Beguiler Optimization

[Ethernil]

I recently played a factotum in a 3.5 game and we are preparing for a new campaign. I liked the class but felt a bit outshone by the wizard and cleric, mainly in combat. This time i was thinking of using a more caster oriented skill monkey. The dm is very stingy with granting treasure, well below the wbl guidelines, and also offers very limited availability of magic items in cities so i felt that as a caster i wont need as many items to stay relevant. Also i generally liked the beguiler chasis. I m considering the following builds, the goal is a caster skill monkey:

1)human full beguiler with 2 or more sand shaper levels for extra spells for utility and enemies immune to enchantment illusion
2)human beguiler with 2 lvls of incarnate and 10 of soulcaster, this loses many skill points per lvl but i believe soulmelds can actually give more skill points than 4 per lvl
3)changeling beguiler with 4-5 levels of recaster, using the prc extra spell feature to grab polymorph and some other versatile spell or heal
4)changeling or gnome beguiler shadowcraft mage, though thats pretty op and i might get stuff thrown at me
5)human beguiler with a 1 level binder dip and anima mage 10, again vestiges can cover skill point loss and combat prowess vs mindless oponents
6)completely ditch beguiler and go spellthief 1, wizard 4 unseen seer, i like beguiler more

I m looking for advice for people who have personal experience from similar characters on classes, feats etc. Psionics and dragon-dungeon magazine stuff are out, pretty much anything else wotc is available, PLZ no pathfinder advice, it is a dnd 3.5 game.

[Venger]

beguiler's one of my favorite classes. nicholas the paladin's (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=c634f48cm4vd8i0okl8j0ii6o1&topic=2322.0) handbook is an excellent place to start as far as basics and potential build stubs go.

[tiercel]

Obligatory Handbook link (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=363.0)

Vanilla human beguiler 20 is pretty solid -- if you're worried about enchantment/illusion immunity, you have A) a handful of buffs B) the ability to hand out dispelling to enemy buffstacks C) divinations and in particular D) UMD. (Granted, the latter is less good in your campaign, but even getting your hands on one partially-charged blasty item would address a good deal of your woes.)

Whisper gnome is a pretty sick-good race (generally, but especially for Beguiler) even if you aren't indulging in Shadowcraft Mage madness.

Darkstalker (Lords of Madness) is highly useful for any stealthy build that doesn't want to be constantly sprung by scent, tremorsense, blindsense.

Taking Mindbender 1 (Complete Arcane) nets you telepathy (very tasty) while maintaing spell progression, plus can delay your Advanced Learning until you get a higher spell level, PLUS qualifies you for the cheesetastic Mindsight feat (Lords of Madness, but check your DM's lactose tolerance first). It's arguably worth giving up the Beguiler 20 capstone for, and if you are unlikely to make 20th level/spend any significant time playing at 20th level, it's almost a pure upgrade without deviating from Beguiler much.

Sand Shaper's spell expansion is indeed very tasty, but your skills are taking a little more of a hit, and more to the point, you're now a full spell level behind the Wizard or CoDzilla :/

IMO, if you really want to stick to the "arcane skillmonkey" archetype you probably want to have as many Beguiler levels as possible (unless you are aiming for an Unseen Seer type build or even more of a Spellthief build, which are just different creatures -- the Beguiler, for one thing, is an arcane skillmonkey from Level 1).

[Venger]

if none of your favorite build elements require you to be evil, these are some things to consider

if your DM's not giving you enough loot, you might consider going exalted. only one of beguiler's spells actually deals hit point damage (legion of sentinels) and only one is a death effect (power word kill) so vow of nonviolence is a no brainer, boosting all your DCs by 4 essentially for free (and if your party consents, look at vow of peace)

depending on your degree of system mastery and the op level of the game, theurging with apostle of peace is a possibility. you might even jam vow of poverty in there since if you're not getting money anyway, you might as well try to cover your bases, and a caster like beguiler can survive under these conditions.

[d20familiar]

Also an obligatory link to Tempest's Gnowhere Gnome (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?471355-Weekly-Optimization-Showcase-Gnowhere-Gnome-(Tempest_Stormwind)) build.

[Seppo87]

Beguiler SCM is not overpowered without Earth Spell.
Just don't take the feat.

Instead, for something different:
Dip into spellthief and grab the master spellthief feat.
Use ray of stupidity or shadow evocation for sneak attack.

Prcs are scm (full), unseen seer (for qualification) and arcane trickster at the end.

Just make sure to get the best from advanced study.

This build produces a very versatile beguiler and a fun alternative to the killer gnome.

[Mr Adventurer]

Given the restrictions you're under, I wouldn't bother with anything that sacrifices spellcasting levels - including Master Spellthief.

[ATHATH]

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the Rainbow Servant PrC.

Admittedly, the synergy that it has with fixed-list casters might be a bit too powerful for the OP's game.

[noce]

If campaign-appropriate, a level dip into Shadow Adept is gold.
You get fluff, three free feats and casting progression, and dipping allows Advanced Learning to apply to spells one level higher.

[Ethernil]

I also want to try both meldshapers and binders, thats why i was thinking of soulcaster or binder. I believe they are only viable as skill monkeys in multiclass builds. And i also like the sneaky trickster style of the beguiler. We play in faerun but the dm was kinda skeptical about whisper gnomes. And tbh i m not entirely sure i ll enjoy being 3 feet tall.

[Grim Reader]

Beguilers are really strong characters at low levels. They remain strong, but at some point in the mid-levels, the flow of really good spells start to choke off, and they have a targeting problem.

Sand shaper fixes a lot of that, but you do lose a level of casting. Fiend-blooded gives you extra spells with no loss of casting, as long as you drop it before level 10. Also gives you other goodies.

Grab one of the Dragon Compendiums heritage feats, and arcane disciple, preferably for Summoning.

[Venger]

Beguilers are really strong characters at low levels. They remain strong, but at some point in the mid-levels, the flow of really good spells start to choke off, and they have a targeting problem.

Sand shaper fixes a lot of that, but you do lose a level of casting. Fiend-blooded gives you extra spells with no loss of casting, as long as you drop it before level 10. Also gives you other goodies.

Grab one of the Dragon Compendiums heritage feats, and arcane disciple, preferably for Summoning.

Fiend blooded is fun, but a beguiler will have trouble getting in since it doesn't have planes as a class skill

wild soul is a good class in this vein and gives a handful more spells known at each level

[Ethernil]

Bloodline feats are from dragon compedium, which is dragon magazine which is banned.
Wild soul spell list doesnt have any spells beguiler doesnt get that are good, with the exception of summon seelie ally. Also it is 2 skill per lvl and you have to take it all. Sand shaper with even 1 level grants you 43 spellls, many of which are good.
I hadnt seen fiend blooded before, i ll have to check if heroes of horror are available.

[Norin]

In my experience from playing a beguilder from 1 to 9 or so says that you need to shore up on your inability to do useful stuff in encounters with plants, constructs and undeads.
I was forced to UMD wands and use a limited amount of BFC's for alot of dungeons where those types of enemies were frequent.

My party at the time had a buffer/controler focused wizard/warweaver in it, so my backup buffs and bfc felt bland at best.

Your idea of splashing into Sandshaper for expanded list, or even going SCM/gnome is what I would do as well to be a more versatile beguiler and feel useful in a wider set of encounters.
Then again it all depends on your playstyle and the rest of your party.

[Ethernil]

Since the group is really low op I ll go with a 2 lvl dip sand shaper keeping most of the beguiler (18). I doubt I ll have a problem with losing a spell caster level and the buffs, summons and few offensive spells are gona come in handy. Sand form from lvl 2 is bound to be useful for sneakiness, the rest of the prc features seem lackluster, offers low skill points and you miss out on the beguiler identity. With the extra spells from beguiler I ll grab (greater) shadow evocation/conjuration and shades probably.
I guess I ll try incarnum or binder in another character, hybrids tend to be weaker it seems, at least without cheesing it.

[Seppo87]

Afaik, figments are not mind-affecting - undead and constructs can be fooled by illusions.

[Cosi]

Domains are your friend. Dip PrCs that offer domains at first level (Rainbow Servant, Divine Oracle). Take Arcane Disciple for extra domains. Don't give up caster levels. You're already a level behind and none of the stuff PrCs offer you is really worth it. Shadowcraft Mage and Rainbow Servant are the best PrCs, depending on when you think the game is going to end. Use illusions, minions, UMD, and/or various extra spells from domains or PrCs to handle anything that is immune to enchantment.


Afaik, figments are not mind-affecting - undead and constructs can be fooled by illusions.

Yep. Mindless things lose really hard to illusions. Just stick it in an illusionary box and stop worrying.

[Ethernil]

Correct me if i m mistaken but domains require wisdom score to cast spells. So does rainbow servant which actually loses 4 caster levels (dm only accepts it as such, he says giving it full casting is too strong). And i did mention the dm is harsh with magic item availability, he considers ability tomes and +6 ability gear exotic and rare. Our campaigns usually start at lvl 1 and go into the low epics (around 25 i suppose, not deadset).

Divine Oracle does grant a domain, it is full casting and offers many of the rogue class features (uncanny dodge, evasion etc) and the capstone seems really strong, unfortunately it is only 2 skill points/lvl and i ll miss on a ton of the beguiler stuff.

I think i found a pretty strong but not op build. Take a dip of Paragnostic apostle at lvl 6 to qualify for urban savant. d6 hp(not that it matters much), 6 skill points per lvl, bardic lore ability(although with low bonus) and a bunch of abilities that feel like cheating the dm (you get to know most stuff about your enemies). Basically the prc is the "know-it-all" and lets you do lots of fun stuff with your knowledge skills. This won't make you an offensive powerhouse but a utility support character.

[Divide by Zero]

Correct me if i m mistaken but domains require wisdom score to cast spells.

That's only the case with Arcane Disciple. For prestige classes that grant domains, they just use your regular casting stat. Though there can be other limitations depending on your spellcasting mechanic - see Complete Divine page 20 for the full info.