Advise on "tank" for spellcaster heavy party

[Raihen]

Hello !

We are going to start new(probably long) Pathfinder campaign. We talked about party composition and who wants to play what. Rest of party decided what they want to play and we got - Ranger(archery), Witch, Druid(focused on spellcasting) and Sorcerer. That left me with as only meele in the group(not counting druid's anima companion), so I most likely need a more tanky character, with some control to not let rest of my party die. Now I wonder which class should I go with. My types so far are Psychic Warrior, Synthesist, Warder and Oradin. I love playing characters that meld together spellcasting and martial prowness - that's why Psychic Warrior looks best for me, however I fear he won't be tanky enough, any kind of dispel(or AMZ...) destroy it and few consecutive fights drain his resources fast, which I know will happen.
Anyone have any experience being only meele in group ? Which character would be best suited for such a task ? Our GM is quite unforgiving when it comes to fights, so I expect we might get wiped(or at least lose couple of characters).

Cheers.

[Florian]

You mean MMO-style mechanical tanking?

[Tuvarkz]

While a Warder is a good choice, given the lack of a second melee, you may or may not be able to keep all of your allies protected at once. Perhaps consider the Path of War Expanded's Zealot? He can redirect damage taken by other allies to himself (and mitigate it by burning power points), and a later level, effectively becomes able to use Bodyguard from range (plus Charisma to AoOs, and adds a scaling bonus to his Aid Another, effectively making the feat far stronger)

[Arc_knight25]

I'm going to suggest Fighter...Okay hear me out.

I know it lacks the spells you stated you liked. And the only thing it really has going for it is Feats. But think of it this way your the only melee. Guess who the party is going to buff to the nine's just to make sure that no one gets close to them. The only resource you have to worry about is HP. So long as that is in the positive you can keep on swinging away.

If your not worried about damage dealing I would go with the Shield Fighter Archetype. Focus on Bull-rushing and defending your squishy casters. If you can protect them in the early game they will protect you in the late.

[upho]

I'd definitely go for warder if I was looking to maximize defender combat efficiency in this party. Though I think a zealot built for the job would also work pretty well, as Tuvarkz said, and they're inherently a bit more "magical" than the warder (disregarding discipline choices).

[Barstro]

Just so it's said; MMO version of "Tank" doesn't really exist. AFAIK, one cannot Taunt.

It would be helpful to know what the rest of your party will be doing, not just what they are. I will assume;
Ranger; Staying away and raining arrows.
Witch; Staying away and using Evil Eye, Misfortune, Slumber
Druid; ??? Using Animal Companion to melee and otherwise battlefield control?
Sorcerer; ??? No idea.

I'm also going to assume that you mean "Tank" as "keep enemies away from all the others while they do the damage. To that end, I suggest it be looked at as more battlefield control and basically turning a group of six enemies into two groups of three. I think the Summoner is good for all this; Eidolon to do the melee while the Summoner itself uses pits to hold off people for a few rounds.

That's all depending on what the Sorcerer will do. If the Sorcerer is doing control instead of damage, then you don't need to concern yourself with pits or walls and just be the guy who runs up to spellcasters to punch them in the face when they try to cast.

I agree that your character will be the one getting all the buffs. I suggest learning what others plan on doing to help you so you can figure out the best way to accept that help.

[Tuvarkz]

Just so it's said; MMO version of "Tank" doesn't really exist. AFAIK, one cannot Taunt.

It would be helpful to know what the rest of your party will be doing, not just what they are. I will assume;
Ranger; Staying away and raining arrows.
Witch; Staying away and using Evil Eye, Misfortune, Slumber
Druid; ??? Using Animal Companion to melee and otherwise battlefield control?
Sorcerer; ??? No idea.

I'm also going to assume that you mean "Tank" as "keep enemies away from all the others while they do the damage. To that end, I suggest it be looked at as more battlefield control and basically turning a group of six enemies into two groups of three. I think the Summoner is good for all this; Eidolon to do the melee while the Summoner itself uses pits to hold off people for a few rounds.

That's all depending on what the Sorcerer will do. If the Sorcerer is doing control instead of damage, then you don't need to concern yourself with pits or walls and just be the guy who runs up to spellcasters to punch them in the face when they try to cast.

I agree that your character will be the one getting all the buffs. I suggest learning what others plan on doing to help you so you can figure out the best way to accept that help.

Considering that Warder's been mentioned in the opening post, a class that explicitly has aggro-like mechanics, there is a functional tank, or two, if Zealot's party damage mitigation and long-distance Bodyguard is a thing.
For short note, two of the main (and gotten at levels 1/2) features of the Warder are: Grant a morale bonus to AC/Will saves to nearby allies other than the Warder and inflict a -4(scaling later) penalty to attack rolls on an enemy's attack to targets other than the warder; then yes there are MMO tank classes, given that Path of War seems to be allowed.

[9mm]

Just so it's said; MMO version of "Tank" doesn't really exist. AFAIK, one cannot Taunt.

however a spiritualist or id rager with a Jealousy phantom can impose negatives if they aren't the targert.

[Barstro]

Considering that Warder's been mentioned in the opening post, a class that explicitly has aggro-like mechanics, there is a functional tank, or two, if Zealot's party damage mitigation and long-distance Bodyguard is a thing.
For short note, two of the main (and gotten at levels 1/2) features of the Warder are: Grant a morale bonus to AC/Will saves to nearby allies other than the Warder and inflict a -4(scaling later) penalty to attack rolls on an enemy's attack to targets other than the warder; then yes there are MMO tank classes, given that Path of War seems to be allowed.

Maybe I consider Aggro (likewise, Taunt) to have a different definition from others. To me, Aggro is where an enemy MUST hit that particular PC and will not consider attacking someone else. The above powers merely encourage it (strongly to be sure, but still slightly less than "must").

But, if you define those as "aggro" (and I cannot fault you for doing so) then yes, those are tanky classes.

[Tuvarkz]

The thing is, you can make it extremely disencouraging for the enemy to attack your allies with extreme ease. At 7th level, Armiger's Mark+Circle of Razor Feathers+Black Seraph's Glare will place a total of -8 to attack rolls to targets that aren't the warder. Iron Tortoise also has quite a few maneuvers that either force the enemy to make a Will save or be forced to attack the initiator on their next action, or counters that allow the warder to deflect an attack aimed at an ally.

[Azoth]

Human Warder 20. Go Trip focused with Powerful Mark, and the Silver Crane Style feats. For disciplines focus on Eternal Guardian and Silver Crane. Take the martial tradition for Piercing Thunder (Reverent of the Lance), but don't really use Piercing Thunder.

This gives you a solid zone to control enemies in, and those immune to trip are locked down by Eternal Guardian manuevers. Silver Crane means no one is going down easily. By using your Armigers Mark and Silver Crane style you create a large swing between enemy to hit and your allies AC. You also boost your party's saves making yourself the only viable target for enemy attacks.

Something like:
Human Warder 20

FCB: +1/2 daily use of Armigers mark.

Traits:
Bred for War +1CMB
Bruising Intellect Int to intimidate instead of charisma

Feats:
Human) Combat Expertise
1st) Improved Trip
3rd) Silver Crane Style
Warder3) Fury's Fall
Reverent of the Lance 3rd lvl bonus) Haft Strike
5th) Powerful Mark
7th) Greater Trip
Warder8) Silver Crane Feathers
9th) Power Attack
11th) Silver Crane Wing

By level 20 this build creates a 23 point swing between enemy to hit and ally AC. -12 to hit (Armigers Mark) +5 Shield to AC (Aegis) +6 AC (Silver Crane Style). Not even a True Strike can counter this detriment. You also give +5 to Will saves and +6 to Reflex Saves. You can also pull a killing blow's damage to yourself or stop an ally from being crippled by ability damage to a mental stat.

[AoiEMT]

In addition to warder I would take a look at the Fiendbound Marauder archetype. You get an amazing summonable weapon or two that take on damage bypassing properties of gauntlets you wear, and access to eternal guardian which has some serious area lock down.

Your new weapon quickly gains reach but can still be used on adjacent foes and has natural weapon special abilities.

Many eternal gaurdian stances and maneuvers increase your threatened area and if you go dex warder you get in AND dex to the number of attacks of opportunity you get.

Edit 2: I was totally wrong, it's just int or dex not both to AoO's and others have pointed out that Zwei is a much better option


Edit: My phone hates spelling Warder

[Azoth]

In addition to warder I would take a look at the Fiendbound Marauder archetype. You get an amazing summonable weapon or two that take on damage bypassing properties of gauntlets you wear, and access to eternal guardian which has some serious area lock down.

Your new weapon quickly gains reach but can still be used on adjacent foes and has natural weapon special abilities.

Many eternal gaurdian stances and maneuvers increase your threatened area and if you go dex warder you get in AND dex to the number of attacks of opportunity you get.


Edit: My phone hates spelling Warder

I don't think Fiendbound Marauder makes a good tank, neither does Zweihander Sentinel. Both screw with the Aegis ability. The former removes it and the latter keeps it at 10ft. Fiendbound Marauder also removes Extended Defense so it is much harder to defend yourself when you draw enemy ire, or your allies when swarmed. Both are good archetypes, but more designed for offensive striker types.

Ordained Defender could work in some niches. Dervish Defender would be nice if the old Reach Weapon + Armor Spikes worked as TWF to keep your Int to AC.

[Tuvarkz]

You don't really want Human Warder, the better FCBs come from either the Dwarf/Android (+1/4 to Aegis bonus to AC), or Half Giant (+1/5 daily Extended Defense uses).
While yes, in this scenario Zwei Sent is unadvised as you will rarely have someone actively benefitting from your Aegis, you probably still want to pull some heavy melee damage and thus you might want to pick it up. Black Seraph+Eternal Guardian is the better combination, however, given the strong synergy between features in both classes (Particularly because of Black Seraph Annihilation so that you don't have to risk wasting a Fear the Reaper or Crushing Rebuke against an immune to fear enemy)

[Azoth]

I went with human to try and cram everything in as early as possible. Also you are limited on Armiger's Mark uses before level 9 where you can just AoE it.

We seem to building towards the opposite sides of the same coin. I am doing the goodly zone control, and you seem to be gearing up a fear based debuffer.

I do agree that there are better FCB for the build. I also like the Black Seraph +Eternal Guardian mix. If going that route maybe throw in Enforcer with Soulless Gaze and Mask of Virtue? Escalate fear conditions with additional attacks and detect as one step away from your actual alignment.

[the_archduke]

Contrary to popular opinion, tanking is somewhat possible. Size increases clog up the battlefield and make it hard for the foes to get around you. Size increases also give you reach.

Combine that with a good damage output, and the foes can't ignore you.

Psychic warrior does this very well. Meditant archetype, feral path. Take ascetic as your secondary path later. Use long duration buffs like inertial armor, claws of the beast, and augmented expansion. Stacking size increases on your claws makes for very reputable DPS, and your defenses will be very high.

The inspiration for the build was the 3.5e King of Smack.

[the_archduke]

Oh, and half-giant works very well for that build. Str=Wis/Con/Dex/Int/Cha. Your perception skill will be ridiculous too as an added bonus.

[Florian]

Problem simply is that "tanking" is mostly a reactive issue and you have to take great care with positioning.

You can do reasonably good tanking builds, but overall those are better served as leadership companion than as real and active player characters. (See Ranger (Witchguard)/Ulfen Guard)

[Elricaltovilla]

I don't want to get too into the debate, but if zone control is what you're after then Zweihander Sentinel is definitely better than base Warder. With the increased threat range provided by Zweihander Sentinel you have a large native area of "nope" that only expands when you use your Defensive Focus. With the right feat support and judicious use of Enlarge Person, you can trip, stand still, bull rush or just outright slaughter anything that walks through a 20+ ft. radius centered on you. There really is no contest at this time.

[Raihen]

Thanks everyone for many answers !
Well my main goal is not MMO style tanking, but rather simply trying to let enemies get to rest of my party by control and/or damage(so I pose bigger threat to monsters) and the survive hatred. It won't be easy. While I love Martial/Spellcaster hybrids I also don't have problems with PoW classes, since for me Maneuvers/Stances feel like spells, so I also do like playing those. Warder seemed to me as best one, that's why I listed him(and started thinking about Captain Americ-like build using shield only xD). While Zealot seems to be really cool unfortunately PoW Expanded is not available to us, only normal PoW from PF SRD, so no Eternal Guardian either.

Anyway Warder probably will be my choice, but what do you think about Pathwalker with Iron Tortoise ? Getting both psionics and maneuvers solves(somehow) problem with running out of resources(not to mention getting both psionics and martial powers is cool). Do you think Pathwalker would be better tank than normal Psychic Warrior(probably worse than Warder) ?


Human Warder 20. Go Trip focused with Powerful Mark, and the Silver Crane Style feats. For disciplines focus on Eternal Guardian and Silver Crane. Take the martial tradition for Piercing Thunder (Reverent of the Lance), but don't really use Piercing Thunder.

This gives you a solid zone to control enemies in, and those immune to trip are locked down by Eternal Guardian manuevers. Silver Crane means no one is going down easily. By using your Armigers Mark and Silver Crane style you create a large swing between enemy to hit and your allies AC. You also boost your party's saves making yourself the only viable target for enemy attacks.

Something like:
Human Warder 20

FCB: +1/2 daily use of Armigers mark.

Traits:
Bred for War +1CMB
Bruising Intellect Int to intimidate instead of charisma

Feats:
Human) Combat Expertise
1st) Improved Trip
3rd) Silver Crane Style
Warder3) Fury's Fall
Reverent of the Lance 3rd lvl bonus) Haft Strike
5th) Powerful Mark
7th) Greater Trip
Warder8) Silver Crane Feathers
9th) Power Attack
11th) Silver Crane Wing

By level 20 this build creates a 23 point swing between enemy to hit and ally AC. -12 to hit (Armigers Mark) +5 Shield to AC (Aegis) +6 AC (Silver Crane Style). Not even a True Strike can counter this detriment. You also give +5 to Will saves and +6 to Reflex Saves. You can also pull a killing blow's damage to yourself or stop an ally from being crippled by ability damage to a mental stat.
Looks cool, but lack of Eternal Guardian probably makes it less good ? When I first started reading about Warder I really liked Iron Tortoise - many good counters, with Broken Blade to pose threat to enemies, fighting with shield captain america style, but not sure how viable it is, since Reach is the king. Is there a way to get reach weapon together with shield for Iron Tortoise? Is it even worth using a shield ?


I don't want to get too into the debate, but if zone control is what you're after then Zweihander Sentinel is definitely better than base Warder. With the increased threat range provided by Zweihander Sentinel you have a large native area of "nope" that only expands when you use your Defensive Focus. With the right feat support and judicious use of Enlarge Person, you can trip, stand still, bull rush or just outright slaughter anything that walks through a 20+ ft. radius centered on you. There really is no contest at this time.

Which disciplines would be best to focus on in such build, since without shield I can't use Iron Tortoise ?

Control is important for me, but also I don't want to neglect damage too much, since I will be only meele damage dealer in party, but I assume fighting with Two handed weapon will help with this ?


It would be helpful to know what the rest of your party will be doing, not just what they are. I will assume;
Ranger; Staying away and raining arrows.
Witch; Staying away and using Evil Eye, Misfortune, Slumber
Druid; ??? Using Animal Companion to melee and otherwise battlefield control?
Sorcerer; ??? No idea.
Druid will be mainly buffing/battlefield control with some healing just in case and Sorcerer will probably be jack of all trades with some battlefield controls/blasts/buffs etc, won't focus entirely on anything.



Contrary to popular opinion, tanking is somewhat possible. Size increases clog up the battlefield and make it hard for the foes to get around you. Size increases also give you reach.

Combine that with a good damage output, and the foes can't ignore you.

Psychic warrior does this very well. Meditant archetype, feral path. Take ascetic as your secondary path later. Use long duration buffs like inertial armor, claws of the beast, and augmented expansion. Stacking size increases on your claws makes for very reputable DPS, and your defenses will be very high.

The inspiration for the build was the 3.5e King of Smack.
This looks cool also, but don't really want to take natural weapons route for this character, since my last 3.5 focused on it.


I'm going to suggest Fighter...Okay hear me out.
I know it lacks the spells you stated you liked. And the only thing it really has going for it is Feats. But think of it this way your the only melee. Guess who the party is going to buff to the nine's just to make sure that no one gets close to them. The only resource you have to worry about is HP. So long as that is in the positive you can keep on swinging away.
If your not worried about damage dealing I would go with the Shield Fighter Archetype. Focus on Bull-rushing and defending your squishy casters. If you can protect them in the early game they will protect you in the late.
Meh, I really don't like vanilla Fighter - it just doesn't work for me :P Usually when I played martial character in 3.5 it was either gish or some ToB build. Won't say it's all bad, simply I don't feel like playing as such.

Cheers !

[Azoth]

My first Warder was Captain America style. Broken Blade, Silver Crane, and Iron Tortoise were the main disciplines. He went Bullrush focused to reposition enemies around the battlefield as necessary. Not as strong, but still fun and doable.

Without access to Path of War: Expanded controlling enemies isn't as easy, but still very doable. You start looking at discipline's a bit more closely. Manuevers like Silver Crane Resurgence and Warning Roar become infinitely more usable to save your party members with Extended Defense, because they don't rely on the ally being adjacent to you and can completely negate the enemies' actions for a round.

[Seppo87]

Warpriest ?

[AoiEMT]

Which disciplines would be best to focus on in such build, since without shield I can't use Iron Tortoise ?

Control is important for me, but also I don't want to neglect damage too much...

The Zweihander gets an ability to shield bash with a weapon wielded two handed and treat it as a shield for maneuvers, best of both worlds!

Iron Tortoise and Scarlet Throne would be the main focus points of that build.

[CGNefarious]

The Zweihander gets an ability to shield bash with a weapon wielded two handed and treat it as a shield for maneuvers, best of both worlds!

Iron Tortoise and Scarlet Throne would be the main focus points of that build.

This is literally the exact thing I was going to suggest. It gives you both great defensive and offensive maneuvers, so you'll always be a threat while still protecting your party better than nearly any other class could. If you wanted you could also dabble in Silver Crane to add in some healing during combat, depending on how much healing your Druid will actually do. Just one or two healing maneuvers from Silver Crane can make a huge difference in a battle, so you don't even need to focus on it.

I would also recommend looking into Martial Power. It a great feat for a tank with full BAB. And the Zweihander's armament shield counts, giving you the 3 to 1 exchange on temp HP.

[Balmas]

Is Tome of Battle on the table? If so, I would argue that a trip-focused Crusader can be pretty terrifying. You're actively encouraged to take damage, as it helps deal more damage. You have martial maneuvers that help to heal yourself or the party as needed. Tripping makes sure that most of your foes want to deal with you first, or can't ignore you if they don't.

[upho]

Thanks everyone for many answers !
Well my main goal is not MMO style tanking, but rather simply trying to let enemies get to rest of my party by control and/or damage(so I pose bigger threat to monsters) and the survive hatred. It won't be easy. While I love Martial/Spellcaster hybrids I also don't have problems with PoW classes, since for me Maneuvers/Stances feel like spells, so I also do like playing those. Warder seemed to me as best one, that's why I listed him(and started thinking about Captain Americ-like build using shield only xD). While Zealot seems to be really cool unfortunately PoW Expanded is not available to us, only normal PoW from PF SRD, so no Eternal Guardian either.

Anyway Warder probably will be my choice, but what do you think about Pathwalker with Iron Tortoise ? Getting both psionics and maneuvers solves(somehow) problem with running out of resources(not to mention getting both psionics and martial powers is cool). Do you think Pathwalker would be better tank than normal Psychic Warrior(probably worse than Warder) ?

Looks cool, but lack of Eternal Guardian probably makes it less good ? When I first started reading about Warder I really liked Iron Tortoise - many good counters, with Broken Blade to pose threat to enemies, fighting with shield captain america style, but not sure how viable it is, since Reach is the king. Is there a way to get reach weapon together with shield for Iron Tortoise? Is it even worth using a shield ?You can build an extremely effective "Captain Andoran" switch-hitter controller/defender by combining warder and 7 levels of the Shield Champion brawler archetype. The downsides are that the most hilarious shenanigans such a build can pull off relies on specific magic items and requires several levels which will delay maneuver progression, although with some smart planning of levels, it certainly won't be bad at any time either (and works fine with the PoW and Paizo stuff currently available for free online). And considering you have three full casters in your party, I guess you won't have much problem getting the specific items either, and get a hefty discount as well. It can also be tweaked to deal quite an impressive amount of damage, and since it's full attacks will be better than strikes in most situations, it can focus on counters for increased defensive capacity in between turns. The shield combo goes like this (copied from this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?454387-Wolf-Trip-Shield-Champion-Intimidation-Martial-Control-of-Gravitas)):

This tank-/defender-centric combo demands a lot of resources, is highly dependent on access to specific items, and is also useless against the many enemies immune to trip. But at least as far as I can tell from my play testing, once it starts to get going I think it's just hilariously effective in many combat scenarios, beyond comparison to that of any other martial control combo limited to Paizo sources I've ever seen in play.

It's key component is Wolf Trip (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/wolf-trip-wolf-style). Or more specifically, the following line in the feat's benefit description:
While using Wolf Style, whenever you successfully trip a creature, as a free action you may choose an available square adjacent to you for the tripped creature to land prone in.By itself and at first glance, this isn't anything spectacular. When added to a rather classic melee trip combo with Combat Reflexes, Greater Trip, Vicious Stomp and a boosted melee reach, it allows for the Vicious Stomp AoO to be triggered if the target was tripped in a non-adjacent space using a reach weapon, and it can also make it harder for a tripped monster to get away and chew on squishy allies. Useful if the goal is to ramp up damage through AoOs, and it can be very good for locking down a target when combined with other melee control and debuff abilities. But it's not exactly enabling anything revolutionary, and it's typically not as vital as many other feats are for dedicated trip or control builds.

However, as Wolf Trip has no range limit whatsoever, imagine if we could trip an enemy from, say, up to more than 300 feet away? And imagine if we could do that with every attack in a full attack, on top of dealing normal damage?

Well I say: Yes we can!

And here are the best options I've found to make it happen:

A. The 7th level benefit of the Throw Shield feature of the Shield Champion brawler archetype:
At 7th level, a shield champion can use a thrown shield to perform a bull rush, dirty trick, disarm, reposition, or trip combat maneuver as if she were making a melee shield bash attack.


B. The Maelstrom Shield specific magic shield (14,170 gp) benefit:
When used to make a shield bash attack, the shield's wielder can make a trip attack as a free action against the same target without provoking an attack of opportunity from the creature being tripped.


C. The distance magic weapon ability, and preferably some basic ranged feats and the Shield Master feat.

D. A blinkback belt and Quick Draw feat. Though neither are strictly needed for dealing with a single target, being able to cover enormous areas means having several ranged attacks per round allows for impressive mass-control capacity, one of the unique major potential strengths of the combo.

When combined with the previously mentioned standard trip combo, the end result is a highly versatile shield bash attack packed with control mechanics that can be repeated several times per round, requiring no or very few additional actions. The following details the events triggered by a single such "Black Hole" shield bash, though whether all or just a few are included and the exact order in which they're triggered may depend on other related components and, as far as I can tell, can be modified for each attack:

1. Shield bash attack, melee or thrown with a 60 ft range, made as a part of any action including one or more attacks, rolled as normal and dealing damage as normal.

2. Free trip attempt regardless of whether the initial attack hits or misses. A few important details:

RAW, nothing specifies whether the trip attempt must be resolved before or after any bull rush attempt, or even before or after determining whether the initial attack hits. I assume this means the first roll made in the entire attack can actually be the trip check.
As far as I can tell, a free action attack (such as this trip attempt) that is not replacing a normal attack is rolled at full BAB unless otherwise noted, even if the event the free attack accompanies happens to be an iterative attack using a lower BAB.
In accordance with the FAQ regarding free action combat maneuver checks triggered by attacks, the trip attempt granted by the Maelstrom Shield can be made even if the triggering shield bash is made outside the attacker's turn, such as when making an AoO.

3. Free bull rush attempt if the initial attack hits, using the die roll of the initial shield bash attack for the bull rush check.

4. Target moved as free action and falls prone in a free adjacent space of the attacker's choice if the trip attempt succeeds.

5. The shield returns to the blinkback belt and can be immediately drawn again as a free action. This may happen more than once, for example after making a free action ranged combat maneuver check such as the trip attempt described above. (Though it probably has no impact on the mechanics in this case, the belt's description can be interpreted to say an associated weapon always returns after each separate attack has been resolved, which in this case could result in the shield being thrown and teleporting back more than 15 times during the course of an entire full attack.)

6. The first combat maneuver triggers AoOs as appropriate on success - from allies only on a bull rush maneuver with Greater Bull Rush, or from the attacker as well as allies on a trip maneuver with Greater Trip.

7. The second combat maneuver triggers AoOs as described above.

8. Vicious Stomp AoO triggered.

Note that no AoOs has to be made for the basic control mechanic to work since both the trip attempt and the moving of a tripped target to adjacent are free actions. And as mentioned, it seems the attacker can change the order of the above significantly, for example by throwing the shield and:

make the free trip attempt granted by the maelstrom shield
resolve the ranged shield bash attack
move the target to adjacent using Wolf Trip
resolve any AoOs granted by Greater Trip
make the Vicious Stomp AoO triggered by the target falling prone
make the free bull rush attempt granted by Shield Slam
resolve any AoOs triggered by Greater Bull Rush

During a single full attack, a build affected by haste or similar with two maelstrom shields along with the full Two-Weapon Fighting feat chain, Combat Reflexes and a Dex of 40 could make all of the above combo up to eight times against as many enemies, each target risking being hit by a total of three damage-dealing attacks on top of being bull rushed, tripped, moved into a poor position and hit by several additional AoOs from the attacker's allies. But even without a high Dex score or using a single AoO, the combo still allows a defender to attack several distant enemies and gathering them up flat on their bellies well within melee threat range.

I guess it's obvious why I call it the "Black Hole Control Combo". :smalltongue:


This combo is perfect to combine with warder levels, allowing for Int-based AoOs, which in turn means you can basically dump Dex (and combine a Belt of Mighty Hurling with a Blinkback Belt and +stats) and still fully capitalize on the many potential AoO triggers generated by a full attack, on top of there being virtually no trade-offs to increasing your size, and thus both your important "zone of nope" and your damage output. But perhaps even more importantly, the warder defender style in general, not to mention the Broken Blade and Iron Tortoise disciplines, absolutely loves the "black hole" effect and the shield focus, enabling you to much more easily handle those otherwise often difficult ranged attackers while also making you super-sticky (add a Phase Locking weapon in later levels and laugh at the enemy lying on its ass in the "wrong" place next to you, robbed of both its movement speed as well as any teleportation magic).

Although this combo was originally made with the goal of making a martial build such an effective controller it can basically ignore it's damage output and still be at least as viable as the typical damage focused builds, the many potential AoOs and easily boosted setup (such as wielding cheap shields with the superior bashing ability, possibility to focus more on Str than a regular warder and remain just as effective as a defender) means you can certainly also turn it into a quite amazing damage generator, especially if dual-wielding shields.


Race
This needs quite a lot of feats, so going human will of course help. But I would recommend half-giant, since Powerful Build will improve basically every aspect of what you'll be doing in combat, often drastically, and you won't mind trading -2 Dex for +2 Wis.

Ability Scores 20-point buy
Str 36 - 16 base, +2 race (put all but 1 level bonus here)
Dex 8 - 10 base, -2 race
Con 20 - 15 base (put 1 level bonus here)
Int 22 - 14 base
Wis 20 - 12 base, +2 race
Cha 7 - 7 base
It's perfectly possible to switch Con and Int for slightly more Marks etc and less survivability, but I personally think a starting score of 14 is enough to do the job, especially since you'll take half of your levels in classes which don't really gain anything from a high Int.

Class and Feat Progression
1 warder 1 Power Attack, Bonus Feat Combat Reflexes
2 shieldchamp 1 Bonus Feats Far Shot, Improved Unarmed Strike, Martial Flex Feat Improved Bull Rush
3 lorewarden 1 Improved Trip, Bonus Combat Feat Improved Shield Bash
4 lorewarden 2 Bonus Feat Combat Expertise, Bonus Combat Feat Shield Slam
5 shieldchamp 2 Point-Blank Shot, Bonus Feat Two-Weapon Fighting, Bonus Combat Feat Quick Draw
6 shieldchamp 3 -
7 shieldchamp 4 Greater Trip
8 shieldchamp 5 Bonus Combat Feat Precise Shot
9 shieldchamp 6 Wolf Style, Martial Flex Feat Greater Bull Rush
10 shieldchamp 7 -
11 shieldchamp 8 Shield Master, Bonus Feat Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Bonus Combat Feat Wolf Trip
12 warder 2 -
13 warder 3 Vicious Stomp, Bonus Combat Feat Defensive Expertise?
14 warder 4 -
15 warder 5 Powerful Mark?
16 warder 6 -
17 warder 7 Tactical Rush?
18 warder 8 Bonus Combat Feat Merciless Rush?
19 warder 9 ?
20 warder 10 -

Note that the preferable progression may change quite considerably depending on starting level, which items you can get your hands on, and if you see more value in not having to keep level 1 maneuvers way past their prime than the value you see in having warder functionality from start. In that case, delay taking your first level of warder until after you have at least shield champion 2 and lore warden 2, allowing you to start your warder career with IL 3 and no maneuvers having to be lower than level 2 (or even level 3 if delaying all the way to 10th or 11th level, which I wouldn't recommend). It may also be a good idea to get 2 warder levels first for Armiger's Mark before you embark on the many-leveled trip to the Black Hole, and in that case the Extra Mark feat may be a good early choice (retrain it once you've accumulated enough Int and warder levels).

Disciplines
As you seem to know already, you'll find most goodies in Iron Tortoise and Broken Blade, but I think there's also a few gems in especially Primal Fury (such as Primal Warrior Stance).

Traits
Boring, but the typical Fate's Favored and Reactionary will probably be your best bet without access to Practiced Initiator from PoW:E.

Gear
Two throwing Maelstrom shields and a "Belt of Mighty Physical Blinkback Hurling Strength/Might/Perfection +X" ASAP (the Mighty Hurling naturally being most important) of course, preferably accompanied with a cheap Cracked Opalescent White Pyramid for Weapon Familiarity (Throwing Shield) to double the base range of your shields. Complement later on with stuff like Phase Locking, Impact (for better bull rushes), Dueling (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/MagicWeaponsDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Dueling%20(PSFG) ) (PFSG version, for a "never-fail" trip) and Distance. Aside from the standard stuff, you might also like a pair of Pauldrons of the Bull to go with your Cloak of Resistance, letting you take the higher of two die rolls for each bull rush CMB check. And since DSP psionic stuff seems to be on the table, you should of course try to get your hands on a Skin of Proteus (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/equipment/psionic-items/universal-items#TOC-Psychoactive-Skins) in higher levels, as the constant augment 2 metamorphosis may simultaneously grant you for example two size category increases (for huge size and at least gargantuan shields with "colossal +1" brawler UAS damage dice) and free Improved Trip for a "free" feat slot with retraining, plus a less interesting +10 ft. enhancement bonus to your base land speed.




Which disciplines would be best to focus on in such build, since without shield I can't use Iron Tortoise ?The Zwei Sent can use his two-handed weapon to make shield bashes and Iron Tortoise maneuvers. And I agree with Elric that it's generally the strongest defender archetype for a warder. Because size does matter. At least the size of your "nope"... :smallbiggrin:


Control is important for me, but also I don't want to neglect damage too much, since I will be only meele damage dealer in party, but I assume fighting with Two handed weapon will help with this ?Yep. Great feat support and Primal Fury (and Black Seraph) takes care of that. Although I guess with the current RAW (errata is incoming), Broken Blade, which you won't be able to use, on the right build can probably out-damage every other discipline (take a look at the silly Broken Blade Stance if you haven't already).



Meh, I really don't like vanilla Fighter - it just doesn't work for me :P Usually when I played martial character in 3.5 it was either gish or some ToB build. Won't say it's all bad, simply I don't feel like playing as such. For what it's worth, I totally agree. I don't think people talking about the fighter have seen an initiator in action, much less built and played one. Because the difference between for example a fighter and a warder is huge (yes, even when including the new weapon training options), especially when it comes to defending, which no Paizo class have actually been designed for. And the supposedly related options from Paizo (like Step-Up, Bodyguard, Stand Still, Golden Legionnaire etc) generally vary from weak to horrible traps in comparison and won't enable any real "tanking" or defending worth mentioning IMO. But at least the fighter sucks a lot less nowadays, and I still often use it for 1, 2 or 4 level dips when I want to decrease the number of levels I have to fill with combat feat taxes.

And then there's of course the myrmidon fighter archetype from PoW:E, which is a totally different beast...

[Raihen]

My first Warder was Captain America style. Broken Blade, Silver Crane, and Iron Tortoise were the main disciplines. He went Bullrush focused to reposition enemies around the battlefield as necessary. Not as strong, but still fun and doable.

Without access to Path of War: Expanded controlling enemies isn't as easy, but still very doable. You start looking at discipline's a bit more closely. Manuevers like Silver Crane Resurgence and Warning Roar become infinitely more usable to save your party members with Extended Defense, because they don't rely on the ally being adjacent to you and can completely negate the enemies' actions for a round.
That sounds good. Were you fighting with two shields or one shield without weapon ? Sucks that you need Two Weapon Fighting for Shield Slam, since otherwise you can't make Bull rush as AoO right ? Without Trip also enemies might run past me even when I attack them. Should I also consider Stand Still for such build ?


Is Tome of Battle on the table? If so, I would argue that a trip-focused Crusader can be pretty terrifying. You're actively encouraged to take damage, as it helps deal more damage. You have martial maneuvers that help to heal yourself or the party as needed. Tripping makes sure that most of your foes want to deal with you first, or can't ignore you if they don't.
No 3.5 materials. Even if we could I played my fair share of crusader and want to try something new :)


The Zweihander gets an ability to shield bash with a weapon wielded two handed and treat it as a shield for maneuvers, best of both worlds!

Iron Tortoise and Scarlet Throne would be the main focus points of that build.
Oh yea I missed that one !


This is literally the exact thing I was going to suggest. It gives you both great defensive and offensive maneuvers, so you'll always be a threat while still protecting your party better than nearly any other class could. If you wanted you could also dabble in Silver Crane to add in some healing during combat, depending on how much healing your Druid will actually do. Just one or two healing maneuvers from Silver Crane can make a huge difference in a battle, so you don't even need to focus on it.

I would also recommend looking into Martial Power. It a great feat for a tank with full BAB. And the Zweihander's armament shield counts, giving you the 3 to 1 exchange on temp HP.
Yea I will probably look into Martial Power


You can build an extremely effective "Captain Andoran" switch-hitter controller/defender by combining warder and 7 levels of the Shield Champion brawler archetype. The downsides are that the most hilarious shenanigans such a build can pull off relies on specific magic items and requires several levels which will delay maneuver progression, although with some smart planning of levels, it certainly won't be bad at any time either (and works fine with the PoW and Paizo stuff currently available for free online). And considering you have three full casters in your party, I guess you won't have much problem getting the specific items either, and get a hefty discount as well. It can also be tweaked to deal quite an impressive amount of damage, and since it's full attacks will be better than strikes in most situations, it can focus on counters for increased defensive capacity in between turns. The shield combo goes like this (copied from this thread):

This tank-/defender-centric combo demands a lot of resources, is highly dependent on access to specific items, and is also useless against the many enemies immune to trip. But at least as far as I can tell from my play testing, once it starts to get going I think it's just hilariously effective in many combat scenarios, beyond comparison to that of any other martial control combo limited to Paizo sources I've ever seen in play.

It's key component is Wolf Trip. Or more specifically, the following line in the feat's benefit description:By itself and at first glance, this isn't anything spectacular. When added to a rather classic melee trip combo with Combat Reflexes, Greater Trip, Vicious Stomp and a boosted melee reach, it allows for the Vicious Stomp AoO to be triggered if the target was tripped in a non-adjacent space using a reach weapon, and it can also make it harder for a tripped monster to get away and chew on squishy allies. Useful if the goal is to ramp up damage through AoOs, and it can be very good for locking down a target when combined with other melee control and debuff abilities. But it's not exactly enabling anything revolutionary, and it's typically not as vital as many other feats are for dedicated trip or control builds.

However, as Wolf Trip has no range limit whatsoever, imagine if we could trip an enemy from, say, up to more than 300 feet away? And imagine if we could do that with every attack in a full attack, on top of dealing normal damage?

Well I say: Yes we can!

And here are the best options I've found to make it happen:

A. The 7th level benefit of the Throw Shield feature of the Shield Champion brawler archetype:


B. The Maelstrom Shield specific magic shield (14,170 gp) benefit:


C. The distance magic weapon ability, and preferably some basic ranged feats and the Shield Master feat.

D. A blinkback belt and Quick Draw feat. Though neither are strictly needed for dealing with a single target, being able to cover enormous areas means having several ranged attacks per round allows for impressive mass-control capacity, one of the unique major potential strengths of the combo.

When combined with the previously mentioned standard trip combo, the end result is a highly versatile shield bash attack packed with control mechanics that can be repeated several times per round, requiring no or very few additional actions. The following details the events triggered by a single such "Black Hole" shield bash, though whether all or just a few are included and the exact order in which they're triggered may depend on other related components and, as far as I can tell, can be modified for each attack:

1. Shield bash attack, melee or thrown with a 60 ft range, made as a part of any action including one or more attacks, rolled as normal and dealing damage as normal.

2. Free trip attempt regardless of whether the initial attack hits or misses. A few important details:

RAW, nothing specifies whether the trip attempt must be resolved before or after any bull rush attempt, or even before or after determining whether the initial attack hits. I assume this means the first roll made in the entire attack can actually be the trip check.
As far as I can tell, a free action attack (such as this trip attempt) that is not replacing a normal attack is rolled at full BAB unless otherwise noted, even if the event the free attack accompanies happens to be an iterative attack using a lower BAB.
In accordance with the FAQ regarding free action combat maneuver checks triggered by attacks, the trip attempt granted by the Maelstrom Shield can be made even if the triggering shield bash is made outside the attacker's turn, such as when making an AoO.

3. Free bull rush attempt if the initial attack hits, using the die roll of the initial shield bash attack for the bull rush check.

4. Target moved as free action and falls prone in a free adjacent space of the attacker's choice if the trip attempt succeeds.

5. The shield returns to the blinkback belt and can be immediately drawn again as a free action. This may happen more than once, for example after making a free action ranged combat maneuver check such as the trip attempt described above. (Though it probably has no impact on the mechanics in this case, the belt's description can be interpreted to say an associated weapon always returns after each separate attack has been resolved, which in this case could result in the shield being thrown and teleporting back more than 15 times during the course of an entire full attack.)

6. The first combat maneuver triggers AoOs as appropriate on success - from allies only on a bull rush maneuver with Greater Bull Rush, or from the attacker as well as allies on a trip maneuver with Greater Trip.

7. The second combat maneuver triggers AoOs as described above.

8. Vicious Stomp AoO triggered.

Note that no AoOs has to be made for the basic control mechanic to work since both the trip attempt and the moving of a tripped target to adjacent are free actions. And as mentioned, it seems the attacker can change the order of the above significantly, for example by throwing the shield and:

make the free trip attempt granted by the maelstrom shield
resolve the ranged shield bash attack
move the target to adjacent using Wolf Trip
resolve any AoOs granted by Greater Trip
make the Vicious Stomp AoO triggered by the target falling prone
make the free bull rush attempt granted by Shield Slam
resolve any AoOs triggered by Greater Bull Rush

During a single full attack, a build affected by haste or similar with two maelstrom shields along with the full Two-Weapon Fighting feat chain, Combat Reflexes and a Dex of 40 could make all of the above combo up to eight times against as many enemies, each target risking being hit by a total of three damage-dealing attacks on top of being bull rushed, tripped, moved into a poor position and hit by several additional AoOs from the attacker's allies. But even without a high Dex score or using a single AoO, the combo still allows a defender to attack several distant enemies and gathering them up flat on their bellies well within melee threat range.

I guess it's obvious why I call it the "Black Hole Control Combo". :smalltongue:


This combo is perfect to combine with warder levels, allowing for Int-based AoOs, which in turn means you can basically dump Dex (and combine a Belt of Mighty Hurling with a Blinkback Belt and +stats) and still fully capitalize on the many potential AoO triggers generated by a full attack, on top of there being virtually no trade-offs to increasing your size, and thus both your important "zone of nope" and your damage output. But perhaps even more importantly, the warder defender style in general, not to mention the Broken Blade and Iron Tortoise disciplines, absolutely loves the "black hole" effect and the shield focus, enabling you to much more easily handle those otherwise often difficult ranged attackers while also making you super-sticky (add a Phase Locking weapon in later levels and laugh at the enemy lying on its ass in the "wrong" place next to you, robbed of both its movement speed as well as any teleportation magic).

Although this combo was originally made with the goal of making a martial build such an effective controller it can basically ignore it's damage output and still be at least as viable as the typical damage focused builds, the many potential AoOs and easily boosted setup (such as wielding cheap shields with the superior bashing ability, possibility to focus more on Str than a regular warder and remain just as effective as a defender) means you can certainly also turn it into a quite amazing damage generator, especially if dual-wielding shields.


Race
This needs quite a lot of feats, so going human will of course help. But I would recommend half-giant, since Powerful Build will improve basically every aspect of what you'll be doing in combat, often drastically, and you won't mind trading -2 Dex for +2 Wis.

Ability Scores 20-point buy
Str 36 - 16 base, +2 race (put all but 1 level bonus here)
Dex 8 - 10 base, -2 race
Con 20 - 15 base (put 1 level bonus here)
Int 22 - 14 base
Wis 20 - 12 base, +2 race
Cha 7 - 7 base
It's perfectly possible to switch Con and Int for slightly more Marks etc and less survivability, but I personally think a starting score of 14 is enough to do the job, especially since you'll take half of your levels in classes which don't really gain anything from a high Int.

Class and Feat Progression
1 warder 1 Power Attack, Bonus Feat Combat Reflexes
2 shieldchamp 1 Bonus Feats Far Shot, Improved Unarmed Strike, Martial Flex Feat Improved Bull Rush
3 lorewarden 1 Improved Trip, Bonus Combat Feat Improved Shield Bash
4 lorewarden 2 Bonus Feat Combat Expertise, Bonus Combat Feat Shield Slam
5 shieldchamp 2 Point-Blank Shot, Bonus Feat Two-Weapon Fighting, Bonus Combat Feat Quick Draw
6 shieldchamp 3 -
7 shieldchamp 4 Greater Trip
8 shieldchamp 5 Bonus Combat Feat Precise Shot
9 shieldchamp 6 Wolf Style, Martial Flex Feat Greater Bull Rush
10 shieldchamp 7 -
11 shieldchamp 8 Shield Master, Bonus Feat Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Bonus Combat Feat Wolf Trip
12 warder 2 -
13 warder 3 Vicious Stomp, Bonus Combat Feat Defensive Expertise?
14 warder 4 -
15 warder 5 Powerful Mark?
16 warder 6 -
17 warder 7 Tactical Rush?
18 warder 8 Bonus Combat Feat Merciless Rush?
19 warder 9 ?
20 warder 10 -

Note that the preferable progression may change quite considerably depending on starting level, which items you can get your hands on, and if you see more value in not having to keep level 1 maneuvers way past their prime than the value you see in having warder functionality from start. In that case, delay taking your first level of warder until after you have at least shield champion 2 and lore warden 2, allowing you to start your warder career with IL 3 and no maneuvers having to be lower than level 2 (or even level 3 if delaying all the way to 10th or 11th level, which I wouldn't recommend). It may also be a good idea to get 2 warder levels first for Armiger's Mark before you embark on the many-leveled trip to the Black Hole, and in that case the Extra Mark feat may be a good early choice (retrain it once you've accumulated enough Int and warder levels).

Disciplines
As you seem to know already, you'll find most goodies in Iron Tortoise and Broken Blade, but I think there's also a few gems in especially Primal Fury (such as Primal Warrior Stance).

Traits
Boring, but the typical Fate's Favored and Reactionary will probably be your best bet without access to Practiced Initiator from PoW:E.

Gear
Two throwing Maelstrom shields and a "Belt of Mighty Physical Blinkback Hurling Strength/Might/Perfection +X" ASAP (the Mighty Hurling naturally being most important) of course, preferably accompanied with a cheap Cracked Opalescent White Pyramid for Weapon Familiarity (Throwing Shield) to double the base range of your shields. Complement later on with stuff like Phase Locking, Impact (for better bull rushes), Dueling (PFSG version, for a "never-fail" trip) and Distance. Aside from the standard stuff, you might also like a pair of Pauldrons of the Bull to go with your Cloak of Resistance, letting you take the higher of two die rolls for each bull rush CMB check. And since DSP psionic stuff seems to be on the table, you should of course try to get your hands on a Skin of Proteus in higher levels, as the constant augment 2 metamorphosis may simultaneously grant you for example two size category increases (for huge size and at least gargantuan shields with "colossal +1" brawler UAS damage dice) and free Improved Trip for a "free" feat slot with retraining, plus a less interesting +10 ft. enhancement bonus to your base land speed.



Okay okay, this one is a bit too cheesy for me(and especially for my GM !), but thanks anyway because there are a lot of tips that will be very useful for me !



Yep. Great feat support and Primal Fury (and Black Seraph) takes care of that. Although I guess with the current RAW (errata is incoming), Broken Blade, which you won't be able to use, on the right build can probably out-damage every other discipline (take a look at the silly Broken Blade Stance if you haven't already).

Yea I looked at it and Steel Flurry Strike, both very good. What will errata change ?

[Florian]

YFor what it's worth, I totally agree. I don't think people talking about the fighter have seen an initiator in action, much less built and played one. Because the difference between for example a fighter and a warder is huge (yes, even when including the new weapon training options), especially when it comes to defending, which no Paizo class have actually been designed for. And the supposedly related options from Paizo (like Step-Up, Bodyguard, Stand Still, Golden Legionnaire etc) generally vary from weak to horrible traps in comparison and won't enable any real "tanking" or defending worth mentioning IMO. But at least the fighter sucks a lot less nowadays, and I still often use it for 1, 2 or 4 level dips when I want to decrease the number of levels I have to fill with combat feat taxes.

Ok, I disagree here. Part of the usual problem that comes up when talking about "tanking" and asking for "tanking builds" is that no statement about the actual environment is given that gives an actual clue what form this tanking should actually take. In the narrow confines of Rappan Athuk, area denial will be king. In a huge swath of forest where even bow ranges will come into play, it´s next to useless.
We also don´t know how "meta" that game is going to be. Will enemies attack based on judgment by sight or will they attack by trying to take down the most dangerous target first?

With all those things unknown, it can simply be worth it to use a Fighter and try to go for multiple options.
ToW classes are awesome, but they tend to generate over-specialized builds.

[upho]

Ok, I disagree here. Part of the usual problem that comes up when talking about "tanking" and asking for "tanking builds" is that no statement about the actual environment is given that gives an actual clue what form this tanking should actually take. In the narrow confines of Rappan Athuk, area denial will be king. In a huge swath of forest where even bow ranges will come into play, it´s next to useless.
We also don´t know how "meta" that game is going to be. Will enemies attack based on judgment by sight or will they attack by trying to take down the most dangerous target first?Oh, I totally agree that being an effective "tank" or "defender" may (or will) have greatly varying levels of mechanical requirements depending on other parameters (such as terrain, ally abilities used, general party composition, knowledge and mechanics of opposition etc.), and especially depending on how much those parameters will vary within the game, as well as general game specifics (level range, player experience, game style etc).

My point was that virtually regardless of how these factors change (with the possible exception of extreme DM metagame bias or player experience/talent for tactics), a warder will nearly always outperform a fighter at the job of defending the party, and will also nearly always have a larger positive impact on combat outcomes in general while being less taxing on limited party resources. And my impression is that the term "tank" itself (which is originally a D&D concept much older than MMOs AFAIK) says quite a lot about how mechanical support for the job description "defend the party" was basically non-existent in D&D before ToB (and especially 4e). Meaning the closest you got was being a tank in the "armored assault vehicle"-sense, and the term refers to a build/character type typically wrapped in metal who has great durability (in the most direct physical sense) and is usually able to deal a lot of direct damage to single targets (read: fighter).

These "tank" qualities may allow you to do the defender job in the right circumstances (typically in tighter spaces vs less mobile, less tactically smart, and/or primarily melee focused opponents), especially if the "tank" qualities are also accompanied by as many and powerful control tools as possible, but they're sorely lacking in less favorable circumstances as they don't include any mechanical support specifically aimed at performing the defender job. This can be clearly seen by simply comparing the many and powerful damage boosting mechanical options with the few and weak defender-boosting mechanical options available to a PF fighter, and the fact that it's nearly impossible to build a fighter who is able to ignore damage output capacity and still remain as valuable and effective in combat as a fighter who focuses on damage.

The warder, on the other hand, has both stronger "tank" qualities than the fighter (larger hd, significantly better passive and active defense, higher single target damage output potential) as well as highly efficient mechanical tools for doing the defender job.


With all those things unknown, it can simply be worth it to use a Fighter and try to go for multiple options.
ToW classes are awesome, but they tend to generate over-specialized builds.It appears you're actually saying a fighter is more versatile than a warder in combat? :smallconfused:

If you do, I would probably agree with you if the warder wasn't an initiator. But since that's not the case, I'd say the opposite is true. I'd even say that combat versatility is the greatest advantage initiators in general have over other martials - the reason they're generally considered T3 while the fighter is still in T4 (or even T5 without the best weapon training options).

[Raihen]

Also I have one question for Zweihander Sentinel. It says i can shield bash with two handed weapon as light shield, my question is - if i use reach weapon does this shield bash have reach or not ? If not, that means I can attack both 10'(with weapon) and 5'(with shield bash) targets ? Can I also use it for AoO ? So I threathen both 5' and 10'?

[Tuvarkz]

Also I have one question for Zweihander Sentinel. It says i can shield bash with two handed weapon as light shield, my question is - if i use reach weapon does this shield bash have reach or not ? If not, that means I can attack both 10'(with weapon) and 5'(with shield bash) targets ? Can I also use it for AoO ? So I threathen both 5' and 10'?

Your light shield doesn't have reach. Yes, you can attack both 10' and 5'; also yes you can AoO and yes you threaten both.

[Florian]

Also I have one question for Zweihander Sentinel. It says i can shield bash with two handed weapon as light shield, my question is - if i use reach weapon does this shield bash have reach or not ? If not, that means I can attack both 10'(with weapon) and 5'(with shield bash) targets ? Can I also use it for AoO ? So I threathen both 5' and 10'?

The light shield doesn´t gain reach. It stays at 5" and you can threaten in both areas, same as a plain old Fighter can do with Shield Brace.

[Raihen]

Now another question - it says I am using part of weapon to make "shield bash", so do I receive weapon's enhancement bonus when doing so ? Whole weapon is magic so it should still count when attacking with hilt for example, right :P?

[Necromancy]

Now another question - it says I am using part of weapon to make "shield bash", so do I receive weapon's enhancement bonus when doing so ? Whole weapon is magic so it should still count when attacking with hilt for example, right :P?

Only fighter can do what you're suggesting. I had quite a bit of success with it too in a similar party

Straight sword and board human fighter with no archetype (vanilla as $&@7 I know). Feat focused on bull rush, and two weapon/shield fighting. Add feats like stand still, step up and strike, etc.

The concept is to be a tank, not through the old "hit me,not him" ideal but through battlefield control. Move guys around, alter the enemy formations to be more fireball friendly, etc. It may seem simple but you're only limited by creativity.

[Tuvarkz]

Now another question - it says I am using part of weapon to make "shield bash", so do I receive weapon's enhancement bonus when doing so ? Whole weapon is magic so it should still count when attacking with hilt for example, right :P?

Yes, the Armament Shield gets the enhancement bonus as well as any special property on your 2H weapon. Additionally, this also means you can TWF with the 2hander and the light shield as well.

[Necromancy]

Yes, the Armament Shield gets the enhancement bonus as well as any special property on your 2H weapon. Additionally, this also means you can TWF with the 2hander and the light shield as well.

Ahh my bad, sorry I'm not that familiar with 3rd party books as my group never allowed them

[Florian]

Ahh my bad, sorry I'm not that familiar with 3rd party books as my group never allowed them

Thanks anyway. Reminds me to recheck the build of my SnB Fighter to see if switching from Longsword to a TH-weapon is feasible.

[upho]

Okay okay, this one is a bit too cheesy for me(and especially for my GM !), but thanks anyway because there are a lot of tips that will be very useful for me !I must admit I can see why you see it as cheesy, at least in the sense of using the RAW in a complex combination which was surely not foreseen by the designers, resulting in a highly unique, flashy and physics-defying martial fighting style (which simply wouldn't work at all IRL, if that matters to a PF player for some weird reason). But I have an NPC in my current home game using the "Black Hole Control Combo", and while his fighting style surely feels appropriately "highly unique, flashy and physics-defying" (he's a bombastic professional gladiator "superstar"), it doesn't make him feel like a munchkin joke at odds with the tone of the campaign and setting (which is more serious and gritty than Golarion and most Paizo adventure paths).


Yea I looked at it and Steel Flurry Strike, both very good. What will errata change ?Nothing final has been decided (or at least not been made official) yet AFAIK. But IIRC, the discussions here on GitP about Steel Flurry Strike and Broken Blade Stance, most of which included PoW writers, didn't continue beyond "Steel Flurry's bonus damage should be reduced with at least 1d6 (or perhaps even removed)", and those about Broken Blade Stance ended with "bonus damage instead of yet another extra attack if TWF". (Or was it the other way around? I'm not sure...)

Anyhow, many of these discussions happened more than a year back, so don't trust my memory (I don't). :smallredface: I'm sure you could find most of those threads though. And I believe the PoW team is currently working on the errata for the first book, so you'll soon find out anyways.