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View Full Version : Wizard discrimination, need some second opinions



Lalliman
2016-05-31, 04:49 PM
So a friend of mine is creating a medieval fantasy setting. Within this setting exist a few types of magic users, namely clerics, warlocks, witches and wizards. They are much like the well-known classes of the same name, though are not based on any particular system. All magic in this setting is genetic, and someone's type is also determined at birth (or rather conception).

To elaborate further:
- Clerics can use healing and protective magic. Despite the name, no divine entities are involved.
- Warlocks can use destructive magic. Unlike in D&D, no otherworldly patron is involved.
- Witches are all about curses and such nasty stuff.
- Wizards can use utility magic. Probably most things a D&D wizard can do that don't involve dealing damage. My friend named creating protective barriers, teleporting, and buffing their allies' physical or magical abilities as examples of what they can do.
(There are two other types that I'm not mentioning because they're irrelevant to the discussion.)

Now here's the weird thing: In the setting there exists a stigma against wizards. Not casters in general, wizards. In his words: "wizards tend to be shut out and considered outcasts". There is a blacksmith character who is secretly a wizard and uses his magic to craft more efficiently, and my friend claims that "if the blacksmith's secret would come out, he would lose customers". He said that the reason for this is that wizards are considered "useful but unnecessary". When I questioned whether that was enough of a reason to stigmatize them, he gave the following reply. (Excuse his lack of punctuation, it was written from his phone.)

as for your earlier comment about why people act like this to wizards and not warlocks
a warlock has offensive spells yes, but as you can see from the races, they all have their own offensive abilities so a warlock just belongs to this world, human warlocks even give a balance of power between the races, plus this world still have its issues with wars and combat, even if it has lessened and if its currently peaceful, its history has been active enough with fights that warlocks are considered useful for when hell breaks lose
as there are a lot of underground and aboveground fighting touraments where magic is allowed to use and for the spectaters warlocks give a greate show and makes the matches and betting and all much more interesting and all
while wizards on the other hand have 0 direct use for all those function and settings, only if the wizard can fight him/ herself or is in a party can the magic be used correctly, but people dont look at the users when considering the magic but at the magics direct effects, meaning they dont consider a wizard to use a weapon or a wizard in a party and when you look at it like that, then it becomes a worthless magic
and due to that people look down on wizards, not seeing the potential they consider those that learn that they can use wizard magic and decide to actually learn it, well just plain negatively
the magic itself could be considered useful but unneeded as i said before, and thus those that learn it are considered even less then unneeded
this is also why magic types are called after magic titles, as they see the magic as individual and not look at the user, and as such they call a user by the title of their magic, they too often consider the users only by their magic and forget the rest
which comes back to why freelance clerics (such as runa) and wizards (such as the blacksmith) hid their magic, too popular or considered less then worthless


Is it me, or is that nonsense? It makes sense that people might deem them less admirable than other casters. But rejecting them and turning them into outcasts because their magic isn't as useful as that of other casters? Even though the majority of the population doesn't have magic to begin with? And that's assuming the uses of their magic are even as limited as he claims.

I suspect he's just groping for an excuse for some of the characters to keep their magic hidden, and came up with this. I'm still discussing it with him, but I need a second opinion, to make sure I'm not the crazy one here. Does this set-up make sense to anyone?

snowblizz
2016-05-31, 05:13 PM
No, it doesn't make much sense at all.

Some of the abilities described as wizard magic is at other times take to be the most powerful aspects of magic.

Reads like an inversion of tropes to me. "Oooh hahaha! *Wizards* are the useless shunned ppl, take that D&D wizards!".

Jormengand
2016-05-31, 05:15 PM
Irrespective of how good or bad I think his explanation is, the defining feature of prejudice and discrimination is that it's badly thought out. Sure, there may be no logical step from "Wizard magic is stupid and useless" to "Wizards are inherently bad and untrustworthy", but neither is there any logical step from... well, I'll let you fill in your own real-world example.

Honest Tiefling
2016-05-31, 05:17 PM
A little. Initially, I found it quite refreshing to have a different take on magic. I really like the idea of Warlocks with their destructive magics, being seen as the heroes of battlefields and applying deadly force to quickly end battles. This is the part I like, I could definitely see it and it makes quite a bit of sense.

Now, I could understand why other types might get get with the 'kill it with fire' type. Through I think he is going for a concept that other types of wizards aren't these brave magiknights running off to battle evil, but useless people who need others to fight for them.

I think this idea could actually work, but needs some support. Firstly, I think this makes more sense in a warrior culture. Magic Warriors? Good. Guy who wastes magic on other stuff? C'mon, what are you DOING? You could have been a great warrior!

And secondly, propose the idea that many commoners might resent magic that takes away their jobs. The magic using blacksmith is using an unfair advantage when he should be out on the battle field, defending people, not taking work from us mundane folk!

I do have to ask, why is there no backlash against witches? Curses are sorta defined as quite unpleasant.

veti
2016-05-31, 05:46 PM
It sounds as if wizards are not so much "hated and feared" as "looked down upon, viewed with contempt". So you wouldn't have to worry about pitchfork-wielding mobs, but you would expect to be put to the back of every queue, sort of thing.

Of course, wizard magic offers a lot of workarounds for "being at the back of the queue", and maybe that's part of the problem. Wizard magic makes everyday life 'too easy', wizards are seen as 'cheats'. In the case of the blacksmith example your DM mentions, I would guess that "real" blacksmiths are admired for their strength and skill, and using magic is seen as cheapening the whole craft.

Themrys
2016-05-31, 06:44 PM
It makes sense. The explanation you were given does not make sense to me, but I can come up with one that does make sense.

The wizards are useful, so the non-magic folks will want to exploit their abilities to do the jobs they themselves don't want to do. Wizards can't deal damage, so can't defend themselves. So, the only thing left to do is to create a racist ideology and use it to justify enslaving all wizards.

Then, live happily ever after in a world wherein all the dirty, dangerous or boring jobs are done by wizards in much less time than it would take to do them without magic.

Wizards would have a strong motivation to hide their ability.


Of course you have to make up a nonsensical theory on just why wizards deserve to be enslaved, but you can just claim that the ancestor of all wizards did something horrible thousands or millions of years ago, so all wizards deserve to be enslaved as punishment.

goto124
2016-06-01, 03:17 AM
Of course, wizard magic offers a lot of workarounds for "being at the back of the queue", and maybe that's part of the problem. Wizard magic makes everyday life 'too easy', wizards are seen as 'cheats'. In the case of the blacksmith example your DM mentions, I would guess that "real" blacksmiths are admired for their strength and skill, and using magic is seen as cheapening the whole craft.

Is this how wizards see sorcerers?

Mystral
2016-06-01, 03:24 AM
So.. Warlocks are okay because they kill their opponents with cool special effects, but wizards are shunned because they just make other people's lives easier?

How old is your friend?

AMFV
2016-06-01, 03:48 AM
So.. Warlocks are okay because they kill their opponents with cool special effects, but wizards are shunned because they just make other people's lives easier?

How old is your friend?

I don't know, there's lots of folk who look down on Plumbers and Farmers and are totally fine with people who do Special Effects work or other White Collar work.

Mystral
2016-06-01, 04:02 AM
I don't know, there's lots of folk who look down on Plumbers and Farmers and are totally fine with people who do Special Effects work or other White Collar work.

We're not talking about jobs everyone can do. Those people (at least in this world) are born with a special talent and then have to study for a decade to reach their level of skill. And we are not talking about cleaning people's houses or making food taste better, we're talking about teleportation, strengthening people and creating magical walls.

Teleportation alone would, even in our modern world, make you extremely rich and popular.

I think that the DM just overlooks all aspects of a game world that don't require you to first roll initiative.

Themrys
2016-06-01, 04:17 AM
We're not talking about jobs everyone can do. Those people (at least in this world) are born with a special talent and then have to study for a decade to reach their level of skill. And we are not talking about cleaning people's houses or making food taste better, we're talking about teleportation, strengthening people and creating magical walls.

Teleportation alone would, even in our modern world, make you extremely rich and popular.

I think that the DM just overlooks all aspects of a game world that don't require you to first roll initiative.

Women can make new humans. Only women can make new humans.

How do men treat women?

Yeah.

It is completely normal human behaviour to oppress and exploit the only people who can do something really, really awesome, and are the only ones who can do it.


Unless that thing is fighting, for obvious reasons.

The only problem I see here is that wizards are not as easily recognized on sight as women are. If women could just pretend to be the kind of person who can NOT make new people in their tummies, many would do. So, in that fantasy world, there would be a very large percentage of wizards who never reveal that they are wizards - which might hinder oppressing and exploiting them a bit.
They might also be able to teleport away - that's some worldbuilding the DM will have to do.

But the premise: X percentage of the population can do totally awesome thing -> is discriminated against, oppressed and exploited because of it - that part is totally plausible. It is counter-intuitive, but we know from observation that the human species is totally doing it.

AMFV
2016-06-01, 04:51 AM
We're not talking about jobs everyone can do. Those people (at least in this world) are born with a special talent and then have to study for a decade to reach their level of skill. And we are not talking about cleaning people's houses or making food taste better, we're talking about teleportation, strengthening people and creating magical walls.

Teleportation alone would, even in our modern world, make you extremely rich and popular.

I think that the DM just overlooks all aspects of a game world that don't require you to first roll initiative.

Plumbing isn't a job that everyone can do. It's difficult, smelly, hard physical labor. Plumbing is just as vital to our modern world as teleportation might be to another (I would argue drastically more so). Plumbing has saved more lives than I would imagine we have with teleportation (certainly FAR FAR more than you would save with magical walls). People still look down on plumbers, in many places.

My point is that discrimination is not based on utility at all. It's not necessarily a reasonable stance. After all, I could call people who go went to different colleges slurs, and imply that they're worse people because of sports rivalries, and that's not really related to anything.

Lalliman
2016-06-01, 05:46 AM
Irrespective of how good or bad I think his explanation is, the defining feature of prejudice and discrimination is that it's badly thought out.
Point granted.


I think this idea could actually work, but needs some support. Firstly, I think this makes more sense in a warrior culture. Magic Warriors? Good. Guy who wastes magic on other stuff? C'mon, what are you DOING? You could have been a great warrior!
I've so far seen no evidence that the human culture in this setting is particularly warlike. Also, someone's 'class' is genetic, so they didn't actually have any choice in the matter. Of course, that has rarely halted discrimination in real life.


And secondly, propose the idea that many commoners might resent magic that takes away their jobs. The magic using blacksmith is using an unfair advantage when he should be out on the battle field, defending people, not taking work from us mundane folk!


Of course, wizard magic offers a lot of workarounds for "being at the back of the queue", and maybe that's part of the problem. Wizard magic makes everyday life 'too easy', wizards are seen as 'cheats'. In the case of the blacksmith example your DM mentions, I would guess that "real" blacksmiths are admired for their strength and skill, and using magic is seen as cheapening the whole craft.
These points make a lot of sense and I'm sure this is part of his thought process as well. But it seems to me it would only apply in certain circumstances. The wizard who uses his magic to be a better blacksmith would earn the ire of mundane blacksmiths. But would he lose customers? Is it logical human behaviour to refuse to buy from someone who can produce goods more quickly and cheaply, just because he makes the profession look too easy?


I do have to ask, why is there no backlash against witches? Curses are sorta defined as quite unpleasant.
There is backlash against witches as well. In hindsight, I'm not sure why I included those, as they're fairly irrelevant to the discussion as well.


It makes sense. The explanation you were given does not make sense to me, but I can come up with one that does make sense.

The wizards are useful, so the non-magic folks will want to exploit their abilities to do the jobs they themselves don't want to do. Wizards can't deal damage, so can't defend themselves. So, the only thing left to do is to create a racist ideology and use it to justify enslaving all wizards.
That indeed makes more sense. I already had the similar idea that they would be mandatorily drafted into the service of the local ruler. Soon I'll discuss it with him some more, and if it turns out that he created this discrimination just as a reason for some characters to keep their powers hidden, I could present this as an alternative.


How old is your friend?
He has a child-like mindset at times, but most of his setting makes sense. That's why I'm so confused at this part.


Women can make new humans. Only women can make new humans.
How do men treat women?
Yeah.
It is completely normal human behaviour to oppress and exploit the only people who can do something really, really awesome, and are the only ones who can do it.
To be fair, I don't think that women's ability to produce new humans is the reason they are often oppressed. It seems to me that men often oppress women just because they can. Women are less inclined to aggression and violence, thus men asserting their will over women comes naturally, especially in a physically-inclined society. Is there a parallel there with wizards? Maybe? I'm not sure. They're not better at fighting than a normal human, but they're not worse either.

Anonymouswizard
2016-06-01, 06:12 AM
I agree that it doesn't make sense, but it could. I have a feeling that it might be to justify whatever tech level the setting is currently at, rather than utility magitech wonders, although your idea of 'making some characters have to hide their powers' also sounds likely. To be honest, I'm surprised that Warlocks aren't discriminated against as well, in a 'well you can throw fire so obviously you aren't good for anything other than being on the front lines' way. Thinking about it would make a lot more sense if all magic users were forced into some kind of role based on their magic, in a 'well you were given this power so obviously you're supposed to use it to help people' fashion.

However, I'm going to take the current idea and run with it to try and come up with something plausible. As far as I can tell the core idea about their magic is 'useful but unnecessary'. I'm going to add something to it, that the magic also reduces the value of skill. Take a society where, for one reason or another (my first thought was religion, but it can also just be tradition) having skill at something is highly valued. Warlocks also require military training and some skill at tactics in order to use their powers effectively, whereas wizards are just able to build a wall or create a weapon without having any actual skill (whether or not this is true is another matter). It goes against everything that builds society, how would the world function if skill was not respected and required!?

Dawgmoah
2016-06-01, 06:35 AM
Last time I played a wizard in a 3.5 game I went in knowing the class was going to be "nerfed" to an extent. Three months into the game, reaching a level where magic can be fun and not just relying on a crossbow to stay alive, the real limitations came into effect. The fellow running the game literally stopped almost every aspect of spell use for a wizard and then watered down even the spells he did allow. For example: Scholar's Touch. For some unknown reason it would not work on any book I tried it on. Why was it allowed in the first place then? Even Sleep; the area of effect made no sense and changed depending on the whim of the dm. After the last game in which I was criticized for killing a band of attacking monsters from a distance I just bowed out the game. Miss the character: don't miss the drama and nerfing.

Lalliman
2016-06-01, 06:39 AM
Last time I played a wizard in a 3.5 game I went in knowing the class was going to be "nerfed" to an extent.
Although I enjoy stories of bad DMing (makes me feel better about myself I guess), I don't think you properly read my question.

Dawgmoah
2016-06-01, 06:49 AM
Although I enjoy stories of bad DMing (makes me feel better about myself I guess), I don't think you properly read my question.

Sorry, I saw something glittering in the distance that distracted me during that post.

No, that situation does not make sense to me. People in general will turn their back on knowing how things are made cheaper or more efficiently. To say that a blacksmith is discovered using magic would lose their customers is wrong in my opinion. Like saying people will not buy brand-X in real life because it is manufactured with slave labor in a third world country. And, also my opinion, if magic is frowned on so bad then the other types of magic should fall under the same ban perhaps? Now if a special group used some rationalization they were using "magic to fight magic" then maybe.

Perhaps he has some plot surprise hanging on this question?

goto124
2016-06-01, 06:56 AM
Perhaps society only sees those murderhobo wizard adventurers who throw fireballs and lightning everywhere, destroying towns and killing citizens wherever they go? So all wizards get tarred with the same brush? Similar incidents IRL.

Maybe society lumps wizards with warlocks, treating them as 'making contracts with demons'?

Or they just think of wizards as humans messing with things that should stay in the hands of the gods? Clerics and paladins are treated well, but not wizards or any other spellcaster.

Florian
2016-06-01, 07:04 AM
Itīs probably the inverse situation to what we have in real life:
The hands-on people gain praise because their "work" can directly evaluated, the pure academics are seen as a bit dubious, because theyīve squandered so many years on studying that could already have been to productive use elsewhere and now could, at some vague point in the future, turn out to produce anything of worth by themselves.

Actually, reminds me a bit about it was handled in many of the former soviet states.

Jormengand
2016-06-01, 07:06 AM
Come to think of it, Trianna, the sorceress from Inheritance, gets annoyed when Eragon asks her to use her magic to make lace to boost their economy by having something to sell, because her sorceress magic is based on binding spirits and stuff to do her bidding, which seems a little bit silly when you're using it to make lace. Similarly, one might feel as though binding the immortal spirits of such-and-such to bring damnation and ruin on one's enemies makes sense, but forcing some spirits into helping you make a really cool sword isn't okay. It depends on how the magic actually works (part of the reason that Eragon doesn't see the issue is that his Rider magic is based on conservation-of-energy stuff that almost makes sense and doesn't involve screwing with spirits to make stuff).

GrayDeath
2016-06-01, 08:11 AM
His Explanation does not make sense.

However the concept of "discriminating" the Swiss Army Knife of magic users does.

I ahve created such a setting myself.


In this setting there is an almost continent wide Inquisitional order that, aside from the Free City (which houses the onl
y Academy for Wizards and a cetnral, effectively isolated and hence unknown little shred of a former empire hunts down and kills wizards.

Why?

lets looka t the other Magic users there are:

Cleric/Paladinalikes: BLessed by the Gods, you dont want to anger the Gods, so even "evil" (no D&D Cosmology/System) ones are treated with respect and following strict laws of when and where interference is allowed.

Sorcerer/Warlockkalikes (in my setting all they can do is damage/Curse stuff): So, they have an easy way of killing people. So what? There are maybe 350 of them to 50000 of the Inquisitions rmy. They are a nuisance at worst.

But Wizards? Wizards can do just about EVERYTHING. Its impossible to say what happenstance was a Wizards subtle spell, or if a few of them band together and you have tof ace them its equally impossible to prepare.
Wizards are dangerous because the threaten the nice, orderly ...order of things.
Also they can replicate skilled masterworkers results and thereby ruin economies!

BURNT HEM WITH FIRE!

In that respect it makes sense, me thinks. :smallcool:

AMFV
2016-06-01, 08:37 AM
Itīs probably the inverse situation to what we have in real life:
The hands-on people gain praise because their "work" can directly evaluated, the pure academics are seen as a bit dubious, because theyīve squandered so many years on studying that could already have been to productive use elsewhere and now could, at some vague point in the future, turn out to produce anything of worth by themselves.

Actually, reminds me a bit about it was handled in many of the former soviet states.

I don't know, in real life usually white collar workers are thought of more highly than blue collar workers. Although that may vary by location. But certainly in most of the West that's the case. Although I would note that Academics are kind of a special fringe case.

Florian
2016-06-01, 08:57 AM
I don't know, in real life usually white collar workers are thought of more highly than blue collar workers. Although that may vary by location. But certainly in most of the West that's the case. Although I would note that Academics are kind of a special fringe case.

With all the "education inflation" going on in western Europe, thatīs on the verge to change. The blue collar workers still have strong unions going while the white collar workers are pretty much adrift because thereīre way more than ever needed.

That leads us back to the setting wen discussing. I can see some people grouping together and do their thing, really good, and then thereīre some Wizard that, yes, wield individual power but donīt have a standing as an overall group.

AMFV
2016-06-01, 09:08 AM
In any case, back to the original topic. Certainly people have been ostracized and made into outcasts because of their professions. There are many professions that are thought of as useful, but the people that do them are thought of extremely negatively. Currently you don't have much forcing people to live outside the city or that sort of thing. But that wasn't uncommon in the past. There were professions where it would be difficult to find housing in certain areas. So it's not entirely unreasonable that this would be the case here.

And as we've mentioned. Prejudice doesn't need to make sense, in fact the entire reason it's prejudice is primarily that it doesn't.

Leon
2016-06-01, 09:08 AM
Does it really matter. This person is creating what they want, let it be.

Lalliman
2016-06-01, 10:04 AM
Does it really matter. This person is creating what they want, let it be.
NO FUN WILL BE HAD ON MY WATCH!

No but seriously, it's sort of a collaborative project. I call it his setting because he brings in many of the ideas and I help to refine them. If I had no stake in this, I wouldn't have made a thread about it.

Segev
2016-06-01, 11:22 AM
So.. Warlocks are okay because they kill their opponents with cool special effects, but wizards are shunned because they just make other people's lives easier?

I'm going to reference A Song of Ice and Fire, but the attitude is fairly representative of real-world warrior-centric cultures: the Ironborn view farmers as weak and worthless, and anybody who actually MAKES something as having somehow acquired it illegitimately, and it being of lesser value than if they TOOK it by force from somebody else.

This is nonsense from a truly logical standpoint: without the creators, the thing would not exist at all; the takers have done nothing useful. But from a psychological standpoint...it legitimizes and glorifies the actions of the thieves and tyrants who use and abuse power to take what they want without actually contributing anything. Not only are they not harmful, they're BETTER than everybody else. And since those weak and pathetic farmers and smiths and the like are showing their weakness by making things rather than TAKING them (the way real, worthy men and women do), they deserve the abuse and theft and rape and pillaging. And slavery, if the "real men" decide they want to enslave them.


This could be what's applied here: "Bah, wizards MAKE things with magic. Everybody knows that real strength is in destructive power. Wizards are worthless and deserving of scorn. Now get back to work making stuff so I can take it from you."


Honestly, presented with this setting, I'd play a wizard who lived up the "weak and indolent" image, but used his magic to enrich himself and to undermine his foes. So he can't kill them or curse them? Betcha his creations can. You want to bully him? His summoned minions may have a thing or two to say about that. As might his magical traps. Sure, he can't HURT you with FIRE, but the warriors and warlocks who work for him have way better stuff than you do, and don't want to risk their gravy train by making him give stuff to others who treat him better.

Takewo
2016-06-01, 11:53 AM
Women can make new humans. Only women can make new humans.

Last time I checked, you needed both a male and a female human in order to produce a new human unit.


I agree that it doesn't make sense, but it could. I have a feeling that it might be to justify whatever tech level the setting is currently at, rather than utility magitech wonders, although your idea of 'making some characters have to hide their powers' also sounds likely. To be honest, I'm surprised that Warlocks aren't discriminated against as well, in a 'well you can throw fire so obviously you aren't good for anything other than being on the front lines' way. Thinking about it would make a lot more sense if all magic users were forced into some kind of role based on their magic, in a 'well you were given this power so obviously you're supposed to use it to help people' fashion.

However, I'm going to take the current idea and run with it to try and come up with something plausible. As far as I can tell the core idea about their magic is 'useful but unnecessary'. I'm going to add something to it, that the magic also reduces the value of skill. Take a society where, for one reason or another (my first thought was religion, but it can also just be tradition) having skill at something is highly valued. Warlocks also require military training and some skill at tactics in order to use their powers effectively, whereas wizards are just able to build a wall or create a weapon without having any actual skill (whether or not this is true is another matter). It goes against everything that builds society, how would the world function if skill was not respected and required!?

I completely agree with this.

The thing that seems most weird to me is that common folk know the difference between the four types of magic. You would expect uneducated people to see everything as the same sort of stuff. The only reasonable thing that I can think of (which doesn't mean that it's the only one that exists) is that someone has been making very strong propaganda against wizards. There could be some sort of tradition thingie or whatever that maybe someone want to put the people against wizards for some reason, and therefore manipulated the common people into believing that they are bad. But, again, I suppose that this should make them outcast any magic user, unless, of course, there is something very visible about them (like, say, wizards wear a pointy blue hat with stars sewn).

InvisibleBison
2016-06-01, 12:12 PM
The thing that seems most weird to me is that common folk know the difference between the four types of magic. You would expect uneducated people to see everything as the same sort of stuff.

It would make sense if magic was very common. If one-tenth the population was some sort of mage, almost everyone would know, or at least know of, several different kinds of mages.

Leon
2016-06-01, 12:29 PM
NO FUN WILL BE HAD ON MY WATCH!

No but seriously, it's sort of a collaborative project. I call it his setting because he brings in many of the ideas and I help to refine them. If I had no stake in this, I wouldn't have made a thread about it.

Well if its a collaborative thing then you should sort it out between your selves anyway. All too often on here ive seen examples of "a DM is doing this or has ruled this and the OP needs the backing of a forum to sway unto their own way of thinking"

JeenLeen
2016-06-01, 01:05 PM
I agree with others that discrimination against wizards could make sense, but it would need a certain cultural or historical perspective.

In old World of Darkness Mage: Middle Ages, the Valdermen (Norse mages) are disrespected because magic is considered women's work. Real men are warriors, so men who become mages are, although valued for their power, looked down upon and not respected.
I'm not recommending you add sexism to your setting and use something like women's work as justification, but perhaps that wizards do stuff any commoner can do is part of the scorn. Sure, teleportation is more useful, but is it any different than driving a cart?
(Okay. I don't buy that, but it could be part of the justification folk use to look down upon wizards.)

It could be interesting to have some society where wizards are respected craftsmen and warlocks/witches are shunned or killed as dangerous. ...probably far away from the lauding-warlock place lest they get wiped out by warlocks. But I could see a nation that generally interacts via ships. They have great ships and wealthy merchants. The nation just hides that its source and its nobles are wizards.

2D8HP
2016-06-01, 02:14 PM
Plumbing isn't a job that everyone can do. It's difficult, smelly, hard physical labor. Plumbing is just as vital to our modern world as teleportation might be to another (I would argue drastically more so). Plumbing has saved more lives than I would imagine we have with teleportation (certainly FAR FAR more than you would save with magical walls). People still look down on plumbers, in many places.

My point is that discrimination is not based on utility at all. It's not necessarily a reasonable stance. After all, I could call people who go went to different colleges slurs, and imply that they're worse people because of sports rivalries, and that's not really related to anything.As a plumber, Thank you!
But as someone who brought a "fighter" PC to DunDraCon in 1980, while everyone else in the party had "Magic User" PC's, I still say what I said at age 12, WIZARDS ARE JERKS!
:smallwink:

GrayDeath
2016-06-01, 02:27 PM
Ah, but not all jerks are necessarily WIzards! :belkar:

Mordar
2016-06-01, 03:48 PM
As a plumber, Thank you!
But as someone who brought a "fighter" PC to DunDraCon in 1980, while everyone else in the party had "Magic User" PC's, I still say what I said at age 12, WIZARDS ARE JERKS!
:smallwink:

I often wonder if that is a paradigm shift...were PC wizards ("Magic Users") in the days of AD&D jerks too? Would the people who only play Wizards in 3.x/PF only play Magic Users in AD&D? And would *anyone* play a Magic User/Wizard if they used magic like Gandalf or other such "advisory" characters of literature?*

- M

* - Is affixing a glowing crystal to a staff a Light spell? :smallsmile:

AMFV
2016-06-01, 04:00 PM
I often wonder if that is a paradigm shift...were PC wizards ("Magic Users") in the days of AD&D jerks too? Would the people who only play Wizards in 3.x/PF only play Magic Users in AD&D? And would *anyone* play a Magic User/Wizard if they used magic like Gandalf or other such "advisory" characters of literature?*

- M

* - Is affixing a glowing crystal to a staff a Light spell? :smallsmile:

Gandalf used a metric crapton more magic in the books than he did in the movies. He made himself huge to scare wolves off, set a huge ring of trees ablaze with fire. Helped Elrond flood the river, engaged in a battle of lightning and fire that could be seen for miles away. Locked a door with a spell. Resisted a spell to try to unlock the door. And that's only on rereading the first book. I hadn't noticed before that since I hadn't read the books after I'd seen the movies for a while, but they definitely toned down Gandalf's magic, not up, for the movies.

Edit: Oh, and killed Goblins with a fireball, in the previous book. Also made his voice loud enough that people in three different armies could hear him from a distance (not so impressive, but a lot more impressive than the light).

Anonymouswizard
2016-06-01, 04:29 PM
WIZARDS ARE JERKS!
:smallwink:

Well of course, they still haven't a second splatbook for 5e, complete jerks... oh, wait, you meant PC wizards.

Aeson
2016-06-01, 04:58 PM
From the explanation provided in the spoiler, it sounds like it's being rationalized by perceived strength. You threaten a warlock, and you get a fireball in the face. You threaten a witch, and you get cursed. You threaten a cleric, and suddenly you're faced with this guy who shrugs off your blows as though you were hitting him with a feather. You threaten a wizard, and ... what? He teleports away? Conjures up a wall to keep you away from him? Cowardly weakling.

There's also the degree to which an effect is obvious. A guy who throws a fireball in the right spot could wipe out an entire cluster of enemies on his own. A guy who causes an entire squad to suddenly become violently ill in the middle of charging your lines does more or less the same thing that the guy who throws fireballs does, in a similarly obvious way. A guy who causes entire flights of arrows to fall harmlessly from the sky or causes those fireballs exploding around you to cause no harm to anyone nearby protects you in a very obvious way. A guy who makes your sword hold its edge 10% longer, prevents your armor from rusting, makes your equipment 10% lighter and more durable? Makes a contribution to the army that may well be just as or more important than the contribution of the other three guys, but makes his contribution in a way which is much less visible and as a result may be perceived as not pulling his weight, and also makes his contribution in a way that is difficult to distinguish from simply getting higher-quality equipment.

There's also the "machinery (or in this case magic) makes people lazy" angle. If I just magic up a camp at the end of a day's march, or if I spend less time maintaining my equipment because it's been magically-enhanced to be more durable, or if I can teleport places instead of walking/riding/driving there, it can create an impression that I'm not as hard-working as the people who have to manually set up camp, spend more time maintaining their equipment, or walk/ride/drive somewhere rather than teleporting. Even if I work just as hard as everyone else, it may create the impression that I have it easy, which can breed resentment. If warlocks, witches, and clerics cannot do these things but wizards can, and the general populace (believes it) can distinguish between the four types of spellcaster, then prejudice against wizards is justifiable on the grounds of them being obvious targets of resentment. After all, you spent all day trimming your hedges and making your garden look nice. All I had to do was wave my hand and all of a sudden my yard looked better than yours did after you spent a hard day working on it.

Then there's the fraud angle, which I would use as a rationalization for the blacksmith example. If the magic involved in enhancing the quality of a product can produce an increase in apparent quality that doesn't last as long as the item itself does, or if an item which is magically enhanced to a given level of quality does not last as long as an item which is inherently of that level of quality, you may also see low-quality magically-enhanced objects being passed off as high-quality objects of the same type, which gives a bad reputation to those who use magic to enhance objects regardless of whether or not those people do so to defraud a customer.

You can also consider whether or not the people who have the skill to create high-quality objects without the aid of magic have a vested interest in at least creating and maintaining the perception that magically-enhanced objects are not as good as objects of the same quality whose quality is due solely to the skill of the craftsman and the quality of the materials that went into making the item whether or not this is objectively true, especially if there is an economic advantage to producing high-quality goods by magically enhancing low-quality goods rather than getting skilled craftsmen to create high-quality goods in the first place. You see something similar to this in the real world with brand-name and generic products; the generic products may be as good as or better than the brand-name products (or even the same product under a different label), but the product with the brand name is often perceived as being better than the one without it. You can also see something like this with campaigns encouraging buying or boycotting products on the basis of country of origin, or with products which make a point of advertising their country of origin (or at least a specific country that they can claim to be from without getting too far into the grey area between advertising that is true from a certain point of view and advertising that is simply false; an example which might qualify as such is a box of earplugs which has the label "assembled" in the USA, with the earplugs being simple foam plugs which are not individually packaged or paired in any way but instead are loose inside of the box).

Slipperychicken
2016-06-01, 08:13 PM
I'd want to make it more like a conspiracy theory sort of deal. People think wizards control everything from the shadows, and that wizards are responsible for bad harvest seasons and unexplained fires. The status a court wizard holds, and the influence they might have with leaders, could help create that perception.

Also, I'd have it be partly resentment over how well-paid wizards are in comparison to other casters, considering the demand for their work. Some of them could be kind of like sleazy auto mechanics, bleeding people dry over every wagon wheel they cast repair on, claiming a lot of expenses the customer can't really argue with unless he spent 10 years getting a PhD in magical studies. Same deal for teleporters hiking up rates during peak hours, or construction wizards doing the usual construction-related shenanigans.


So it wouldn't be so much "you are a wizard and therefore less than garbage, now kiss my feet or I'll have the guard kill you", it would be more like how people view lawyers, politicians, and car-salesmen IRL. You hate them, but you can't get rid of them.

Mechalich
2016-06-01, 08:31 PM
Wizards as described here are a group of isolated individuals with cultural variation (the culture in this case being study of magic) who practice a trade that other people aren't able to practice (by virtue of not being students of the esoteric practice of wizardry) that just happens to provide considerable economic utility.

You what this situation most resembles: Jews in Europe in the Middle Ages. Did they face prejudice: oh god yes.

The big difference is that, instead of being somewhat richer than the average member of the limited Middle Ages middle class due to the ability to lend money and get around other Catholic proscriptions, fantasy wizards are likely to be so rich as to beggar the gods via the benefits of D&D utility spells and therefore will potentially have the capability to rule the world through economic dominance in spite of everyone hating their guts - because when the cabal of wizards demands half your treasury to teleport your army so you can stop the barbarian horde from overrunning your kingdom, you have to pay up or loss the entire treasury anyway. Prejudice against people who are vastly more powerful than you (and the fact that wizards in this situation don't have direct attacks is of little consequence) is weird and doesn't have good real-world analogues.

Cluedrew
2016-06-01, 09:42 PM
A bunch of people have hinted or said this but I would like to highlight this point: It depends entirely on the society doing the discriminating.

What do they value? This one has been covered really well but it can really change how valid an explanation is. Do they value straightforwardness? Are regular crafters highly regarded and so on.

Do they benefit from this? Because if they do, people will stretch logic really far, well past its breaking point. "We need cheap labour." "Well people with dark skin are inherently inferior." If this applies than the above will not really have to make sense. Again this has been covered.

How long has it been going on? Because if it has been going on long enough, unless there are some very immediate reasons to stop (or perhaps just a very soft reason to continue) it will because that it what people believe. Actually if this goes far enough than maybe the Blacksmith hides that he is a wizard not because he would lose customers, but because he is ashamed of it. If it is deep seated enough it can happen. One story I remember (but could not confirm) is that single sex education sees girls to better in math and science (the more masculine subjects) and boys to better in English and... I forget what the other example of the feminine subject was. But I think it still makes the point.

GorinichSerpant
2016-06-02, 12:05 AM
Wizards as described here are a group of isolated individuals with cultural variation (the culture in this case being study of magic) who practice a trade that other people aren't able to practice (by virtue of not being students of the esoteric practice of wizardry) that just happens to provide considerable economic utility.

You what this situation most resembles: Jews in Europe in the Middle Ages. Did they face prejudice: oh god yes.

The big difference is that, instead of being somewhat richer than the average member of the limited Middle Ages middle class due to the ability to lend money and get around other Catholic proscriptions, fantasy wizards are likely to be so rich as to beggar the gods via the benefits of D&D utility spells and therefore will potentially have the capability to rule the world through economic dominance in spite of everyone hating their guts - because when the cabal of wizards demands half your treasury to teleport your army so you can stop the barbarian horde from overrunning your kingdom, you have to pay up or loss the entire treasury anyway. Prejudice against people who are vastly more powerful than you (and the fact that wizards in this situation don't have direct attacks is of little consequence) is weird and doesn't have good real-world analogues.

As mentioned above there are politicians and such. Sure they don't have the power of wizards, but no one in our setting does and the power disparity is a large. In many places it's assumed that every politician is a dirty lying crook by definition.

Liquor Box
2016-06-02, 02:31 AM
I reckon its fine.

I think it makes reasonable sense. There is prejudice against magic, but warlock's magic is flashy and perceived (rightly or wrongly) as powerful enough to overcome that prejudice.

Even if it didn't make sense that wouldn't matter. Lots of attitudes people hold in real life don't make much sense. If everything made perfect sense it wouldn't be very realistic.

Segev
2016-06-02, 01:55 PM
Wizards as described here are a group of isolated individuals with cultural variation (the culture in this case being study of magic) who practice a trade that other people aren't able to practice (by virtue of not being students of the esoteric practice of wizardry) that just happens to provide considerable economic utility.

You what this situation most resembles: Jews in Europe in the Middle Ages. Did they face prejudice: oh god yes.

The big difference is that, instead of being somewhat richer than the average member of the limited Middle Ages middle class due to the ability to lend money and get around other Catholic proscriptions, fantasy wizards are likely to be so rich as to beggar the gods via the benefits of D&D utility spells and therefore will potentially have the capability to rule the world through economic dominance in spite of everyone hating their guts - because when the cabal of wizards demands half your treasury to teleport your army so you can stop the barbarian horde from overrunning your kingdom, you have to pay up or loss the entire treasury anyway. Prejudice against people who are vastly more powerful than you (and the fact that wizards in this situation don't have direct attacks is of little consequence) is weird and doesn't have good real-world analogues.
Compare, maybe, to the Pilots' Guild in the Dune universe: mysterious, powerful, indispensable, and rich, but isolated and hated as much as feared.

And not all of them are members. But they all carry the stigma. And, people being people, they love to go after the "safe target." Feign fear to justify your fearless bullying. But that blacksmith wizard? Obviously, he's a greedy jerk like all the others, and obviously, he's lording it over you. Mocking you with his power by hiding it. Or by flaunting it. He isn't a big deal, but he acts like it. But he's too weak and cowardly to act like he WOULD, and so he obviously is up to nefarious things. After all, he's not honest about his hostility the way a warlock is. If a warlock's being a jerk, at least you know it. How do you know the blacksmith-wizard IS NOT being a jerk in a thousand subtle ways?

Punish him for all the things he probably is doing! Unless he gets the protection of the Guild (and the attendant isolation and mystery), he's open season.

And, of course, you'd totally stand up to the Guild that way, too. But, um...er...they're not here. And...um...sure, they were here last week, but....uh....well, they were properly polite, and kept to themselves, or something. Yeah.

Lvl 2 Expert
2016-06-02, 02:17 PM
So they're unpatriotic, not using their powers to defend the motherland, they keep their identities a secret like they have something to hide and when they finally at least do something they act like a lazy bastard and take the easy way out? I already hate the fukkin wizzers. I bet they steal a lot too. Why else would they know illusion or teleportation spells?

Segev
2016-06-02, 03:13 PM
So they're unpatriotic, not using their powers to defend the motherland, they keep their identities a secret like they have something to hide and when they finally at least do something they act like a lazy bastard and take the easy way out? I already hate the fukkin wizzers. I bet they steal a lot too. Why else would they know illusion or teleportation spells?

Don't forget that they're cowardly and weak. When discovered, they snivel and whine, or they try to bluster. Their best argument is "I won't do my fair share if you're mean to me!" How selfish of them!

A warlock at least will stand up for himself right and proper, you know?

2D8HP
2016-06-02, 03:39 PM
So they're unpatriotic, not using their powers to defend the motherland, they keep their identities a secret like they have something to hide and when they finally at least do something they act like a lazy bastard and take the easy way out? I already hate the fukkin wizzers. I bet they steal a lot too. Why else would they know illusion or teleportation spells?
Don't forget that they're cowardly and weak. When discovered, they snivel and whine, or they try to bluster. Their best argument is "I won't do my fair share if you're mean to me!" How selfish of them!

A warlock at least will stand up for himself right and proper, you know?All that smug booklearnin'! Burning Times ahead! I mean when have wizards really helped? I mean apart from that one time......

Jay R
2016-06-02, 04:19 PM
Is it me, or is that nonsense?

Yes, prejudice is nonsense. Always has been, always will be.

But fighters having prejudice against people who don't fight is no different from jocks looking down on D&D players. It's nonsense, but it's believable nonsense.

Lalliman
2016-06-03, 12:34 AM
Thanks for the contributions everyone. My friend has read the thread as well and found some inspiration in your suggestions. We'll be working on making this aspect of the setting work in a believable manner.

TeChameleon
2016-06-03, 03:44 AM
Erm... I couldn't resist adding... unless creative uses of teleportation are heavily nerfed, teleporting can be one of the most horrific murder-powers out there.

There are a number of ways to do it, with the simplest summation I can come up with being:

1) Teleporting bits of your foe away without the rest of them. "Oh, I'm worthless scum and deserved the beating I just got? Hope you didn't have any future plans that involved your liver, since it's in deep space now.", or just teleporting every bit of them to a different place than every other bit of them.
2) Teleporting foes into hostile environments (i.e. the sun, deep space, an active volcano, the bottom of the ocean, a long ways up in the air with no support, standing in front of a stampede, stuck into a wall...).
3) Teleporting nasty things onto/into foes (water etc. into lungs, pebbles into brains, large chunks of landscape into the stratosphere directly above whatever you want gone, solar plasma into the middle of the enemy army, a pinhole portal to the bottom of the ocean, or even just a grenade into the enemy commander's tent).

For that matter, if you can't cause death on a mass scale with invisible barriers or even simple illusions, it really doesn't feel like you're trying :smalltongue:

goto124
2016-06-03, 04:02 AM
There's something called 'telefrag (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cev4HtEWIAAPtLK.jpg)'.

Xuc Xac
2016-06-03, 12:03 PM
In a very class conscious society, I could see wizards being considered lower class than the other casters. In Victorian Britain, doctors were well-respected gentlemen of learning as long as they didn't charge for their services. Visible means of income were frowned upon as vulgar by the upper class. You were expected to just have money, not make money (of course, they got paid, but they didn't bill their clients; their upper class clients just knew that it was proper to give them a large "gift" of cash as thanks for any help). Surgeons, on the contrary, were seen as lower class because they worked with their hands like a tradesman.

You could have something similar here. Wizards just do utilitarian, working class stuff: mending broken pots like a tinker, transporting goods like a teamster, or delivering messages like a messenger. The others are more cerebral or martial. If all four casters were in the military, wizards would be non-commissioned or enlisted while the others would all be commissioned officers, and thus upper class rather than working class. Common people wouldn't look down on them, but they wouldn't defer to them as their "betters" like they would for the others. The upper classes would look down on them. You wouldn't see any wizards at a high society social function unless they were working there as servants.

Enixon
2016-06-04, 11:38 AM
Women can make new humans. Only women can make new humans.

How do men treat women?



In innumerable different ways depending on the temperment and values of the specific man involved? :smallconfused: