The Return of Barry Allen, in context to Recent Captain America issue.

[t209]

'If I were writing "The Return of Barry Allen" today, I'd have been murdered before the second issue came out.' - Mark Waid
Here's one contrast to today's shenanigans made by Marvel on Captain America, particularly his outing as Hydra agent all along despite having thwarted them the whole time and not a fine job being an deep cover agent., DC used to make one for Barry Allen in a story called "The Return Of Barry Allen (http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/The_Flash:_The_Return_of_Barry_Allen)". But here's a difference.
- Barry Allen was dead during that time and his "odd" nature is justified.
- The staff of DC didn't go around like "This is permanent the all time".
- And actually a good story with hinting that Barry Allen in this story is an imposter who was a time traveller who went insane after discovery that he would become a villain.
I think by today's context, I think that might provide on how Marvel and DC had been doing idiotic things recently compared to the past methods by both DC and Marvel along with current trends on shock mongering albeit in poor manner.
I would be glad if I receive a reply and critique for my topic.

[TeChameleon]

*shrug*

Withholding judgement until the storyline actually concludes, admittedly with the full expectation that this will be stupid. Retcons, especially on this scale, more often than not, are. Painfully so, usually.

/rant
And I've said it before, I'll say it again; either have actual continuity, where (non-immortal) characters age and move on with their lives, and other characters step into their roles (if not necessarily their costumes/identities), a la Astro City, or else just go full Carl Barks and toss the idea out the window, instead having the characters exist in a more-or-less timeless limbo where the past is rarely referenced. The half-assery of the 'sliding timescale' is pathetic nonsense and is going to implode the American comics industry sooner or later. And the non-stop reboots really, really aren't helping. :smallyuk:
/endrant

[t209]

*shrug*

Withholding judgement until the storyline actually concludes, admittedly with the full expectation that this will be stupid. Retcons, especially on this scale, more often than not, are. Painfully so, usually.

/rant
And I've said it before, I'll say it again; either have actual continuity, where (non-immortal) characters age and move on with their lives, and other characters step into their roles (if not necessarily their costumes/identities), a la Astro City, or else just go full Carl Barks and toss the idea out the window, instead having the characters exist in a more-or-less timeless limbo where the past is rarely referenced. The half-assery of the 'sliding timescale' is pathetic nonsense and is going to implode the American comics industry sooner or later. And the non-stop reboots really, really aren't helping. :smallyuk:
/endrant
Well, DC used to try to have dynamic universe. The ones I know are Earth Two (where Golden Age heroes retired or became old veterans in 1960's and replaced by younger ones), Teen Titans (by 1980-90's, most of the "Teens" are adults now), and Flash (Wally West grew up, got married, and have twins). But it became like what you said.

[themaque]

Invincible has been doing that for a number of years now. Characters age. World events happen and stay happened. The world both changes and stays the same as Aliens, Weird Governments, and Super Science improve daily life.

[TeChameleon]

Yeh, Invincible is another that's sidestepping the whole giant pile of stupidity. Problem is, it's only the independents that are averting the sliding timescale/eternal now/whatever.

Over in the Big Two, Clark Kent will always be Superman, will always be a newspaper reporter, always have a tendency to wear (horribly outdated at this point) blue suits to work (maybe even perpetually wear that striped red tie), always hang out with the (borderline creepily) younger Jimmy Olsen who has no defining traits aside from 'Superman's Pal', pine after Lois Lane but never get her because she wants Superman... because those are the versions of Superman and his world that have entered the zeitgeist, and so they're the most recognizable, and the most marketable.

So we'll be getting a blockbuster movie of Spider-man's origin every decade or so, see Bruce Wayne's parents murdered before his very eyes repeatedly, in every form of media imaginable, the X-Men will never make the slightest difference in their world despite saving it over and over and over (and probably periodically get stuffed into those stupid black leather outfits that make them look like a fetishist motorcycle gang, at the behest of the beancounters who want them to 'look like the movies')...

... argh :smallmad:

[themaque]

I'm also not certain that non-strict continuity is a BAD thing either.

How many times has the story of Hercules been told through history?
How many times has Romeo had his deadly rebound fling with Juliette?

Depending on context, Continuity could easily still be seen as a relatively NEW thing. How strict a company sticks to it is bound to change depending on current political corporate structure, editor, writer, what's hot on the news stand that week.

[Friv]

'If I were writing "The Return of Barry Allen" today, I'd have been murdered before the second issue came out.' - Mark Waid
Here's one contrast to today's shenanigans made by Marvel on Captain America, particularly his outing as Hydra agent all along despite having thwarted them the whole time and not a fine job being an deep cover agent., DC used to make one for Barry Allen in a story called "The Return Of Barry Allen (http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/The_Flash:_The_Return_of_Barry_Allen)". But here's a difference.
- Barry Allen was dead during that time and his "odd" nature is justified.
- The staff of DC didn't go around like "This is permanent the all time".
- And actually a good story with hinting that Barry Allen in this story is an imposter who was a time traveller who went insane after discovery that he would become a villain.
I think by today's context, I think that might provide on how Marvel and DC had been doing idiotic things recently compared to the past methods by both DC and Marvel along with current trends on shock mongering albeit in poor manner.
I would be glad if I receive a reply and critique for my topic.

I really only have one reply and critique:

No matter what someone writes as entertainment, it never justifies death threats.

It's one thing for fans to be upset. I don't blame them. I'm a little upset myself. Moving from "upset" to "these guys are Nazi apologists", which I've seen, is an astonishing overreaction. Going from there to literal death threats is monstrous.

So, yeah. If you want to say that Captain America being secretly Hydra is dumb, or that Marvel's "Not a clone! Not mind control! Not a Skrull!" marketing is both dumb and obviously a lie, you're well within your rights, and probably correct. But Mark Waid's point is that fans aren't stopping with that right now. They're hopping straight to literal death threats after one issue.

[Anteros]

Nothing excuses death threats, but I think there is a bit of context to be had here in order to explain why people are upset. Captain America was basically created as an anti-Nazi propaganda piece. His creator was Jewish, and intended the character to be viewed as a symbol of hope and justice to the people who were suffering at the time.

Ret-conning him into a secret Nazi 5 years after his creator dies is horribly disrespectful to the author's intentions.

[TeChameleon]

I'm also not certain that non-strict continuity is a BAD thing either.

How many times has the story of Hercules been told through history?
How many times has Romeo had his deadly rebound fling with Juliette?

Depending on context, Continuity could easily still be seen as a relatively NEW thing. How strict a company sticks to it is bound to change depending on current political corporate structure, editor, writer, what's hot on the news stand that week.
I'm not saying that the strict continuity is the best way to go; I'm saying that trying to both have strict continuity and ignore it when it would change the status quo is stupid. It leads to the never-ending string of reboots, 'things will never be the same again!1!!!!11!!' mega-crossovers that don't actually change anything, revolving-door-deaths, and Spider-Man selling his marriage to the devil Mephisto to save his dying aunt (against her wishes, no less).

I guess what I'm trying to say is pick one or the other; either stick with a solid continuity, like Astro City, Invincible, or, well, any number of creator-owned properties, or else just tell loosely-connected stories starring the same characters without a lot of worry about chronology or continuity, like Carl Barks' Duck work, Groo the Wanderer, Asterix, or Usagi Yojimbo.

Please note that I'm not promoting one over the other; I deliberately chose examples for both options that I consider to be very, very good. You can get phenomenal stories from either path; if you haven't checked out Astro City (vol. 2, Confessional, and vol. 4, The Tarnished Angel are special favourites of mine), do yourself a favour and do so- the art is excellent, the storytelling taut and compelling, and puzzling out the histories and timelines is actually quite a bit of fun- the stories tend to bounce around throughout the history of the titular city, and things referenced in passing in one story can become central in another. On the flip side, you can pick up just about any issue of Asterix, or Groo the Wanderer, and enjoy it thoroughly without any knowledge whatsoever of the series (barring ones that are part of a multi-issue storyline, of course- if recommendations are at all desired, Asterix the Legionnaire and The Wager of the gods are some more favourites :smalltongue:).

... and Romeo and Juliet's endless recycling isn't necessarily a point in the favour of retelling stories if you've ever seen the Jet Li vehicle Romeo Must Die :smallyuk:


Nothing excuses death threats, but I think there is a bit of context to be had here in order to explain why people are upset. Captain America was basically created as an anti-Nazi propaganda piece. His creator was Jewish, and intended the character to be viewed as a symbol of hope and justice to the people who were suffering at the time.

Ret-conning him into a secret Nazi 5 years after his creator dies is horribly disrespectful to the author's intentions.
I'd tend to agree, although the nit-picker in me insists that I point out that it's twenty-two years after his (also Jewish) co-creator died.

Granted, they might have waited that long just to make sure he was really dead, because if they'd tried that kind of crap while Jack Kirby was still around, I'm pretty sure he'd have turned up and kicked their collective ***. Seriously, the guy's response to a lynch mob of American Nazis (New York Nazis rather than Illinois ones, though :smalltongue:) turning up at the lobby of the Timely offices was to head downstairs to throw down (they bailed before he got there, apparently).

... also, it's not just disrespectful, it's horrifically stupid. Seriously, there is no cover deep enough to justify the number of times that Cap (often single-handedly!) has ruined Hydra's attempts to conquer the world, a surprising number of which would have been entirely successful if not for him.

[DiscipleofBob]

Yeh, Invincible is another that's sidestepping the whole giant pile of stupidity. Problem is, it's only the independents that are averting the sliding timescale/eternal now/whatever.

Over in the Big Two, Clark Kent will always be Superman, will always be a newspaper reporter, always have a tendency to wear (horribly outdated at this point) blue suits to work (maybe even perpetually wear that striped red tie), always hang out with the (borderline creepily) younger Jimmy Olsen who has no defining traits aside from 'Superman's Pal', pine after Lois Lane but never get her because she wants Superman... because those are the versions of Superman and his world that have entered the zeitgeist, and so they're the most recognizable, and the most marketable.

... argh :smallmad:

Your point about Superman loses some credibility when the fact is that hasn't applied to comic Supes for years. While the past 5 years have not been kind to DC, they've pretty much avoided that particular brand of Superman.

The New52 Superman large stayed away from Lois for a number of contrived reasons and is currently dead. But then they brought back the pre-Flashpoint Superman and Lois, who are now married with a kid, Jonathan Kent, who's getting a team up book with Batman's kid, Damian Wayne, who himself has been around since before the New52 and considering his prominence in several animated films isn't likely going anywhere anytime soon. Also, Lex Luthor is currently an Iron Man-style superhero.

So yeah, the comics can and do often progress in storyline. The problem is that often the wolves are in charge of the Marvel and DC henhouses, and whether it's due to pressure for constant best-sellers or just bad writing, we sometimes get crap like Civil War, OMD, or Cap was Hydra all along. The internet gets outraged, media social and mainstream make a fuss, presumably people get interested by the controversy alone and buy the book, then there's some kind of retcon that's equally panned by critics. The best storylines to come out of at least the Marvel side have been the movies.

Honestly, I feel most of these characters should be considered public domain at this point. Then at least it would take more than one ass**** to ruin a character for everyone. Both major comic companies stopped telling a coherent narrative with their characters a long time ago and are struggling to keep things fresh while also recognizable.

DC Rebirth seems to be going the direction of paying more attention to the legacy and overarching symbology of their characters, and pushing for a return to at least the type of atmosphere before Didio decided everyone should be as brooding and depressing as Batman.

[TeChameleon]

*snerk*

If DC is willing to apologize for the enormous pile of idiocy that is the Nu52 and make it go away, they might actually start getting my (pathetically tiny) comics budget again.

That being said, the ideas recycling is still happening- even the Damien Wayne/Jonathan Kent crossover title isn't as new as some think, right down to the title- the 'Super Sons' were a series of Imaginary Stories/Elseworlds bits that cropped up in the mid- to late-70s. Granted, the parallels are loose, but there's at the very least a certain amount of homaging happening.

And Luthor hero-ing around in an armoured suit? Ever heard of a world in the DCU called Lexor? Yup. Welcome back (yet again) to the Silver Age (for those that don't feel like trying to dredge up a fairly obscure bit of DC lore, long story short is that Lexor was a world where Lex ended up as a hero, and where he got at least one version of his iconic purple-and-green suit).

And... I dunno. I certainly don't hate the Silver Age stories- they often have a distinct charm, although it would've been nice in some ways if both DC and Marvel hadn't insisted on a house style- yeah, Curt Swan, Jack Kirby, and Steve Ditko were all friggin' amazing, but part of me imagines, say, old-school Fantastic Four as drawn by Winsor McCay, or Black Panther being drawn by Lee Falk, and it's just a bit sad that it could never have happened.

That and Jack Kirby's DC work could be hilariously jarring at times, since you'd get this stream of KIRBYKIRBYKIRBYKIRBYKIRBYKIRBYKIRBYKIRBYKIRBYKIRBY KIRBY and then Jimmy Olsen or Superman would come on panel, and all of a sudden it's KIRBYKIRBYKIRBYKIRBYKIRBYKIRCurtSwanBYKIRBYKIRBYKI RBYKIRBYKIRBYKIRBYKIRBYKIRBY.

The constant reappearance of themes, characters, and even entire storylines are part of why I so often espouse either ditching continuity or solidifying it; if the stuff still happened, authors are less tempted to try and slide in their 'favourite bits' from the stories they remember from their childhood. It's just less... cluttered. And then Supergirl, Power Girl, Wonder Girl, Hawkman and Hawkwoman/girl, etc. might have origins that didn't cause aneurysms when you thought about them too hard -_-;

[Ceiling_Squid]

I'm not saying that the strict continuity is the best way to go; I'm saying that trying to both have strict continuity and ignore it when it would change the status quo is stupid. It leads to the never-ending string of reboots, 'things will never be the same again!1!!!!11!!' mega-crossovers that don't actually change anything, revolving-door-deaths, and Spider-Man selling his marriage to the devil Mephisto to save his dying aunt (against her wishes, no less).

I guess what I'm trying to say is pick one or the other; either stick with a solid continuity, like Astro City, Invincible, or, well, any number of creator-owned properties, or else just tell loosely-connected stories starring the same characters without a lot of worry about chronology or continuity, like Carl Barks' Duck work, Groo the Wanderer, Asterix, or Usagi Yojimbo.


I absolutely see what you mean.

DC/Marvel are continually shackled by a tendency to have their cake and eat it too. Beholden to marketable and timeless icons, but also to some bizarre mockery of "continuity".

It's why I'm an occasional reader at best, and unlikely to get invested in either comic line. The result of these half measures is an impenetrable mess of inconsistent history and retcons so frequent that they induce apathy. Its the biggest weakness of superhero comics as an entire medium, so long as the Big Two fail to address it.

Hell, I'm still firmly of the belief that both universes are at their best when adapted and distilled outside their home medium. The old DCAU and the current MCU are good examples.

Of the continuity vs. timeless thing, I've usually been a fan of the former. Plotted works with a sense of progression and consistency. Looking at my bookshelf, there are tighter, self-contained comics with a clear end-goal (Transmetropolitan, Zenith, AKIRA, Miracleman, Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind), or long-runners with more distant ends and looser plot arcs, but nonetheless a heap of continuity (Judge Dredd, Hellboy). Our dear OoTS is on my shelf, at least as it gets print versions.

All that in mind, I think that the Big Two just aren't making comics for people like me. As much as I'm firmly aware of their precious icons, they aren't getting me to buy their ongoing books. At best I'm just another filmgoer.

The difference is, I can point to these books I enjoy and say "look, here's a solid comic with a rich history, a clear vision, and a story to tell! Here's the first book. Check it out!" I've loaned out TPBs and gotten people interested in titles, in the same way one might talk about a good book they read.

With mainline superhero comics...where the hell does one get hooked into it? Do I wait around for the latest half-assed reboot? Why get invested right now? What's canon/non-canon at this point in time? Why does [classic hero] not remotely resemble the popular image associated with them in other media? What titles are currently getting screwed by editorial mandate or crossover events? These are questions that turn away potential readers.

[Friv]

... also, it's not just disrespectful, it's horrifically stupid. Seriously, there is no cover deep enough to justify the number of times that Cap (often single-handedly!) has ruined Hydra's attempts to conquer the world, a surprising number of which would have been entirely successful if not for him.

There is a 95% likelihood that Hydra is rewriting Cap's memories right now, which is technically not mind control so the writers can make that claim even though really it's a bare-faced lie. This is, to be fair, based on the pages I've seen, that have black-and-white flashback sequences with Hydra-related things superimposed in red.

On that front, I'm willing to wait for the current storyline to resolve. I'm personally more annoyed at the coy "no it's real" stuff than the story itself.

I do feel really bad for the writers, though. This kind of backlash has got to be awful.

[t209]

And it's been over due on this thread's resolution. So....
Turned out that it was continuation of Pleasant Hills arc.
But my point still stands, it's very different from how it was handled in DC on The Return of Barry Allen three decades ago.