Golem Logistics

[tadkins]

I'm in the middle of a bit of world building for a potential future game and would love some thoughts on this.

In this world, I have a nation, one of many, located in the frozen northern mountains called Shiron. In a subversion of the typical "hardy northern barbarian" trope, the nation is populated by shy and reserved bookish types, founded on a basis of knowledge and arcane power. The backstory is that the original founders were those considered too "weak" to be use to the Itharan Empire (the largest and most powerful nation in this world), were rounded up and sent on a special "mission" to the northern lands to prove themselves. In truth, they were sent up there to die to a terrible beast that ruled those lands, a massive cryohydra. Shinor, the goddess of winter and magic, took pity on these doomed folks. She took them under her wing and introduced magic and knowledge to these wayward people, teaching that strength does not always come from blade or faith, but that the mind can be an equally powerful tool. The people built their new nation in the north, and utilized their magical gifts to destroy the beast that terrorized it. From atop the great crystalline spires and citadels of their nation, they established themselves as the great arcane masters of the world.

The way I see it, a kingdom that prides itself on knowledge and peace would not produce too many warriors among them. The few who do exhibit martial tendencies are offered positions and training at the Talon Gate garrison, the single guarded entrance to the northern lands. I figure, for a nation of arcane masters, golems would be a natural go-to for defensive units. I know that they can be pretty expensive for single characters to build, in terms of time, money and feat investment. If an entire nation came together to research a method of mass-production for ice golems however, do you think it could be made more feasible?

[Honest Tiefling]

I think you could fudge it with two ideas:

Firstly, Shinor is helping them. She could even make ice/water/air/whatever elementals (instead of earth elementals) bind themselves to make it even easier to create them.

Secondly, how long has this place existed? If hundreds of years, they could just have very ancient golems on the front lines and keep newer, better, models closer to home. If they let Archimagister Winter take care of most invading forces, retreat and wait for the enemy to die is a pretty good tactic. Especially if it is so cold you need spells to survive.

Alternatively, the society produced assassins because not everyone is on board with the peace idea, and it might be doable, depending on how magically advanced they are, to simply rely on magical assassins to get rid of the competent leaders and let infighting do the rest. Or they could use the Ice Assassin spell which seems pretty thematic here, just saying.

[Gildedragon]

Regarding the crafting
Would Artificers be a THING over yonder in the frozen lands? If so that works for reducing costs and times
Would collaborative crafting to raise CL be a thing?
Artifacts or special magical items to emulate the craft construct feat?


Second: there exist ice golems in frostburn
Runic and shield guardians could be made from blue-ice
As could be Iron Golems

Summoning Ice or Frost elementals would be a handy way to go about things

As a DM maybe create an ice themed martial discipline that has a number of Su abilities
Or a gish like the suel arcanamach

[Tvtyrant]

Golems are a great investment over time. Each year that it survives it pays off more of its initial cost, so one that lasts thousands of years makes a tremendous amount of money back in soldier wages.

Say you spend 150,000 gp as a nation to make a black gargant, it is as strong as a level 18 character. Now you are immune to most armies, so you can cut back on troops and pay it off in a few years.

[tadkins]

Firstly, Shinor is helping them. She could even make ice/water/air/whatever elementals (instead of earth elementals) bind themselves to make it even easier to create them.

I like this idea. Elemental "emissaries" willingly binding themselves into golem armor to help defend her children.


Secondly, how long has this place existed? If hundreds of years, they could just have very ancient golems on the front lines and keep newer, better, models closer to home. If they let Archimagister Winter take care of most invading forces, retreat and wait for the enemy to die is a pretty good tactic. Especially if it is so cold you need spells to survive.

Compared to all the other nations in the world, it would be the youngest one. The campaign would probably take place with it existing for a couple hundred years. Before their arrival, the northern mountains were a vast, dangerous, untamed wilderness where few wanted to go.

Geographically, I was thinking that the nation's first line of defense would be the great Talon Gate, that overlooks the southern lands below it. That's where the majority of the nation's defense would be located, including the possible golem army. Past the gate would be a stretch of wilderness through a mountain pass, with the majority of the populace nestled in the back, in villages and cities throughout various mountain enclaves. Your idea could work pretty well; if the gate was overtaken, the magisters could step in, freezing the environment of the pass to intolerable levels and letting invaders succumb to the cold and to get picked off by various wilderness life.


Alternatively, the society produced assassins because not everyone is on board with the peace idea, and it might be doable, depending on how magically advanced they are, to simply rely on magical assassins to get rid of the competent leaders and let infighting do the rest. Or they could use the Ice Assassin spell which seems pretty thematic here, just saying.

The idea behind the people of this kingdom is that they are generally meek, peaceful and reserved though. They were essentially founded by nerds and outcasts deemed unfit for the proud and glorious Empire. Even now, they generally just want to keep to themselves to live, work and study in peace. Shiron would be the least warlike of all the nations in this world.

[Deadline]

Well, how many golems do you think they'll need to defend themselves? I mean, a single Iron Golem will likely make a mess of hundreds of troops before it can be brought down, and that's assuming it isn't supported in any way. A dozen or so Golems is a terrifying force to behold. Heck, even if this nation created a couple of Golems each year, the odds are good that they'll be well protected.

And as a much cheaper alternative, there's always Simulacrum of various nasty creatures native to the area. Like that Cryohydra. Assuming they killed it, they should have an ample supply of components needed to churn out several lower-threat copies of it.

Edit - And if you've got any necromancers, every invading enemy army becomes a fresh batch of zombies or skeletons for you.

[Gildedragon]

How does the society feel about Undead-as-repositories-of-knowledge and haunt-shifted-into-armor undead fighters?

[tadkins]

Well, how many golems do you think they'll need to defend themselves? I mean, a single Iron Golem will likely make a mess of hundreds of troops before it can be brought down, and that's assuming it isn't supported in any way. A dozen or so Golems is a terrifying force to behold. Heck, even if this nation created a couple of Golems each year, the odds are good that they'll be well protected.



None of the other nations have chosen to attack Shiron en-masse as a whole, yet, so probably not too many. They've only fought small skirmishes with fringe groups so far.




Edit - And if you've got any necromancers, every invading enemy army becomes a fresh batch of zombies or skeletons for you.


How does the society feel about Undead-as-repositories-of-knowledge and haunt-shifted-into-armor undead fighters?

Undead and necromantic magic aren't really their forte. However, they have one major ally in the world; the nearby kingdom of Shadowgate. They are known as the worshippers of the death god Keroth, and are known for their specialty in necromantic magic and the death-dealing arts. Largely distrusted and maligned by most everyone else for what they believe is a necessary part of nature's cycle, they've been at war with every other major nation in the past. Shadowgate and Shiron share two major things that make them allies; their affinity for magic (though of different schools), and their similar outcast status.

To sum up, while the wizards of Shiron don't utilize undead, they have friends that do. xD

[Toilet Cobra]

How aboooooout...

After centuries of effort, these archmages have broke new ground in golem-crafting. The 'golem' itself is a purely arcane construction- an armature of magic forming a mobile cage around the captive elemental spirit, with the vulnerable parts hidden safely on the ethereal plane. Enemies encounter 'elementals' made of rock, ice, and snow, but in fact this is just the weapon that the arcane golem utilizes. Any solid material may be picked up and puppetted by the spell-golem.

Foes who wish to put the golem down permanently need to do so on the Ethereal plane, though the golems are far from defenseless there. Destroying the physical form that patrols the Prime Material plane only causes the golem to return to its master long enough to report on the destruction of its puppet, before it picks up another 800lbs of snow, compresses it into a vaguely humanoid shape, and heads back out into the wilderness.

Given regular infusions of arcane energy [sacrificed spell slots, say], these golems can patrol forever at a fraction of the cost of similarly-powered stone golems.

[tadkins]

How aboooooout...

After centuries of effort, these archmages have broke new ground in golem-crafting. The 'golem' itself is a purely arcane construction- an armature of magic forming a mobile cage around the captive elemental spirit, with the vulnerable parts hidden safely on the ethereal plane. Enemies encounter 'elementals' made of rock, ice, and snow, but in fact this is just the weapon that the arcane golem utilizes. Any solid material may be picked up and puppetted by the spell-golem.

Foes who wish to put the golem down permanently need to do so on the Ethereal plane, though the golems are far from defenseless there. Destroying the physical form that patrols the Prime Material plane only causes the golem to return to its master long enough to report on the destruction of its puppet, before it picks up another 800lbs of snow, compresses it into a vaguely humanoid shape, and heads back out into the wilderness.

Given regular infusions of arcane energy [sacrificed spell slots, say], these golems can patrol forever at a fraction of the cost of similarly-powered stone golems.

This is a pretty neat idea. Could make for a great boss-type monster for the more sensitive/valuable areas, too. You'd have ice and iron golems protecting the villages and the outer gate. But if they were destroyed and invaders found their way into the inner vaults or libraries, well, that's why there'd be piles of adamantite and mithril waiting at the doors...!

[Tvtyrant]

Do not forget about the genus loci spell, which makes an elder elemental protect an area or object forever.

[tadkins]

Do not forget about the genus loci spell, which makes an elder elemental protect an area or object forever.

That'd work too. A couple of those placed on the Gate would make sense thematically and make an effective defense.

Edit: I suppose at this point a better title for this thread would be "Defensive options for an arcane nation".

[Gildedragon]

Knowledge is power, so even if they don't resort to intelligent undead to preserve their sages and ancestors, there is a spell in Eberron that preserves a corpse for "talk with dead " spells and makes them more verbose and cogent. Create Spirit Idol from ECS

Mythals are an obvious solution
As are walls of illusion and deception. Hardier types range out in the wastes to find any would be invaders and lead them away from the city, pretending to he the hardy barbarians that outsiders would expect
Veils of inclement weather

[tadkins]

Knowledge is power, so even if they don't resort to intelligent undead to preserve their sages and ancestors, there is a spell in Eberron that preserves a corpse for "talk with dead " spells and makes them more verbose and cogent. Create Spirit Idol from ECS



I was toying with the idea of having the dead encased in blocks of ice and placed inside underground frozen tombs, preserving them. The most famous, honored and brilliant minds would be interred in gleaming, impossibly beautiful crystal caverns.

Could definitely work with that.

[Florian]

Actually, why Golems?

Based on the cold frozen north, would´t Simulacrum be the better fit?
That would be funny: Annual competitions to see who´s the best knight or archer, the winners then having the honor to have this years simulacra based on them.

Edit: "We have the honor to announce: This years great defensive army are Bob and Jim! Let´s give a big hand to Bob and Jim!"

[Dragolord]

I was toying with the idea of having the dead encased in blocks of ice and placed inside underground frozen tombs, preserving them. The most famous, honored and brilliant minds would be interred in gleaming, impossibly beautiful crystal caverns.

Could definitely work with that.
If you're thinking about that, why not go the whole hog and have them use ice-based Undying? You could replace the manifest zone requirement with one for very low temperatures, or something.

[tadkins]

Actually, why Golems?

Based on the cold frozen north, would´t Simulacrum be the better fit?
That would be funny: Annual competitions to see who´s the best knight or archer, the winners then having the honor to have this years simulacra based on them.

Edit: "We have the honor to announce: This years great defensive army are Bob and Jim! Let´s give a big hand to Bob and Jim!"

It doesn't have to be golems. At this point I'm entertaining basically any sort of land defense ideas befitting a people who are skilled with magic, but largely detest war and conflict themselves. Golems just seemed the most obvious idea.


If you're thinking about that, why not go the whole hog and have them use ice-based Undying? You could replace the manifest zone requirement with one for very low temperatures, or something.

Sounds interesting. I've never heard of Undying though. Is there an original I can look up?

[Dragolord]

Sounds interesting. I've never heard of Undying though. Is there an original I can look up?

They're from Eberron, so have a look at the ECS. The Aerenal elves use positive energy to turn their most valued and revered dead into Undying, which are essentially undead powered by positive energy, rather than negative. They're sustained by both the faith of their living kin, and the massive Irian manifest zone in the centre of their homeland. They use them as councillors, gods, and, sometimes, as soldiers, although they can't leave Aerenal without large numbers of elves to sustain them. If you refluff it, it's one of the best ways of cheating death without turning yourself into a monster, and I can't help but feel like a whole society of pacifist magical researchers would find some way of doing that.

[Gildedragon]

They're from Eberron, so have a look at the ECS. The Aerenal elves use positive energy to turn their most valued and revered dead into Undying, which are essentially undead powered by positive energy, rather than negative. They're sustained by both the faith of their living kin, and the massive Irian manifest zone in the centre of their homeland. They use them as councillors, gods, and, sometimes, as soldiers, although they can't leave Aerenal without large numbers of elves to sustain them. If you refluff it, it's one of the best ways of cheating death without turning yourself into a monster, and I can't help but feel like a whole society of pacifist magical researchers would find some way of doing that.

You mean Deathless (Undying Court is the religion)
They are also in the BoED too.
One could do Deathless but there's more variety of undead, and unless one fluffs their existence as inherently inimic to life, or inherently evil (both of which one needn't do) undead are great. And adds fluff reasons for the uttercold spells

[Dragolord]

You mean Deathless (Undying Court is the religion)
They are also in the BoED too.
One could do Deathless but there's more variety of undead, and unless one fluffs their existence as inherently inimic to life, or inherently evil (both of which one needn't do) undead are great. And adds fluff reasons for the uttercold spells
Ahh, that's it. Sorry. I must have gotten mixed up, somewhere.

[tadkins]

I do like the idea that the most brilliant minds are preserved in some way, and accessible to those who make the trek into the crystal caverns to converse with them. I could probably use that as a plot hook.

[Honest Tiefling]

I do like the idea that the most brilliant minds are preserved in some way, and accessible to those who make the trek into the crystal caverns to converse with them. I could probably use that as a plot hook.

Why would you put your advisors and most brilliant minds so far away that you can't reach them in an emergency, also known as the only time you'd make this trek?

[tadkins]

Why would you put your advisors and most brilliant minds so far away that you can't reach them in an emergency, also known as the only time you'd make this trek?

Probably for the same reasons you wouldn't put your family's crypt in your backyard, and use one of their coffins as a coffee table. xD

[Gildedragon]

Alternative: mind transfer into gems, gems set into crown or massive candelabra, the hivemind can be accessed via a crown or the like. The spirits hold their own Senate regarding questions that affect the nation.

[LTwerewolf]

A kingdom that prides itself in peace isn't likely to have a very small military. The opposite in fact. They would need a far superior force (whether physically, magically, or a combination) to deter and would-be invaders to keep things peaceful. Those unable to defend themselves don't tend to last very long. They would also be perfectly fine with shows of overwhelming force, to further deter any attackers. Battles in history weren't particularly common, because in order for a battle to happen either 1) one side needs to be trapped or 2) both sides think they can win. If 1) it's less a battle and more a massacre. If 2) then the two sides are relatively equally matched. In any other case, the weaker force will flee. A kingdom that prides themselves on peace tries to make sure every force thinks themselves inferior to theirs. This way, fighting need never happen.

[Gildedragon]

Question: how is the weather in the nation? They could live inside crystal caves inside an ice mountain. To outsiders it just looks like a normal mountain. The jagged rocks don't necessarily look like watch towers, and the passerbys certainly won't realize there are golems resting in the ice beneath their feet

[Honest Tiefling]

Probably for the same reasons you wouldn't put your family's crypt in your backyard, and use one of their coffins as a coffee table. xD

If Grandma was necessary to keep barbarians out of the living room, you'd bet I'd put her remains in as fashionable furniture. The mind transfer thing works better as an alternative in my opinion, because you wouldn't want your super important undead where people could steal, interfere or graffiti them. I bet Great Grandpa is going to be upset if he finds out that your nephew doodled on his corpse.

Also, if I ever have children I need to find a way to put this into my will.

[tadkins]

Alternative: mind transfer into gems, gems set into crown or massive candelabra, the hivemind can be accessed via a crown or the like. The spirits hold their own Senate regarding questions that affect the nation.

Ooh yes, I really like this one. It would also give the country a good reason to elect a single civic leader. They would wear the crown and have access to the knowledge and advice of dozens of past minds.


A kingdom that prides itself in peace isn't likely to have a very small military. The opposite in fact. They would need a far superior force (whether physically, magically, or a combination) to deter and would-be invaders to keep things peaceful. Those unable to defend themselves don't tend to last very long. They would also be perfectly fine with shows of overwhelming force, to further deter any attackers. Battles in history weren't particularly common, because in order for a battle to happen either 1) one side needs to be trapped or 2) both sides think they can win. If 1) it's less a battle and more a massacre. If 2) then the two sides are relatively equally matched. In any other case, the weaker force will flee. A kingdom that prides themselves on peace tries to make sure every force thinks themselves inferior to theirs. This way, fighting need never happen.

I thought about this a bit before. How *would* a nation of peaceful nerds be able to keep themselves safe? They produce few warriors themselves. Those few that prove themselves strong and martially-minded form a small, elite order called the Talon Guard. They would serve as defenders of the gate, protectors of the populace and guides through the wilderness. I imagine most outposts and villages within the country might have one or two Talon Guards serving at a time, while the Gate itself serves as their base of operations.

To deter large invading forces from the other countries though, they would have two other things going for them.

1. The cold environment. I take RL historical inspiration from that part, particularly Germany's failure in regards to Russia during WW2. As the other nations are typically from temperate, or desert environments, none of them would be particularly suited to fighting in the ice. The mages themselves could also pull out stuff like dire winter to make the cold even more intolerable.
2. The supreme magical might of the defenders. While the Talon Guard are few in number, the Shirion mages make sure to keep them well-stocked in magical gear and weaponry. In addition, when large fighting would become necessary, the mages themselves would join in and contribute with environment alteration, summoned aid, buffs...all that good wizard stuff.

I think all that combined would be enough to deter most of the other countries from a large-scale invasion.


Question: how is the weather in the nation? They could live inside crystal caves inside an ice mountain. To outsiders it just looks like a normal mountain. The jagged rocks don't necessarily look like watch towers, and the passerbys certainly won't realize there are golems resting in the ice beneath their feet

It's cold, but by itself some proper clothing is enough to survive in it. The people make use of the caves in some locales, while log cabin villages exist in other parts of it. Closer to the capital you'll find crystalline spires and more lavish looking citadels. Defenses-wise, besides the Gate itself, there are various outposts and watchtowers scattered along the pathways, as much for the travelers in need of rest as it is for defense.


If Grandma was necessary to keep barbarians out of the living room, you'd bet I'd put her remains in as fashionable furniture. The mind transfer thing works better as an alternative in my opinion, because you wouldn't want your super important undead where people could steal, interfere or graffiti them. I bet Great Grandpa is going to be upset if he finds out that your nephew doodled on his corpse.

Also, if I ever have children I need to find a way to put this into my will.

Fair enough. xD

Yup, I do like the mind transfer thing. I think I'd probably go with that. But the people themselves aren't as morbid as to put the bodies of their relatives in their living room. That'd be more a thing for the people of Shadowgate, which in essence, would look like a Tim Burton film.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I think all that combined would be enough to deter most of the other countries from a large-scale invasion.
I would not generally care to invade a country whose population only survived because of literal divine intervention. It just doesn't strike me as profitable :smalltongue:.

As long as they stay out of politics and just peddle magic items to various powers, they'll be fine with a relatively small defence. Diplomacy, backed up with useful, even irreplacable trade, can be very powerful.

[Honest Tiefling]

+1 to the idea of General Winter. I love the idea of mages mucking about with nature to keep their enemies at bay.

Other ideas include:
1.) Marrying leftover nobility to form alliances. Even if they can't score some from many places, intermarrying into that Necronation is a good idea just to keep up the peace. Also depending on the number of people who got sent on the initial mission, unrelated people might really be helpful after a few generations.
2.) Cultivating a fearsome reputation. Hey, you're buddies with the nation that worships death anyway. Why not spread some rumors?
3.) Buffer nation or monsters. Just cultivate some nice orcs or drakes or something and make sure they are very much not inclined to attack your guys.
4.) Don't have stuff other people want. Don't make it known how nice it is where you are.

[Gildedragon]

The talon guard could swear to serve even beyond death. When they die they are made into 2 undead: 1 the ghost created by the oath, the other a skeleton or zombie.

The skeleton is buried in the ice, fully geared, waiting for the command be given for them to emerge from their tombs to protect the nation.

The ghosts serve in shifts, resting in stasis for some time before being called to active duty. They are free to leave service at any point (considering their pending business to be finished) but the prestige of the position and their lifelonger devotion to the nation might have them sticking around for some time (in which case they are shifted into ice bodies)

Or they research a sort of golem that uses a soul as the animating force instead of an elemental
-----

Using the bodies for dire straights regiments makes sense. Everyone leaves a similar stat skeleton, and they are powerful by the horde. Some spellstitching later and the skeletons are entombed with something to call them to duty at some point. That way a) everyone contributes to the nation's defense at some point and b) no space is wasted on graveyards, they are barracks.
More powerful families leave behind undead with better weapons and stronger spells on them.

[tadkins]

I would not generally care to invade a country whose population only survived because of literal divine intervention. It just doesn't strike me as profitable :smalltongue:.

As long as they stay out of politics and just peddle magic items to various powers, they'll be fine with a relatively small defence. Diplomacy, backed up with useful, even irreplacable trade, can be very powerful.

Shiron tries to stay neutral on the political scale, trading in arcane power and knowledge to those who request it. What gets them in trouble more than anything is their relationship with Shadowgate. But they do try to maintain relationships with the other three major nations, as strained as they are at times.


+1 to the idea of General Winter. I love the idea of mages mucking about with nature to keep their enemies at bay.

Other ideas include:
1.) Marrying leftover nobility to form alliances. Even if they can't score some from many places, intermarrying into that Necronation is a good idea just to keep up the peace. Also depending on the number of people who got sent on the initial mission, unrelated people might really be helpful after a few generations.
2.) Cultivating a fearsome reputation. Hey, you're buddies with the nation that worships death anyway. Why not spread some rumors?
3.) Buffer nation or monsters. Just cultivate some nice orcs or drakes or something and make sure they are very much not inclined to attack your guys.
4.) Don't have stuff other people want. Don't make it known how nice it is where you are.

A single large gate, followed by a single pass walled off by impassable mountains, would be a big benefit in this situation. They wouldn't need to concentrate their magic in many places at once in a dire situation.

1. This could happen. There'd already be sort of a "student exchange program" between Shiron and Shadowgate. Marriages wouldn't be unheard of. The other three nations might find it tougher to swallow, but it helps that Shiron would be considered the "least offensive" of them.

2. This is true, but the fear does little to deter most everyone else.
-The Itharan Empire as a whole follows the supreme goddess of the pantheon, Astra, who embodies the glory of the Light. They produce a fair number of clerics, paladins, and knightly orders. They're also as a whole proud, disciplined and vain. They consider Shadowgate to be a dark stain upon the world and work constantly to extinguish it.
-Gavron, the wild land, is a nation based around nature and druidism, known for its kinship with natural life. They too, find Shadowgate, its dark magic, and its population consisting of both the living and the undead to be a foul perversion, with some groups fighting skirmishes with them.
-The Mumbali tribes of the desert, a hardened people of killers and slavers whose patron is a LE god of fire and war, hate pretty much everyone.
So in short, Shadowgate isn't feared too much as a whole. Along with the necromancers, shadow weavers and death clerics, they are known for their potent assassins, so they can incite terror whenever they need to, but that fear tends to quickly pass in favor of another crusade by the other nations.

3. For sure. I figured golems and elementals would be a fair substitute here.

4. True that. Knowledge, magic, and magical items would be their main export, though as they do live in the mountains, they do have a small mining industry as well. But still, no one really wants to put together the force needed to claim it all for themselves.


The talon guard could swear to serve even beyond death. When they die they are made into 2 undead: 1 the ghost created by the oath, the other a skeleton or zombie.

The skeleton is buried in the ice, fully geared, waiting for the command be given for them to emerge from their tombs to protect the nation.

The ghosts serve in shifts, resting in stasis for some time before being called to active duty. They are free to leave service at any point (considering their pending business to be finished) but the prestige of the position and their lifelonger devotion to the nation might have them sticking around for some time (in which case they are shifted into ice bodies)

Or they research a sort of golem that uses a soul as the animating force instead of an elemental
-----

Using the bodies for dire straights regiments makes sense. Everyone leaves a similar stat skeleton, and they are powerful by the horde. Some spellstitching later and the skeletons are entombed with something to call them to duty at some point. That way a) everyone contributes to the nation's defense at some point and b) no space is wasted on graveyards, they are barracks.
More powerful families leave behind undead with better weapons and stronger spells on them.

That seems more like it'd be a final act of desperation than anything else. Shiron doesn't want to consort with the undead in that manner as a whole. The few that do end up becoming necromantically-minded get sent to train at Shadowgate, where they tend to stay afterward.

[Honest Tiefling]

4. True that. Knowledge, magic, and magical items would be their main export, though as they do live in the mountains, they do have a small mining industry as well. But still, no one really wants to put together the force needed to claim it all for themselves.

Sadly for our little nation that could, these are valuable exports. Even if people didn't want to take it by force, they'll try to sneak in to steal it just like what happened with tea and coffee.

It does seem that making the other nations fear you isn't an option. But one would imagine that the Nation of Shiny Armor and those slavers aren't going to get along very well...If push comes to shove, why not have the two fight each other?

'Oh, by the way good sir, I did hear that the Mumbali delegation was very interested in wands of fireball...She told me to keep it quiet, but I was so worried about the safety of your nation I felt it best to reveal it...And reveal our rock-bottom prices on potions of fire resistance!'

Also, what is Shinor's opinion on the other gods? They might not be religious, but most atheists aren't very ice proof either.

...Are these Magic the Gathering nations by the way?

[Gildedragon]

4. True that. Knowledge, magic, and magical items would be their main export, though as they do live in the mountains, they do have a small mining industry as well. But still, no one really wants to put together the force needed to claim it all for themselves.
and ice (and ice related things)
People looooooove their ice
It got shipped from the Great Lakes to London, across the middle east and the Mediterranean basin from the high mountains of Persia and Lebanon. Huge buildings made to house it in the deserts. Ice would be exported in huge warded crates; blue ice beads and gems to cool the lofty... And serve as water harvesters in the desert.
Icewine and ice-fortified spirits (freezing the water off increases the alcohol content).
Furs



That seems more like it'd be a final act of desperation than anything else. Shiron doesn't want to consort with the undead in that manner as a whole. The few that do end up becoming necromantically-minded get sent to train at Shadowgate, where they tend to stay afterward.
Final desperate act that needs foreplanning and isn't a big leap. Esp if they had some sort of prophecy... Or if their friends in Shadowgate suggested it.
A desperate action that is mythified as the Heroes of Shiron rising once more in the nation's hour of need.

[tadkins]

Sadly for our little nation that could, these are valuable exports. Even if people didn't want to take it by force, they'll try to sneak in to steal it just like what happened with tea and coffee.

They could, definitely, and sometimes they're successful. Talk about an uphill battle though, literally, with the mountainous terrain. xD


It does seem that making the other nations fear you isn't an option. But one would imagine that the Nation of Shiny Armor and those slavers aren't going to get along very well...If push comes to shove, why not have the two fight each other?

'Oh, by the way good sir, I did hear that the Mumbali delegation was very interested in wands of fireball...She told me to keep it quiet, but I was so worried about the safety of your nation I felt it best to reveal it...And reveal our rock-bottom prices on potions of fire resistance!'

None of the nations get along either. Probably the one thing that's kept them from banding together to annihilate Shadowgate. Gavron and the Mumbali find Ithara to be too arrogant and self-righteous. Ithara is next-door neighbors with the deserts and are often the target of tribal raids, whom they find brutal savages. Plus, the capital of the Mumbali isn't in fact the desert, it's a lush glade on a section of conquered Gavronian land taken by their strongest tribe. Understandably, Gavron is not too fond of that and they spend a lot of effort trying to uproot them.


Also, what is Shinor's opinion on the other gods? They might not be religious, but most atheists aren't very ice proof either.

Funny enough, most of the gods get along with each other, with the exception of one. Astra (LG) and her brother Keroth (N) are the two greater deities of the pantheon, as much as Ithara tries to bury that fact. Their subordinates are the four intermediate gods of the seasons. Piron (CG) is the lord of spring and the patron of Gavron. Grondath (LE) is the aforementioned lord of summer, flames and war. Mildra (CE), formerly the lady of autumn, became known as the "traitor goddess" after trying to usurp control of the pantheon. She is the patron of plague and decay, and is worshipped by a cult of Shadowgate defectors who make their home in a haunted wood. They adopt the typical cliched "death to all the living" mindset, which also unfairly affects Shadowgate's reputation. Finally there's Shinor (NG) the lady of winter, the "bookworm" of the gods, and the patron of magic and knowledge.

Each nation has its own patron god, though agnostics do exist in this world that don't want to forge direct allegeince to them, it's hard to actually disprove their existence and deny their influence. While the nations generally distrust each other, the gods focus on teaching and building their followers, rather than tearing the others down.


...Are these Magic the Gathering nations by the way?

Admittedly, I did take some inspiration from M:tG. This is my first major attempt to build a world and DM a game out of it, so I wanted to keep some concepts simple. The five nations are definitely color coded for your convenience. xD

[tadkins]

and ice (and ice related things)
People looooooove their ice
It got shipped from the Great Lakes to London, across the middle east and the Mediterranean basin from the high mountains of Persia and Lebanon. Huge buildings made to house it in the deserts. Ice would be exported in huge warded crates; blue ice beads and gems to cool the lofty... And serve as water harvesters in the desert.
Icewine and ice-fortified spirits (freezing the water off increases the alcohol content).
Furs

I was thinking of giving them a set of region-specific crops that would be their focus of farming. One would be a root vegetable that also makes a terrific ice beer. Another would be a type of nut that they make bread out of. Both types would also serve as feed for the livestock they raise for meat and fur. All of which would be suitable to the arctic climate, and would be traded along with their usual exports.

Oh, and ice fishing. Gotta have ice fishing!


Final desperate act that needs foreplanning and isn't a big leap. Esp if they had some sort of prophecy... Or if their friends in Shadowgate suggested it.
A desperate action that is mythified as the Heroes of Shiron rising once more in the nation's hour of need.

What if the mages came together and performed a ritual to directly summon Shinor's favored pet, a mythical cryophoenix possessing tremendous power? It'd be a long, complicated ritual whose pieces are held by the most renowned mages, only to be used as a last resort.

[Honest Tiefling]

1. Sugar beet. This was the primary source of sugar for Europe before sugar cane. It won't make beer, but then again, its not a grain. There is sugar beet liquor, I think.
2. Acorns were an emergency food source, and used in some cuisines to this day. (I am not 100% sure Oaks would grow that far north, but do your players know that?)
3. Rye can be grown in colder climates then some other grains.
4. Mushrooms can be grown underground.
5. Fish is an important source of vitamin D. Your characters probably won't know this, but it might be a cute little detail to add in, especially if the people of Shiron are not pale skinned.
6. Herd animals are a must if there is any grazing to be had. Not only is it thematic, you could have frost mages riding around on reindeer.

However, few of these can grow in arctic wastes. Would the culture have artificially warmer areas either underground or in valleys to provide crops?

[tadkins]

5. Fish is an important source of vitamin D. Your characters probably won't know this, but it might be a cute little detail to add in, especially if the people of Shiron are not pale skinned.

Heck I didn't know this. They wouldn't be too pale though. I did want to introduce little aesthetic choices for each type of people here and there. Pale skin would be more of a Shadowgate trait.


6. Herd animals are a must if there is any grazing to be had. Not only is it thematic, you could have frost mages riding around on reindeer.


I love this idea so much. xD




However, few of these can grow in arctic wastes. Would the culture have artificially warmer areas either underground or in valleys to provide crops?

As a sprawling mountainous maze, the region itself would have multiple little valleys. I imagine since their survival and culture was built around magic, it wouldn't be a stretch that they altered some areas to make suitable for farming.

[Tvtyrant]

Make up some arctic crops, it is fantasy.

Rainears: a crop whose leaf looks like caribou ears. Grows an edible underground tuber that is similar to a cherry potato. Grows prolifically where glaciers have chewed up rocks.

Lichenberries: a crustacean that eats ice abd rock lichen which is highly nutritious.

True Gold: a plant of vital importance, it looks like its tiny fruits are made of gold. Gigantic vitamin c.

[Jack_Simth]

Polymorph Any Object. It has some "not defined" problems when making a golem, however, if you turn a Large chunk of rock into a Stone golem, you have:
Kingdom (Mineral)
Class (Stone)
Size (Large)
Same or Lower Int (-)
... which is more than enough for Permanent. Use a block of ice, and you do the same thing with an ice golem.

The trick is figuring out exactly what their stats are - I usually go with "treat anything undefined as a 0 when doing calculations" - they keep their original HP per Polymorph (so that ten foot cube of stone ends has a thinnest dimension of 120 inches, which, for stone, works out to 1800 hp), are treated as having a BAB and base saves of +0, which means they end up looking like:


Size/Type: Large Construct
Hit Dice: - (1800 HP)
Initiative: -1
Speed: 20 ft (4 squares)
Armor Class: 26 (-1 size, -1 Dex, +18 natural), touch 8, flat-footed 26
Base Attack/Grapple: +0/+13
Attack: Slam +8 melee (2d10+9)
Full Attack: 2 Slams +8 melee (2d10+9)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: - (none inherited due to PaO clauses)
Special Qualities: Construct traits, Vulnerability to dispelling
Saves: Fort +0, Ref -1, Will +0
Abilities: Str 29, Dex 9, Con Ø, Int Ø, Wis 11, Cha 1
Skills: -
Feats: -

Vulnerability to Dispelling: As a spell effect, a Seige Golem can be dispelled, leaving it a block of the original material.
Before casting Polymorph Any Object on the block of material, put a couple of Symbol spells on it, with the trigger condition set for when the Polymorph Any Object spell goes away (which should be easily observable). Reverts if destroyed, and destroying the surface a Symbol spell is on triggers it... as does dispelling the Polymorph spell if you don't alsy successfully dispel the Symbols at the same time... think about it... 1800 hp, that'll take a while for an army to chew through, so it'll have lots of opponents on it... and then when they are all gathered around pounding on it and it finally cracks... four symbols of death (one for each clearly-visible side) go off at once.

Impressive if people don't figure out how you got so many of them, useful as cannon fodder even then (even against casters who make liberal use of dispel magic... if you can force your opponent to use one of today's spell slots to counter a few days' work from six months ago, that's a benefit to you... and even when they're dispelled, they still muck up enemy formations). And, of course, mix a small number of real Stone Golems in there to keep people guessing.

[Telok]

Geas, Imprisonment, and Freedom are interesting if you have high level casters around. Trick, trap, or dominate some dangerous critter then bring it to a likely battle spot (<cough> divination <cough>) for a geas. Cast Imprisonment and it's in stasis and nearly impossible to detect. Leave a few scrolls of Teleport + Freedom in the national armory with instructions on where, who, and how. For better security you can split up the scrolls and the instructions between multiple people and places.

For a bonus you get a thriving trade in dangerous critters that helps to attract strong adventurers to your realm.

[tadkins]

Much appreciated to everyone who's posted and shared. :)

Bookmarked this thread for a reference for the day when/if I build a game out of all this.

[Fizban]

How *would* a nation of peaceful nerds be able to keep themselves safe? They produce few warriors themselves.
Not unless you change the base demographics rules they don't. But assuming you do, then instead of a 5% warrior population they get 5% adepts (or magewrights or some equivalent). Adepts can both cast Burning Hands and fire crossbows. In the sort of large-scale "fight or die" war you're imagining most of the soldiers are actually peasant conscripts which suck on both sides. Instead of commoner conscripts, warrior mercenaries, and aristocrat or warrior knights, you have commoner conscripts, adept mercenaries, and adept knights.

1. The cold environment. I take RL historical inspiration from that part, particularly Germany's failure in regards to Russia during WW2. As the other nations are typically from temperate, or desert environments, none of them would be particularly suited to fighting in the ice. The mages themselves could also pull out stuff like dire winter to make the cold even more intolerable.
2. The supreme magical might of the defenders. While the Talon Guard are few in number, the Shirion mages make sure to keep them well-stocked in magical gear and weaponry. In addition, when large fighting would become necessary, the mages themselves would join in and contribute with environment alteration, summoned aid, buffs...all that good wizard stuff.
Dire Winter is terrible. More important is the geography, and how involved casters are in the other nations. While the winter wizards may have the highest quality individuals, more populous nations will naturally have access to more high level casters, since high level NPCs are tied to the biggest cities (this is where changing demographics comes in again: replacing PHB classes with more caster classes will multiply their magical power). Weather magic is what you want, and competing spells generally throw caster level checks to see who's spell wins (or so I remember, though I'm not sure where the rule is). The side with more top tier casters has more chances to win that roll. The spell you want in particular is Fimbulwinter (Druid/Sor/Wiz 8), from Frostburn: it lasts up to a year and when cast in a cold area the snow won't melt even in summer. It covers a 2 mile/level diameter. If there's no place narrow enough to guard with a single spell then simply wait until an army actually shows up and then snow them to death*). Enemy casters come in when they try to use Control Weather to clear a path.

Individual warriors, no matter how well geared, have very little impact on a grand battlefield. An individual cannot stop an army from marching into town and murdering everyone, or stop them from controlling that territory, short of personally killing them all one at a time. The significance of maritally inclined individuals in this setting is that they're more initially resilient: more hp, more AC. But that's it: a human-int mind in a slightly less squishy body.

So you've got your peasant conscripts but no shock troops, your "knights" are casters who, while capable of instantly slaughtering multiple men in a single spell, don't make for a good cavalry charge. And you want golems because golems are awesome. Slight problem with the mindlessness though. Hey you know what mindless constructs need? Intelligent people in close proximity to direct them, who are tough enough to not die instantly. That's what your smaller martial population does: they command. On the battlefield leadership and tactics are most key and adepts crumple when hit, but a warrior with armor and a couple extra hp is a safer place to keep the knowledge and chain of command. In other nations brute force is common and most warriors are dumb, while adepts are rare and accumulate lore: here magic is common and most adepts are dumb-but the rare warriors are drilled to a man in tactics and battle so that any man who can wear armor can lead an army.

As for what constructs to use, well that's always a bit of a problem since undead are always easier. There are two ways to look at it by cost: replacing large war assets, and comparing troop arming/upkeep costs. The cheapest two constructs I know of for the purpose are either a 1 HD Effigy Creature (as low as 1,500gp craft cost for tiny, 3k for medium or bargain 2k for small). These are easily optimized and equipped with further gear, but are mindless. Or there's my preferred choice, the Dread Guard (MM2 and 3.5 update, craft cost 3k or so), which has int 6 and should be customizable by using better armor/shield to start. 3,000gp is a little more than a 3rd level NPC's gear or a bit less than 4th, so 4th level slots can be replaced with construct shock troopers. Boost their speed and you have heavy cavalry (no substitute for normal cavalry though, horses are cheaper).

Big fancy golems are war assets, slow moving localized threats, the same as building a fort or having a ship. Compare prices accordingly, noting that forts and ships are far better at the actual job of an army of taking/controlling territory. As for how many war assets a place should have, consult PHB2 for it's excellent affiliation rules: proper regional powers of scale 10+ have capital that's worth 10,000*scale per point, usually starting with capital points equal to their scale. It's a very fluid system that could represent all sorts of things, and works as well as any for assigning how many war assets a given power might have (as capital for governments is most notably spent or lost making war on each other when they overlap). If you're willing to trade away a lot of your keeps and castles you can afford plenty of golems to throw at your enemies, but doing so means you'll be defending open ground in more areas (and defending open ground is a euphemism for dying).

*Or Control Winds-> tornado blast them to death, but presumably if you want armies to actually matter you'll be nerfing this. Otherwise literally any army not constantly protected by anti-weather magic will die to basically any 9th level Druid backed by a stiff breeze.