Frenzy Build Help/Optimization

[dnscodcs]

Hi there.

Since I'm new to the whole DnD scene I have chosen the path of a bloodthirsty half-orc barb to get things started.

Currently trying to work on a decent Frenzy build I wanted to see how mine holds up and what the more experienced players among you would add/subtract from it to optimize it further.

I've only thought ahead to PC lv 20 so far, with very little thought spend towards epic lvls except for the fact that I don't want to get stuck with exp penalties.

The build consists of Barb 1/Fighter 8/Frenzy 10 with me searching for one more PrC that I can use for PC lv 20. Any idea which one would fit here?

Feats I use are the standard Power Atk/Cleave/Int + Des Rage required for Frenzy on top of some pretty cookie cutter stuff like Leap Attack, Improved bull + Shock Trooper and Extra Rage to make up for the additional rages lost from not leveling barb.

On top of that I decided to go with the alternative Resolute fighter feat in place of the Endurance + Steadfast determination combo that most people use to get rid of their frenzy after the fight ends.

This leaves me with 3 open standard feats from PC lv 12 onwards.

I have thought long and hard about going with a more defensive setup that consists of taking Endurance, Iron will and Indomitable Soul for my last 3 feats but I believe that to be a bit overkill to just get out of a frenzy.

With Class base saves, Resolute and the +2 bonus to Will from Raging I gain a ~ +16 bonus to will saves at PC lv 20 which is high enough IMO.

But the thing is I can't really find any decent offensive ones, at least not the ones that you can achieve by spending 3 feats.

Greater Cleave seems to be an obvious choice on the aggressive path but what else? Any recommendations would be highly appreciated.

For a more detailed look at my planned leveling order check this out:

pc lv 1: barb lv 1

feat: int rage

pc lv 2: fighter lv 1

bonus feat: power atk

pc lv 3: fighter lv 2

feat: des rage

bonus feat: cleave

pc lv 4: fighter lv 3

pc lv 5: fighter lv 4

bonus feat: imp bull

pc lv 6: fighter lv 5

feat: leap attack

pc lv 7: fighter lv 6

bonus feat: shock trooper

pc lv 8: fighter lv 7

pc lv 9: fighter lv 8

feat: extra rage

bonus feat: resolute

pc lv 10: frenzy lv 1

pc lv 11: frenzy lv 2

pc lv 12: frenzy lv 3

feat: ???

pc lv 13: frenzy lv 4

pc lv 14: frenzy lv 5

pc lv 15: frenzy lv 6

feat: ???

pc lv 16: frenzy lv 7

pc lv 17: frenzy lv 8

pc lv 18: frenzy lv 9

feat: ???

pc lv 19: frenzy lv 10

pc lv 20: PrC lv 1 ???

Thanks in advance for your help

[Inevitability]

I'm assuming with 'Frenzy' you mean 'Frenzied Berserker'.

First of all: do you know the Spirit Lion Totem from Complete Champion? It's a great alternative to Fast Movement. Note that by 'great' I mean 'almost mandatory'.

Also: why do you have eight levels in fighter? All it gives you are some extra feats. Two fighter levels are fine, maybe four, but eight is just ridiculous. The only builds I know where that would be worth it are intimidate-focused Zhentarim Soldiers.

You are way too worried about your will save. Don't. Instead, just give your allies a bag of marbles or a Wand of Calm Emotions and instruct them to use it the moment all enemies are dead and you are still frenzied. I hope your party has at least one bard/cleric/favored soul/archivist?

Alternatively, a use-activated Headband of Calm Emotions that triggers when you attack a creature not displaying hostile intent towards you should be craftable.

[dnscodcs]

Yeah the lion totem is in the build aswell, forgot to include it for some reason. I'd ofc happily trade 10 movespeed for pounce.

As for the 8 levels in fighter:
It was a necessary evil seeing how I needed some levels in fighter to get the necessary (bonus) feats for my build to begin with and I didn't want to take multiclass exp penalties from leveling another non prestige, non race-favored class.

I guess you hinted at leveling my barb lvls instead? Like a Barb 8/Fighter2/Frenzy 10 build?

The barb class features just didn't seem very convincing it to me (the lv 8 ones at least), bonus feats sounded more worth it.

Plus I believe I need at least 10 lvls in a class to be eligible for epic lvls, and IIRC you can't level a class any further once you reach lv 20 (excluding epic lvls).

I can negotiate homebrew epic lvls for frenzy with my DM, but he won't let me jump to epic lvls with barb unless that barb is 10.

Yes we do have a cleric but my, our groups, knowledge concerning magic items and other classes isn't that high, hence why I tried to take the Will save matter into my own hands using feats.

I'll take a look at the items that you've named so far, the Headband sounds particularly interesting.

[Seppo87]

It would be best to play a barbarian2/fighter2/warblade2 as an entry
Do the whole prc then add 2 more fighter and warblade for a total of brb2 ftr4 wrb4 fb10

With warblade you don't need certain feats.
mind over body and you're fine.
Also leading the attack is mandatory it is basically free damage.
With ihs you just leave frenzy without a check.
Wall of blades to prevent enemies from taking advantage of your low ac.
It is the best multiclass ever for a barbarian.

[Inevitability]

Yes we do have a cleric but my, our groups, knowledge concerning magic items and other classes isn't that high, hence why I tried to take the Will save matter into my own hands using feats.

Okay... but how hard is it to just buy a 4500 GP wand of Calm Emotions, give it to the cleric, and instruct him to point it at you when you go berserk? I'm not seeing the problem here.

[dnscodcs]

It would be best to play a barbarian2/fighter2/warblade2 as an entry
Do the whole prc then add 2 more fighter and warblade for a total of brb2 ftr4 wrb4 fb10

With warblade you don't need certain feats.
mind over body and you're fine.
Also leading the attack is mandatory it is basically free damage.
With ihs you just leave frenzy without a check.
Wall of blades to prevent enemies from taking advantage of your low ac.
It is the best multiclass ever for a barbarian.

That sounds like a nice build, even though I don't know what half of the abilities you named do in particular :D

I have considered going with warblade as an alternative class but the mutliclass exp penalty prevented me from reading further into it.

We are already a pretty large group consisting of 7 (some more some less involved) players, the 20% exp penalty would be devastating for any further progress of my character or am I overreacting here?

[dnscodcs]

Okay... but how hard is it to just buy a 4500 GP wand of Calm Emotions, give it to the cleric, and instruct him to point it at you when you go berserk? I'm not seeing the problem here.

You're right there shouldn't be a problem. I just didn't know of the item before, I'll look into it now :D

[Seppo87]

You will not have multiclass penalities with the build I wrote as long as you keep your non-favored classes within 1 lv of difference (even if they are both above your favored class).
BTW you should really read the maneuvers I mentioned they are way better than most feats and you will definitely like them.

[dnscodcs]

You will not have multiclass penalities with the build I wrote if you alyernate correctly between warblade and fighter. BTW you should really read the maneuvers I mentioned they are way better than most feats and you will definitely like them.

Oh yeah there was something about a 1 lvl difference buffer between classes before you get penalized, I mistakenly mixed up the rules. Thanks for the tip

[ExLibrisMortis]

You are a bloodthirsty half-orc, but what is your exact alignment? If you are CG, Champion of Gwynharwyf is just about the best barbarian PrC ever. It fits well with Intimidate-focused barbarians (including an improved version of Intimidating Rage), and also allows you to cast spells while raging (sadly, calm emotions is not on the list).

[Inevitability]

You are a bloodthirsty half-orc, but what is your exact alignment? If you are CG, Champion of Gwynharwyf is just about the best barbarian PrC ever. It fits well with Intimidate-focused barbarians (including an improved version of Intimidating Rage), and also allows you to cast spells while raging (sadly, calm emotions is not on the list).

Extra Spell can fix that, though. And being a 1st-level Consecrated Harrier spell, Calm Emotions can be taken the moment you get 2nd-level spells.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Extra Spell can fix that, though. And being a 1st-level Consecrated Harrier spell, Calm Emotions can be taken the moment you get 2nd-level spells.
If Extra Spell can grab off-list spells, then absolutely, it's likely better than Iron Will, Resolute, or Indomitable Soul. However, I just realized this: Champion of Gwynharwyf requires the Righteous Wrath exalted feat. It says: "While raging, you maintain clarity of mind unusual among barbarians. You are perfectly able to deal nonlethal damage, stop your attacks to show mercy, and distinguish friend from foe even in the heat of your rage". So I guess calm emotions is moot, if you qualify for the class.

That would put the build at something like barbarian 2/fighter 2/warblade 2/champion of gwynharwyf 4/frenzied berserker 10. No multiclass XP penalties, second-level maneuvers (but you can burn a feat to get Iron Heart Surge), Divine Grace, Intimidating Rage, Fearsome Fury. Add the Never Outnumbered skill trick, get some fearsome armour, and you're sending foes running left and right. You don't need swift-action movement if your opponent is setting up the pounce for you :smallbiggrin:.

[Inevitability]

If Extra Spell can grab off-list spells, then absolutely, it's likely better than Iron Will, Resolute, or Indomitable Soul. However, I just realized this: Champion of Gwynharwyf requires the Righteous Wrath exalted feat. It says: "While raging, you maintain clarity of mind unusual among barbarians. You are perfectly able to deal nonlethal damage, stop your attacks to show mercy, and distinguish friend from foe even in the heat of your rage". So I guess calm emotions is moot, if you qualify for the class.

I can see a bit of leeway with the 'in the heat of your rage' part, though. A particularly evil GM may interpret it to not include frenzy-caused rampaging.

[Twurps]

It would be best to play a barbarian2/fighter2/warblade2 as an entry
Do the whole prc then add 2 more fighter and warblade for a total of brb2 ftr4 wrb4 fb10

With warblade you don't need certain feats.
mind over body and you're fine.
Also leading the attack is mandatory it is basically free damage.
With ihs you just leave frenzy without a check.
Wall of blades to prevent enemies from taking advantage of your low ac.
It is the best multiclass ever for a barbarian.

I'm assuming you mean 'moment of perfect mind' instead of mind over body, as that is the will-save replacing maneuver.
Do consult this your DM if you plan on going this route. While frenzied, a FB cannot use the concentration skill. Some DM's interpret this to include any maneuvers that require a concentration check. (others argue rolling a concentration check doesn't equal using the concentration skill. The arquement has been done to death. I'm not taking sides, just ask your DM)

Even if your DM doesn't allow this in a frenzy, it might be worth taking the maneuver anyway, just to avoid going in a frenzy if you stub your toe somewhere.

[dnscodcs]

You are a bloodthirsty half-orc, but what is your exact alignment? If you are CG, Champion of Gwynharwyf is just about the best barbarian PrC ever. It fits well with Intimidate-focused barbarians (including an improved version of Intimidating Rage), and also allows you to cast spells while raging (sadly, calm emotions is not on the list).

As nice of a build as that sounds like I won't be able to try it with this character as he is CN.

With his history and what I've done so far I won't be able to shift him to CG, or rather it wouldn't be appropriate RP wise and as such my DM won't allow it.

Nice build to keep in mind for any future characters though.


I'm assuming you mean 'moment of perfect mind' instead of mind over body, as that is the will-save replacing maneuver.
Do consult this your DM if you plan on going this route. While frenzied, a FB cannot use the concentration skill. Some DM's interpret this to include any maneuvers that require a concentration check. (others argue rolling a concentration check doesn't equal using the concentration skill. The arquement has been done to death. I'm not taking sides, just ask your DM)

Even if your DM doesn't allow this in a frenzy, it might be worth taking the maneuver anyway, just to avoid going in a frenzy if you stub your toe somewhere.

I've got a taste of some maneuvers last night since our fighter decided to go full on warblade... pretty damn good to say the least :smallbiggrin: