron's gods truly exist... but that's in the sense of D&D's mechanical definition of a god: a being with a divine rank.

The rajahs are anthropomorphic personifications of negative concepts, and the most powerful known beings in the setting (at least one is CR 50). Even within their prisons, they continue to exert their power on the world on a more limited scale. Their numbers include beings who in other settings would be classified as gods (Tiamat), demon lords (Levistus) or elder evils (Atropus), as well as original entities like Bel Shalor (who lurks inside the Silver Flame sending false messages that lure followers to zealotry).

It's also implied that the Dark Six are based on stories of the rajahs which became distorted over time (e.g. that The Shadow was based on records of Bel Shalor and Sul Khatesh).
http://eberron.wikia.com/wiki/Overlords

4) Do the Lords of Dust infight? Do they make alliances with other evil outsiders or is this a Rakasha party only?The rakshasa are the most prominent members of the Lords of Dust due to their skill at intrigue, but it contains other demons as well. Also, not all rakshasa want to free their former masters - some want to steal their power.

5) If they are related to Khyber, do the Cults of the Dragon Below operate with the Lords of Dust?Most of the Cults of the Dragon Below don't actually worship Khyber (at least not directly), and don't have much in common with each other. They tend to be associated with aberrations more than anything.
There was an article that delved into the different forms a cult might take, in... Dragon magazine IIRC?

The Lords of Dust might find it useful to create or manipulate a cult, though.

CowardlyPaladin

2016-06-05, 10:17 PM

wait what are the radiant Idols?

Gildedragon

2016-06-05, 11:14 PM

wait what are the radiant Idols?

Fallen celestials that start up super sketch cults of personality. They land in sharn (as it is a cyrania manifest zone) though can then migrate outwards. They might land in other manifest zones (if they exist) but are notable in sharn as being the source of the city's corruption. They can bestow domains and instakill any follower.
They are detailed upon in ECS or in Sharn CoT
As to why they fell: they ceased being pure G... Which is super worrisome as Cyrania doesn't produce new angels. The ones that were there upon Eberron's creation are all the ones there will ever be. If they are killed or they fall... Too bad, one angel less

Fable Wright

2016-06-06, 04:28 PM

Fallen celestials that start up super sketch cults of personality. They land in sharn (as it is a cyrania manifest zone) though can then migrate outwards. They might land in other manifest zones (if they exist) but are notable in sharn as being the source of the city's corruption. They can bestow domains and instakill any follower.
They are detailed upon in ECS or in Sharn CoT
As to why they fell: they ceased being pure G... Which is super worrisome as Cyrania doesn't produce new angels. The ones that were there upon Eberron's creation are all the ones there will ever be. If they are killed or they fall... Too bad, one angel less

Okay, a few corrections here. They're defined in Sharn, City of Towers. Also, the plane is Syrania with an S, not Cyrania.

Second, the reason they fell, specifically, was that they ceased believing in the Sovereigns IIRC. Not usually out of malice in their hearts, but because of a lack of faith. The problem with Angels falling is that, like the Rakshasa, they respawn over time. If they die, they reform; if they're bound, they can be freed. If they fall, there is forever one less Angel in Syrania. A Radiant Idol will always reform on the Material plane, and be forever fallen.

Third, they don't bestow domains, but they do claim one to use for themselves, and they have a variety of powers to use on their cultists outside of just killing them. They can discern the location of any cultist, scry on them, and torture them as well... though the combination of Scry and the innate ability to Greater Teleport makes them exceedingly dangerous even if they do not grant spells to their followers.

Finally, they have a distinctive feature that you forgot to mention: Their wings were ripped off. Not just 'they don't have wings', but 'their back is still raw and bloody no matter how much time has passed, they can no longer fly even when polymorphed, and flight granting magic just fails within 30ft of them like they were antimagic'. Which is rather awkward, given that the upper levels of Sharn can't even be reached without flying magic.

CowardlyPaladin

2016-06-09, 03:16 AM

So let me run this down

Angels come from Sibyris, and their are limited number of them.

Rakashas/Demons/Devils come from Khyber, and their are unlimited of them.

When Angels or Rakasha die, they will be reincarnated. Should an Angel fall though, they will become a Radiant Idol and that angel is gone forever. They have the creepy wings. And they fall, not for ceasing to be good, but for losing faith in the Sovereigns, which is not the case for the children of Khyber, who don't seem to have a similar relationship to the Lords of Dust.

The Rakasha dwell on the Material Plane, the Angels dwell in the Sky plane and the battlefield plane (along with the demons and devils). The Angels in Shavarath are different from those in Syrania correct?

Regitnui

2016-06-09, 03:59 AM

Siberys, but yes.

CowardlyPaladin

2016-06-09, 05:00 AM

Siberys, but yes.

Wow, sucks to be good.

Ok, so can the reverse happen? Can Rakasha rise and become...I don't know, subdued icons?

Gildedragon

2016-06-09, 09:06 AM

I was rereading the Radiant Idol entry and I couldn't find anything about faith in the Sovereigns having anything to do with their fall. Instead it said that their sin was wanting to be worshiped by mortals.

A fiend (demon or devil, not a rakshasa) could ostensibly be exiled from the hells for being too nice... Though I feel the fiends would rather torture and kill the defector. The Radiant Idol's exile is a sort of mercy on behalf of the angels.

If a Rakshasa turned good, I'd expect the lords of dust to imprison the Rakshasa. Possibly killing it near the Lair of the Keeper(? that massive soul-trapping K-shard formation)

The good counterpart of Rakshasas aren't angels but couatls

Dragolord

2016-06-09, 10:53 AM

A fiend is evil personified… and as a result, it is both always evil and a much purer evil than you tend to see in mortal creatures; on a scale of one to ten, it goes to eleven. It is possible for the angel to fall or the demon to rise (as shown by the Quori bound to the kalashtar), but in these cases the spirit will typically physically transform to reflect this change. An angel that falls from Syrania will become a fiend or a radiant idol, for example. So when you meet a devil, you can generally be pretty sure it’s lawful evil, because that’s what it means to BE a devil.
Relevant, I think.

CowardlyPaladin

2016-06-09, 04:05 PM

Wouldn't that mean an Angel who falls turn into a Demon/Devil (not a Rakasha cause they are opposed to the Couatl) instead of a Radiant Idol? Is the Radiant Idol a special kind of fall?

Gildedragon

2016-06-09, 04:17 PM

Wouldn't that mean an Angel who falls turn into a Demon/Devil (not a Rakasha cause they are opposed to the Couatl) instead of a Radiant Idol? Is the Radiant Idol a special kind of fall?
On the scale of evil
Fiends>>>Radiant Idols>=Angels
A good aligned angel that grows so conceited as to demand worship will get dewinged and sent on a one-way trip on the sharn express

CowardlyPaladin

2016-06-09, 04:42 PM

On the scale of evil
Fiends>>>Radiant Idols>=Angels
A good aligned angel that grows so conceited as to demand worship will get dewinged and sent on a one-way trip on the sharn express

ok, why only Sharn? Is there something about that city specifically?

Gildedragon

2016-06-09, 05:00 PM

ok, why only Sharn? Is there something about that city specifically?

It is built on a manifest zone for Syrania; so odds are that something that falls from the Azure Sky lands in Sharn

CowardlyPaladin

2016-06-09, 06:53 PM

It is built on a manifest zone for Syrania; so odds are that something that falls from the Azure Sky lands in Sharn

Ah that makes sense. So the Angels in Syrania are the only ones who make Radiant Idols, what about the Angels of the battlefield plane?

Gildedragon

2016-06-09, 07:03 PM

Ah that makes sense. So the Angels in Syrania are the only ones who make Radiant Idols, what about the Angels of the battlefield plane?

Those aren't angels. They are archons

CowardlyPaladin

2016-06-09, 09:01 PM

Those aren't angels. They are archons

Where do they come from if Demons and Devils come from Khyber.

In a non Khyber related question, is there any resource on the 13 planes that makes them more interesting? As it is, only Dal Quer and Xorit are really devolved in the main book plus the wiki, what information is there on the other books?

Fable Wright

2016-06-09, 09:14 PM

I was rereading the Radiant Idol entry and I couldn't find anything about faith in the Sovereigns having anything to do with their fall. Instead it said that their sin was wanting to be worshiped by mortals.

Double checking my sources, it turns out that I had unintentionally included a 4e-ism into my headcanon. If, and only if, the demiplane of Baator is included in your Eberron, the belief of an Angel determines how it falls as follows: If the angel believed in the Sovereigns, it becomes a Devil and is thrown into the prison-demiplane of Baator by its companions. If the Angel did not believe in the Sovereigns, it falls down to Sharn as a Radiant Idol.

The good counterpart of Rakshasas aren't angels but couatls

Do note that a 'risen' Rakshasa would not become a Coatl, given their primordial dragon nature. They would rise into a new form, which Keith Baker suggested would be a Deva, their good Indian mythology counterparts.

Wouldn't that mean an Angel who falls turn into a Demon/Devil (not a Rakasha cause they are opposed to the Couatl) instead of a Radiant Idol? Is the Radiant Idol a special kind of fall?

If you're running with Baator in your Eberron, your answer is above. If not, it would depend on how far the Angel fell; a Radiant Idol can be good or neutral. A Devil cannot.

EDIT:

Where do they come from if Demons and Devils come from Khyber.

They are spawned directly by Shavarath, much like the Demons and Devils of Shavarath are spawned by the plane. (Extraplanar Demons and Devils are spawned by the planes themselves, not by Khyber; a Mabarian succubus would look and indeed act very differently than a succubus spawned in the Demon Wastes.)

In a non Khyber related question, is there any resource on the 13 planes that makes them more interesting? As it is, only Dal Quer and Xorit are really devolved in the main book plus the wiki, what information is there on the other books?

Keith Baker has listed it as one of his big regrets of Eberron that there is no big resource on the 13 planes, and that they're stuck at high concepts. The four things on his wishlist for Wizards to approve for him: A sourcebook on Darguun, a sourcebook for Droaam, a look into the Demon Wastes, a sourcebook for the Thunder Sea, and a sourcebook for the planes. There's a bit scattered around, and the 4e ECG has presented them in the most interesting light so far, but there's not much there at all.

CowardlyPaladin

2016-06-11, 02:35 PM

Double checking my sources, it turns out that I had unintentionally included a 4e-ism into my headcanon. If, and only if, the demiplane of Baator is included in your Eberron, the belief of an Angel determines how it falls as follows: If the angel believed in the Sovereigns, it becomes a Devil and is thrown into the prison-demiplane of Baator by its companions. If the Angel did not believe in the Sovereigns, it falls down to Sharn as a Radiant Idol.

Do note that a 'risen' Rakshasa would not become a Coatl, given their primordial dragon nature. They would rise into a new form, which Keith Baker suggested would be a Deva, their good Indian mythology counterparts.

If you're running with Baator in your Eberron, your answer is above. If not, it would depend on how far the Angel fell; a Radiant Idol can be good or neutral. A Devil cannot.

EDIT:

They are spawned directly by Shavarath, much like the Demons and Devils of Shavarath are spawned by the plane. (Extraplanar Demons and Devils are spawned by the planes themselves, not by Khyber; a Mabarian succubus would look and indeed act very differently than a succubus spawned in the Demon Wastes.)

Keith Baker has listed it as one of his big regrets of Eberron that there is no big resource on the 13 planes, and that they're stuck at high concepts. The four things on his wishlist for Wizards to approve for him: A sourcebook on Darguun, a sourcebook for Droaam, a look into the Demon Wastes, a sourcebook for the Thunder Sea, and a sourcebook for the planes. There's a bit scattered around, and the 4e ECG has presented them in the most interesting light so far, but there's not much there at all.

4th edition added Baator...doesn't that seem really out of place for the setting?

Are their any fan materials that might fill the gap in the mean time, because the cosmology seems pretty intricate to the setting

Also I really don't seem to get how outsiders work in this game, I thought all of the evil outsiders came from Khyber, but its only the ones in the Demon Wastes?

On an entirely different subject matter, What is Vol's long term goal? I know she is running her cult to increase her power, but what is her eventual end game?

Dragolord

2016-06-11, 03:08 PM

On an entirely different subject matter, What is Vol's long term goal? I know she is running her cult to increase her power, but what is her eventual end game?

As with everything else important in Eberron, it varies according to the DM's wishes. She always wants to restore her Dragonmark, although the method and purpose she chooses are entirely up to you. She might want to become the Queen of Death, she might want revenge on the entirety of Argonessen and Aerenal, or she might just want to resurrect herself and her family. Maybe she wants to find her phylactery, so that she can destroy herself. Whatever it is, it's probably going to be apocalyptic, and involve an awful lot of death.

Fable Wright

2016-06-11, 04:48 PM

4th edition added Baator...doesn't that seem really out of place for the setting?

It's a very different Baator than the one you know. It's a prison-demiplane that was impervious until the Mourning somehow breached a small hole in it. Asmodeus is a very new player in the 4e Eberron game, a wildcard playing for high stakes, capable of very little direct influence and crippled by massive obscurity. His rise to power is also recent and unstable compared to every other incarnation of his, putting him in a pretty interesting position all things considered.

Are their any fan materials that might fill the gap in the mean time, because the cosmology seems pretty intricate to the setting

Forge of War has some information on Shavarath, but really all you've got is some gentle advice to avoid doing much exploring on the planes. It's something that you can and probably should safely ignore outside of manifest zones.

Also I really don't seem to get how outsiders work in this game, I thought all of the evil outsiders came from Khyber, but its only the ones in the Demon Wastes?

Fiends on the planes are spawned by the plane itself. Evil outsiders spawned on the material plane are either spawned deep in the depths of Khyber under the earth, or near the surface in the Demon Wastes.

ShurikVch

2016-06-15, 11:32 AM

Question: if interdimensional traveler of some sort somehow gets to ECS world, will it plausible for him to acquire Aberrant Dragonmark, or are they accessible only for natives?

Mr Adventurer

2016-06-15, 01:54 PM

Question: if interdimensional traveler of some sort somehow gets to ECS world, will it plausible for him to acquire Aberrant Dragonmark, or are they accessible only for natives?

Tangent: I once had this idea for a campaign that would start out a normal adventuring group in the Forgotten Realms, then (at a relatively low level) they'd get lost on the Planes and end up travelling through the Deep Ethereal to accidentally (or by Mysterious Design) end up on Eberron. Then they'd all spontaneously start sprouting Siberys Marks of Death, and watch the world go crazy.

Fable Wright

2016-06-15, 04:07 PM

Question: if interdimensional traveler of some sort somehow gets to ECS world, will it plausible for him to acquire Aberrant Dragonmark, or are they accessible only for natives?

It depends on how the DM chooses to run Aberrant Dragonmarks, but it is indeed very plausible. Some kind of fate from his old world that he can now longer fulfill might cause it to manifest; it might not be biological, but an ancient and epic curse that strikes at random; it might just manifest in those whose bloodlines have never touched the Dragonmarked Houses, and his alien bloodline might attract a Greater or stronger mark. Who knows?

Tangent: I once had this idea for a campaign that would start out a normal adventuring group in the Forgotten Realms, then (at a relatively low level) they'd get lost on the Planes and end up travelling through the Deep Ethereal to accidentally (or by Mysterious Design) end up on Eberron. Then they'd all spontaneously start sprouting Siberys Marks of Death, and watch the world go crazy.

Well, they've got a 16th level half-dragon lich gunning for them from the word go. Sounds interesting. What powers did you choose for the Dragonmark of Death?

Regitnui

2016-06-16, 02:19 AM

It's a very different Baator than the one you know. It's a prison-demiplane that was impervious until the Mourning somehow breached a small hole in it. Asmodeus is a very new player in the 4e Eberron game, a wildcard playing for high stakes, capable of very little direct influence and crippled by massive obscurity. His rise to power is also recent and unstable compared to every other incarnation of his, putting him in a pretty interesting position all things considered.

That almost makes me want to include Baator as canon in the Eberron cosmology. Almost. I still prefer that the Neutral angels get flung out into various Syrania manifest zones (Sharn radiant idols get all the publicity), and the evil ones spontaneously implode and reform on one of the other planes more fitting to their new nature; Dolurrh, Shavarath, Fernia or Risia.

I also like the suggestion that the few redeemed rakshasas that get away from being tortured to death by their less-forgiving kin become the lowest angels.

Re: Dragonmark of Death. I came.up with a list, going off the two facts that "no true dragonmark is inherently evil" and the crossbreeding of dragon and elf caused their destruction, not their practices or powers. The result was an image of dragonmarked funereal experts. Vol-line elves were amongst the best at caring for dead bodies, undead and undying on Aerenal, despite their fondness for Mabaran necromancy.

3.5:
Least: Death Watch 2/day, Speak with Dead 1/day
Lesser: Death Ward 1/day, Bestow Curse 1/day
Greater: Mark of Justice 1/day, Raise Dead 1/day
Siberys: Resurrection 1/day

5e (incomplete)
Least: Spare the Dying, False Life
Lesser: Phantasmal force
Greater: Speak with dead.

Mr Adventurer

2016-06-16, 06:44 AM

Well, they've got a 16th level half-dragon lich gunning for them from the word go. Sounds interesting. What powers did you choose for the Dragonmark of Death?

It was a long time ago, but I think I was vacillating between Wail of the Banshee, or some unique power, possibly similar to the Death Domain granted power.

Fable Wright

2016-06-16, 12:39 PM

That almost makes me want to include Baator as canon in the Eberron cosmology. Almost. I still prefer that the Neutral angels get flung out into various Syrania manifest zones (Sharn radiant idols get all the publicity), and the evil ones spontaneously implode and reform on one of the other planes more fitting to their new nature; Dolurrh, Shavarath, Fernia or Risia.

Do note that even if Baator is included into your cosmology, half or perhaps most of the Angels that fall from Syrania still get flung out into the manifest zones and/or across the planes; only those who follow the Sovereigns are shoved in the box by their comrades. Those that weren't evil before tend to become so rather quickly.

It was a long time ago, but I think I was vacillating between Wail of the Banshee, or some unique power, possibly similar to the Death Domain granted power.

As noted by Regitnui, one of the design principles that the Eberron designed team stuck to was to avoid purely offensive powers for the marks. All but the aberrant marks have to have some kind of constructive use for society. Just leaving this here in the event anyone reading the thread wants to run a similar scenario in the future.

Malimar

2016-06-23, 01:44 PM

I just encountered the following comment on another site:

Also while it gets a tragically small amount of attention in the published materials Eberron features the nation of Droaam which consists largely of monstrous races and feeds its populace through use of troll grist mills that take advantage of trolls regenerative capabilities to supply endless quantities of troll sausage.
Is this (sensible yet rather alarming) claim about troll sausage true?

Tanuki Tales

2016-06-23, 02:01 PM

Gildedragon

2016-06-23, 02:06 PM

Dragolord

2016-06-23, 02:32 PM

I just encountered the following comment on another site:

Is this (sensible yet rather alarming) claim about troll sausage true?

Eberron is based on what sensible people would do in a world with magic. If you're a psychopath, paying a troll to let you cut its arms off a few hundred times a day is only reasonable. Yes, the Daughters feed their subjects on their other subjects.

Gildedragon

2016-06-23, 02:48 PM

Zombimode

2016-06-23, 02:54 PM

Eberron is based on what sensible people would do in a world with magic. If you're a psychopath, paying a troll to let you cut its arms off a few hundred times a day is only reasonable. Yes, the Daughters feed their subjects on their other subjects.

Trolls as infinity energy sources exist only in universes where drowing healing also works. And other "there is no rule that says I can't..." ideas.

Dragolord

2016-06-23, 03:18 PM

Trolls as infinity energy sources exist only in universes where drowing healing also works. And other "there is no rule that says I can't..." ideas.

Infinite energy sources? They eat the stuff, they don't use it to heat steam and drive turbines.

Tanuki Tales

2016-06-23, 03:21 PM

As Rakshasa Rajahs; bound beneath the earth, worshiped by mad cultists

But don't the Overlords want to be released from Khyber to once again rule over Eberron?

The Great Old Ones tend to be more nihilistic in nature, especially Hastur and his cult. Also, how does this reconcile with the GOO, once again Hastur specifically, who exist on other worlds/planes and only manifest on Earth/The Prime Material through avatars?

torrasque666

2016-06-23, 04:06 PM

But don't the Overlords want to be released from Khyber to once again rule over Eberron?

The Great Old Ones tend to be more nihilistic in nature, especially Hastur and his cult. Also, how does this reconcile with the GOO, once again Hastur specifically, who exist on other worlds/planes and only manifest on Earth/The Prime Material through avatars?

Some kind of leader on Xoriat. Xoriat is the realm of Madness, but only necessarily so because it is so alien to the dwellers of the Material that they cannot even begin to grasp it. Certainly seem the place of the GOOs.

Afgncaap5

2016-06-23, 04:16 PM

But don't the Overlords want to be released from Khyber to once again rule over Eberron?

Sort of. I think Keith Baker was once asked why the Lords of Dust don't try to rule the world, and their response was basically "Don't we?" I personally think that the Quori or Daelkyr are better Lovecraftian entities, but the Overlords (as living embodiments of conceptual terrors) fit the bill pretty well. I mean, let's say that the Overlord who is the manifestation of Treachery and Betrayal escapes imprisonment; what does that *do* to a society? I mean, if my next-door neighbor was The Certainty Of Murder, then I'm pretty sure I'd either be murdered or become a murderer even if the Overlord wasn't really out to get me specifically.

The Great Old Ones tend to be more nihilistic in nature, especially Hastur and his cult. Also, how does this reconcile with the GOO, once again Hastur specifically, who exist on other worlds/planes and only manifest on Earth/The Prime Material through avatars?

I think it can still work. In fact, the "can only manifest through avatars" thing is really similar to how creatures from Dal Quor have to operate, since they tend to either need some sort of willing mortal vessel or do something to trick or alter the mental state of people so that they become vessels anyway (a la Dream Lily).

I'd recommend checking out the book Elder Evils and seeing the ways they suggest those things fit in Eberron. In particular, make note of Father Llymic, who hails from Xoriat, not a bad place for someone like Hastur to come from.

While I don't like to use Cthulhu-ish things in Eberron too often myself (the creeping inevitability of hopeless despair tends to get in the way of the swashbuckling adventure that I prefer), there's definitely room. I'd situate him on one of the remaining moons of Eberron, personally, but that's just me.

Tanuki Tales

2016-06-23, 04:36 PM

So, I read over the Father Llymic entry (who incidentally, next to Atropus, is one of the Elder Evils I always wanted to see the most in play) for adapting him to Eberron and it leaves me wanting. The Daelkyr, by lore, are supposed to be the uncontested lords of Xoriat and are more on par with Pit Fiends, Balors and Solars. As such, how can more powerful Aberrant entities exist on Xoriat and not be the de facto leaders of the plane, unless they're more akin to Azathoth?

Great Old Ones tend to have massive psychic resonances on mortal life and individuals like Bokrug even exist solely on Dream Planes, so I think them being some kind of godlike Quori makes more sense.

Unfortunately I know very little about Dal Quor or how the GOO would be placed into the political struggle between The Dreaming Dark/Inspired and the rebellious Quori/Kalashtar.

AslanCross

2016-06-23, 06:34 PM

How would one include the Great Old Ones in Eberron?

I was thinking of having Hastur have created Xoriat to absorb all life in the cosmology, only to ultimately freeze it into an art piece to contemplate for the rest of eternity in nihilistic silence.

Unfortunately, I worry if that's ascribing too much of a rational mindset to a GOO and I'm out of touch enough, because of the fog of ages, with Eberron lore to know if that'd work.

I think it fits a lot with the default Elder Evils in the cosmology, especially the Daelkyr. I would probably make it less explicit than that, but the tendency of Xoriat is to corrupt anything it touches anyway, so that sort of fits.

If I'm not mistaken, Xoriat was sent to the farthest it could be from Eberron.

CowardlyPaladin

2016-06-23, 09:26 PM

Do we have any details or write ups of the Rakashas Rajahs?

Also how exactly does the Dragon Prophecy work?

Gildedragon

2016-06-23, 11:26 PM

Do we have any details or write ups of the Rakashas Rajahs?

Also how exactly does the Dragon Prophecy work?

We have some names and attributes.
They ought NEVER EVER EVER go free if you want to keep the campaign setting even remotely close to all right.
Atropus is, ostensibly, a Rajah, as are a couple of the other Elder Evils.

As to how the Draconic prophecy works: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
it just sorta does.
What its goals are, what it means to do: probably keep the RRs in their prisions and maintain the world stable (that is Eberron, the dragon,'s schtick after all).
Alien invasion: the prophecy probably has clues how to keep it at bay or stop it
RR: it has information on how it is kept bound (and thus how to free it) and what to do if the bonds start to fail

The Prophecy is, to some extent, the manifest will of the world.

Tanuki Tales

2016-06-24, 12:06 AM

Tiamat is also a Rajah.

Fable Wright

2016-06-24, 12:38 AM

I just encountered the following comment on another site:

Is this (sensible yet rather alarming) claim about troll sausage true?

Yes. Grist comes from Grist mills, which work by grinding up troll meat off living trolls. Normally troll meat is toxic, but a recipe of secret herbs and spices allows it to be consumed without negative effect. Most don't know about this, and among those who do, few care. Some of the trolls are criminals, some are slaves, and some are self-styled martyrs who are doing what they can to support their country.

So, I read over the Father Llymic entry (who incidentally, next to Atropus, is one of the Elder Evils I always wanted to see the most in play) for adapting him to Eberron and it leaves me wanting. The Daelkyr, by lore, are supposed to be the uncontested lords of Xoriat and are more on par with Pit Fiends, Balors and Solars. As such, how can more powerful Aberrant entities exist on Xoriat and not be the de facto leaders of the plane, unless they're more akin to Azathoth?

Ah, no. Daelkyr, as described by Keith Baker, are the most powerful Xoriat entities who take an interest in the material plane. So far. They are by NO means the strongest beings in Xoriat, and may actually fall down on the weaker end of the power scale. They're Xoriat's scientists. What do you think Xoriat's warriors and warlords look like?

Great Old Ones tend to have massive psychic resonances on mortal life and individuals like Bokrug even exist solely on Dream Planes, so I think them being some kind of godlike Quori makes more sense.

Unfortunately I know very little about Dal Quor or how the GOO would be placed into the political struggle between The Dreaming Dark/Inspired and the rebellious Quori/Kalashtar.

There is no room in Quori society for a Great Old One. Should they exist in Dal Quor, they exist in the realms where Quori fear to tread, and may in fact be responsible for the phenomenon of The Turning Of The Age. They would be perhaps one of the very few threats that would get the Kalashtar and the Inspired on the same side of the conflict.

I think it fits a lot with the default Elder Evils in the cosmology, especially the Daelkyr. I would probably make it less explicit than that, but the tendency of Xoriat is to corrupt anything it touches anyway, so that sort of fits.

If I'm not mistaken, Xoriat was sent to the farthest it could be from Eberron.

No, Dal Quor was sent the furthest it could possibly be from Eberron, by means of destroying the moon it was tied to. The dragons responded to this show of power by the giants apocalyptically. Xoriat is still free to wander. It could become coterminous tomorrow and we'd have no warning.

PairO'Dice Lost

2016-06-24, 12:45 AM

Great Old Ones tend to have massive psychic resonances on mortal life and individuals like Bokrug even exist solely on Dream Planes, so I think them being some kind of godlike Quori makes more sense.

Unfortunately I know very little about Dal Quor or how the GOO would be placed into the political struggle between The Dreaming Dark/Inspired and the rebellious Quori/Kalashtar.

To expand on Fable's comment, the very short version of the quori/kalashtar conflict is that the current state of Dal Quor depends on the quor tarai or "spirit of the age" on Eberron; the dreams of mortals influence the state of Dal Quor, which shapes the quori, who influence the dreams of mortals, who have new dreams, which influence the state of Dal Quor, and so forth. The current age of Dal Quor is the Dreaming Dark, il'Lashtavar, which is a nightmarish age creating/mirroring the constant war, conflict, nationalism, fear, and other such emotions for the past several millennia. The nature of the previous age of Dal Quor, but the next age is believed to be an age of peace, tranquility, and enlightenment called il'Yannah.

The issue is that when an age turns on Dal Quor, all of the quori (who all basically start as mind seeded extensions of the quor tarai and only become real individuals over time) are "reset" to fit the new age, the same way that a quori killed for real (not just while possessing someone) merges with the plane and is spit out again without any of its memory or personality. So the quori spirits in the kalashtar are spirits from the prior age who melded with humans on Eberron to escape being reset by the turning of the age into il'Lashtavar and want to bring about il'Yannah so they can return to Dal Quor without being reset (since they believe that the previous age and il'Yannah are basically the same "good" ages and they'd fit into the new age just fine), while the current quori are doing everything they can to keep Eberron in its current state so that the age never turns again and destroys them.

There are twelve of the most powerful variety of quori in Dal Quor, the Kalaraq quori, and while not all of them follow the theoretical "leader" of the quori (the Devourer of Dreams, who claims to speak for the Dreaming Dark itself) and all have their own agendas and opinions on how to advance il'Lashtavar, they are united in their purpose and would never undermine a rival if they thought it would harm the quori as a whole. So the quori and the kalashtar aren't waging a political struggle, they're waging an existential war where victory for one side means the other side literally ceases to exist and joins the winning side, which for immortal beings who like their own existence is a Very Bad Thing.

The Great Old Ones wouldn't naturally slot into the quori fluff and would require some adaptation of both them and the quori, but if you were set on introducing them to Eberron on the side of the quori rather than as beings that both the quori and the kalashtar fear, they would most likely fit as more powerful but less individuated quori spirits: powerful enough to dwarf a kalaraq's mental abilities, but too alien to care about inter-quori rivalries, interacting with mortals directly, or the like. They might be the power source of the hanbalani alta (the huge psionic monoliths in Sarlona that shape the dreams of Riedrans and protect and monitor the continent), spun out of the Dreaming Dark for the express purpose of shaping the dreams of mortals on a massive scale. They might be the intermediate stage between the incomprehensibly vast Dreaming Dark and the more mortal-like quori, serving as a lens through which the Dreaming Dark can filter its experience down to the quori's level. They might be Dal Quor's equivalent of Xoriat's Elder Evils and Khyber's Rakshasa Rajahs: the quori, daelkyr, and fiends rule in those respective places because their more powerful brethren are sealed away somehow--and maybe it was the quori who sealed the Great Old Ones away in the first place, like how the devils sealed away the Ancient Baatorians in the standard cosmology, so that they could rule the plane uncontested.

Dragolord

2016-06-25, 12:38 PM

No, Xoriat is still free to wander. It could become coterminous tomorrow and we'd have no warning.
I'm fairly sure that the Gatekeepers have something to give them forewarning of that, actually. Divine portents, and the like.

DevotedPacifist

2016-06-25, 02:09 PM

Are warforged sorcerers designed to be sorcerers or was it unintentional?

Gildedragon

2016-06-25, 02:16 PM

Are warforged sorcerers designed to be sorcerers or was it unintentional?

Unintentional

DevotedPacifist

2016-06-25, 06:18 PM

How are warforged able to channel ki?

killem2

2016-06-25, 06:39 PM

AslanCross

2016-06-25, 07:09 PM

I have always wondered, with the abundance of very nasty dinosaurs how does any other animal in the regional actually live? They should be the apex predator of at least animals and maybe magical beasts.

Not so sure about how abundant they are. I can't really read my sources right now, but if I'm not mistaken they're mostly in Xen'drik and Talenta. They're domesticated on the Talenta plains, and in Xen'Drik the true apex predator is the giants.

DevotedPacifist

2016-06-25, 07:11 PM

Afgncaap5

2016-06-26, 01:20 AM

Do we have any details or write ups of the Rakashas Rajahs?

Dragon magazine apparently had a really big one that covered a lot of them in detail, but I've not ever read it. However, Keith Baker posted a list (which was composed by someone else, and contained additions of his own since the list was made before a few were mentioned and, since the WotC forums are gone, makes it the ideal one to link to.) If you scroll down through this article (http://keith-baker.com/dragonmarks-34-the-lords-of-dust/) you'll find a list of seventeen known Rajahs (many of which contain familiar names from other settings.)

(Note that this list isn't really complete either. It's missing Levistus, for example.)

Also how exactly does the Dragon Prophecy work?

This has been left vague so that the DM can use it however they wish, but we get a bit more information on it than most of Eberron's other big mysteries. Basically, the Draconic Prophecy is a long, rambling, and exhaustively thorough (to the point of being almost completely useless to the casual reader) set of prophecies that cover a lot of details. One of the frustrating things about it is that it's hard to tell if a particular event is a fulfillment of a part of the prophecy, or itself just another omen predicting the same part of the prophecy. Many humans... heck, many dragons... spend their entire life trying to decipher the meaning of small fragments of the prophecy. A few details of note...

-Dragons regard the prophecy as their own, or at least consider themselves experts on it, and many members of draconic society pay great heed to what they think the prophecy says (though they may disagree on what actually constitutes a fragment of the prophecy and what is nonsense that should be freely dismissed.)
-The pieces of prophecy can appear seemingly anywhere... runes on cave walls in Khyber, hidden in the formation of the stars or the ring of Syberis in the sky, in the ramblings of a particular drunk during a certain time of day once a week (but ONLY if he's drunk), in the dreams of unlikely prophets, in the growth of peculiar tree branches, and so on. Dragonmarks are, apparently, an aspect of the prophecy manifesting itself on biological creatures. This Freaks Dragons Out.
-For some unknown reason, the entire continent of Sarlona is completely uninvolved in the Prophecy. It is never mentioned. This Freaks Dragons Out.
-There's a prestige class that allows its member to gain the ability to turn their dragonmark into any dragonmark they want, and for it to manifest the powers of said dragonmark. This Freaks Dragons Out... and makes them want to kill the prophet who's taken this prestige class, since there's a chance that they're actually meddling in the shape of the prophecy.
-Speaking of the shape of the prophecy, it often takes the form of conditional statements. "If X then Y", for example. Many people who are aware of the prophecy have caught onto this and have tried to stage certain events to make other elements of the prophecy come true in a way that they find complimentary to their goals.
-There's some debate about whether the prophecy describes things as they MUST be and WILL be, or if it merely describes things as they MAY be and PROBABLY WILL be. Most are in the former camp, but a number of DMs prefer the second camp, as it gives players a chance to sort of struggle against the weight of destiny and have it be a winnable fight.

So... yeah. Not a lot concrete to work with, but i think enough for a decent start for any DM who wants to use it as a story element.

Mr Adventurer

2016-06-26, 06:43 AM

As noted by Regitnui, one of the design principles that the Eberron designed team stuck to was to avoid purely offensive powers for the marks. All but the aberrant marks have to have some kind of constructive use for society. Just leaving this here in the event anyone reading the thread wants to run a similar scenario in the future.

As I say, this thinking was a while ago. I'm not sure I'd come up with the same if I redesigned it. But yes, the idea was that the Mark of Death was abominable because it didn't follow those same ideas you mention.

Another idea would be to have effects that benefit from death nearby - Death Knell and the like - rather than being purely murder powers.

AslanCross

2016-06-26, 07:47 AM

No, Dal Quor was sent the furthest it could possibly be from Eberron, by means of destroying the moon it was tied to. The dragons responded to this show of power by the giants apocalyptically. Xoriat is still free to wander. It could become coterminous tomorrow and we'd have no warning.

That sounds epic, but I always thought it was the Giants' use of the blood magic against the elven rebellion that caused the dragons to break Xen'Drik. What's your source for this?

Fable Wright

2016-06-26, 08:16 AM

That sounds epic, but I always thought it was the Giants' use of the blood magic against the elven rebellion that caused the dragons to break Xen'Drik. What's your source for this?

Hm. Double checking my sources, we both appear to be correct in a way. Check page 9 of Secrets of Xen'drik. There was indeed an intervening elven rebellion, but the reason that the dragons acted was not the giants using blood magic—they had been doing that for a long time before the dragons intervened. The reason for the annihilation of giant society was the destruction of the thirteenth moon, or more accurately, a second ritual on par with the first. Having begun to the giants credibly after the destruction of the moon, the dragons actually had advanced warning, and had chosen to launch a preemptive strike to prevent the possible end of life on Eberron.

killem2

2016-06-26, 08:46 AM

With magic and magical weapons, I think they would not.

Unless they are animal companions I don't see how many animals or magical beasts obtain magical items.

AslanCross

2016-06-26, 08:49 AM

Hm. Double checking my sources, we both appear to be correct in a way. Check page 9 of Secrets of Xen'drik. There was indeed an intervening elven rebellion, but the reason that the dragons acted was not the giants using blood magic—they had been doing that for a long time before the dragons intervened. The reason for the annihilation of giant society was the destruction of the thirteenth moon, or more accurately, a second ritual on par with the first. Having begun to the giants credibly after the destruction of the moon, the dragons actually had advanced warning, and had chosen to launch a preemptive strike to prevent the possible end of life on Eberron.

I can't seem to find the bit about the giants destroying the moon, though. All I know is that there are hints of a thirteenth moon existing at some point in the past from clues in ancient sources, but I never came across anything saying the giants actually destroyed it.

Fable Wright

2016-06-27, 12:39 AM

I can't seem to find the bit about the giants destroying the moon, though. All I know is that there are hints of a thirteenth moon existing at some point in the past from clues in ancient sources, but I never came across anything saying the giants actually destroyed it.

Nearest source I have on hand is this:

And indeed, it was the Sul’at League that finally produced the Moon Breaker—the doomsday weapon that decimated the quori and sealed off their home plane of Dal Quor from Eberron.

I could dig for another source confirming it more explicitly, but I think this is fairly clear on the matter.

AslanCross

2016-06-27, 04:29 AM

Nearest source I have on hand is this:

I could dig for another source confirming it more explicitly, but I think this is fairly clear on the matter.

Thanks, apparently there was a series of (unofficial?) novels written on it, but the site is down. Sigh.

Tanuki Tales

2016-06-30, 02:52 PM

Are intelligent, humanoid shaped aberrations welcome anywhere on Khorvaire, or are they like monsters tend to be treated in other settings?

Hecuba

2016-06-30, 03:04 PM

Are intelligent, humanoid shaped aberrations welcome anywhere on Khorvaire, or are they like monsters tend to be treated in other settings?

You may need to clarify your question a bit: "intelligent, humanoid shaped aberrations" could reasonably cover all of Mind-Flayers, Changelings, and Elans (all of whom are treated vastly differently in pretty much any setting where they overlap).

Tanuki Tales

2016-06-30, 03:09 PM

You may need to clarify your question a bit: "intelligent, humanoid shaped aberrations" could reasonably cover all of Mind-Flayers, Changelings, and Elans (all of whom are treated vastly differently in pretty much any setting where they overlap).

Changelings aren't Aberrations though.

And yes, I meant things like Mindflayers, Ettercaps, Chokers, etc.

Hecuba

2016-06-30, 03:30 PM

Changelings aren't Aberrations though.
Sorry, mixing up my shapeshifters. I was thinking of Dopplegangers, but I would also have been messed up there (because they are M-Humanoid, unlike Greater Dopplegangers).

And yes, I meant things like Mindflayers, Ettercaps, Chokers, etc.
As a general rule, they are not on the list of socially accepted beings. They're generally associated with the Cults of the Dragon Below - which is to say, the scenery chewing crazy variety of evil that still exists in Eberron.

Mindflayers in particular were created as part of an attempted invasion from the Plane of Madness: like the other things associated with the Daelkyr, the Gatekeepers take a significant interest in keeping them down as much as possible.

Regitnui

2016-06-30, 03:37 PM

There books suggest a relationship between the moons/planes and the dragonmarks: notably in the Tower of the Twelve.
So if there is a correspondence what do you reckon it is; a couple houses seem obvious
Shadow: Mabar
Death: Doluruh
Heal: Irian
Etc...

There's a Dragonshard article for 3.5 on that. I think it's called The Moons of Eberron (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20050307a). Unrelated note; with 12 moons, Eberron is a hellscape for the reluctant therianthrope.

Are intelligent, humanoid shaped aberrations welcome anywhere on Khorvaire, or are they like monsters tend to be treated in other settings?

No. Drooam has a (N) mind flayer governing their main trade city, Greywall, but that's about it, really. Drooam would likely be the only place outside of Dragon Below cults where barely-sentient humanoids can walk down the street freely. Even Sharn, the most cosmopolitan city on the continent, has a strong tendency to treat goblinoids, orcs and medusas as second-class citizens, and those are practically player races compared to the things you want to know about.

"Things" is probably the most accurate description most of Khorvaire would give them, actually.

No, Dal Quor was sent the furthest it could possibly be from Eberron, by means of destroying the moon it was tied to. The dragons responded to this show of power by the giants apocalyptically. Xoriat is still free to wander. It could become coterminous tomorrow and we'd have no warning.

I don't recall the Moon Breaker, but that's a pretty effective way to blow a plane off its orbit. Maybe the planes are the moons, like the other planets in the Elder Scrolls series are said to be Daedric planes...

But the point I wanted to make; the Gatekeeper Seals keep Xoriat away. Those dimensional seals would have to be destroyed before the Plane of Madness became coterminous again. It's no small reason why the Gatekeepers are under attack by certain Cults of the Dragon Below, as well as the daelkyr themselves. Even if the daelkyr just wanted to go home at this point, they're locked in Khyber by the Gatekeepers' work.

Fable Wright

2016-06-30, 04:36 PM

Are intelligent, humanoid shaped aberrations welcome anywhere on Khorvaire, or are they like monsters tend to be treated in other settings?

Droaam is part of Khorvaire. Chokers would probably be accepted in cosmopolitan Droaam, while Ettercaps are liable to find some form of acceptance in its more tribal regions. By extension, both might find acceptance in the Daask-controlled areas of Sharn's lower levels; if Daask is telling you that the ettercap in the suit is handling your payday loan debt, you're going to treat that ettercap as a reasoning entity with agency and capacity.

Mind flayers would have to be vetted by the Daughters of Sora Kell before finding true acceptance in Droaam; they're dangerously smart, and their agendas could be detrimental to the state. However, once approved, they're some of the smartest and thus most valuable assets that Droaam has access to, and are easily welcomed as local overlords.

No. Drooam has a (N) mind flayer governing their main trade city, Greywall, but that's about it, really. Drooam would likely be the only place outside of Dragon Below cults where barely-sentient humanoids can walk down the street freely. Even Sharn, the most cosmopolitan city on the continent, has a strong tendency to treat goblinoids, orcs and medusas as second-class citizens, and those are practically player races compared to the things you want to know about.

Depends where in Sharn you live. Daask-controlled areas in the undercity would likely accept chokers or mindflayers, much as they accept even medusae. Granted, in most of the city, a medusa would have to wear blinders, but there are areas where they can walk around unbound and find some form of acceptance. Mind flayers could find a similar level of acceptance, and again, the lowest levels of Sharn may well be able to accept ettercaps and chokers as comrades as long as they have coin.

Tanuki Tales

2016-06-30, 05:01 PM

So they couldn't operate as mercenaries through House Tharashk?

CowardlyPaladin

2016-06-30, 05:36 PM

Could you go into more detail about the Eberron 4E version of Baator vs. the standard version?

Also how is homosexuality viewed in the various places in Eberron, or is there too little information?

Gildedragon

2016-06-30, 06:13 PM

Could you go into more detail about the Eberron 4E version of Baator vs. the standard version?
in 3.5 Baator is not a part of the Eberron cosmology

Also how is homosexuality viewed in the various places in Eberron, or is there too little information?
it is not given any thought. Iirc the Keith Baker said that that sort of thing was explicitly not taken about because Eberron was meant to be a world where all player characters are welcome.

AslanCross

2016-06-30, 06:29 PM

But the point I wanted to make; the Gatekeeper Seals keep Xoriat away. Those dimensional seals would have to be destroyed before the Plane of Madness became coterminous again. It's no small reason why the Gatekeepers are under attack by certain Cults of the Dragon Below, as well as the daelkyr themselves. Even if the daelkyr just wanted to go home at this point, they're locked in Khyber by the Gatekeepers' work.

And it takes a whole lot of magic energy to keep the seals running. I read that it takes 200 spell levels worth of magic every year to make sure that they stay online. @_@

Fable Wright

2016-06-30, 10:26 PM

Could you go into more detail about the Eberron 4E version of Baator vs. the standard version?

Here is the basic version of 4e Eberron Baator. (https://threads-of-invasion.obsidianportal.com/wikis/baator) Come back with any questions after browsing that.

Thurbane

2016-06-30, 10:35 PM

Is there actual stats for Woeforged anywhere? If not official, any homebrew?

Afgncaap5

2016-07-01, 02:40 AM

Is there actual stats for Woeforged anywhere? If not official, any homebrew?

I don't believe there were any stats for them... in fact, I seem to recall a thread on this very board where two sides argued vehemently on some issue that could've been resolved if we *did* have the stats (I think it somehow involved Necromancers, Undead, and Living Constructs but can't remember the details.)

The same thread had someone suggest that the Woeforged were "probably" just regular Warforged who were either members of a certain prestige class or who had certain templates applied to them, which seems reasonable, though I'm always in favor of making new homebrew options for new story elements.

-Edit-

Found the thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?396502-Can-a-necromancer-raise-a-construct)! And it turns out I even made a lackluster, slapdash Woeforged Template (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18796287&postcount=125) that's... honestly, not that great to look at (even if I'm kinda proud of it suggesting that the creature type might change to Construct (Augmented Construct (Living Construct))). Weird I didn't remember, but then again the other options in that thread are probably better ways to go. One suggests giving Warforged the Tomb Tainted Soul feat chain, for instance (which isn't a bad way to go about it.)

CowardlyPaladin

2016-07-01, 05:15 AM

Here is the basic version of 4e Eberron Baator. (https://threads-of-invasion.obsidianportal.com/wikis/baator) Come back with any questions after browsing that.

Huh so this Asmodeus was actually a prisoner. The story really implies the Sovereigns were real and active and then left rather than always being distant and unknown, is their more info on that?

So this Asmodeus isn't a deity and doesn't have anything to do with the blood War, and seems Wary of the Lords of Dust. IS there anything else different between him and the standards version? And does this Baator rotate around Ebberon like the other 13 planes or is it just an extra?

Fable Wright

2016-07-01, 06:19 AM

Huh so this Asmodeus was actually a prisoner. The story really implies the Sovereigns were real and active and then left rather than always being distant and unknown, is their more info on that?

Many angels believe they were created by the Sovereigns. None of them has ever seen a Sovereign, or been in their presence. Asmodeus wasn't imprisoned by a sovereign; he was imprisoned by other Angels, his peers.

So this Asmodeus isn't a deity and doesn't have anything to do with the blood War, and seems Wary of the Lords of Dust. IS there anything else different between him and the standards version? And does this Baator rotate around Ebberon like the other 13 planes or is it just an extra?

1. He's a prisoner.
2. Very very few people know he or the Hells exist.
3. He has very little power and influence to work with at the moment.
4. He was incapable of acting on the Prime Material Plane until the Mourning happened, 4 years ago.
5. He has no relation to Shavarath or the conflicts thereon, no.
6. Baator is not a plane. It's a demiplane. It's not tied to a moon, it doesn't become coterminous, and it doesn't have manifest zones.
7. He's wary of everyone. Silver Flame could squash his cozy operation like a bug. The Lords of Dust have everything he's trying to get. The Quori have resources he can't fathom. The Daelkyr are liable to mess up the stream of souls something fierce. If it's an Eberron big bad? Asmodeus is wary of it. Unless that 'big bad' is the Aurum, in which case, they're easy marks.
8. No one in Baator was ever a mortal. Ever. Souls aren't turned into devils; they're used as bargaining chips and hoarded by Asmodeus as a power source.
9. There is no Pact Primeval. Angels can and would put a stop to Asmodeus's operations, he's not shielded from the Undying Court, and the Silver Flame could easily bind him. He's a rogue operator, not the institution.

AslanCross

2016-07-01, 07:18 AM

Is there actual stats for Woeforged anywhere? If not official, any homebrew?

They were never officially statted out. The easiest way I can imagine them working is that they are simply the same as warforged, but are healed by negative energy instead. Making them undead also works.

ExLibrisMortis

2016-07-01, 07:56 AM

And it takes a whole lot of magic energy to keep the seals running. I read that it takes 200 spell levels worth of magic every year to make sure that they stay online. @_@
That's not that bad, that's a first-level spell every day, except on weekends and holidays. Any random apprentice can provide that much magic.

Weird I didn't remember, but then again the other options in that thread are probably better ways to go. One suggests giving Warforged the Tomb Tainted Soul feat chain, for instance (which isn't a bad way to go about it.)
A funny high-level option is the Renegade Mastermaker PrC, combined with the necropolitan template. Your type changes to Undead (Living Construct), which is... hard to use properly. For one, the subtype refers to overriding the construct type abilities several times, but you don't have those. I personally prefer to give them Con --, despite the subtype.

The Dragon Prophecy reminds me of the Pattern in the Wheel of Time series.

Afgncaap5

2016-07-01, 04:09 PM

The Dragon Prophecy reminds me of the Pattern in the Wheel of Time series.

I don't know if the Pattern was a direct inspiration, but indirectly there's a lot of similarities. I think one of the design goals we're never really told about Eberron is for it to have a lot of the big picture world elements that you see in epic fantasy worlds that aren't easily replicated with D&D rules. I could be wrong in that, and my knowledge of the Wheel of Time is limited to what I read in the first book (which, if memory serves, was actually a book designed to hold the first half of the actual first book) and what's been spoiled for me online, but from my limited understanding there's a lot. I'd liken it more to convergent evolution than purposeful reference, though.

CowardlyPaladin

2016-07-01, 06:09 PM

Many angels believe they were created by the Sovereigns. None of them has ever seen a Sovereign, or been in their presence. Asmodeus wasn't imprisoned by a sovereign; he was imprisoned by other Angels, his peers.

1. He's a prisoner.
2. Very very few people know he or the Hells exist.
3. He has very little power and influence to work with at the moment.
4. He was incapable of acting on the Prime Material Plane until the Mourning happened, 4 years ago.
5. He has no relation to Shavarath or the conflicts thereon, no.
6. Baator is not a plane. It's a demiplane. It's not tied to a moon, it doesn't become coterminous, and it doesn't have manifest zones.
7. He's wary of everyone. Silver Flame could squash his cozy operation like a bug. The Lords of Dust have everything he's trying to get. The Quori have resources he can't fathom. The Daelkyr are liable to mess up the stream of souls something fierce. If it's an Eberron big bad? Asmodeus is wary of it. Unless that 'big bad' is the Aurum, in which case, they're easy marks.
8. No one in Baator was ever a mortal. Ever. Souls aren't turned into devils; they're used as bargaining chips and hoarded by Asmodeus as a power source.
9. There is no Pact Primeval. Angels can and would put a stop to Asmodeus's operations, he's not shielded from the Undying Court, and the Silver Flame could easily bind him. He's a rogue operator, not the institution.

Huh, that is really cool, i like Asmodeus as this minor power who is trying to get by, it takes away some of the Villain Sue Quality that he has gained over the years in D&D proper, very cool. So now that he kinda sorta can interact with Eberron again, does he want to be worshiped as a god again or what?

Unrelated question, I heard that in Eberron the Neogi were once dwarves, can you go into more detail about that?

RedMage125

2016-07-01, 07:23 PM

Unrelated question, I heard that in Eberron the Neogi were once dwarves, can you go into more detail about that?

Here is everything you asked for and more (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebee/20050704a).

CowardlyPaladin

2016-07-01, 09:04 PM

Here is everything you asked for and more (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebee/20050704a).

Wow thats really cool, it is remarkable how much more fleshed out the setting is once you find all of the information that is spread throughout the internet. I really like the uncertainty with the mindflayers, that was cool.

Fable Wright

2016-07-01, 11:40 PM

Huh, that is really cool, i like Asmodeus as this minor power who is trying to get by, it takes away some of the Villain Sue Quality that he has gained over the years in D&D proper, very cool. So now that he kinda sorta can interact with Eberron again, does he want to be worshiped as a god again or what?

From what we can tell, he wants out. Everything else is secondary to that. He wants enough souls to power a blast as strong as a second Mourning to blow a hole that will let him and his comrades actually get out. Right now, with significant effort on the part of him and the other Lords of the Nine, they can send one or two Devils out through overloading the barriers on the demiplane. He'd rather see freedom himself sometime, but he's too powerful for that. When he's free... well, that depends on the DM. He might want to be worshipped. He might have a new perspective on life and just try to eke by. He might want revenge against the Angels that imprisoned him, and seeks to build and Eldritch Machine powered by souls to tear all the Angels from the heavens. Who knows?

CowardlyPaladin

2016-07-02, 12:38 AM

So this Asmodeus is basically completely different, honestly I think if I run an Eberron game I would make his forces not Devils (and instead have the Devils being from Khyber or the planes) because he and his dudes seem more morally ambiguous than actively evil, and apart from the name they don't seem to have much in common. That is a very interesting dynamic. So he doesn't have anything in the way of allies.

What is a Woeforged?

Gildedragon

2016-07-02, 12:46 AM

Undead(?) warforged

KillingAScarab

2016-07-02, 02:01 AM

Fable Wright

2016-07-02, 02:08 AM

I found a 3.5 Eberron play-by-post game starting up, but I only have the 4th edition Player's Guide and Campaign Setting. If I were to make a character for it, I would definitely pick up the 3.X Campaign Setting, but I'm curious as to how much of the 4th edition material I would need to "unlearn" if I were to read some of that in the meantime. Was there a minor advance in the timeline between editions, the way there was from 2nd to 3rd edition Forgotten Realms? Planes were obviously handled differently, but what about the nations? Also, I gather artificers weren't making constructs quite as often as a daily power would allow?

Eberron never advances its timeline beyond 998 YK. Unlearn the Eberron Player's Guide. All of it. That said, the Campaign Setting is incredibly faithful to 3.5 Eberron. Just remember that Feyspires don't exist, Magebred humans in the Mournlands probably don't exist, planes didn't have added titles like 'shadowfell' or 'feywild', and Artificers had all their crafting done beforehand. It took a while, but the constructs would stick around permanently unless they were destroyed, so a specialist could have 4-5 tagging along and getting buffed by wands and such. And that's pretty much it, really.

CowardlyPaladin

2016-07-02, 03:56 AM

Undead(?) warforged

......what?

KillingAScarab

2016-07-02, 04:28 AM

Eberron never advances its timeline beyond 998 YK. Unlearn the Eberron Player's Guide. All of it. That said, the Campaign Setting is incredibly faithful to 3.5 Eberron. Just remember that Feyspires don't exist, Magebred humans in the Mournlands probably don't exist, planes didn't have added titles like 'shadowfell' or 'feywild'...Oh, and Dragonborn probably weren't a thing in Q'barra. Or were they? 3.5 had that explosion of people making Dragonborn of Bahamut (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060105b), toward the end of publication. Was there Eberron lore for that?

...and Artificers had all their crafting done beforehand. It took a while, but the constructs would stick around permanently unless they were destroyed, so a specialist could have 4-5 tagging along and getting buffed by wands and such.In hindsight, if I had ever used my 4th edition Eberron books, artificer daily summon powers would have to be treated as putting together the Megazord (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAM75ntX9HE).

Fable Wright

2016-07-02, 08:00 AM

Oh, and Dragonborn probably weren't a thing in Q'barra. Or were they? 3.5 had that explosion of people making Dragonborn of Bahamut (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060105b), toward the end of publication. Was there Eberron lore for that?

The initial fluff was somewhat weak on that front—one just became a Dragonborn of Eberron rather than of Bahamut, campaigning against the forces of Khyber rather than Tiamat. That said, Q'Barra Dragonborn make a very good amount of sense, which I'd call one of the few positive changes 4e Eberron made. Q'Barra is a nation of lizardfolk, after all; at the very least, it wouldn't be hard to just refluff Dragonborn of some variety as a peculiar tribe of lizardfolk, even running base 3.5e.

AslanCross

2016-07-02, 08:09 AM

......what?

Mentioned in passing. They're negative-aligned warforged who appear to be decaying and rusting, and yet they're not dying. They're found somewhere in the Mournland.

KillingAScarab

2016-07-04, 12:20 AM

Still don't have a 3.5 copy, yet. The character idea I'm entertaining for a Sharn campaign is a kalashtar psychic rogue, and I'm thinking that the character is down in Lower Dura acting like a psionic Robin Hood. However, the realities of 3.5 have hit me and I realize at 3rd level I can be competent enough to be one of the Merry Men. Is there already a group in Lower Dura my character might trust (or, more accurately, might be persuaded to trust) to oppose the Inspired, or would good-ish thieves which are already causing trouble for their agents have to do? There's a kalashtar in Upper Dura, but that NPC seems to be content to be an oracle, and I don't think this character would be content.

Related question, at what age does an Adar (Adari? Adarish? I don't know the demonym) human child receive a quori to become a kalashtar?

torrasque666

2016-07-04, 01:42 AM

Related question, at what age does an Adar (Adari? Adarish? I don't know the demonym) human child receive a quori to become a kalashtar?
You.... you don't become a kalashtar. You are a kalashtar. Its a sort of genetic-but-kinda-not-wibbly-wobbly thing. Each Quori that is bonded to a bloodline has a connection with each member of the bloodline (the first to find this out is noted as being aware of the experiences of each, but it took more of an effort to communicate with either). In other words, a Kalashtar is bonded to their Quori at birth.
The Chosen/Inspired however, from Riedra, are like pseudo-Kalashtar in that they are selectively bred bloodlines that a Quori can possess at will. They are not born with a bonded Quori. Any Quori can possess a Chosen, but only one can do so with no saving throw.

KillingAScarab

2016-07-04, 03:35 AM

You.... you don't become a kalashtar. You are a kalashtar. Its a sort of genetic-but-kinda-not-wibbly-wobbly thing. Each Quori that is bonded to a bloodline has a connection with each member of the bloodline (the first to find this out is noted as being aware of the experiences of each, but it took more of an effort to communicate with either). In other words, a Kalashtar is bonded to their Quori at birth.Oh. I had misinterpreted this post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20850189&postcount=64) to mean that there were never any more than the initial number of kalashtar at a given point in time. So, anyone in that bloodline just has a portion of one then?

torrasque666

2016-07-04, 03:49 AM

Oh. I had misinterpreted this post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20850189&postcount=64) to mean that there were never any more than the initial number of kalashtar at a given point in time. So, anyone in that bloodline just has a portion of one then?
Can communicate with a portion yes. But those quori are spread so thin that they can't exactly communicate directly with a descendant. (Races of Eberron, 66. Most of the earlier post was from the same book, previous page) Basically, each Quori has a presence in a Kalashtar's mind, but at the same time is spread so thin that the presence on the end of the Kalashtar is barely noticable if at all. However, the Quori is getting memories and experiences from every single Kalashtar descendant it has.

Its weird and no one would fault you for not fully grasping it. There's only so much that I can say on the matter short of copypastaing an entire passage from a non-OGL book.

KillingAScarab

2016-07-04, 03:57 AM

Its weird and no one would fault you for not fully grasping it. There's only so much that I can say on the matter short of copypastaing an entire passage from a non-OGL book.Thanks. Well, are there any stats given to how many kalashtar would exist now? I see Kasshta Keep has a population of 18,000 but nothing on the percentage which would be kalashtar.

torrasque666

2016-07-04, 04:05 AM

Thanks. Well, are there any stats given to how many kalashtar would exist now? I see Kasshta Keep has a population of 18,000 but nothing on the percentage which would be kalashtar.
At least 144,000. Adar has a population of 320,000 inhabitants, 45% of which are Kalashtar.

Deadkitten

2016-07-04, 02:53 PM

If you went around killing Kalashtar of a specific lineage, would the quori that each of them share become more and more capable of communicating?

RedMage125

2016-07-04, 05:52 PM

If you went around killing Kalashtar of a specific lineage, would the quori that each of them share become more and more capable of communicating?

That much is not clear, even the Quori of the Dreaming Dark do not know the answer.

But if you managed to kill ALL the kalashtar of a specific lineage, that quori itself would be dead (P.S. this has already happened with one bloodline, or so the kalashtar believe, since none of that quori's bloodline seem to be around. Perhaps one still exists, imprisoned or petrified somewhere.

KillingAScarab

2016-07-05, 10:41 AM

But if you managed to kill ALL the kalashtar of a specific lineage, that quori itself would be dead (P.S. this has already happened with one bloodline, or so the kalashtar believe, since none of that quori's bloodline seem to be around. Perhaps one still exists, imprisoned or petrified somewhere.Woah. So, does this mean the Inspired would be more interested in killing a kalashtar, or interrogating them for access codes to the Zion mainframethe knowledge required to reach Adar settlements?

Fable Wright

2016-07-05, 11:01 AM

Woah. So, does this mean the Inspired would be more interested in killing a kalashtar, or interrogating them for access codes to the Zion mainframethe knowledge required to reach Adar settlements?

Killing. They're fairly sure, IIRC, that if they kill all members of a traitor bloodline, the spirit bonded to the Kalashtar will have to return to Dal Quor to be reclaimed by the Dreaming Dark.

Dragolord

2016-07-05, 12:41 PM

Killing. They're fairly sure, IIRC, that if they kill all members of a traitor bloodline, the spirit bonded to the Kalashtar will have to return to Dal Quor to be reclaimed by the Dreaming Dark.

That's the idea. When Quori, no matter their alignment, are destroyed, they reform on Dal Quor. If all of the Kalashtar of a particular lineage were to die, then their spirit would be reborn, and could then either be captured or reclaimed by the Dreaming Dark.

CowardlyPaladin

2016-07-08, 06:41 PM

Regitnui

2016-07-09, 03:52 AM

Apart from their destruction and the enslavement of the elves, any word on what the Giant empires were actually like? Was their a dominant Giant race, did they have their own pantheon, what was their relationship to the prophecy, etc

They were 'progenitor' giants. They're consistently referred to as titans, with the implication that the modern giant species are in various stages of degeneration from the 'titan'. Though I don't recall the ordning being mentioned in 3.5, it's certainly a possible origin for it; the various levels on the ordning being the least to most sophisticated giants. Do note, however, that even the storm giants at the top of the ordning haven't got even half of the magic and skill that the Giant Empire had at its peak. They have the most of what remains, but its barely enough to scare the other giants and inhabitants into not challenging them. A PC who genuinely discovered new, powerful titan magic would have to face off against storm giants to keep it.

There's little word on their relation to the Prophecy, but no doubt some of their greatest sages studied it, as with all races.

There's some implication that, like the Egyptians and Aztecs, they had a god-emperor; Cul'sir is the name of the most famous and last titan emperor. The modern giants have their own pantheon, but it's unclear if that pantheon has any relation to that of the titans.

Toaau

2016-07-23, 07:35 AM

Regitnui

2016-07-23, 09:43 AM

It's a rough hierarchy

Rakshasa Rajahs is another name for Overlords. They are now sealed tighter than a oil drum filled with radioactive political promises soaked in oil in the Marianas Trench the day after the president's been elected inside prisons made of dead coatls. Some have looser bindings that others; Bal Shalor is the Shadow in the Flame and can influence followers of the Church dedicated to that Silver Flame.

Lords of Dust are the strongest fiends left with the ability to move freely. Where the Overlords (Over-Lords) are the closest thing to gods Eberron has, being around level 60, the Lords of Dust are merely Epic level; CR 20-30. They have in motion any number of schemes to control the world, mostly via manipulating the Draconic Prophecy.

Rakshasas are the most common type of fiend on Eberron. They are the bog-standard tiger-fiend in the Monster Manual. The Overlords are called Rakshasa Rajahs only because they lead, or are Rajahs of, many of these fiends.

Kalashtar are related to an entirely different ancient conspiracy; they are a race of humans who are merged with quori spirits from Dal Quor, the plane of Dreams/Nightmares. They have 13-1 lineages, and every other Quori, serving the Dreaming Dark (il-Lashtavar) want to kill the kalashtarand reintegrate the rebel quori spirits into Dal Quor.

Quori also live in mortal fear of the Turning of the Age. Though Quori can't die, the Turning of the Age will see Il-Lashtavar transformed into il-Yannah, the Dreaming Light. All quori will me reabsorbed and reborn into new forms, losing their old identities. The current LE regime seeks to control the dreams of mortals, making them dream one consistent dream an hopefully smoothing out the chaos on the edges of Dal Quor that they think forces the Turning of the Age.

The kalashtar, and their allies follow the Path of Light, a series of meditations and prayers that they think speed up the Turning of the Age. Other kalashtar, called atavists, fight the Dreaming Dark directly, thwarting their schemes in the mortal world. The Quori control Riedra, basically North Korea on psionically-enforced steroids, and look to extend their dominion to Khorvaire and, eventually, the rest of the world.

Gildedragon

2016-07-23, 09:52 AM

Okay, I'm really confused. How to the Lords of Dust, Rakashas, Overlords, Kalshatar and Rahjahs all work? All I've worked out is that they're connected by being children of Khyber and some of them are trapped Devils; all the rest of the fluff has melted together in my brain.

Incidentally, are there any decent, free "Eberron 101" things online? Or GitP threads like this for other settings?

The kalashtar are not children of Khyber

Lords of Dust: it's a loose cult/organization dedicated (roughly) to free the Overlords (Aka the Rajahs)... Or supplant them; their degree of collaboration is... Suspect. Perhaps more than a cult or organization "lords of Dust" is the collective noun for the strongest canniest fiends on Eberron (and freeing/supplamting an overlord, and collaborating with other strong fiends is the path to strength)
The Lords of Dust is mostly made out of Rakshasas: outsiders created (allegedly) by Khyber, that cannot be destroyed like, only made to reincarnate, bound, or (possibly) redeemed

The Overlords are, essentially, Elder Evils created (split off?) by Khyber, they are contained by the couatls' effort and self sacrifice; and cannot be easily freed or rebound.
You watched Angel? Think Illiria at the height of her power.

Kalashtar are another can of worms.
Refugee-rebels from the (now, temporarily, evil) plane of dreams that bound themselves to human bloodlines (forever changing them into something else) to prevent themselves from being remade into evil.

Toaau

2016-07-23, 05:07 PM

AslanCross

2016-07-23, 06:41 PM

Okay, that makes sense. Forgot that evil likes to have pretentious titles that all mean one or two things. And I was completely off-track about the Kalashtar.
So, question time.
1)Would I be correct in assuming that the... Lords of Dust(?) would be interested in freeing the Overlords? Or is there a reason for them *not* to, or do they just not much care unless it benefits them?
1a)And who *is* trying to free the Overlords?
2)Ah, so the Quori/Kalashtar thing is not the LoD thing. And that must be the one that is the "unfathomable motive" big bad, yes? Hmm...

1. The Lords of Dust have various and sundry goals. Some merely want power and influence in the mortal world. Others want to free the Overlords from Khyber. At least one of them (Durastoran Wyrmbreaker) is actively leading a campaign against the dragons.
Here is a list of the known Lords of Dust. (http://eberron.wikia.com/wiki/The_Lords_of_Dust)

1a. Wyrmbreaker in particular is devoted to Bel Shalor (the fiend imprisoned in the Silver Flame), and wants to set him free. Mordakhesh the Shadowsword also wants to free his master, Rak Tulkhesh.

2. The Quori are the native spirits of Dal Quor. They're completely different---the generic term for them would be psionic dream entities. The thing about Dal Quor is that it goes through a regular cycle of extinction and renewal, where all the quori are destroyed and then remade. The current leaders of the Quori are the Dreaming Dark, and they are trying to destroy the renegade quori who fled Dal Quor long ago and joined their spirits with those of humans, creating the Kalashtar. The Quori who became Kalashtar are kind of "spread out" among the Kalashtar, so that a Kalashtar only has a fragment of the original spirit. If you killed all the Kalashtar of that lineage, the Quori who shared their spirits would die too. The Dreaming Dark now control their own version of the Kalashtar---the Inspired. However, the Inspired are specially-bred human/elf/fiend-blooded hosts who are each possessed by a single Quori entity. The Inspired are in control of Riedra, a totalitarian society in Sarlona.

Gildedragon

2016-07-23, 06:52 PM

1)Would I be correct in assuming that the... Lords of Dust(?) would be interested in freeing the Overlords? Or is there a reason for them *not* to, or do they just not much care unless it benefits them?
For the most part: yes
But each have their own goals, and freeing the Overlords might not be in their best interest if their goal is to take over a part of eberron, or be the biggest baddest thing around. Also some C(razier than average)LoDs are probably gunning for taking over an Overlord.
The number of Overlords is fixed, but the position can, theoretically, be stolen.

2)Ah, so the Quori/Kalashtar thing is not the LoD thing. And that must be the one that is the "unfathomable motive" big bad, yes? Hmm...
The Dreaming Dark... Which sorta is an entity/god/manifestation of the plane's will... Also the Quori are small fry in their plane

Regitnui

2016-07-24, 01:48 AM

Also the Quori are small fry in their plane

The quori are to Dal Quor what angels are to Syrania; they're the plane's main inhabitants. While there are other creatures on Dal Quor like hobs, spellshadows and succubi, the quori as a species far outnumber them, and the various types of quori have various levels of power. The top level is on par with solar angels, and can speak directly to the Dreaming Dark without being annihilated. There are (of course) 13-1 of them, one having discovered the Turning of the Age and been exiled with her followers to eventually join with humans and become the kalashtar. Her name was Taratai.

No, don't ask me for a list of the various power levels of quori.

Fable Wright

2016-07-24, 03:24 AM

No, don't ask me for a list of the various power levels of quori.

For the record, it's Kalaraq (CR 20) > Hashalaq (CR 9) > Usvapnas (CR 11, aka Dream Master Quori) = Du'ulora (CR 11) > Tsucora (CR 7) > Tsureva (CR 5). Usvapnas and Du'ulora are weird in that they don't directly have command over most Quori; they're spies and generals, respectively, meaning they're not involved with Quori as directly as Kalaraq and Hashalaq are.

Also, surprisingly, the -1 isn't Tarantai. She was apparently ripped apart or changed enough that the Dreaming Dark could create a replacement for her after the last of her line disappeared in the completion of Adar's shroud. The -1 is Ulakhun, the Kalaraq general who has been trapped in a gemstone in Kasshta keep for the last 1098 years.

Regitnui

2016-07-24, 03:52 AM

For the record, it's Kalaraq (CR 20) > Hashalaq (CR 9) > Usvapnas (CR 11, aka Dream Master Quori) = Du'ulora (CR 11) > Tsucora (CR 7) > Tsureva (CR 5). Usvapnas and Du'ulora are weird in that they don't directly have command over most Quori; they're spies and generals, respectively, meaning they're not involved with Quori as directly as Kalaraq and Hashalaq are.

Also, surprisingly, the -1 isn't Tarantai. She was apparently ripped apart or changed enough that the Dreaming Dark could create a replacement for her after the last of her line disappeared in the completion of Adar's shroud. The -1 is Ulakhun, the Kalaraq general who has been trapped in a gemstone in Kasshta keep for the last 1098 years.

Thanks. I though Taratai's fate was up for debate, but apparently not.

Fable Wright

2016-07-24, 07:30 AM

Thanks. I though Taratai's fate was up for debate, but apparently not.

What happened to Taratai's line is not up for debate. The fate of Taratai, however, is. Was she reduced to nothing, allowing the Dreaming Dark to fill a gap? Is she being used to power the shroud of Adar like the Coatls bind the silver flame? Did she return to Dal Quor after the last of her line were used up, and reincarnated as a Tsureva who still has vague memories of rebellion? Is she bound in a way to all the Kalashtar, and may yet find scions among mixed bloodlines? All up to the particular DM. We do know that she's no longer of the baker's dozen, but whether that's because she stopped being a quori, reclaimed by the Dark, or something else entirely is up in the air.

Keld Denar

2016-07-28, 11:42 PM

Fable Wright

2016-07-29, 01:55 AM

JackPhoenix

2016-07-30, 02:55 PM

Are there any antagonistic were/shifter organizations? I'm planning a one-off game for some newbies and I want to have something to kind of introduce the players to some of the multitude of factions. I'm likely setting it on a Lightning Rail train with intrigue between Orien and Lyrander, with a bit of were/Silver Flame conflict and some anti-warforged racism. I know I could just make something up, but I'd prefer to keep cannon in case I set future games in Eberron (which I'd absolutely love!).

There's the Dark Pack, group of lycanthropes living in Droaam. Silver Flame's Lycanthropic Purge was very effective, there aren't many werebeasts left on Eberron. Some fled to Lammania with the help of druids and some less zealous Purified. There may be smaller surviving packs or lone lycanthropes, but no big organisation. Dark Pack and the origin of lycanthropy is featured in Keith Baker's Queen of Stone, if you want some inspiration, but novels are not canon.

As for shifters, I'm not aware of any antagonistic organization, but as humanoids, they can find employment with pretty much anyone who looks for some muscle. For example, there are some hired shifter thugs in the introductory adventure in ECS.

That said, racism is a thing in Eberron, shifters are often prejudiced against, just like many other "monstrous" races, not just by the Silver Flame (Puritans in particular), but even by others, who often consider them dumb, violent savages. They often draw unwanted attention and could get into troubles even if they don't want to.

Regitnui

2016-07-31, 04:53 AM

As a whole, shifters are peaceful,, wilderness folk. They tend not to be involved in grand political gestures (outside of the Reaches) because they just don't get involved. They are, however, also remarkably likely to be employed as generic rent-a-thugs.

In the proposed scenario, it's more likely the Silver Flame people are the aggressive ones, especially if theyre in the Aundarian Puritan faction of the religion. The shifters would likely have been innocent of anything the Church accuses them of; which isn't the same as being innocent in general.

Xerres

2016-08-01, 03:16 PM

In the proposed scenario, it's more likely the Silver Flame people are the aggressive ones, especially if theyre in the Aundarian Puritan faction of the religion. The shifters would likely have been innocent of anything the Church accuses them of; which isn't the same as being innocent in general.

I just wanted to pop in to suggest that if someone is running a game in Eberron, its a good idea to ease off the gas a bit in portraying the Church of the Silver Flame as zealots or racists. It was an unfortunate effect of the Campaign Setting to put focus on it, and made the problem seem WAY worse than it really is. The Church of the Silver Flame is one of the greatest forces for the protection of the innocent in all of Eberron, and its corrupt aspects highlighted only to show that even such a positive force in the world has people that abuse its power and fail to live up to its ideals.

Its true that many Shifters were targeted and killed during the Lycanthrope Purge, in large part because they were easier to hunt and kill than true Lycanthropes, but when it came to light that they weren't true Lycanthropes it was denounced and the Church no longer condones it at all. Definitely still hard feelings for shifters who have stories of their ancestors being killed, but its not an active idea anymore.

That's not to say you shouldn't ever portray the Church as corrupt, but I see people assuming that's the standard instead of the rare exception and it bums me out. The Sovereign Host and the Blood of Vol are much more corrupt and abusive to their followers, but Dariznu and Krozen just stand out for being such jerks.

Gildedragon

2016-08-01, 03:28 PM

Question Xerres:
Where do you get that the Sovereign Host is more corrupt? It seems very non-hierarchical to the point that it isn't the Church of the SH that's corrupt but individual churches and priests whose influence doesn't reach as far that of high ranking and corrupt Silver Flamers

Not that I dislike the Silver Flame. I very much like it as the bastion of Good that's a bit stained by mortal follies
Even the majority E members of the SF work for the "Greater Good" or for the Status-Quo it's just their means that are super sketch. Only a minority seek to advance cosmic Evil

I ask because Ive been wracking my head trying to come up with a good SH conspiracy and they seem so... Milquetoast

Xerres

2016-08-01, 03:39 PM

Eh, probably overstated it. Going off some statements from Keith Baker, but that's not canon. Most I remember of Sovereign Host wrong-doing is defacing monuments to other Gods and otherwise kind of 'bullying' other religions into becoming extensions/facets of the Host. Really I think the extent of most Sovereign Host 'corruption' was just on the individual level, charging for church services and just selfish priests. Lack of oversight makes it easier, but it also doesn't have the impact of major events like the Lycanthrope Purge. Or Dariznu burning people at the stake. That guy is pretty much always my #1 person to kill.

I'm totally down for the Church of the Silver Flame being corrupt, but the book gives people the wrong impression, and it just seems common to think of the Church as being zealots first.

Zombimode

2016-08-01, 04:35 PM

Xerres

2016-08-01, 06:50 PM

Thats... really not the impression I got from Faithes of Eberron. Whats your source on this?

Just went digging into Faiths of Eberron and some posts from Keith. Found the bits about there being more corrupt Sovereign Host priests than those of the Silver Flame (Just Keith, so non-canon, though I think the Dragonshards are canon so I can say there are more of them in Breland than anywhere else.), but while the Faiths of Eberron book does note that they integrate other faiths in by adopting your practices until its their practices and claiming that whatever you're worshiping is actually the Host (more or less), I can't find anything about defacing monuments to other religions.

I'm sure I've seen it, and I'll keep looking for it, but its probably a non-canon source like a novel. So I was wrong about that, canon-wise, the Sovereign Host religion is fairly chill.

Silver Flame is still better though. :smalltongue:

Eisfalken

2016-08-01, 11:19 PM

Are there any antagonistic were/shifter organizations? I'm planning a one-off game for some newbies and I want to have something to kind of introduce the players to some of the multitude of factions. I'm likely setting it on a Lightning Rail train with intrigue between Orien and Lyrander, with a bit of were/Silver Flame conflict and some anti-warforged racism. I know I could just make something up, but I'd prefer to keep cannon in case I set future games in Eberron (which I'd absolutely love!).

There's no specific groups only for were/shifter folks, but your idea is good meat for an attack by the Ashbound. Long story short, the Ashbound are essentially a sect of druid-types (which could actually include nature-oriented clerics and others, of course) who believe that civilization is a cancer on the face of Eberron, and arcane magic is the greatest contribution to that cancer. They do have members who are moderate, but the Player's Guide specifically notes that many Ashbound use violence to destroy whatever they consider to be the most destructive elements of society/civilization.

I can definitely see a group of Ashbound deciding rationally that the best way to stop the spread of civilization is to target transportation, starting with the lightning rails, and moving on to airships and other vehicles as well. Maybe frame rivals and enemies of each group, that kind of thing. Have a Silver Flame inquisitor come in to sniff out the real threat, maybe another Eldeen Reaches group comes in to track them down and stop them before anyone finds out it was druids (and thus starts up some good rabble-rousing against them).

Regitnui

2016-08-02, 04:59 AM

The difference between Sovereign Host and Silver Flame corruption is simple; the Flame is simply brighter. A corrupt Flame priest is likely doing good by Evil or outright Evil. An Evil Host priest is likely worshipping the Dark Six, so is a step removed from the Good priests. A corrupt Flame priest stands out more against the Good of his church than a corrupt Host priest (who's likely proceeded to the Dark Six).

JackPhoenix

2016-08-02, 06:52 AM

I just wanted to pop in to suggest that if someone is running a game in Eberron, its a good idea to ease off the gas a bit in portraying the Church of the Silver Flame as zealots or racists. It was an unfortunate effect of the Campaign Setting to put focus on it, and made the problem seem WAY worse than it really is. The Church of the Silver Flame is one of the greatest forces for the protection of the innocent in all of Eberron, and its corrupt aspects highlighted only to show that even such a positive force in the world has people that abuse its power and fail to live up to its ideals.

I blame Faiths of Eberron and Forge of War, two books Keith Baker had no hand in writting, and objects against some stuff present in there (Thrane's army was a bunch of fanatical, untrained peasants and their weakness was the lack of archers? What? They are theocracy who's main tenet is defending innocents from supernatural monsters (there's your training) and whose favored weapon is a longbow (there are your archers). KB said that Thrane should have had second best trained and disciplined military after Karrnath, which actually make sense).

Another thing is the lack of organisation within Sovereign Host and the lack of focus on them in the writing. Corrupt Vassal have much lesser impact outside his closest vicinity.

The difference between Sovereign Host and Silver Flame corruption is simple; the Flame is simply brighter. A corrupt Flame priest is likely doing good by Evil or outright Evil. An Evil Host priest is likely worshipping the Dark Six, so is a step removed from the Good priests. A corrupt Flame priest stands out more against the Good of his church than a corrupt Host priest (who's likely proceeded to the Dark Six).

I think this is a misunderstanding. Host and the Six are the two faces of the same coin. Host represents order and civilisation, Six is about chaos, wilderness and the darker sides of human nature (they also take no small amount of inspiration from the Overlords, but that's besides the point). Death is a part of life, and there are those who believe Keeper steals the souls to hide them from Doluurh for some greater purpose. Without Traveler, there would be stagnation, he's the inspiration inventors need. Devourer is the fury of nature, out of mortal's control. Shadow is patron of forbidden knowledge and dark magic, but those would exists regardless, and stain Aureon's portfolio without him. Mockery is the dark side of war, which would be no less real without him. And Fury is the wild passion of every living thing, passion that may lead both to murders and to greatest works of art.

My game (currently on hold for RL reasons) focuses on Thrane. One character is a paladin, another is secretly a cultist of the Shadow in the Flame. I portray CotSF as mostly good, to the endless frustration of the later. But in the current "chapter", they were sent to Thaliost to investigate some unusual happenings there, and all of them were horrified at the things Dariznu and his Puritan cronies did... but even there, they found good people doing their best to help. And they understand it's not as simple as "ISIL in disguise opresses conquered people", they found that some people on the other side are not much better, and that Dariznu trully believes he's doing the right thing in in a situation where everything is falling apart around him.

There's an imprisoned Overlord slowly driving everyone in the city violently crazy, demons infilitrationg both the Church and the natives aiming to restart the Last War, and the city itself is anything from stable (there are currently riots involving at least 4 factions fighting each other: CotSF, Overlord's cultists, Aundairians and Thrane loyalists. In the middle of zombie apocalypse caused by careless Chamber agent trying to do something about the Overlord).

Characters also found that one of the NPCs sent with them had secret orders: remove Dariznu by any means necessary under the cover of riots. They aren't sure who's behind that mission: does that order come from the Keeper of the Flame, as she can't move openly against him? Is it Krozen plotting to get rid of a political rival? Shadow in the Flame trying to cause more strife in CotSF? They don't know, and after what they've seen, they don't care: Dariznu must be stopped, even if some of his deeds may have been justifiable and his thinking somewhat understandable (especially in the light of the Rak Tulkhesh's presence and his influence over the inhabitants of Thaliost).

RedMage125

2016-08-02, 03:34 PM

Keith Baker had a very detailed Dragonshard about the Lycanthropic Purge, as well.

Too often the Purge is sen as the CotSF mercilessly and prejudicially exterminating innocent lycanthropes. THIS IS NOT THE CASE.

Keep in mind for a moment, that Eberron has Twelve Moons. Twelve. And they all have different lunar cycles, such that more than one is frequently full at any given time. Now think of what that means for infected lycanthropes, since ANY full moon triggers the change. I believe it was mentioned by KB that each additional full moon ads 2 to the DC of the check to resist shapechanging. Afflicted lycanthropes have ZERO CONTROL over themselves when shifted. This makes afflicted lycanthropy a HUGE danger to regular people in Eberron. Most true lycanthropes know this, and tried to be careful about spreading the affliction, unless absolute chaos and disorder was their goal.

Now, let's examine a note about Eberron from the ECS. Alignment of a given species is not an absolute from what it says in the Monster Manual. So werebears are not necessarily LG, Weretigers are not Neutral, and yes, Wererats and Werewolves are not necessarily Evil. But, the MM DOES say that an afflicted lycanthrope takes on the alignment listed when in animal form.

How do those rules go together? KB said that afflicted lycanthropes in animal form have the alignment of the True lycanthrope who infected them. So a CG wererat bites someone, that person will (next full moon), turn into a CG dire rat.

A few hundred years ago, however, something about lycanthropy changed. More and more lycanthropes were becoming more savage, and, ultimately, evil. Even on the individual level, formerly peaceful lycanthropes were suddenly becoming savage mass murderers. And what's worse, any survivors of their attack were turning into equally savage, murderous beasts on an almost nightly basis (remember the point about 12 moons?). And then it got worse. Afflicted lycanthropes began to gain the ability to spread the infection, something previously only in the purview of True Lycanthropes. Something had to be done. And thus the Purge began, in an attempt to weed out what was becoming an uncontrollable epidemic of slaughter.

Peaceful lycanthropes who had not yet succumbed to the mysterious change that was making others savage were offered exile in...Syrania? (I forget the plane). Those that refused were often executed. But this was because leaving them behind could potentially lead to that peaceful lycanthrope becoming afflicted with the spreading madness and instigating another campaign of senseless slaughter. Was that right? probably not, and it's one of the things about the Purge that the CotSF is still ashamed of today. but they did what they thought was best to protect as many innocents as possible at the time. Too often, modern interpretations make it seem like this scenario of innocent lycanthropes being slaughtered by the Church was more common than it really was. A LOT of lycanthropes actually peacefully accepted exile. What's bad is that mob violence also killed a lot of innocent lycanthropes. Normal lay people who were adherents to the CotSF got caught up in the frenzy of what was going on. And when they cornered a lycanthrope, they had no one of magical power to open a gate to another plane and banish them, so they took it upon themselves to kill said lycanthrope on the spot. I don't think it's fair to lay those deaths at the CotSF's feet. People were scared. And while they had a right to be scared, perpetrating violence in the name of fear is not acceptable, but you can't blame the organization that informed them of the danger while trying to protect them.

People's depiction of the CotSF's Lycanthropic Purge (both in-world and IRL) as some kind of "vicious witch hunt that killed thousands of innocents" is incorrect. Some innocent lycanthropes were killed, yes. And some shifters were killed in the crossfire by people lashing out in fear. But not only was that NOT the norm, but those acts were condemned by the CotSF.

Xerres has pointed out that, by and large, the CotSF is an organization for GOOD. It believes in helping others, and stands firm in the belief in stamping out evil, TRUE evil. The Lycanthropic Purge was in response to a supernatural event that caused thousands of innocents to be slaughtered. And it required trained paladins, knights and inquisitors to stamp out this supernatural menace.

I agree with Xerres that I don't think Keith Baker ever intended the "default" view of the CotSF to be one of corruption. It's still the organization that is dedicated to a very REAL force of supernatural GOOD (as opposed to the sovereigns). And it is the ONLY religion in Khorvaire (Undying Court is in Aerenal) which is dedicated to a divine force that for sure exists.

Regitnui

2016-08-02, 03:37 PM

RedMage125

2016-08-02, 03:46 PM

I run a nautical campaign with a blood of vol cleric. I'm fairly sure I'm good with the "light side of Evil" and the "dark side of Good". Corrupt priests make good villains, and unfortunately the CotSF got flanderized when they're less corrupt than the other faiths. They are, however, more likely to create extremists.

I have an aasimar Prince who's earned the support of the Church. He's the best person on the sea to have ride to your rescue, and may even have a small church in his home port. Then again, I've also used his righteousness as an excuse to include the shulassakar; a bloodsworn (or the most humanoid stage) has decided he's a fairly good mate/tool for keeping tabs on the area.

Who knew talking about religion in a fantasy world would be just as tricky as real world religion?

I agree.

But also, I like using the "dark side of Good" as an antagonist who is still Good. There's a quote by C.S. Lewis that really inspired me in this regard:

“Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience. They may be more likely to go to Heaven yet at the same time likelier to make a Hell of earth. This very kindness stings with intolerable insult. To be "cured" against one's will and cured of states which we may not regard as disease is to be put on a level of those who have not yet reached the age of reason or those who never will; to be classed with infants, imbeciles, and domestic animals.”