Chaotic Good for Oath of Devotion paladin?

[NiklasWB]

Hey playground.

Can a Chaotic Good Paladin also be an Oath of Devotion paladin? I mean, I’m pretty sure they technically can by the rules in 5e, but does it make sense? I have character who is a paladin of Selune. Selune is Chaotic Good, and I’m assuming most of her followers would be as well. So I’m just trying to work out if the alignment and the oath is compatible in this instance.

Mechanically, the Oath of Devotion is the only Oath that fits with what the character is (Ancients is too druid-y and fey/elvish and Vengeance is too Batman/Punisher). But I’m not sure the tenets of the Oath of Devotion would work for a Chaotic Good character.

Let's have a look:

Honesty. Don’t lie or cheat. Let your word be your promise.

This is probably one of the harder ones to work around. Someone who is Chaotic Good should probably be able to lie, at least to protect someone. Maybe I’m reading this the wrong way. Can you still lie (or refuse to answer) in certain circumstances even if you are generally always honest?

Courage. Never fear to act, though caution is wise.

No problem.

Compassion. Aid others, protect the weak, and punish those who threaten them. Show mercy to your foes, but temper it with wisdom.

No problem.

Honor. Treat others with fairness, and let your honorable deeds be an example to them. Do as much good as possible while causing the least amount of harm.

No problem.

Duty. Be responsible for your actions and their consequences, protect those entrusted to your care, and obey those who have just authority over you.

The first two parts should be no problem. He is responsible for what he does (even if he does what he believes to be right no matter what the law says, he is still responsible for it) and he protects those in his care… and I’m not sure if the last part is really a problem either. He obeys his paladin order (his superiors) and the Church he belong to, but the Duty tenet says nothing about Law per se. So far as I can tell, you don’t need to obey the king, the city guard or anyone if they don’t have ‘JUST’ authority over you. I’m also wondering if ‘JUST’ authority is somewhat subjective. What if you believe that the king or the guard is corrupt and doing something unjust? That should overrule the Duty tenet right? Could the Duty tenet extend only to your religious superiors and not to other worldly superiors?

What do you guys think? I'm wondering is all of these things could be made clear in his specific oath that he took, and if a Chaotic Good paladin of Devotion could therefore work?

[TheTeaMustFlow]

Seems perfectly reasonable - it's not as if Chaotic Good characters break rules just for the sake of breaking them - they 'act as their conscience directs, with little regard for what others respect', so as long as the rules and their conscience are in accord, they'll happily stick to them.

Furthermore, even if the Oath didn't completely match up with the character, you could make that work. For example, you could have a character who made an Oath in a rash moment and is starting to regret it, but their conscience won't let them break the promise they made (I've been wanting to play for a while an extremely Lawful Evil character who was tricked into an Oath of Devotion somehow and is stuck with it).

So yeah, no real problems here as I see it.

[JackPhoenix]

Honesty: you can always refuse to answer a question. However, I can imagine small lies (no, honey, you don't look fat in that dress...) won't break the oath, if you don't lie too often.

Duty: I see no problem with chaotic good character who doesn't consider mortals to have rightful authority, and listens only to his goddess.

And you can always try to ask your DM to change the oath somewhat. I see the tenets in PHB as possible examples, not absolute requirements. Different gods have different expectations from their servants (ignoring the fact that the paladin isn't required to follow a god).

[Logosloki]

CG devotion paladin sounds like most Hollywood protagonist. Caesar from planet of the apes comes to mind.

[Millstone85]

Honesty. Don’t lie or cheat. Let your word be your promise.

This is probably one of the harder ones to work around. Someone who is Chaotic Good should probably be able to lie, at least to protect someone.At the risk of sounding like the brony that I am, you could replace Honesty with Loyalty. Be a dependable companion. Stay true to the bonds you forge. Now it is about people, not words.

[NiklasWB]

Thank you all for you input. It makes me happy to hear that everyone doesn't automatically think Oath of Devotion = you have to be Lawful Good.

[Gwendol]

Well, oath of the crown is certainly more Lawful than devotion. That said, I think Honor and Duty are harder for a character of chaotic alignment, as those are typically linked to the Law of the land. Honor is linked to ones name and reputation.

[Regitnui]

Can a Devotion paladin be altruistic and self-accountable? Then yes.

[Temperjoke]

We all have people that we see as having "just" authority over us. It's just a question of what causes us to recognize that authority. For example, being a member of a church, it'd be natural to assume that high-ranking officials would have authority over you, after all, in theory, they are extensions of your chosen god's will. To me, being chaotic means that you value your personal beliefs over society's rules. So if society clashes with your religion, you'd pick your religion typically, since it's an extension of your beliefs. At the same time, if the religious figures in your religion prove to be false, or move counter to your beliefs (and why you chose this religion), then you'd be willing to move against them as well.

[jas61292]

The trickiest part is definitely the "obey just authority" part, but I don't actually think that is too bad. The key is determining what you consider to be just and sticking with it. I think the important thing here to remember though is that just authority is all about how the authority is derived, and absolutely not about who wields the authority. And I think one key thing to remember is that authority over you is not simply limited to your order or religion. Unless you are an anarchist, you would need to respect the laws of whatever land you are in, just like any other citizen, so long as you believe those laws to come from one who has just authority. Again though, it is up to you to determine what you believe makes authority just.

Maybe you are into the whole divine right of kings thing, and respect such rulers, but not any government that results from other means. Alternatively, maybe you believe that authority must be derived from the people in order to be just, and would have no respect for a king and his laws. But, again, its about the authority being legitimate, not about you liking it. For example, if you go with the later situation and you respect authority derived from the people, and then the people of a land who's governmental authority you respect elect a racist moron as their leader, you can't suddenly reject his just authority because you dislike him.

Importantly though, following such leaders and their laws doesn't mean you are not chaotic. Most chaotic people follow most laws, because stability in life provided by such things is generally good. Chaotic alignment is far more about the things you deem important and how you approach things than your actual interaction with laws.

[Gwendol]

Chaotic characters only obey laws out of convenience, or if the laws coincide with their personal beliefs/goals (at the time).

[hamishspence]

Well, oath of the crown is certainly more Lawful than devotion. That said, I think Honor and Duty are harder for a character of chaotic alignment, as those are typically linked to the Law of the land. Honor is linked to ones name and reputation.

I could see both applying at the "barbarian tribe" level though - duty to one's people - honoring one's word, etc.

[SharkForce]

it's the lawful/chaotic axis, not the legal/illegal axis. a lawful person probably likes having rules to live by, but they don't necessarily like the rules that govern the country they're in, and they can consistently go against the laws of the country they're in without risking losing the "lawful" part of their alignment in the slightest.

likewise, a chaotic character is probably not particularly a fan of firm rules that are set in stone, especially if they can't see a good reason for the rule to be in place (which is not necessarily the same thing as there not being a good reason for that law to be in place) but that doesn't mean they see a sign that says "no loitering" and immediately go straight under that sign and loiter as hard as they can.

[hymer]

I'll echo the sentiment that the two are not incompatible. It seems likely, though, that years spent upholding this oath may nudge the character away from chaotic. But it depends on what happens in their life. And it's not like switching to NG would burn any bridges, I presume.

[Gwendol]

I could see both applying at the "barbarian tribe" level though - duty to one's people - honoring one's word, etc.

Sure, but that includes overthrowing the current leader (for example) if the character believes it to be right. And the word of a chaotic aligned character might not necessarily be true.

[Gwendol]

I'll echo the sentiment that the two are not incompatible. It seems likely, though, that years spent upholding this oath may nudge the character away from chaotic. But it depends on what happens in their life. And it's not like switching to NG would burn any bridges, I presume.

Agreed. As I said before, devotion can be chaotic. Crown not so much.

[JNAProductions]

I see no issues with it. And remember-you CAN lie. You shouldn't, but if you're infiltrating the BBEG's lair and he asks you "Hey, are you trying to kill me?" you're allowed to say "Of course not!"

[thepsyker]

I have character who is a paladin of Selune. Selune is Chaotic Good, and I’m assuming most of her followers would be as well.

I take this to mean that you are the DM? While I think the previous responses have all made very good points, keep in mind that as the Dm you are free to tweak the details of the Oaths to better fit what you wanted them to represent. So if, for example you wanted to replace the Devotion Oaths Honor tenet for the Ancient Oaths Spread Joy* tenet, because it would be more thematically appropriate for a Paladin for Selune** that is perfectly appropriate.



*I'm AFB, but I'm pretty sure the Ancient Oaths has a tenet.
**It occured to me at this point that I was confusing Sune and Selune, but the larger point stands.

[Drackolus]

"Yes, I DID destroy that statue, and let me tell you why: that man was never an image our ideals. He lied, he cheated, he stole. He never followed Pelor's light. You say he's just an icon, but he was a man, and not an honorable one. A law that defends a criminal is not just. If that goes against the church then so be it - but know this, the church, then, does not follow Pelor's light truely."
Basically, a chaotic but devoted person sounds at least somewhat fanatical to me. Which is great.

[Safety Sword]

Law and Chaos can be somewhat subjective.

If I follow the laws in my own land, I am seen to be lawful.

If I follow the laws of my own land in someone else's land, I may appear chaotic to others.

It's like alignment relativity!