Saving Throw question

[Mjolnirbear]

If PC Stokan attempts to polymorph a werewolf, the spell doesn't take effect. But does the PC know whether a save was made, and whether it passed or failed?

[hymer]

If PC Stokan attempts to polymorph a werewolf, the spell doesn't take effect. But does the PC know whether a save was made, and whether it passed or failed?

I'll go out on a limb here, ninjas to every side, and say the rules are silent on this. Ask your DM, indeed.
Personally, I might choose this as the time to reveal the big secret that the target is a lycanthrope (the PC did likely spend their highest spell slot to no apparent effect), or I might play up the mystery, depending on the context.

Edit: Woohoo, no shadowmonks!

[Plaguescarred]

It'd be up to DM wether polymorph has a perceptible effect or not when sucessfully saved, but has a general rule, a creature might not know it was targeted by a spell unless the spell has a perceptible effect.


Targets: Unless a spell has a perceptible effect, a creature might not know it w as targeted by a spell at all. An effect like crackling lightning is obvious, but a more subtle effect, such as an attempt to read a creature’s thoughts, typically goes unnoticed, unless a spell says otherwise.

[Christian]

It'd be up to DM wether polymorph has a perceptible effect or not when sucessfully saved, but has a general rule, a creature might not know it was targeted by a spell unless the spell has a perceptible effect.


Targets: Unless a spell has a perceptible effect, a creature might not know it w as targeted by a spell at all. An effect like crackling lightning is obvious, but a more subtle effect, such as an attempt to read a creature’s thoughts, typically goes unnoticed, unless a spell says otherwise.

Ah, but that is for the target. What about the caster?

I'm inclined to say that RAW implies not, but only in inferentially. The text of the spell Zone of Truth states that the caster " ... know[s] whether each creature succeeds or fails on its saving throw." This appears to be a specific counterexample to the general case that a caster doesn't know whether a creature succeeds or fails on its saving throw against his spells.

Weak, I know. However, another point. Shapechangers are not, in fact, immune to the polymorph spell. The text of the spell states instead that they "automatically make" the Wisdom save to negate the spell. So what we're hoping the caster can distinguish is not whether or not the subject made its save, but whether it made its save by rolling well, or for some other reason (magical protection? being a shapechanger? etc.), and if so, perhaps even what that other reason was.

Yeah, that's weak too, but it's all I see. I think in a game, I'd probably offer up an Intelligence (Arcana) check with escalating levels of useful information. (DC 20: he seemed to shrug that off really easily--he must have an exceptionally high Wisdom save; DC 25: even that can't explain how easily he avoided being polymorphed, he's protected from that somehow; DC 30: Werewolf! Get the silvered arrows!!)

(Barbarian: "There wolf. There castle." [/Mel Brooks])

[Ninja_Prawn]

Someone called for a ninja? *huff, huff* I'm here, I'm here!


a creature might not know it was targeted by a spell unless the spell has a perceptible effect.

For the target, yes, but for the caster? I tend towards letting a caster know if their spell has failed, or been saved, or if the effect has ended because the target went out of range. It feels more 'realistic' to me that way.

RAW, of course, is "ask your DM," as hymer pointed out already.

Edit: so, predictably, I got ninja'd there. Not sure I agree that the existence of a specific rule implies that it's an exception to an unwritten general rule, but it's a good spot nonetheless.

[JoeJ]

If PC Stokan attempts to polymorph a werewolf, the spell doesn't take effect. But does the PC know whether a save was made, and whether it passed or failed?

The fact that they didn't change should be pretty obvious.

[Safety Sword]

The fact that they didn't change should be pretty obvious.

Correct. You clearly know it didn't do what you wanted it to.

I like to leave the mystery intact and not reveal the reason though.

[hymer]

The fact that they didn't change should be pretty obvious.

I think the question is OP poses is about whether the caster knows more than that the effect didn't take hold. Do they know if a saving throw is rolled? Do they know no save was required? Should the DM roll a d20 and pretend to consult it? Is it usually rolled in the open?

[Mjolnirbear]

I am the DM. In many ways I lean towards 3E for these unwritten rules, and IIRC in 3E the caster knows whether you saved or not... But then, the target knew whether they were targeted by magic as soon as they had to save.

Although I didn't know lycanthrope immunity was due to automagic success at the save so that answers part of my question.

[Fighting_Ferret]

As to the making a save, obviously the desired affect didn't take place. here's what the PHB says about that...

"Unless a spell has a perceptible effect, a creature might not know it was targeted by a spell at all. An effect like crackling lightning is obvious, but a more
subtle effect, such as an attempt to read a creature’s thoughts, typically goes unnoticed, unless a spell says otherwise."

But as to the caster knowing a save was successful or not, the PHB is mum. Here's how "I' see it...

Strength and Dexterity saves have obvious visible affects. They avoided your entangle spell or pulled away easily, or dodged out of the way of your lighting bolt.
Constitution and Wisdom tend to deal with the body/mind respectively and those spell affects when saved against should result in the target pausing briefly and shaking the effect off.
Intelligence and Charisma are usually direct affect spells and as such the caster should know if/when they succeed/fail.

All in all the caster has some information on how their spell functioned. A creature that is immune to a spell effect wouldn't be making a save at all... they just wouldn't dodge and take the full brunt of damage spells, without taking a scratch. Con/Wis saves wouldn't stagger then in the slightest, and Int/Cha saves would be met with nothing/blank minds. In your case they don't necessarily need to know that the target auto-succeeds, as that is specific information, but rather that it does succeed... especially if this is the character's/party's first dealing with lycanthropes.

In a similar vein, martials should get an idea that their weapon strikes aren't doing their normal damage.

[JoeJ]

I think the question is OP poses is about whether the caster knows more than that the effect didn't take hold. Do they know if a saving throw is rolled? Do they know no save was required? Should the DM roll a d20 and pretend to consult it? Is it usually rolled in the open?

You mean, does the caster know what the target's saving throw bonus is? I don't see anything in the rules that implies that. Game mechanics aren't generally known to the characters (except in OOTS). In the situation described in the OP, I would only tell the player that the target made their save, not what game mechanic was applied.

[Vogonjeltz]

Ah, but that is for the target. What about the caster?

I'm inclined to say that RAW implies not, but only in inferentially. The text of the spell Zone of Truth states that the caster " ... know[s] whether each creature succeeds or fails on its saving throw." This appears to be a specific counterexample to the general case that a caster doesn't know whether a creature succeeds or fails on its saving throw against his spells.

Weak, I know. However, another point. Shapechangers are not, in fact, immune to the polymorph spell. The text of the spell states instead that they "automatically make" the Wisdom save to negate the spell. So what we're hoping the caster can distinguish is not whether or not the subject made its save, but whether it made its save by rolling well, or for some other reason (magical protection? being a shapechanger? etc.), and if so, perhaps even what that other reason was.

Yeah, that's weak too, but it's all I see. I think in a game, I'd probably offer up an Intelligence (Arcana) check with escalating levels of useful information. (DC 20: he seemed to shrug that off really easily--he must have an exceptionally high Wisdom save; DC 25: even that can't explain how easily he avoided being polymorphed, he's protected from that somehow; DC 30: Werewolf! Get the silvered arrows!!)

(Barbarian: "There wolf. There castle." [/Mel Brooks])

There's no tangible distinguishable difference for the caster if the subject didn't get polymorphed, all the caster would know is that it obviously failed to take effect.

[xanderh]

However, another point. Shapechangers are not, in fact, immune to the polymorph spell. The text of the spell states instead that they "automatically make" the Wisdom save to negate the spell.
Actually, that's completely wrong. The exact wording is:
"the spell has no effect on a shapechanger or a creature with 0 hit points"
Nothing in the text about automatically succeeding, the spell simply has no effect.

[JoeJ]

Actually, that's completely wrong. The exact wording is:
"the spell has no effect on a shapechanger or a creature with 0 hit points"
Nothing in the text about automatically succeeding, the spell simply has no effect.

Where are you seeing that text? My PHB reads, "An unwilling creature must make a Wisdom saving throw to avoid the effect. A shapechanger automatically succeeds on this saving throw." The errata (http://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/PH_Errata_1.1.pdf) adds that it can't affect a creature with 0 hit points, but adds nothing about shapechangers.

True Polymorph says that it doesn't affect shapechangers, but regular Polymorph just says that they automatically save if they are unwilling.

[xanderh]

Where are you seeing that text? My PHB reads, "An unwilling creature must make a Wisdom saving throw to avoid the effect. A shapechanger automatically succeeds on this saving throw." The errata (http://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/PH_Errata_1.1.pdf) adds that it can't affect a creature with 0 hit points, but adds nothing about shapechangers.

True Polymorph says that it doesn't affect shapechangers, but regular Polymorph just says that they automatically save if they are unwilling.

The fifth printing has the same text on both normal and true polymorph. Maybe you have an earlier printing? My corrected printing says that the spell has no effect on shapechangers on both normal and true polymorph

[JoeJ]

The fifth printing has the same text on both normal and true polymorph. Maybe you have an earlier printing? My corrected printing says that the spell has no effect on shapechangers on both normal and true polymorph

I have the first printing, which is why I also checked the errata. Until a change gets put into a errata page and stick inside the front cover, it doesn't exist as far as I'm concerned. There's no *&$@#%! way I'm going to buy new copies of expensive books I already own.

[RickAllison]

I have the first printing, which is why I also checked the errata. Until a change gets put into a errata page and stick inside the front cover, it doesn't exist as far as I'm concerned. There's no *&$@#%! way I'm going to buy new copies of expensive books I already own.

Errata is for actual mistakes, Sage Advice is for minor corrections that merely clarify the RAW rather than correct a mistake.

Which camp this falls into is a little vague right now...

[Christian]

Since there's not, at present, any RAW difference that I can see between being immune to an effect and automatically making the save to completely negate the effect, then I find it hard to get worked up over the fact that this isn't in the errata. Either way, it's pretty clear that the RAW answer is that the only information the caster gets is that the polymorph spell failed to transform the target.

[bulbaquil]

How I would usually run it:

- Mage casts polymorph on the werewolf, party not as of yet knowing it's a werewolf.
- I roll the save anyway, against the mage's save DC.
- If the save passes: "He passed his save. Nothing happens"
- If the save fails: "You think he should have transformed, but he didn't. Something's fishy about this."
- Mage can follow up with check they think might be relevant (usually Arcana)

[Christian]

(Christian casts animate thread)

So, I'm pondering this general question again. Can a caster tell whether a target of his spell made the saving throw or not when there are no obvious effects? The example I'm looking at currently is an evil NPC wizard casting charm person on a trickster rogue/bard PC. PC makes a successful saving throw, then says to the NPC, "Gosh, sorry about all the swordplay back last time we met, buddy. Hey, I've still got all the stuff we stole from you back at my place. Come on, let's go get it."

Deception check? Or just autofail, because the wizard knows his spell tanked?

[Vorpalchicken]

I would also like to know how people treat failed charm/deception.
Also, can a werewolf choose to fail a polymorph save if it wishes?

[xanderh]

I would also like to know how people treat failed charm/deception.
Also, can a werewolf choose to fail a polymorph save if it wishes?

As per the corrected PHB and the errata, no, the werewolf can't choose to fail the save because it doesn't get one; the spell just fails.