What are the advantages and flaws of the Banneret/Purple Dragon Knight?

[Coidzor]

I've been thinking about playing an inspiring, warlordish character for my next one & was curious if Bard was the main option this edition so far when a friend mentioned the Purple Dragon Knight/Banneret from SCAG.

Good to go as-is for a character that's a badass in his own right and makes his allies more awesome? Needs some tweaks? Doesn't really fill that niche?

Any alternatives to accomplish my general goal? Would prefer to not be primarily casting, outside of Green Flame Blade.

[X3r4ph]

Why chose? A healthy combination of the two classes would be awesome.

I am recently messed around with the same idea for a backup character. We are level 11 and most niches of the group is already filled.
I ended up with Rogue (Mastermind) 3/ Fighter (Battlemaster) 3/ Bard (Lore) 5. This gives me tons of abilities to help my group. Grab a bow, mobile feat and a close quarters fighting style to jump around in combat. Lending a helping hand wherever needed.

[Specter]

Strenghts: Decent healing (you essentialy get Mass Healing Word at level 3), decent social skills, good buffing at higher levels.
Weaknesses: Depending on other party members to be good (no solo adventuring for you).

It's good, really. People will make it seem like it blows hard, but it doesn't.

[Lonesomechunk44]

I like it a lot. Sure, you aren't quite as strong on your own, but come on! you can heal your allies, grant them extra attacks, and even gain expertise in persuasion. If you are playing in a group with plenty of healing (ex: a Paladin and a Cleric or a Life Cleric) than this class might not be all that great because one of its abilities will be kind of useless. But otherwise, if you are playing in a party with say, a Bard or a Druid, who have cure wounds but aren't "healers" per say, you should fill a nice role in the party, as tank, attacker and supporter

[jas61292]

Strenghts: Decent healing (you essentialy get Mass Healing Word at level 3), decent social skills, good buffing at higher levels.
Weaknesses: Depending on other party members to be good (no solo adventuring for you).

It's good, really. People will make it seem like it blows hard, but it doesn't.

This is so true. A lot of time people talking on boards like this talk about characters and classes as if they are taking on an adventure by themselves, but this is not true most of the time. As part of a full party, the Banneret has some very nice abilities, and is very useful. Yeah, you do need a party to take advantage of most of your features, but its not like you don't have the whole fighter chassis to fall back on if you get caught alone. And lets be honest here, how often do you get caught alone if you don't want to be? Not very often.

Now, that said, it is a class whose usefulness does vary based on the party. If you already have a bard and a cleric in the party throwing around healing words, then the ability to heal others with your second wind is obviously not as useful. Its still quite nice, but it won't feel nearly as awesome as it would in a party with a barbarian, sorcerer and rogue.

Similarly, when you get your level 10 ability, how much mileage you get out of it depends a lot on who else is in the party. Giving an extra attack to a sneak attacking rogue is golden. Giving it to a raging barbarian or a ranger with hunter's mark is very good as well. But if the best you can do is let your Sorcerer buddy throw a dagger with his +2 Dex, you are going to be very underwhelmed by your abilities.

So, yeah, the power of the class definitely does depend on your party, but its abilities are always useful, and can be especially potent, given the right team.

[darkdragoon]

It mostly extends your abilities to allies and a skill bonus.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Rallying Cry and Inspiring Surge are quite nice, Bulwark is decent, and Royal Envoy is... mediocre. Its biggest flaw is that it doesn't really add much. Battle Master and Eldrich Knight both add a slew of variety, but almost as important is that they have a goodly number of uses of said abilities. Champion is a smaller power boost, but a constant one. Banneret offers neither. You'll very rarely get to feel like a leader, because you'll only be able to do your leader things once every few battles. It'll be good at stabbing because Fighters are always good at stabbing, but you'd probably be better off just taking Battle Master, Inspiring Leader and a level of Rogue. (Maybe three levels to get the Mastermind's Master of Tactics).

[Specter]

Rallying Cry and Inspiring Surge are quite nice, Bulwark is decent, and Royal Envoy is... mediocre. Its biggest flaw is that it doesn't really add much. Battle Master and Eldrich Knight both add a slew of variety, but almost as important is that they have a goodly number of uses of said abilities. Champion is a smaller power boost, but a constant one. Banneret offers neither. You'll very rarely get to feel like a leader, because you'll only be able to do your leader things once every few battles. It'll be good at stabbing because Fighters are always good at stabbing, but you'd probably be better off just taking Battle Master, Inspiring Leader and a level of Rogue. (Maybe three levels to get the Mastermind's Master of Tactics).

I get where you're coming from, but aren't you the guy who complained about needing Expertise to be good at skills? PDK doesn't, for one.

[RickAllison]

I get where you're coming from, but aren't you the guy who complained about needing Expertise to be good at skills? PDK doesn't, for one.

Yes they do. It is the second ability they get (IiRC) that gives them the Persuasion skill or another if they already have it, then gives doubled proficiency bonus (Expertise) for Persuasion.

[Specter]

Yes they do. It is the second ability they get (IiRC) that gives them the Persuasion skill or another if they already have it, then gives doubled proficiency bonus (Expertise) for Persuasion.

Yeah, I know. So with 3 class skills and Expertise in one, you get some Bard feeling with a Fighter.

[Coidzor]

Rallying Cry and Inspiring Surge are quite nice, Bulwark is decent, and Royal Envoy is... mediocre. Its biggest flaw is that it doesn't really add much. Battle Master and Eldrich Knight both add a slew of variety, but almost as important is that they have a goodly number of uses of said abilities. Champion is a smaller power boost, but a constant one. Banneret offers neither. You'll very rarely get to feel like a leader, because you'll only be able to do your leader things once every few battles. It'll be good at stabbing because Fighters are always good at stabbing, but you'd probably be better off just taking Battle Master, Inspiring Leader and a level of Rogue. (Maybe three levels to get the Mastermind's Master of Tactics).

That was my main concern, only doing my shtick every 1-4 fights.

Looks like the DM is taking inspiration from the Banneret, Battlemaster, Bard, and the 3.X Marshall and Knight for a homebrew fighter archetype.

[djreynolds]

You're asking a fighter to put points in charisma, but with very little return.

But this is a good choice for a bard or paladin to grab and multiclass with.

Its not a bad archetype, but he could've gotten more. Inspiring leader opens up some possibilities as does taking martial adept-rally.

This feels more like a prestige class... or someone retiring from adventuring and become a captain of the guard or general.

I'd rather have a battlemaster who took levels in cleric

[Gwendol]

You're asking a fighter to put points in charisma, but with very little return.

But this is a good choice for a bard or paladin to grab and multiclass with.

Its not a bad archetype, but he could've gotten more. Inspiring leader opens up some possibilities as does taking martial adept-rally.

This feels more like a prestige class... or someone retiring from adventuring and become a captain of the guard or general.

I'd rather have a battlemaster who took levels in cleric

Not really true. Inspiring leader is a given, and Martial adept is also great. I would however recommend dropping rally for Commanders strike, distracting strike, or goading. Pick the Noble (Knight) background, a squire and two retainers.
Inspiring surge multiplies the best ability the fighter has, action surge, with one more weapon attack.

Multiclassing is always a possibility, and picking a CHA based caster class is a good choice.

[djreynolds]

Put just a paladin can do it better, more healing, up to +5 on saves.

I find the Purple Dragon Knight to be a mish/mash of stuff the fighter has, that he can give to others, and its not much. You have to wait till 15th level to help out on saves. The paladin does this at 6th, he and the valor bard have healing word. A free reaction attack, but it uses up your reaction. Its not like its a free horde breaker. Expertise in persuasion at 7th level.

Its a bad archetype, you can play a paladin/valor bard and have way more fun in the process and contribute more.

I'm sorry and do not want to hurt others feelings, but it isn't a good class.

[Gwendol]

Put just a paladin can do it better, more healing, up to +5 on saves.

I find the Purple Dragon Knight to be a mish/mash of stuff the fighter has, that he can give to others, and its not much. You have to wait till 15th level to help out on saves. The paladin does this at 6th, he and the valor bard have healing word. A free reaction attack, but it uses up your reaction. Its not like its a free horde breaker. Expertise in persuasion at 7th level.

Its a bad archetype, you can play a paladin/valor bard and have way more fun in the process and contribute more.

I'm sorry and do not want to hurt others feelings, but it isn't a good class.

But then you have to play a paladin or valor bard, with all the hassle of being a spell-caster. The Banneret's advantage is that the class abilities are all riders on the fighter abilities, thus keeping complexity to an absolute minimum. I agree with Grod though in that the abilities will be sparingly used, so adding Inspiring leader and Martial adept will be a good complement.

[Socratov]

This is so true. A lot of time people talking on boards like this talk about characters and classes as if they are taking on an adventure by themselves, but this is not true most of the time. As part of a full party, the Banneret has some very nice abilities, and is very useful. Yeah, you do need a party to take advantage of most of your features, but its not like you don't have the whole fighter chassis to fall back on if you get caught alone. And lets be honest here, how often do you get caught alone if you don't want to be? Not very often.

snip

while you can assume you will act within a team, you can't assume what the team will be. so when talkin gon a board without specifically stated party composition you can't assume external factors and can only judge the class by itself. Besides, most times when reviewing a class mentions on hwo it could work in a team are mentioned. That said, most of those are phrased by conditions and thus allow the reader to see how they aren't always useful to have (thus inviting the suck).

[djreynolds]

But then you have to play a paladin or valor bard, with all the hassle of being a spell-caster. The Banneret's advantage is that the class abilities are all riders on the fighter abilities, thus keeping complexity to an absolute minimum. I agree with Grod though in that the abilities will be sparingly used, so adding Inspiring leader and Martial adept will be a good complement.

I would grab some Swashbuckler with it, that 9th level ability could be cool.
Something along the lines of swashbuckler 9/bannerette 11, this will keep it all short rest martial, no magic, get some initiative--- very musketeer follow me.

[Gwendol]

Very good suggestion. There are quite a few synergies to be had by that setup, actually.

[djreynolds]

Very good suggestion. There are quite a few synergies to be had by that setup, actually.

It could be a cool non-magical bard type, inspiring the troops. The guy waving the flag for the troops to follow,

Just need dex, con, and chr. 3 attacks.

I would like for the bannerette to get something like a "warding bond" type of thing, but I think that's what the crown gets.

[Ivogel]

I'm playing a sword and board purple drahpn knight in an out of the abyss campaign, though we are only lv 4, so the rallying cry feature hasn't really come up that much, mostly bc we're not taking a lot of damage and everyone has a lot of temp. Hp due to my inspirong leader feat at 18 Cha (lucky roll)