Spotting a target at 3000ft

[Azoth]

Okay, so a buddy has run into a snag. His Arcane Archer Gish has the ability to fire at maximum distance over 3000ft. He enjoys that this is over twice the distance of even long range spells. The problem is that he doesn't see a way to be able to accurately target his shots at this distance.

Accuracy even with a -20 to hit isn't a problem since he can just target a square instead of a person. The problem is overcoming a -300 to spot a target.

The only solution I have found that is slightly dubious is to greater scry a party member or his familiar to view things in the 10ft radius around them and use that for his targeting. This has the issue of putting a party member or his familiar at the epicenter of whatever AoE he decides to fire off.

Are there any other solutions that are spells, items, or feats? His build is locked as far as class levels go.

[Malroth]

spot auto succeeds vs targets not attempting to hide even with a -300 penalty

[AvatarVecna]

If your DM is gonna be a stickler about the Spot range penalty despite it not being RAW necessary unless the target is hiding, this should be quite useful for you. (http://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/46849/items-to-enhance-spot-checks) While the ability to stack tons and tons of bonuses is useful, there's two things in that post that are most useful for your purposes:

1) Use the rules for making magic items emulate feats (A&EG pg 128) to make a magic item granting the feat "Hawk's Vision" (Complete Adventurer pg 114); you'll need to either have the Wild Shape class feature, or a high enough UMD bonus to reliably emulate it. If you convince your DM to allow this nonsense, you effectively have a constant +8 untyped bonus to Spot and your distance penalty is now -1 per 20 ft.

2) The spell "Dragonsight" (Spell Compendium pg 73) makes you take half the normal penalty to Spot checks from Distance, among other vision-based benefits.

Combining these makes your penalty from distance -75 instead of -300, which should be much more manageable...especially with all the other bonuses talked about in that post.

[Azoth]

If your DM is gonna be a stickler about the Spot range penalty despite it not being RAW necessary unless the target is hiding, this should be quite useful for you. (http://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/46849/items-to-enhance-spot-checks) While the ability to stack tons and tons of bonuses is useful, there's two things in that post that are most useful for your purposes:

1) Use the rules for making magic items emulate feats (A&EG pg 128) to make a magic item granting the feat "Hawk's Vision" (Complete Adventurer pg 114); you'll need to either have the Wild Shape class feature, or a high enough UMD bonus to reliably emulate it. If you convince your DM to allow this nonsense, you effectively have a constant +8 untyped bonus to Spot and your distance penalty is now -1 per 20 ft.

2) The spell "Dragonsight" (Spell Compendium pg 73) makes you take half the normal penalty to Spot checks from Distance, among other vision-based benefits.

Combining these makes your penalty from distance -75 instead of -300, which should be much more manageable...especially with all the other bonuses talked about in that post.

That would all be helpful if it were Pathfinder matetial and not 3.5 material.

[Gallowglass]

Maybe you should put a pathfinder tag on your post then.

[Azoth]

Maybe you should put a pathfinder tag on your post then.

There is a Pathfinder tag on it.

[Gallowglass]

There is a Pathfinder tag on it.

Says tags: none on my screen *shrug*

[Azoth]

Says tags: none on my screen *shrug*

Odd it is showing the Pathfinder tag on mine. Sorry for the confusion and slight snippiness.

[AvatarVecna]

That would all be helpful if it were Pathfinder matetial and not 3.5 material.

I saw no such tag before, although I see it now. I guess that stuff is still relevant-ish, since PF and 3.5 are compatible, but I'll see if I can find any good PF-only stuff for this problem...

[AvatarVecna]

Quick searches reveal no easy collections of all PF Spot bonuses, so until further notice I would recommend pointing out to your DM that checks in general are reasonable only when there's a possibility of failure, and that Perception checks specifically aren't necessary against something that's not hiding. If they want to complain that this isn't reasonable, point out that IRL examples that show how stupid the rule is: point out how, if RL worked according to D&D rules, people at opposite ends of a football field couldn't see each other; point out how RL people can see airplanes flying overhead when it's not cloudy outside, even though the airplane is 5 miles away.

Also, if your DM is going to insist on sticking by his ruling, I recommend that you begin referring to anybody who describes the position of the sun, moon, and stars as a filthy liar imagining things that aren't there (since the penalty from Distance means you'll never be optimized enough to succeed on the check after taking the distance penalty into account); when questioned about your insistence that there's no such thing as a "sun", point out that you can't see it because of this ruling, and make sure to prepare to dodge a book of some kind.

[Geddy2112]

If the target is not trying to hide, there is no check needed. At 3000ft in broad daylight, no cover/flat ground, a humanoid target would be visible, albeit small.

[Azoth]

Best I can do is:

Spyglass to turn 300 into 150

Eyes of the Eagle for +5 Competence.

Cast Bestow Insight for +6 Insight bonus.

Find a way to get Acute Senses on the Wiz list for +30 Enhancement.

Granted this is with both spells at CL16 so yeah.

[Yanisa]

Says tags: none on my screen *shrug*

Maybe the confusion comes from the fact you don't see the tag in the thread between posts. Only at the top. That's the reason I tend to double tag my posts. It's annoying.


Quick searches reveal no easy collections of all PF Spot bonuses

Easiest way in pathfinder is to use Archives of Nethys search (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/Search.aspx) and enter perception. Still needs some human cleaning, but it's a great start.


If the target is not trying to hide, there is no check needed. At 3000ft in broad daylight, no cover/flat ground, a humanoid target would be visible, albeit small.

I want to quote this for truth.

You really see this back in items like the telescope (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/EquipmentMiscDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Telescope%20%28 x10%29), which gives between +2 and +6 bonus on noticing celestial bodies. Pretty sure any range penalty is in the millions.

Edit: Also this thread here (http://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/31982/how-far-can-characters-see). Seeing the sun in broad daylight has a -42 million penalty.


Best I can do is:

Spyglass to turn 300 into 150
A masterwork spyglass (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/EquipmentMiscDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Spyglass%20%28m asterwork%29) turns it 75 penalty. :smallwink:



But anyways a farglass (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/e-g/farglass) allows "clear vision to the horizon 3 miles away at sea level" (And up to 10 miles if you are 70 feet high). It also has clairaudience/clairvoyance within said area. This magic item might be your best solution. It's also relative cheap.

[Triskavanski]

Why not use the most basic part first?

Signature Skill: Perception

5 Ranks = 3000 feet becomes -150
10 Ranks = 3000 Feet becomes -100
15 Ranks 3000 feat becomes -75
20 ranks 3000 feat beocomes -50.

[Yanisa]

Why not use the most basic part first?

Signature Skill: Perception

5 Ranks = 3000 feet becomes -150
10 Ranks = 3000 Feet becomes -100
15 Ranks 3000 feat becomes -75
20 ranks 3000 feat becomes -50.

I wonder if you can make that stack with a spyglass. The very specific wording doesn't work in a harsh RAW environment, but the idea that some people have eyes so good lenses cannot create a better image doesn't really fly. It's a ask your DM case, but I would allow it to stack. As in 40 feet from telescope + 20 feet from the skill allows for -1 per 60 feet. (Then we get 70, 80, 100)

That would lead to
5 ranks + MW Telescope = -50
10 ranks + MW Telescope = -42
15 ranks + MW Telescope = -37
20 ranks + MW Telescope = -30

Somehow I expected more from these numbers... Still 30 is easy to solve.


But speculation aside, the Signature Skill does cost a feat slot, but has the benefits of not using an arm (or duck tape shenanigans (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/EquipmentTechMiscDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Ion%20tape) ). But it takes 15 ranks before it equals the 4000 GP Masterwork Spyglass.

[Triskavanski]

So the best solution would be to get it anyways, but the spy glass when you can, until level 15. That way when you can't use the spy glass you're not completely hosed.