[3.5] Sorcerous SKillmonkey

[Thurbane]

I posted a similar thread some years ago, but need some specific advice.

I'm trying to come up with a build for a sorcerer that:
A) Doesn't lose casting progression
B) Maximizes skill points/level
C) Expands it's available skill list as much as possible
D) As many extra spells known as I can fit in (Bloodline feat etc.)

I've found some decent PrCs for this (especially the Keeper of the Cerulean Sign from LoM), but nothing I can comfortably get into before level 6.

I can shoehorn into Ruathar after 4th, but the cost in feats (Versatile Spellcaster, Heighten Spell) would make it more efficient for me to suck up two more levels, and spend thiose feats on Open Minded (10 skill points).

Human Paragon is an option, but costs a precious casting level.

Any suggestions for PrCs that I can get into early?

Yes, my heart is set on sorcerer - don't want wizard or beguiler suggestions please :smallwink:

Cheers - T

[Troacctid]

This may be useful (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1geywITbI4M-Up08SGD-rUHlnobR66aIgKqu7mILkmhU/edit#gid=691970088)

[AvatarVecna]

Level up to level 20. Make a private demiplane with planar traits that cause you to age years in hours. Return to the Material Plane and purchase two Thought Bottles. Use Thought Bottle 1 to store your current XP level of 185000 and use Thought Bottle 2 to store your current XP level of 180000. Craft a "Cubic Gate", with one side attuned to your demiplane. Return to demiplane, and remain there until you reach the Venerable age category.

The Cycle Step: locate a Druid to cast "Reincarnate" on you (which costs 1280 gp), returning you to the Adult age category as another race, and lowering your level by 1; return to demiplane until Venerable once more.

With clever use of nested Thought Bottles being used to make sure every Cycle Step only costs you 5000 XP, you can rack up quite a few reincarnations; at the end of all this, you'll be at 65000 XP (1000 XP short of 11th level), and will have been Reincarnated 600 times (note: this technically takes more cash that you actually would have by WBL, but I'm sure that once you reached maybe Cha 200, haggling that price down to zero became pretty easy even with huge negative modifiers). You know have +1800 to Int, Wis, and Cha, which should give you 900 skill points per level from Int alone (assuming you had Int 10 before all this).

Level up to level 11 (this shouldn't be difficult, considering the save DC on your spells and the number of spells you have per day); take a single level in "Exemplar", a class that explicitly has "every skill" as a class skill. This sets your maximum in every skill to "character level+3", and with your Int, maxing out main skill shouldn't be difficult. Once all existing skills have been maxed out and are receiving the necessary 1 rank per level to remain maxed out, spend the rest of your levels maxing out increasingly obscure Craft, Knowledge, Perform, and Profession skills; if you run out of existing skills of these types, I recommend that you straight-up invent new professions for the explicit purpose of mastering them.

Needless to say, finding ways to get Int/Wis/Cha to skills not normally based on Int/Wis/Cha is useful.

EDIT: Terribly sorry, I didn't notice that you didn't want to lose caster levels, and my method does lose a caster level, so I guess it won't work for your purposes...hell, it doesn't even really add any new spells known either, so it's a bust in that regard as well.

[ExLibrisMortis]

If you don't want to lose any casting progression, you're basically looking at riddled white dragonspawn venerable dragonwrought kobolds, with the Greater Rite of Draconic Passage. With LA buyoff, that gets you +2 levels of sorcerer casting (and +9 int), so you can now afford to take dips to get class skills. Factotum 1 and Sand Shaper 1, for example. Sand Shaper, incidentally, has 4 skill points per level, and class skills including Diplomacy, Listen, Sense Motive and Spot. Make sure you're an exalted kobold and take Nymph's Kiss.

[AnachroNinja]

What ExLib said. I just got done playing a venerable Dragonwrought loredrake Kobold with greater Draconic rite of passage who went rogue 2/sorc4/unseen seer6 and cast as a 13th level sorcerer. It's a little on the cheese side but my DM didn't mind since I was basically just using the cheese to balance out my rogue levels and gain some utility to keep the party from needing another trap finder skill monkey type.

[Fuzzy McCoy]

I know it costs a caster level, but a Rogue 1/Sorc 4/Unseen seer 10/ruathar 3/x 2 is a pretty good way to go. Lots of skill points, only one caster level lost, pretty good expansion (I think you have everything except heal, then animal skills, and the psionic skills), and some extra spells known.

[Gildedragon]

Instead of Kobold I'd suggest Human White (or Black) Dragonspawn (DLCS) if you can buy off the LA. Same benefit as the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage but a) you get to take the Able Learner feat to keep skills as class skills, and b) you get the human bonus skillpoints and feat

[Ruethgar]

It should be noted that Kobold Dragonspawn are required to take Dragonspawn Abomination as well, gaining a potential, but unlikely, 6 more sorcerer casting levels.

[Thurbane]

I'd rather not use dragon-race shenanigans if I can avoid it. Versatile Spellcaster + Heighten is about as high as the cheese level gets in our games.

Also, most of the settings we play in are hostile to races outside of the more common humanoids (i.e. PHB) races...

[Gildedragon]

I'd rather not use dragon-race shenanigans if I can avoid it. Versatile Spellcaster + Heighten is about as high as the cheese level gets in our games.

Also, most of the settings we play in are hostile to races outside of the more common humanoids (i.e. PHB) races...

You're losing 1 caster level then, for rogue or factotum 1.

Shadowcraft mage is probably a very good choice to expand your repertoire
If flaws are allowed, take "restricted sorcery" (evocation and something else)

[AnachroNinja]

Yeah that's basically the gist of it. There is literally no other way to get skill monkey rogue stuff on a sorcerer without losing caster levels. I've always been of the opinion of cheese being used to make a sub standard build idea into a good one is a win, but some disagree.

You're either gonna have to lose that spellcaster level or reconsider bard/Beguiler. Good luck!

[Telonius]

Are you open to 3rd party? Lost Tradition from Bastards and Bloodlines could get Int as your casting stat; that alone could help you max out two or three more skills.

[ShurikVch]

Thurbane, do you remember your old thread?
[3.5] Full Casting Progression/4+ Skill Points (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?409872-3-5-Full-Casting-Progression-4-Skill-Points&p=19121168)
Re-check it, maybe you will find something useful

[Thurbane]

Are you open to 3rd party? Lost Tradition from Bastards and Bloodlines could get Int as your casting stat; that alone could help you max out two or three more skills.

We do allow that in our games on a case-by-case basis, normally only for dual-stat casters, but it's worth considering.


Thurbane, do you remember your old thread?
[3.5] Full Casting Progression/4+ Skill Points (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?409872-3-5-Full-Casting-Progression-4-Skill-Points&p=19121168)
Re-check it, maybe you will find something useful

Thanks, sometimes I lose track f what I've previously posted. :smallsmile:

[Eisfalken]

Are you guys really just gonna throw beguiler from PHB2 under the bus here? Full 9th-level progression and plenty of skills?

If he's willing to sacrifice sneak attack to get a full-casting skillmonkey, this is pretty much the definition of it.

[Thurbane]

Are you guys really just gonna throw beguiler from PHB2 under the bus here? Full 9th-level progression and plenty of skills?

If he's willing to sacrifice sneak attack to get a full-casting skillmonkey, this is pretty much the definition of it.

Yes, my heart is set on sorcerer - don't want wizard or beguiler suggestions please :smallwink:

Beguiler would normally be my go-to for a build like this, but I'm really wanting a Sorcerer casting base on this one...

[Divide by Zero]

Are you guys really just gonna throw beguiler from PHB2 under the bus here? Full 9th-level progression and plenty of skills?

If he's willing to sacrifice sneak attack to get a full-casting skillmonkey, this is pretty much the definition of it.


Yes, my heart is set on sorcerer - don't want wizard or beguiler suggestions please :smallwink:

Very first post in the thread.

Edit: Beguiler'd.

[Troacctid]

My go-to is Urban Savant. Easy entry, good class features, lots of skill points. If lesser aasimar is an option, then you can go Sorcerer 2/Paragnostic Apostle 3/Urban Savant X, provided you can get two Knowledges as class skill. (Most easily done with Education or Draconic Knowledge.)