Symbol of Death Vs Blink

[Kitzo]

How does blink interact with Symbol of Death or other such spells?


Reference: http://dndtools.pw/spells/players-handbook-v35--6/symbol-of-death--2762/ --- Symbol of Death
http://dndtools.pw/spells/players-handbook-v35--6/blink--2787/ --- Blink

[Jack_Simth]

Symbol of Death is continually active with the clause "Any creature that enters the area while the symbol of death is active is subject to its effect, whether or not that creature was in the area when it was triggered. A creature need save against the symbol only once as long as it remains within the area, though if it leaves the area and returns while the symbol is still active, it must save again." (emphasis added) while Blink includes "You “blink” back and forth between the Material Plane and the Ethereal Plane. You look as though you’re winking in and out of reality very quickly and at random."

...

So... if you're Blinking in the area of a Symbol of Death, sucks to be you.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Symbol of Death is continually active with the clause "Any creature that enters the area while the symbol of death is active is subject to its effect, whether or not that creature was in the area when it was triggered. A creature need save against the symbol only once as long as it remains within the area, though if it leaves the area and returns while the symbol is still active, it must save again." (emphasis added) while Blink includes "You “blink” back and forth between the Material Plane and the Ethereal Plane. You look as though you’re winking in and out of reality very quickly and at random."

...

So... if you're Blinking in the area of a Symbol of Death, sucks to be you.

How would one determine the number of saves one would make in one round? Or would one simply roll till he either dies or the symbol runs too low on HD to affect them?

[Kelb_Panthera]

The exact frequency of blink is unknown so it's simply a GM call. I would probably rule once each round. However, I could see a GM ruling that you auto fail because you enter the area so frequently that you cannot help but roll a 1.

[Divide by Zero]

Doesn't the Ethereal plane overlap the Material? So you never really "leave" the area.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Doesn't the Ethereal plane overlap the Material? So you never really "leave" the area.

Unfortunately, in spite of the overlap, the corresponding locations on the ethereal and material unambiguously are different locations.

If the symbol were subject to a transdimensional spell metamagic then you'd be correct.

[Florian]

I would not count blinking as "leaving and entering" again. Blink offers an explanation on how it works but does itself no go through with it, else you would need to have two battlemaps when combat starts to see what simultaneously happens on the ethereal plane.

[Rangô]

I would not count blinking as "leaving and entering" again. Blink offers an explanation on how it works but does itself no go through with it, else you would need to have two battlemaps when combat starts to see what simultaneously happens on the ethereal plane.

I totally agree, you shouldn't twist the rules to see what happens if... One saving roll is fair.

[Zombimode]

I would not count blinking as "leaving and entering" again. Blink offers an explanation on how it works but does itself no go through with it, else you would need to have two battlemaps when combat starts to see what simultaneously happens on the ethereal plane.

IF there is anything else relevant going on on the ethereal plane, then yes. The point being?

[Florian]

IF there is anything else relevant going on on the ethereal plane, then yes. The point being?

If it was meant to be that way, the spell would include a clause like: "When you cast Blink and every time you make a move on your turn, check if there is something blocking that square on the ethereal plane. If that is the case, X or Y happens..". You know, just like with Passwall or similar spells that take stuff like this in account because they are supposed to happen, nur extrapolated from fluff.

Edit: Additionally, if any real movement should take place, this spell would trigger AoO and tell you so.

[Zombimode]

If it was meant to be that way, the spell would include a clause like: "When you cast Blink and every time you make a move on your turn, check if there is something blocking that square on the ethereal plane. If that is the case, X or Y happens..". You know, just like with Passwall or similar spells that take stuff like this in account because they are supposed to happen, nur extrapolated from fluff.

Well, one could argue that the ethereal looks the same as the material on the fringes were both planes meet except for creature that exist on the ethereal but not on the material. And the ethereal is not exactly populous, so that in most circumstances a space that is empty on the material is linked to an empty space on the ethereal and thus no additional ruling are needed in the spell description (the same can't be said about passwall, thus the need for additional rules).

But I can see where you are coming from. It becomes a matter of taste concerning how much you subscribe to the notion that fluff and crunch are separate from each other.

Personally I prefer a close interconnection of fluff and crunch which I believe is also the spirit of the rules.

If you were to ignore the fact that a blinking creature repeatedly jumps between the ethereal and the material plane and consequently the interaction with symbol spells you would arrive at very sharp divide between fluff and crunch. For the spell blink, the crunch would be "50% miss chance etc." and the fluff would be "hops between ethereal and material plane" with no connection between those two whatsoever. If that's how you want to play, sure. But I prefer a in a game where the spell blink would provide the mechanical effect of 50% miss chance BECAUSE the subjects blinks between the ethereal and material plane.


Edit: Additionally, if any real movement should take place, this spell would trigger AoO and tell you so.

Not all movement provokes. Blinking apparently does not.

[Kelb_Panthera]

That's not a fluff-crunch distinction to divide. Blink explicitly does not work on planes that are not coexistent with the ethereal, which is most of them in most published settings. This is not rules twisting, it's simply following them to the letter; you constantly move back and forth between the ethereal and the material while blinking. When you're on the ethereal you are -not- in the area effected by the symbol of death.

Since there's a gap in the rules, a ruling must be made by any individual DM as to how many saves you must make because of blink but if he chooses 0 then he's making a houserule rather than just ruling on RAW. It's as simple as that. There's nothing wrong with making a houserule wherever you think one is appropriate but it's important to acknowledge that it -is- a houserule when discussing the game with the larger community rather than just your own play group(s).

There are ways around this particular problem; transdimensional spell, dispel magic, death ward, etc. Consequently, I'm of the opinion that a houserule isn't necessary here.

@Florian:

A DM would be well within the rules of the game to apply ethereal objects or even ethereal encounters to any battle in which they might be relevant, which includes any battle in which one or more parties is blinking. You wouldn't need to make any checks though, when you're on the ethereal they're plainly visible to you unless something impedes your vision or they're a creature that's deliberately hiding. They will get to make a new hide check each round, if they choose, unless you have see invisibility up.

[Psyren]

Blink only protects you from "individually targeted spells." An area spell like a fireball will hit you while blinking (with half damage, so it's still affecting you), and therefore non-damaging effects like the symbol will affect you too. Basically, you shift back into phase too quickly to avoid the effects completely.

I would not however cause you to repeatedly trigger the symbol via blinking. Once is fine.