Best use of gestalt

[Immabozo]

I am not playing a gestalt game, although, I wouldn't mind it, but what would be the best gestalt combo? I'm sure its like wizard/psion 20/20 or something, but lets say you wanted to build a melee. Would taking RHD/X class be a good use of your first 3 or 4 levels?

[AvatarVecna]

I am not playing a gestalt game, although, I wouldn't mind it, but what would be the best gestalt combo? I'm sure its like wizard/psion 20/20 or something, but lets say you wanted to build a melee. Would taking RHD/X class be a good use of your first 3 or 4 levels?

Conventional wisdom is to combine an active class (people who's class features require actions to be taken, like spellcasters) with a passive class (like Monk, which gets tons of little bonuses like all good Saves, slow fall, increased movement, poison/disease immunity, etc). Monk, as a standalone class, is terrible, but giving all those Monk bonuses to a full caster, particularly a Dex/Wis based one, is wonderful. Combining full casters can work, but usually you either end up with long adventuring days as you use up all your spells, or you need a way to get spells out quicker.

If you're trying to make a melee killer, take a standard fairly capable martial build (like a Swift Hunter Scout/Ranger, a well-built Rogue, a mounted Paladin, Jack B Quick), and throw Fighter on the other side. You'd be amazed how many martial builds are held back primarily by the limited number of feats they get.

[Immabozo]

Conventional wisdom is to combine an active class (people who's class features require actions to be taken, like spellcasters) with a passive class (like Monk, which gets tons of little bonuses like all good Saves, slow fall, increased movement, poison/disease immunity, etc). Monk, as a standalone class, is terrible, but giving all those Monk bonuses to a full caster, particularly a Dex/Wis based one, is wonderful. Combining full casters can work, but usually you either end up with long adventuring days as you use up all your spells, or you need a way to get spells out quicker.

If you're trying to make a melee killer, take a standard fairly capable martial build (like a Swift Hunter Scout/Ranger, a well-built Rogue, a mounted Paladin, Jack B Quick), and throw Fighter on the other side. You'd be amazed how many martial builds are held back primarily by the limited number of feats they get.

That makes sense! thank you

[ExLibrisMortis]

The active/passive idea is pretty leading. You can also do something like in combat/out of combat. Good passive sides are things with a nice chassis, defensive or stat-boosting abilities, and of course your tier 1s, as usual. In terms of classes:
Incarnum classes (and binder): Goes with anything - boosts to almost anything possible.
Bard: Especially on a melee character - skill points, the two saves you're missing, boosts to attack and damage, out of combat utility.
Tome of Battle classes: Any weapon-wielder should dip 1-2 levels - great utility and raw power, and a recovery mechanic is very useful. Full or near-full levels make great gishes.
Tier 1 classes: They can do anything, including buffing your active side, crafting magic items, or providing out-of-combat utility.
Factotum: Every skill is a class skill, and you get extra actions at level 8 - effectively giving you more of your active side.
Racial hit dice: If you want to play a proper, high-ECL monster, gestalt is the way to do it.

An important part of gestalt is that you can get full casting with not-full-casting PrCs, such as a wizard 5/swiftblade 10/wizard +1//warblade 5/wizard +1/warblade +2/wizard +1/warblade +2/wizard +1/warblade +2/wizard +1/warblade +1 (that last wizard level on the swiftblade side is because it's the 10th, so it has a bonus feat).

[Divide by Zero]

The strongest combination of two classes with no multiclassing is probably Wizard/Factotum. Wizard is already arguably the strongest single class, while Factotum makes you care even less about stats other than Int, has mostly passive or free-action abilities, makes you much better at skill-using (granted, you could probably solve most of the same problems with spells, but this way you can save your spell slots for feats that mere mortals can't accomplish), lets you beat SR, and most importantly gives you extra actions to cast more spells.

[Triskavanski]

One combo that I have that one might not consider is a Thunder Caller Bard|Skald depending on one's view of Versatile performance and if you get two paths of it going. One side takes a single level of Lore Oracle, and picks up Side Step Secret. Then extra revolution for Lore Keeper. Take Noble Scion to get Cha to Init. And there is a trait that adds your cha to some will saves instead of wis.

For spells, since you've got the same spell list twice, take some of the master pieces in place of your spells.

Now your AC, Reflex, Init, Knowledge skills, and a few other skills are all based on CHA. You have Good saving throws all around and more bardic music than you can shake your bootie too.

[AvatarVecna]

Oh yeah, the chassis combinations are also worth mentioning: getting full BAB and a good HD go hand-in-hand (since most full BAB classes have a d10/d12, with a few having d8), getting lots of skills is useful, and getting all good saves is much easier. In this regard, classes that have good abilities in two or more categories are useful: or this reason, Barbarians (full BAB, d12 HD, good Fort), Bards (good Ref, good Will, 6 SP), Rangers (full BAB, d8 HD, good Fort, good Ref, 6 SP), and Rogues (d8 HD, good Ref, 8 SP) tend to combine well with other things in Gestalt from the get-go.

As mentioned, PrCs that grant less than full spellcasting progression become a lot more viable in gestalt, although if the DM is a stickler about classes staying on one side, it's still kinda tricky. Most DMs shouldn't be that picky though.

[Florian]

The Active//Passive combination has already been mentioned, the next thing is working on your economy of actions. That means broaden and/or combine what you can do at the same time, so, for example Active//Passive with Animal Companion and/or Familiar.

To use an PF example: Magus//Wizard with Familiar is good, Summoner//Sorcerer with Familiar and Eidolon is better.

[Rebel7284]

Wizard 5/Spelldancer 1/Swiftblade 9/X 5
//
Factotum 6/Wizard 1/Factotum 2/Wizard 1/Factotum 2/Wizard 1/Factotum 1/Y 6

[enderlord99]

Generally, effective gestalt characters are active//passive.

Example: Warblade 20 // Factotum 20

Tristalt (that is, gestalt with three classes at a time, rather than two) characters are ideally endurance//limited//passive.

Example: Warblade 20 // Psion 4 / Metamind 10 / Psion +6 // Factotum 20

[Immabozo]

Generally, effective gestalt characters are active//passive.

Example: Warblade 20 // Factotum 20

Tristalt (that is, gestalt with three classes at a time, rather than two) characters are ideally endurance//limited//passive.

Example: Warblade 20 // Psion 4 / Metamind 10 / Psion +6 // Factotum 20

Now that would be an interesting character!

[Triskavanski]

I had a Fighter | Rogue | Mind Blade Magus.

Rogue had Ki Pool and Enhanced Ki Pool, Magus has Ki Arcana. So I had like 60 points of Arcana pool. I could easily switch out what weapons I was armed with as well to use the ones with the best qualities at the given time. (Took Monk Weapon Training) Then used Ascetic Style. So everything was the same.

[Ualaa]

The Wizard|Psion has one set of actions.
So they can cast a Wizard spell or activate a Psionic power, but not both in the same round.
Well maybe -- with a Quickened Spell, or perhaps with the Hustle feat and Hustle Power (assuming Pathfinder, and the psionics of Dreamscarred Press).
But still the character has one set of actions, even if they have multiple spell lists.

The guy has D6 hit dice, 0.50 (half BAB), only one good saving throw, which their key/important stat does not greatly improve upon.
The skill points in minimum.
There is no armor proficiency, and one of the classes suffers arcane spell failure.
The wizard could use Mage Armor + Shield or the Psion could use Inertial Armor + Force Screen, so neither class really adds to the other in this regard.



Now imagine the Wizard (or Psion) crossed with a Ranger.
The Ranger passively ups the HD from D6 to D10, for an extra 4 initial hit points and an average of 2 additional hit points per level thereafter.
The Ranger has a strong Fortitude and Reflex save, which combines with the Wizard (or Psion) for three good saving throws.
The Ranger gains several class features.
Bonus feats are combat related, but could easily be Point-Blank Shot and Precise Shot, allowing for shooting into a melee without issue.
Six skill points per level, sure beats two.

You're still primarily casting one spell (or activating one power) per round.
But the Ranger passively adds a ton to the caster, which another caster does not.


For Gestalt, I like:
Ranger|Wizard
Paladin|(Synthesist)Summoner
Druid|Wizard
Cleric|Monk/Paladin
Bard|Paladin


If you want to really stack crazy stuff...

Monk 2 (Master of Many Styles) with Crane Style & Crane Wing... nets Wisdom to AC.
Pick up Crane Riposte, once you qualify.
Sorcerer 3 (with only Charisma 11), with Magical Knack, nets you Mage Armor basically all day plus Shield for the first three fights.
Soulknife 4 (Ultimate Psionics), with the Blade Skills: Focused Offense (requires level 2) and Focused Defense (requires level 4), for Wisdom to AC (as a dodge bonus) when fighting defensively and allows for Wisdom to attack/defense with melee weapons.
You already have Dex to AC.
Three ranks in Acrobatics... with Crane Style is -2 attack for +4 AC, while fighting defensively... Crane Riposte will reduce the penalty to -1 attack.
If you're using Spheres of Power (we are), then a Symbiat level will net you INT to AC.
Duelist (Weapon Finesse, so Dex investment) doesn't necessarily have superb synergy, but that adds Int to AC (per Duelist level).
That was the chasis for one of our characters.


The Warder (Path of War) has good synergy with the Tactician.
The player started with Paladin and then went to Warder.
But said if he had known of the Warder, he would have been Warder|Tactician from the start.
The character lasted 26 sessions in Rappan Athuk, which is our record so far.

For our healers, Oracle|Vitalist was rather sick.
But Oracle|Summoner lasted the longest, with a lot of Invisibility and either healing or summoning while Invisible.

Sorcerer/Barbarian|Druid(Wildshape) was rather sick damage with a charge focus.

[Immabozo]

I guess STP Erudite is basically a wizard/psion gestalt anyway, haha. But wow, there is a lot more to gestalt than I remember!!

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Psion is a special case. Since psionics has some of the absolute best action economy abusing abilities in the game (except for planar bubble, anyway), it's an active class that works really well gestalted with another active class. For example, you can manifest a power Linked to synchronicity, and use the standard action gained to cast a wizard spell. This is doable at level 1 if you've got some way of spending 2 pp on a power (or can reduce the cost to 1); there are numerous ways to do so.

[MisterKaws]

I'm not sure why nobody mentioned the Were-Brine Swimmer(entomanothrope) Were-Fleshraker combo for a passive side.

Yes, you can have both Entomanothropy and Lycanthropy, as long as your DM appreciates cheese.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I'm not sure why nobody mentioned the Were-Brine Swimmer(entomanothrope) Were-Fleshraker combo for a passive side.

Yes, you can have both Entomanothropy and Lycanthropy, as long as your DM appreciates cheese.Go for a were-swarm. A were-murder-of-crows or a were-pity-of-doves (depending on what fluff you want) can be pretty excellent. The fact that you can turn into a humanoid-shaped swarm of beaks and feathers is icing on the cake. And the latter swarm is even immune to physical damage.

[MisterKaws]

Go for a were-swarm. A were-murder-of-crows or a were-pity-of-doves (depending on what fluff you want) can be pretty excellent. The fact that you can turn into a humanoid-shaped swarm of beaks and feathers is icing on the cake. And the latter swarm is even immune to physical damage.

My combo is better for pure offense with ubercharge abuse, but this one's fun too, kinda like something a vampire would do.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

My combo is better for pure offense with ubercharge abuse, but this one's fun too, kinda like something a vampire would do.For yours, a were-mob of fleshrakers would...technically work. I have no earthly idea what that would look like in hybrid form, however.

[Âmesang]

Barbarian 20/(Unarmed) Swordsage 20 — GO SUPER SAIYAN!!

(I'm really not taking the above all that seriously.)

[Soranar]

stp erudite//factotum is definitely the most broken combo

but there are some insane things a stp erudite can do with a wildshape ranger/master of many forms since you can manifest powers in any form

[MaxiDuRaritry]

stp erudite//factotum is definitely the most broken comboThere are plenty of other builds that are more broken than that.

It's basically a matter of how broken, at that point.

[Ahus]

Factotum goes well with anything granting action boosts, skills, and after level 19 gestalt a all by its self.

Warlock has a bunch of at will abilities that mesh well with Melee, Ranged, sneak attackers, and add some staying power and a bit of blasting to casters.

Factotum or Warlock paired with Wizard grants any and all spells ever written up to level 7 or 9 for the cost of scribing the Scroll combine with unbound scroll or other craft reducers to make that essentially free.

[Jack_Simth]

I am not playing a gestalt game, although, I wouldn't mind it, but what would be the best gestalt combo? I'm sure its like wizard/psion 20/20 or something, but lets say you wanted to build a melee. Would taking RHD/X class be a good use of your first 3 or 4 levels?
Best is "whatever you will have the most fun with that does not interfere with another's fun". Character power does not trump player or DM fun. It's hard to stress that enough.

However, you want mechanical advice, and here's some general guidelines; this particular one was slanted towards Pathfinder, but the same stuff applies.



1) Avoid MAD, look for SAD. Sure, that Paladin//Wizard looks great on paper... but to play him as a Paladin and a Wizard, you need Str (melee), Dex (AC, as you can't use armor), Con (HP), Int (Spells), Wis (Spells again), and Cha (Various Paladin class features). The Paladin//Oracle, on the other hand, is no more MAD than a normal Paladin (Str for melee, Con for HP, charisma for spells and Paladin class features, maybe a touch of Wis for Paladin spells - no need for Dex, as you've got heavy armor proficiency).

2) Watch the Action Economy, look for passive/active combinations. Sure, that Sorcerer//Oracle looks good on paper (ALL THE SPELLS ALL THE TIME), but it doesn't work out that way generally - both classes are competing for the same set of actions, so you're not really significantly better than a normal Oracle or a normal Sorcerer. Something like a Rogue//Druid, on the other hand, is passively adding sneak attack dice to the multiple natural attacks + Pounce that the Druid gets through Wildshape; as a combat druid, it's all using the same set of actions at once. An Oracle//Paladin gets a lot of nice passive benefits from the Paladin side (Divine grace, swift-action self healing, heavy armor proficiency, full BAB, d10 HD), and can do some very active stuff with the Oracle side (spells and/or long-term buffs to wade into melee).

3) Avoid class features that interfere with each other. Sure, that Sorcerer//Paladin looks pretty good... but it's hard to cast Arcane spells in heavy armor, so you need to either give up much of the Sorcerer casting, or you need to give up much of the cheap AC that comes from heavy armor that the Paladin side lets you use. If you use a Divine caster instead of an Arcane one, however, there's no problems casting in armor.

4) Make sure to end up with a nice chassis. Yes, that Wizard//Sorcerer ends up with ultimate arcane might... but it's a d6 hit die, one good save, and poor BAB. You want at least two good saves (and can usually get three), a d8 hit die (although d10 is better), and at least medium BAB. That Druid//Rogue gets a d8 HD, all good saves, and medium BAB. That Paladin//Oracle gets d10 HD, two good saves, and full BAB.

5) The game still rewards specialization. Unless you're short party members, don't try to be a Jack of all trades, as you're likely to end up a master of none. You've only got one set of feats, one allocation of wealth, and so on. A Paladin//oracle and an Oracle//paladin look very similar if that's all you know about them, but they're actually quite different. The first uses Oracle buffs to supplement the Paladin abilities and wade into melee, and picks up feats and items primarily related to melee (so Power Attack, cleave, a nice sword, good armor, and so on). The second uses Paladin benefits to be able to slack off on a few things the Oracle would otherwise need while the Oracle zaps away with spells (so metamagic, extra revelation, Charisma boosters, metamagic rods, and so on). They play quite differently. If you try to be a full Oracle//Paladin, however, your feats and wealth are going to be stretched quite thin, and you'll be less useful at either role.

Edit: Oh yes, and you may have problems obeying all of these completely. That's actually OK. You'll usually end up not using at least some class features - for instance, that Oracle//paladin isn't going to be getting much use out of that full BAB, due to how easy it is to land (ranged) touch spells. It's still a strong combination. All else being equal, the more of these you can follow, and the better you can follow them, the stronger overall the character. However: Character power does not trump player or DM fun. It's hard to stress that enough. You're playing a game with no real stakes. The only true definition of winning is "Did everyone have consequence-free fun?" If the answer is yes, then you won. If the answer is no, then you lost. In the end, your character doesn't really matter: You do, and your friends do. If everyone has fun playing a party of bards that get TPK'd every other session? That's a win. If everyone has fun playing a party of optimized characters that roll over CR+10 encounters? That's a win too. If someone at the table is perpetually bored with the uber-characters, that's a loss. If something in-game breaks a real-life friendship, that's a loss too. Know your actual priorities.

[Immabozo]

Best is "whatever you will have the most fun with that does not interfere with another's fun". Character power does not trump player or DM fun. It's hard to stress that enough.

However, you want mechanical advice, and here's some general guidelines; this particular one was slanted towards Pathfinder, but the same stuff applies.

that is great advice, thank you

[Cosi]

I think the people disparaging double caster don't really know what they're talking about. The Persisted spells of an Incantatrix or DMM Cleric are as good or better than what the vast majority of classes have to offer. feather fall comes online before Slow Fall, and it is a better ability. And so on for a lot of the abilities people want you to care about when suggesting Fighter or Monk or some other terrible class in Gestalt.

If you are not going for double casting, you want at least d8 HD, average BAB, all good saves, 6 skills/level (with a decent list), and full casting. And ideally some improvement to HD, BAB, or skills. Cleric // Rogue, Druid // Rogue, Wizard // Ranger and similar are all good choices.

A few specific classes that bear mentioning:

Factotum: I think this is pretty overrated in many discussions, particularly in concert with casters. Yes, you can fire off three to eight spells in the first round of combat. But you only actually have the normal allotment of a Wizard of your level. In most games, you'd be better off picking a class that enhances your staying power. In those games where you do need the firepower, minions have a substantially higher rate of return than Factotum levels do. You could take a bunch of Factotum levels to get five actions in the first round. Or you could just cast greater planar binding every day for a week and get enough minions to take eight actions every round. I supposed there's something to be said for Factotum // Warblade or something, but at that point neither of your classes are casters and what are you even doing with your life?

Artificer: The Artificer is kind of the ultimate "passive class". You seriously have like two class features that you can even use in a fight (the things that let you metamagic items, some infusions). But if you are willing to do the (admittedly, absurdly tedious) work of managing an Artificer, you can get the gear to substantially enhance whatever it is you do.

Rogue: In addition to providing good skills and some nifty abilities, the Rogue also grants bonus feats, which can be literally any feat in the game. Including Epic feats. Particularly fun with Druid, as the Epic Wild Shape feats grant Supernatural abilities.

Wild Shape: Speaking of Wild Shape, Wild Shape is awesome. Druid or Ranger, potentially with Master of Many Forms, Warshaper, or Planar Shepherd offer an exciting variety of things to turn into when solving the problem at hand with your spells seems boring.


Monk, as a standalone class, is terrible, but giving all those Monk bonuses to a full caster, particularly a Dex/Wis based one, is wonderful.

No, it's still terrible. Combining Cleric and Monk gets you d8 HD, average BAB, all good saves, 4 skills, and a bunch of abilities you can't use (because you're wearing armor). Compare that to Cleric and Rogue, which gets you d8 HD, average BAB, all good saves, 8 skills, some abilities that will be useful occasionally, and eventually unrestricted bonus feats. Monk is awful in Gestalt, because everything about its chassis is average except saves, and when you consider you already get a good save or two, that's average as well. You're much better off with something that is above average in areas you care about like Rogue or Ranger.


If you're trying to make a melee killer, take a standard fairly capable martial build (like a Swift Hunter Scout/Ranger, a well-built Rogue, a mounted Paladin, Jack B Quick), and throw Fighter on the other side. You'd be amazed how many martial builds are held back primarily by the limited number of feats they get.

Do not do this. This is terrible. If you really need Fighter feats, heroics is a spell. Go Whatever // Wizard/Incantatrix.

[Immabozo]

Wow, I never realized there was so much to think about with gestalt!!!

[Eisfalken]

Don't forget one of the original, still-viable gish builds, the Paladin/Sorcerer gestalt. There's a lot of fun things to do with that build. You can dump the paladin's spellcasting for feats, to open up more Divine Metamagic abuse. Dump familiar for spell shield to soak up more damage better in melee. You can technically dump Str and stack up more Dex for a Weapon Finesse build using a muspelrule and greater mighty wallop, with a side of Arcane Strike for more juicy beatdown flavor.

And the mental image of a paladin-sorcerer beating down foes with what kind of looks like a walking stick is a might fine one in my head...

[Ahus]

A few specific classes that bear mentioning:

Factotum: I think this is pretty overrated in many discussions, particularly in concert with casters. Yes, you can fire off three to eight spells in the first round of combat. But you only actually have the normal allotment of a Wizard of your level. In most games, you'd be better off picking a class that enhances your staying power. In those games where you do need the firepower, minions have a substantially higher rate of return than Factotum levels do. You could take a bunch of Factotum levels to get five actions in the first round. Or you could just cast greater planar binding every day for a week and get enough minions to take eight actions every round. I supposed there's something to be said for Factotum // Warblade or something, but at that point neither of your classes are casters and what are you even doing with your life?

Artificer: The Artificer is kind of the ultimate "passive class". You seriously have like two class features that you can even use in a fight (the things that let you metamagic items, some infusions). But if you are willing to do the (admittedly, absurdly tedious) work of managing an Artificer, you can get the gear to substantially enhance whatever it is you do.

Factotum is not all about the extra actions. It is a powerful class feature in almost all ways better than Quicken Spell. Factotum is a good generalist chassis, arguably the best skill money, able to fire off an a arcane spell or two, add a few sneak attack dice here or there, and even make a few turn attempts a day, all while grabbing a big bump to Initiative. Factotum does nothing to hinder your Greater Planar Binding Minionmancy, and if added to a Malconvoker based minionmancy build all but ensures the successful bluff check.

Add factotum to the Artificer and never worry about missing a UMD check for item creation again.

One of my favorite builds given an allowance for having Two PRCs is to Malconvoker on one side and Marshal / Nar Demonbinder / Dread Witch. With the right races / feats / equipment you can regularly Greater Planar Bind a 22hd critter as a standard action.

[Cosi]

Factotum is not all about the extra actions. It is a powerful class feature in almost all ways better than Quicken Spell.

The extra actions are probably more than 90% of the reason to pick Factotum. Your other class features are basically equivalent to taking three or so levels of a bunch of classes.


Factotum is a good generalist chassis, arguably the best skill money,

Picking a generalist chassis in Gestalt is stupid. You want a specialist that compliments whatever your first class is a specialist in, minimizing wasted value from overlap. And the best Gestalt skill monkey is Rogue. You get all the important skills, and you get bonus feats which can be anything you want. Also sneak attack and some defensive abilities.


able to fire off an a arcane spell or two, add a few sneak attack dice here or there, and even make a few turn attempts a day,

If I wanted arcane casting four levels behind parity, a few dice of sneak attack, and turning, I could play a Rogue 3/Cleric 1/Wizard 16. But that is terrible, and I don't want that.


all while grabbing a big bump to Initiative.

A bonus comparable to nerveskitter and worse then celerity, which you could get with a three level dip into Factotum.


Factotum does nothing to hinder your Greater Planar Binding Minionmancy, and if added to a Malconvoker based minionmancy build all but ensures the successful bluff check.

But all the things it does are either redundant with minionmancy (extra actions) or lame (everything else). And Malconvoker minionmancy is not really all that impressive. Yes, you can bind a monster that is 2HD bigger than normal. Yay you! Except you gave up a caster level to do it, there are already CR 18 monsters you can get with planar binding, and the real power is in repeated binding.


Add factotum to the Artificer and never worry about missing a UMD check for item creation again.

That bonus seems smaller than the Cleric's guidance of the avatar. But whatever floats your boat.