"Farm-kill" commoners for profit and fun

[Conradine]

Assuming that if a CR 1 gives experience up to level 9 and no more, then a CR 1/2 should give xp untill you reach level 8, and a CR 1/4 ( first level commoner ) untill you reach level 7...

I've done a little math and, taking in account that xp awards for each commoner decrease from 75 ( character level 1-4 ) to more or less 60 ( level 5 ) and to 50 ( level 60 ), then you would need to kill more or less 336 folks to get level 7.

Now, killing some commoners is an extremely easy task even for a level 1 party of 4 character. If they take some pains to be sure no witness is left, expecially if they target isolate farms and other small installations, reaching a body count of ( 336 x 4 = 1.344 ) would take just a year or two. It's not really an huge body count, if you think whole villages are quite frequently razed by orcs and other barbarian hordes; beside that if they travel between a raid and another, and spread the "xp farming" in a vast enough area, that could pass almost unnoticed.

There would be a problem: that level 7 party would have no equipment or money beside those few they could stole from the commoners. But here's the solution: if they capture the commoners alive ( Sleep spells, stunning blows, non lethal traps and the like ) and bring them to their lair, hidden somewhere in the wilderness, then they can sacrifice them to the dark gods in order to get Dark Craft virtual gold points and experience points.

Assuming that one character is a Wizard and specializes in magical item creation, and another is a Cleric specialized in sacrifice, they could get that:

Knowledge ( religion ) 4 points
Fox Cunning ( cast by the Wizard on the Cleric ) +2 for enached Intelligence
some Mushrom Powder created by Extract Drug spell + 1 for alchemical bonus to Intelligence
aid another action +2 ( the Wizard helping the Cleric with occult researches )
Sacrifical Skill spell + 4
Sacrifical Mastery feat + 5
Focused Ability ( knowledge - religions ) +2
sacrifice done on an altar + 2
one hour sacrifical ceremony + 1
1 hd victim +1
victim is tortured for a day ( some Healing spells to be sure they don't die ) + 1
victim is willing but controlled ( brainwashing, dependency from magical drugs, intimidation ecc. ) + 1


That makes a + 26 bonus for the skill check on sacrifices, at level 1 ( it only goes up ). Even assuming the Cleric always aim for the minimum result ( 27 at level 1 ), that would means ( 27 x 5 ) 135 points ( either xp or gp ) of Dark Craft for every sacrifice, for a total of 604.800 points for 1.344 sacrifices. Actually, the total would be considerably higher because the Cleric would raise his Knowledge skill, access to Dissacrate and Profanate spells and be able to summon fiends to assist the sacrifices, all things that would eventually boost his checks.
Every party member would end up with more than 120.000 gp of magic equipment, which is quite good for a level 7 party. They would just need to buy the steel necessary to forge the items and weapons themselves.

So, what you think about that idea?

[BWR]

It sounds like it should be in the 3.x forum.

It sounds like the other side of an adventure hook. Were I the GM they could expect some heroes coming around soon. Yes, whole villages are lost to monsters and enemy action but you know what? People notice that and send someone to find out what's going on. And at low level they may very well be killed by farmers protecting themselves. Even if we assume everyone there is a 1st level Commoner, with no more advanced commoners or even people with heroic levels.

Regarding CR - the important thing is 'challenge'. The characters won't be getting XP from everyone because not everyone will be trying to fight. Most will be trying to run away, or cower in a corner or something. Unless there is actual challenge, actual chance of failure, there is no proper encounter and there will be no xp in any meaningful way.

The mechanics? These people still need to get to however many levels they need for all this nonsense (at least 3rd, considering the spell use) without dying or getting caught or being run off. Then they need a safe base of operation to store all their victims, and a place to perform the torture rituals. Again, this sounds like a more traditional adventure from the other side: expect heroes knocking on your door any day.

'just need to buy the steel' - great, where do they get the money? I doubt the combined riches of these villages amount to all that much. Then you have to sell it, which either means finding some unscrupulous merchants or come to some other town loaded with what looks like loot from villages. "You know how villages A, B and C all went mysteriously silent? Well, a bunch of guys just came to town with what looks like combined stuff from three villages; coincidence?"

What it sounds like to me is people trying to game the system.
Were I running an evil game I'd allow the PCs to try but unless they were very clever about it they couldn't expect things to go according to plan.

[Gastronomie]

And this is why the villain characters are so high-level.

But really, whether this works or not (as well as whether the player characters get hunted down by some army or order) is completely up to the DM.

[RazorChain]

This reminds me of a comic in Dragon Magazine where a peasant runs into town screaming "Run, a fighter who only needs 5 xp to level 20 is on his way"

[Toadkiller]

Which is why xp is a silly concept that's way past its sell by date.

[Mastikator]

Murdering 300+ people only to learn how to get better at murdering people is some next level messed up stuff. I tell you hwhat.

(and is a great example of why killing people should not be the main mechanism of gaining EXP, unless you consider WOW a proper RPG)

[NorthernPhoenix]

Murdering 300+ people only to learn how to get better at murdering people is some next level messed up stuff. I tell you hwhat.

(and is a great example of why killing people should not be the main mechanism of gaining EXP, unless you consider WOW a proper RPG)

Even WoW has the basic idea that killing something way beneath you grants no experience down.

[Zombimode]

Which is why xp is a silly concept that's way past its sell by date.

Because of a thought experiment that make erroneous assumptions, disregards any consequences within the game world, doesn't take the context of the game in consideration and that doesn't even work by the rules as written?
That's why "xp is a silly concept that's way past its sell by date" ? Sure, I mean if reinforcing your preconceived notions is everything you care about, grasping at straws is probably fine.

Ignoring all the reason why this would be a bad idea in or out of game, it doesn't work by the rules themselves. Check DMG p. 39. You don't get XP for an encounter that doesn't challenge you at all. Even if the encounter calculator provides a number >0. Experience points are awarded for overcoming challenges. NOT for killing creatures. Thats why you can't really "cheat" the system.

The reason why CR 1/4 creatures provide xp awards for higher level PCs is that there are situations where the presence or absence of such creatures does influence the challenge of the encounter. Even if the creatures by themselves wouldn't be a challenge for the PCs. The designers thought this would not extend to all levels so they had to draw a line somewhere. The line (level 7 in this case) is arbitrary but such is the nature of a sorites paradox.

[Florian]

@Conradine:

No challenge, no XP.
Should also explain why you gain no XP for each rabbit/cow/sheep/chicken you hunt down and eat.
Or why commoners don´t rule the world.

On a side-note, that would explain why you never encounter low-level Skinsaw Cultists.

[Alent]

Since killing commoners has negative consequences, why not kill 1/4 CR housecats? They cost 3cp to buy and in many cases commoners will probably pay you to exterminate the lethal vermin.

Nevermind that any sensible DM will look at you and shout "no!" before hitting you with a nerf Mjolnir. :smallamused:

[Strigon]

I seem to be missing something here; isn't this horribly inefficient?
I mean, first off, killing extremely poor people with no means of defense means that, while you may eventually get to be a higher level, you'll be far behind the curve in terms of wealth.

Secondly, the time this would take - when compared to standard adventuring - is absolutely ludicrous. You'd have to find a village, establish that there isn't even one person who is a threat to you, and start killing people who can run away as fast as you run at them. 4 people slaughtering a whole village will take a while, especially once the Wizard runs out of spells. Then you find another village, rinse and repeat. For a very long time.

Third, I think this is far riskier than you seem to believe. Either you're targeting farms and homesteads away from civilization - which means it's even slower - or you risk a militia/town watch killing you. Remember, at low levels, a crit can easily take you out of the action. Even a handful of level 1 warriors is a credible threat; especially if led by a captain or leading a resistance of commoners. You're also weaker to environmental factors, like fire or booby traps.
And then, even if you do stick to isolated families, you still have to worry about retaliation (the local lord wouldn't take kindly to all his farmers being killed off, and hires a higher-level party to hunt you down) and retired adventurers (a level 8 fighter who retired after losing an arm can still wipe the floor with a level 3 party.)

Sure, it would work, but why even bother?

[Shnigda]

Just going to put this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dAxZVZgpmI0&ab_channel=Murphologistu) out there.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I'm with BWR, this sounds like an adventure hook. If you can drop the right amount of clues, it could be a very decent murder mystery. Since they're getting so much dark craft gp/xp, there'd be plenty of loot for PCs to find, as well (even just discards from the 120.000 gp pile are worthwhile).

Edit: not levelling up makes the WBL disparity even more pronounced. It's a decent way to get rich, I suppose.

[Red Fel]

So, what you think about that idea?

I think it speaks to a fundamental misunderstanding of encounter-based exp. Or, put differently:


No challenge, no XP.
Should also explain why you gain no XP for each rabbit/cow/sheep/chicken you hunt down and eat.
Or why commoners don´t rule the world.

This.

You get exp for overcoming obstacles or challenges, not simply for killing. Killing awards exp when the thing you're killing is an obstacle. When you kill the guard instead of diplomancing him, exp. When you kill the Kobolds instead of stealthing past them, exp. When you kill the Dragon instead of bluffing him, exp.

But just killing things to kill things is a downtime activity. It's like when the Fighter says, "I go to the bar and roll to get drunk." If he then asks how much exp he gets, you tell him, "You don't get exp for getting drunk, shut up and eat your Cheetohs." Killing randos is the same thing.

If every body were worth exp, you could simply use the anthill method of leveling - get a boiling teakettle, find an anthill, and pour boiling water in. Ants may be worth a fraction of a fraction of an exp, but there are thousands of the little buggers in an anthill community. Heck, get an AoE and blow up the field - there've got to be tons of anthills in that area, if there's one, and that means tons of (fractions of) experience, right?

No. Simply going around killing things doesn't award exp.

[Conradine]

You get exp for overcoming obstacles or challenges, not simply for killing.


Actually, there is a challenge and it's not the mere act of killing weak commoner.
The challenge is doing it in a way that provide you a big reward and don't get you caught. The characters do not simply go on a rampage in a village ( and then get chased by the national guard ).

They must:

- choose carefully isolated enough location
- spread they attacks enough to not raise too much heat in a single area
- prepare a lair / evil temple hidden in the wilderness
- capture alive the commoners
- care to leave no witness and allow no one to escape
- bring them to the lair discretly enough to not be seen and leaving no evident tracks
- sacrifice them correctly to get Dark Craft rewards


There is the planning, there is the challenge, and there is also the treasure ( the Dark Craft items ).

[zergling.exe]

Actually, there is a challenge and it's not the mere act of killing weak commoner.
The challenge is doing it in a way that provide you a big reward and don't get you caught. The characters do not simply go on a rampage in a village ( and then get chased by the national guard ).

They must:

- choose carefully isolated enough location
- spread they attacks enough to not raise too much heat in a single area
- prepare a lair / evil temple hidden in the wilderness
- capture alive the commoners
- care to leave no witness and allow no one to escape
- bring them to the lair discretly enough to not be seen and leaving no evident tracks
- sacrifice them correctly to get Dark Craft rewards


There is the planning, there is the challenge, and there is also the treasure ( the Dark Craft items ).

This is no longer serial killing commoners, which is what most people are referring to with the no challenge bit. It has become 'How do I kidnap enough people to craft magic items through sacrifices without getting caught?' The commoners are in no way a challenge, as a sap will be able to knock any commoner out in one hit for easy transport.

[Urpriest]

As others have pointed out, serial killers are in fact sometimes higher than level 1, so presumably it is possible to gain XP through serial killing. That doesn't mean it's a particularly good way for PCs to do it.

[Conradine]

Regarding CR - the important thing is 'challenge'. The characters won't be getting XP from everyone because not everyone will be trying to fight. Most will be trying to run away, or cower in a corner or something.

That is the challenge. If three commoners charge at the Fighter with their gardening tools, dispatch them is easy. But when they run in three different directions, or hide somewhere in the farm, and if even one of them manage to reach the nearest town the game is over, then the heavy armor that reduces movement speed and the zero points in Listen / Observe skill become heavy problems. And the help of the evil Ranger becomes required.


It sounds like the other side of an adventure hook. Were I the GM they could expect some heroes coming around soon. Yes, whole villages are lost to monsters and enemy action but you know what? People notice that and send someone to find out what's going on. And at low level they may very well be killed by farmers protecting themselves.

Exactly. That's why the evil party must spread the attacks and travel as much they could between them. They must stealth, scout the places they raid well before the raid itself, and do their best to aknowledge the presence of possible dangers.



just need to buy the steel' - great, where do they get the money? I doubt the combined riches of these villages amount to all that much.

I didn't meant "buy the finite product" ( perfect weapons and armors ) but to buy the raw material, the metal. Then one of the party members ( with many points in the appropriate Artisian skills ) would forge them himself, then the Cleric and the Wizard would provide the enchantement. They can also melt every iron tool the can scavenge from the commoners and make their own steel.


The line (level 7 in this case) is arbitrary but such is the nature of a sorites paradox.

The line is not arbitrary. In the DM Guide xp chart, a creature that is 8 levels or more under the average party level grants no xp, so the maximum reachable level for killing CR 1 creatures is 9 ( then CR 1/2 -> 8 and CR 1/4 -> 7 ).




This is no longer serial killing commoners, which is what most people are referring to with the no challenge bit. It has become 'How do I kidnap enough people to craft magic items through sacrifices without getting caught?'

Become?
It was that from the first post. I'm sorry if the title is misguiding, I assumed that at least the first post would be read.



The commoners are in no way a challenge, as a sap will be able to knock any commoner out in one hit for easy transport.


The problem is not knocking down one commoner in some arena. That would be worthless.
The problem is that they usually are not alone, even in small establishments.
The problem is:

- if even one commoner manage to run away
- if even one commoner manage to hide
- if even one commoner was outside home, return in the middle of the raid, see what is happening from a long distance and choose to run or hide

Then the area will be aware that a band of well organized raiders is operating there.
They must scout the area of every attack, precisely count the commoners, be sure they get them all and that either they're too far from other establishments to be heard or that the raid makes no noise.

They also must dispose of the bodies ( Speak with the Dead, every first level cleric would be able to acknowledge what happened if a corpse is found ), leave no tracks travelling to the lair, be sure no casual wanderer ( pastors, hunters, lumberjacks ) stumble upon the lair, keep the prisoners well guarded untill the sacrifices are completed.


I agree it's low risk compared to adventuring but it's not zero risk and every step requires planning.

[zergling.exe]

The line is not arbitrary. In the DM Guide xp chart, a creature that is 8 levels or more under the average party level grants no xp, so the maximum reachable level for killing CR 1 creatures is 9 ( then CR 1/2 -> 8 and CR 1/4 -> 7 ).

That it is 8 CR below your level is arbitrary. They could have just as easily made it so that you would have to be within 1 level of the CR to get exp for it and it would be just as arbitrary. Abitrary just means that they chose some point for the cutoff, regardless of where it is.


Become?
It was that from the first post. I'm sorry if the title is misguiding, I assumed that at least the first post would be read.
Some people on this board don't even finish reading the title before they post. Having an accurate title is crucial, as it will color how people view the opening post. Thus "Serial killing commons" colors people's view to 'this is a thread about killing commoners,' even if there are other details.


The problem is not knocking down one commoner in some arena. That would be worthless.
The problem is that they usually are not alone, even in small establishments.
The point of the sap is to take targets alive. Kidnapping is just about as perfect a scenario for the sap as you can get.:smallsigh:

[Conradine]

I mean, first off, killing extremely poor people with no means of defense means that, while you may eventually get to be a higher level, you'll be far behind the curve in terms of wealth.


Please read the OP before answering.



I'm with BWR, this sounds like an adventure hook. If you can drop the right amount of clues, it could be a very decent murder mystery. Since they're getting so much dark craft gp/xp, there'd be plenty of loot for PCs to find, as well (even just discards from the 120.000 gp pile are worthwhile).


Yep, although it would be terribly corrupted equipement.

[Kyberwulf]

Yeah from the title of the thread, it sounds more like you and three friends go around trying to find an kill random Level 1 commoners. As other people said, that isn't a challenge. Well, depending on the race of the commoner >.> (this seems like you want play some KKK version of D&D) The only way you could get experience from that, is if you stay on one area. Kill people for awhile. The longer you stay, and the more attention it draws. Which would make it hard to kill Level 1 commoners. Then Yeah, I can see some experience points being awarded out.

From what you post, it's not serial killing. It's more in line of an evil scheme to get rich and power. Like you are at the starting level of an Evil Overlord.

What is the actual Exp table for 1v1 Commoner. The table in the books is for a "Standard" group of 4 people isn't it? If its a little more inline. Couldn't you then theoretically Dig a pit. Throw commoners into the pit with some kind of weapon. Hop into it and then 1v1 them?

[Conradine]

If its a little more inline. Couldn't you then theoretically Dig a pit. Throw commoners into the pit with some kind of weapon. Hop into it and then 1v1 them?

It would be a good training for the evil Warrior. Well, it could be a good training for the whole party ( after all, even the Wizard develops some basic fighting skills ). They could challenge the prisoners in 1vs1 fights, make them pass out with non lethal damage, then repeat untill they are no longer able to get up, then sacrifice them to the Dark Gods.

It would be resources optimization.

[Kyberwulf]

Sorry, I just have to say this. I can't stop laughing at the thought of a bunch of High Elves in overalls riding around in a haywagon. With the one driving, whilst having a piece of Hay in his mouth, Yelling "GIT' THEM DARKIE ELVES!!" then taking a swig of his Moonshine Wine.

KKK D&D.

[Conradine]

It's funny! But I prefer Equal Opportunity Evil.

" Really, it's nothing personal. I don't hate halflings. I just happen to grisly torture and sacrifice to the Dark Gods everyone I manage to kidnap. "

[Divide by Zero]

If the challenge is in avoiding detection, rather than combat, then isn't the CR of the commoners irrelevant? It'd be up to the DM to decide what reward is appropriate for the whole operation, which has nothing to do with an individual commoner's (lack of) threat level.

[ExLibrisMortis]

If the challenge is in avoiding detection, rather than combat, then isn't the CR of the commoners irrelevant? It'd be up to the DM to decide what reward is appropriate for the whole operation, which has nothing to do with an individual commoner's (lack of) threat level.
Pretty much - you're using the investigator's CR, based on the chance they'll catch the PCs, and on the consequences of the PCs being found by said investigator. At first, it will come down to the investigator's skill modifiers. I can think of uses for Gather Information, Listen, Knowledge (Local), Knowledge (Geography), Search, Spot, Survival, and so on. After that, it's down to ambush strength.

The investigator might just be a low-level ranger, with highly optimized Favoured Enemy (Evil) and Nemesis, teaching the commoners to become Tucker's kobolds.

[Florian]

The investigator might just be a low-level ranger, with highly optimized Favoured Enemy (Evil) and Nemesis, teaching the commoners to become Tucker's kobolds.

Or one of the "commoners" turns out to be a Vigilante with the social identity being the commoner.

[Conradine]

If the challenge is in avoiding detection, rather than combat, then isn't the CR of the commoners irrelevant?


The challenge is capturing commoners alive, bring them to the hidden lair and successfully sacrifice them in order to gain profit. And do all that without raising heat, getting caught or leaving evidence.

The CR of the commoners is relevant: doing that against a level 1 commoners isn't the same as trying to do that with giants, troll, or high-level characters.

[Gallowglass]

Or one of the "commoners" turns out to be a Vigilante with the social identity being the commoner.

Now I want to make a batman superhero named "The Commoner".

"What can I use as a symbol? What strikes fear in the hearts of men?"

*1/4 cr farmer comes crashing through the window. Dies immediately from a shard of broken glass*

"Of course! I shall be.... the Commoner!"

[Kyberwulf]

Ohhh, .. use a Housecat symbol for his signal.

[skyth]

If you want higher levels, just have the commoners fight each other in gladiatorial combat to level them up :)

[Yahzi]

Assuming that if a CR 1 gives experience
You just described my world.

The answer to your question is: no, you can't go out and hunt peasants, any more than you can go out and hunt cattle. Somebody owns those peasants, and that somebody has been collecting XP for their deaths for years, so that somebody is a high-level character.

In my world people give off XP when they die (even from old age). The barons and kings collect this XP, just like they collect taxes. This makes them high level and thus strong enough to fight off monsters (and other barons and kings) that want to eat the peasants for their XP.

And poof, you have a feudal world, where nobles really are superior beings to peasants, and where murder-hobos are kept in check because crawling through dungeons just isn't as lucrative as running counties. Huge estates of poor, hard-working farmers protected by glittering heroes in shining armor, where adventurers are the poor cousins who have to go out into the wild to climb the ladder so they can try and become as awesome as the heroes of the realm. A system based on personal loyalty and fighting prowess, because power resides in individuals and must always be ready to deploy against terrifying monsters. A system in which the brave and the lucky can join the ranks of nobility, but where inheriting an estate is a guarantee of at least a certain amount of physical power. And a world where you can estimate a noble's power by the size of his estate.

It really works out great.

[GnomishPride]

You just described my world.

The answer to your question is: no, you can't go out and hunt peasants, any more than you can go out and hunt cattle. Somebody owns those peasants, and that somebody has been collecting XP for their deaths for years, so that somebody is a high-level character.

In my world people give off XP when they die (even from old age). The barons and kings collect this XP, just like they collect taxes. This makes them high level and thus strong enough to fight off monsters (and other barons and kings) that want to eat the peasants for their XP.

And poof, you have a feudal world, where nobles really are superior beings to peasants, and where murder-hobos are kept in check because crawling through dungeons just isn't as lucrative as running counties. Huge estates of poor, hard-working farmers protected by glittering heroes in shining armor, where adventurers are the poor cousins who have to go out into the wild to climb the ladder so they can try and become as awesome as the heroes of the realm. A system based on personal loyalty and fighting prowess, because power resides in individuals and must always be ready to deploy against terrifying monsters. A system in which the brave and the lucky can join the ranks of nobility, but where inheriting an estate is a guarantee of at least a certain amount of physical power. And a world where you can estimate a noble's power by the size of his estate.

It really works out great.

That sounds really cool!

[Celluloid Flick]

I'd say that this is very morally shaky.

[Manyasone]

That sounds really cool!

Disagree, but I think that has more to do with my personal dislike for 'nobility' and 'entitled'

[Yahzi]

Disagree, but I think that has more to do with my personal dislike for 'nobility' and 'entitled'
But in this case, nobles really are better than common people. The D&D world basically enforces this on you; people with class levels are just better than ordinary people. They're even morally better: under a Detect Alignment spell, they glow brighter.

My system at least makes it an economic thing, instead of a genetic thing. Remember the old D&D described castelleans and mercenary officers as mid-level fighters "incapable of progressing any higher." It never said why they couldn't; the rules just stated that only some people could advance, and everyone else was stuck.

[Conradine]

My system at least makes it an economic thing, instead of a genetic thing. Remember the old D&D described castelleans and mercenary officers as mid-level fighters "incapable of progressing any higher." It never said why they couldn't; the rules just stated that only some people could advance, and everyone else was stuck.


I'm intersted in that. Could you link me the source, or the title of the manual please?

( I'm a bit obsessed about the concept of "the limit of the common man" )

[JKTrickster]

But in this case, nobles really are better than common people. The D&D world basically enforces this on you; people with class levels are just better than ordinary people. They're even morally better: under a Detect Alignment spell, they glow brighter.

My system at least makes it an economic thing, instead of a genetic thing. Remember the old D&D described castelleans and mercenary officers as mid-level fighters "incapable of progressing any higher." It never said why they couldn't; the rules just stated that only some people could advance, and everyone else was stuck.

Wow it did?

That's actually....super elitist :smalleek:

I mean I get why they did it - no one wants to plot out the progression of random NPCs. After all, they shouldn't be progressing - only the PCs should.

But still.....I mean I guess it just reinforces how "no one but the PCs are real people that matter" stereotype.