Salmon Laddering

[LastCenturion]

How hard would it be (relevant skill check DC's and save DC's) to use an immovable rod to salmon ladder?

[khadgar567]

now I am curious to

[Khedrac]

The big problem is that it takes a move action to set the immoveable rod in position.
(The SRD description fails to state that it is possible to un-set it, but they would be a lot less useful if that was the case).
Assuming that it is also a move action to un-set its position then you have a problem - you onnly have a free or swift action to jerk the rod high enough that you can push the button again before it falls past the old location.
This is very hard (and very fast). Arguably it is harder than the epic tumble skill use of free stand - DC 35
I think it would be a simpler tumble check to pull oneself up on the bar to be ready for the depress-jerk-press manoeuver, in fact if you can do the hard bit the pull up part is probably not failable.

Looking at Balance as a skill, one can balance on 1" at 40, a hair at 60 and a cloud at 120.
(I don't like the DC for a 1" wide surface being 40 - it means circus performers who don't use a balance pole have way too many ranks.)
Now using balance to be standing on the rod (bent double to reach the button) before straightening and re-setting the rod will help. Now that sort of acrobatics might justify the DC40 balance, and it probably helps with the distance you fall during the action.

So perhaps DC40 balance and tumble checks?

Now I don't think it should be one pair of checks per round, more like one pair per 10' climbed.
Climbing will be slow - perhaps 5' per round, but I would probably argure for half that (or less for a small character).

[Troacctid]

A DC 30 Strength check moves the rod up to 10 feet if you push on it. In order to push it upward while hanging from it, though, you would presumably need to be able to fly or levitate or something, or else your weight would pull it downward instead, assuming you're not on a plane with subjective gravity.

[Telok]

You need some cable, a mechanical or magical reel, a good strength score, and a high jump skill bonus. Being able to make a dc40 balance check is probably also helpful.

Attach one end of the cable to the rod and the other end to the reel. Attach the reel to yourself. Set the rod and stand on it. Now jump.

You have to jump high enough to play out all of your cable and with enough force to yank the rod out of position. Then you have to land back on the rod. The reel is in case the rod ever deactivates, it should be fast enough to bring the rod to you in time for you to reactivate the rod as your second action (the first was your jump) of the round.

[Khedrac]

Folks, whilst these are reasonable ideas for moving while using an immoveable rod, neither of them is "salmon laddering" as the O.P. requested.
May I suggest a quick web search, surprisingly (to me) the strength/agility test came up ahead of the route for fish round waterfalls.

A DC 30 Strength check moves the rod up to 10 feet if you push on it. In order to push it upward while hanging from it, though, you would presumably need to be able to fly or levitate or something, or else your weight would pull it downward instead, assuming you're not on a plane with subjective gravity.If you have something to push off (i.e. the flight etc.) then you are not salmon laddering. You need to be able to jerk the rod higher than it started whilst falling.


You need some cable, a mechanical or magical reel, a good strength score, and a high jump skill bonus. Being able to make a dc40 balance check is probably also helpful.
Attach one end of the cable to the rod and the other end to the reel. Attach the reel to yourself. Set the rod and stand on it. Now jump.
You have to jump high enough to play out all of your cable and with enough force to yank the rod out of position. Then you have to land back on the rod. The reel is in case the rod ever deactivates, it should be fast enough to bring the rod to you in time for you to reactivate the rod as your second action (the first was your jump) of the round.And this is not salmon laddering at all...
It is a very interesting idea, but I suspect most DMs will add some physics - if you jump up hard enough to be able to jerk the rod up at the end of your jump, the initial push off will jerk the rod down. Air resistance will slow your climb so the net result will be a loss of height. (Trauma team to the catgirls room!)
That aside I like this idea and would probably be willing to allow it if I was DMing!

[Inevitability]

Sudden Leap allows you to make a jump check and move the designated distance as a swift action. It can be obtained with the Martial Study feat (in which case you can use it every 5 minutes) or you could take a level in a martial adept class in which case the recharge time varies from a single round to a few minutes.

This allows the following turn:

Preparation: Stand on top of immovable rod. Tie rope around rod and foot, ensuring foot is always in close proximity to rod.

Standard ---> Move: Deactivate immovable rod by pressing it with your toe.
Swift: Use Sudden Leap, moving several feet upwards.
Move: Press button again, locking the rod in place. Even if you lose your balance and fall, you're still attached to a now-immobile object, so you can climb back up.

Repeat until the desired height is attained.

[Theobod]

So, careful reading of the Jump skill doesn't ACTUALLY state you have to be standing on your feet to make a jump check, merely that the DCs are doubled if you don't get a running start, the only statement that implies being on your legs.

*Dodges flying DMGs*

Thus any means of gaining swift action jumps would allow salmon laddering in theory without having to stand on the bar.
Your DM may even allow deactivating the rod to count as 'drawing it' (after all a lot of sheathes have buckles or straps or pinch grips holding the sword place) in if you have a lenient DM, thus allowing this without swift jumps if you have a +1 or higher BAB, just don't hold your breath.
Ofc with doubled DCs for no run up and high jump every 8 of your check is only a foot of gained height but hey, that's fairly realistic, just be sure to have a trained jump check or you will end up prone if you didn't set a finite intended height and pass by 5 or more, which may or may not mean falling based on DM.

[LastCenturion]

So, careful reading of the Jump skill doesn't ACTUALLY state you have to be standing on your feet to make a jump check, merely that the DCs are doubled if you don't get a running start, the only statement that implies being on your legs.

*Dodges flying DMGs*

Thus any means of gaining swift action jumps would allow salmon laddering in theory without having to stand on the bar.
Your DM may even allow deactivating the rod to count as 'drawing it' (after all a lot of sheathes have buckles or straps or pinch grips holding the sword place) in if you have a lenient DM, thus allowing this without swift jumps if you have a +1 or higher BAB, just don't hold your breath.
Ofc with doubled DCs for no run up and high jump every 8 of your check is only a foot of gained height but hey, that's fairly realistic, just be sure to have a trained jump check or you will end up prone if you didn't set a finite intended height and pass by 5 or more, which may or may not mean falling based on DM.

Thank you, this is pretty much exactly what I was looking for. Realistic reason and process for salmon laddering. I feel like I should ask for tips on dodging DMGs, but that's a little bit of thread derailment. I'm totally using this in a game, as a form of flight. Does anybody know any feats that let you deal extra damage by jumping down on your opponent? (Or maybe just a way to knock them prone, or anything like that)

[Theobod]

Thank you, this is pretty much exactly what I was looking for. Realistic reason and process for salmon laddering. I feel like I should ask for tips on dodging DMGs, but that's a little bit of thread derailment. I'm totally using this in a game, as a form of flight. Does anybody know any feats that let you deal extra damage by jumping down on your opponent? (Or maybe just a way to knock them prone, or anything like that)

Be a swordsage, not only for the maneuver for swift jumps but also for the myriad 'jump and hit harder' tiger claw maneuvers.
Also: I suggest a helmet.

[Cerefel]

Does anybody know any feats that let you deal extra damage by jumping down on your opponent? (Or maybe just a way to knock them prone, or anything like that)

The Battle Jump feat could probably be useful here.

[Necromancy]

Salmon ladder travels 12" per round at best, I'd increase DCs by 1 every round you are on it

I would not try this in combat

[Elxir_Breauer]

If you could afford a second Immovable Rod, you could simply Climb using them (provided your DM lets you deal with 2 at once and sets a Climb DC within reason for the maneuver). Note that this would likely cause Fatigue after a few rounds, up to possibly Exhaustion after a minute or more.

Simply set one at a height you can reasonably do a one-arm pull-up at, then set the next a bit higher up (say another arm-length up), repeat as needed to reach the desired height. Note that this is also going to be slower than granny's molasses in the dead of winter, but if it's the only way up and your Climb and Con/Fort are up to the task then go for it.

[khadgar567]

If you could afford a second Immovable Rod, you could simply Climb using them (provided your DM lets you deal with 2 at once and sets a Climb DC within reason for the maneuver). Note that this would likely cause Fatigue after a few rounds, up to possibly Exhaustion after a minute or more.

Simply set one at a height you can reasonably do a one-arm pull-up at, then set the next a bit higher up (say another arm-length up), repeat as needed to reach the desired height. Note that this is also going to be slower than granny's molasses in the dead of winter, but if it's the only way up and your Climb and Con/Fort are up to the task then go for it.
so you are saying use two immovable rods to air climb using them as pitons like mountain climber using pitons

[Segev]

so you are saying use two immovable rods to air climb using them as pitons like mountain climber using pitons

Yep. And you can use two to swing like monkey-bars, angling up, down, or level as you choose (and your ability checks permit).


Personally, as a DM, if somebody were going for a "salmon ladder" maneuver, I would allow them to rapidly activate and deactivate the rod without regards to the kind of action. I view the action requirement as something stating how you can use it during combat as a single thing. I would probably just set a Climb DC of 25, putting it on par with an overhang or ceiling with handholds but no footholds.

However, other DMs are well within their rights (and probably closer to the RAW) to restrict you to a maximum of one activation/deactivation cycle per round (standard+move for two move-equivalent actions).