Multiple low level opponents and CR ( question about interpretation of core rules )

[Conradine]

According to the 3.0 Dungeon Master Guide, 2 opponents of the same CR count as an enounter of CR +2.

So, fighting 2 orcs ( cr 1/2 ) is CR 1, 4 orcs is CR 3, 8 orcs is CR 5, 16 orcs is CR 7, and 32 orcs are not considered CR 9 because a level 9 character is too well protected to be harmed by them ( that is what the DM Guide says ).
The DM Guide XP charts also do not list xp awards for creatures 8 or more levels under the party level. So a Gnoll ( CR 1 ) cannot give experience to a level 9 + character.

The question:

A group of 16 orcs must be treated, according to the core rules, as a CR 7 or as 16 consecuteive CR 1 ?

In the first case, they would give an xp award to any character that is level 15 or less ( 7 + 8 ), in the second they would give nothing to any character above level 7.


About the literal interpretation of the rules, I don't know what if it was the first or the second ( that's why I am asking ).

From a logical viewpoint, although a level 8 character can easily kill 16 consecutive orcs without any effort, facing 16 orcs at the same times would almost certainly require a fight. Up to 8 orcs at the same time can attack a single character ( or even all 16 if half of them uses long spears ) and provide flanking to each other. They can gang-wrestle him ( 7 orcs make an aid-other action granting the other a +14 ) and take away his weapons, or - if he's a spellcaster, spread around so he can't cook everyone of them with a single fireball and shoot arrows or throw spears at him.

In my opinion, fighting 16 creatures at the same time is in no way equal to fight them one by one, but I am unsure if the correct interpretation of the rules, according to DM Guide's authors, is that 16 orcs are a CR 7 or 16 CR 1/2.

Your opinion?

[nyjastul69]

The CR/EL system is designed around a party of 4 characters.

[Jack_Simth]

According to the 3.0 Dungeon Master Guide, 2 opponents of the same CR count as an enounter of CR +2.

So, fighting 2 orcs ( cr 1/2 ) is CR 1, 4 orcs is CR 3, 8 orcs is CR 5, 16 orcs is CR 7, and 32 orcs are not considered CR 9 because a level 9 character is too well protected to be harmed by them ( that is what the DM Guide says ).
The DM Guide XP charts also do not list xp awards for creatures 8 or more levels under the party level. So a Gnoll ( CR 1 ) cannot give experience to a level 9 + character.

The question:

A group of 16 orcs must be treated, according to the core rules, as a CR 7 or as 16 consecuteive CR 1 ?

In the first case, they would give an xp award to any character that is level 15 or less ( 7 + 8 ), in the second they would give nothing to any character above level 7.


About the literal interpretation of the rules, I don't know what if it was the first or the second ( that's why I am asking ).

From a logical viewpoint, although a level 8 character can easily kill 16 consecutive orcs without any effort, facing 16 orcs at the same times would almost certainly require a fight. Up to 8 orcs at the same time can attack a single character ( or even all 16 if half of them uses long spears ) and provide flanking to each other. They can gang-wrestle him ( 7 orcs make an aid-other action granting the other a +14 ) and take away his weapons, or - if he's a spellcaster, spread around so he can't cook everyone of them with a single fireball and shoot arrows or throw spears at him.

In my opinion, fighting 16 creatures at the same time is in no way equal to fight them one by one, but I am unsure if the correct interpretation of the rules, according to DM Guide's authors, is that 16 orcs are a CR 7 or 16 CR 1/2.

Your opinion?

It's an Encounter Level of 7, rather than a CR of 7. You get XP for 16 CR 1/2 critters. Additionally, as noted by nyjastul69, the game expects a party of four.

But yes, it greatly depends on how intelligently they're played. If they're played largely as individuals (and given that the standard orc is CE with an Int of 8, they're probably supposed to be played mostly as individuals), then an 8th level character will almost certainly mow them down with little effort. If they know how to gang-pile properly (Aid Another with grappling, as you noted, is a useful strategy against many 8th level builds if they can get close enough) then they're notably more dangerous.

[Conradine]

It's an Encounter Level of 7, rather than a CR of 7.


Talking strictly about rules, an EL 7 grants xp to a party of average level 8 or more?

[Jack_Simth]

Talking strictly about rules, an EL 7 grants xp to a party of average level 8 or more?
Nope. Encounter Level (EL) is for figuring out the challenge to the party, and getting a guesstimate of what you can throw at them. You still base XP off of Challenge Rating (CR). You're using the 3.0 DMG? Most of this is on page 101... although it does say straight-up that there's a reason the table doesn't go above 12 critter groups.