How to avoid dieng with a Frenzied Berserker?

[dnscodcs]

Yeah yeah I know you're already unkillable with the Deathless Frenzy class feature but my question was aimed towards the situation where you're at a ridiculous amount of minus hp and your frenzy ENDS... which it eventually will.

Is there a way to set your hp to 1/0/anywhere between -1 => -9 using an item or spell or feat?

My other question would be about the deal with the nonlethal dmg you get from using frenzy.

According to the core rulebook a character whose nonethal dmg exceeds his current hitpoints falls unconcious. Wouldn't this mean that the major pros of this PrC would be rendered useless?

At 2 nonlethal dmg per round my character would be unable to benefit from Deathless Frenzy as he's falling unconcious every time he's at -1 hp (sometimes even before that).

I don't believe this to be the intention of the class but the wording is pretty clear.

[theboss]

Yeah yeah I know you're already unkillable with the Deathless Frenzy class feature but my question was aimed towards the situation where you're at a ridiculous amount of minus hp and your frenzy ENDS... which it eventually will.

Is there a way to set your hp to 1/0/anywhere between -1 => -9 using an item or spell or feat?

If you're with members you can always buy Scroll of Heal and putting it in one of your pary members who can use it (Use Magic Device). Another way, is to be with a cleric/druid and try not to split away from them. Further, you can always have health potions in your bag, But you'll be needing to organize your gold correctly.


My other question would be about the deal with the nonlethal dmg you get from using frenzy.

According to the core rulebook a character whose nonethal dmg exceeds his current hitpoints falls unconcious. Wouldn't this mean that the major pros of this PrC would be rendered useless?

At 2 nonlethal dmg per round my character would be unable to benefit from Deathless Frenzy as he's falling unconcious every time he's at -1 hp (sometimes even before that).

I don't believe this to be the intention of the class but the wording is pretty clear.



At 4th level and higher, a frenzied berserker can scorn death and unconsciousness while in a frenzy. As long as her frenzy continues, she is not treated as disabled at 0 hit points, nor is she treated as dying at —1 to —9 hit points. Even if reduced to —10 hit points or less, she continues to fight normally until her frenzy ends. At that point, the effects of her wounds apply normally if they have not been healed. This ability does not prevent death from massive damage or from spell effects such as slay living or disintegrate.


As you can see, no...
Only spells can kill him while he's in frenzy. Althought, in our group we have made a houserule that when you deal too much damage for the Frenzied Berserker to handle, about 1.5 or 2 times his health, you start cutting off his limbs and by that disable him from moving/attacking that sort of stuff.

[dnscodcs]

My DM is very picky when it comes to things like this.

I have also presented him with the deathless frenzy description which you've quoted but he argues that the first sentence is not in game terms while the rest is.

And in the "Game Term" part no mention of nonlethal damage is made hence why he insists that my character would fall unconcious once he reaches that nonlethal dmg threshold.

He also argues that, as stupid as this sounds, the developers intended frenzied berserkers to fall unconcious through nonlethal dmg since they made no erratas to correct their Deathless Frenzy description.

If anyone happens to have the e-mail of a DnD 3.5 developer I'll try to get a hold of one to clear up this bullcrap...

[Necrov]

My DM is very picky when it comes to things like this.

I have also presented him with the deathless frenzy description which you've quoted but he argues that the first sentence is not in game terms while the rest is.

And in the "Game Term" part no mention of nonlethal damage is made hence why he insists that my character would fall unconcious once he reaches that nonlethal dmg threshold.

He also argues that, as stupid as this sounds, the developers intended frenzied berserkers to fall unconcious through nonlethal dmg since they made no erratas to correct their Deathless Frenzy description.


Your DM appears to be being very obtuse. The description is clear, the intention is also clear. You are immune to death and unconsciousness whilst under Deathless Frenzy. The first line merely describes it with a -tiny- bit of fluff. It changes nothing of the meaning or intent.

[theboss]

My DM is very picky when it comes to things like this.

I have also presented him with the deathless frenzy description which you've quoted but he argues that the first sentence is not in game terms while the rest is.

If this is the case try to talk with your fellow team mates to support you. Maybe he'll change his mind if he sees the rest are agreeing with you.



And in the "Game Term" part no mention of nonlethal damage is made hence why he insists that my character would fall unconcious once he reaches that nonlethal dmg threshold.

As you were saying, nonlethal damage bigger than your HP makes you fall unconscious, In Deathless Frenzy they state pretty clearly that the subject can scorn death and unconsciousness.


At 4th level and higher, a frenzied berserker can scorn death and unconsciousness while in a frenzy.
I don't know what your DM intends too, but he's not explaining it well as you describe it. Just look at the quote, nothing is complicated here.



He also argues that, as stupid as this sounds, the developers intended frenzied berserkers to fall unconcious through nonlethal dmg since they made no erratas to correct their Deathless Frenzy description.
I don't understand, the ability says very clearly that the subject is immune to death and unconsciousness while in a frenzy. As i was saying, talk to your fellow team mates and explain the misunderstanding.

Just to be sure, are we talking about 3.5 version of frenzied berserker? And can you describe clearly his opinion on the matter, because "in game terms" explains nothing.

[dnscodcs]

Yes we are talking about the 3.5 FB.

The problem my DM has with the quote is that it's not expressed in explicit game terms. It's a very special type of being obstuse.

Basically he insists that the deathless frenzy description should include some sort of line that explicitly tells you that a frenzied berserker is immune to the effects of being staggered and/or unconscious that result from accumulating too much nonlethal damage, just like the class feature states that you are immune to the effects of being disabled/dying from being at -1 to -10 or less hp.

He's very picky and takes everything RAW as it is. He keeps insisting that if the feature was written poorly they would've erratat it.

I know what the devs intended, you know what the devs intended but unless I can come up with a convincing argument as to why taking everything literally all the time doesn't make sense he won't budge.

That's why the dream would be to get a hold of a dev, preferably one that took part in writing the Complete Warrior book, and ask him to tell my DM that he's being retarded.

EDIT: should include*

[galan]

Fight RAW with RAW.

The ability explicitly states the FB is not dying when at -1 to -9 HP. Asks the DM to point why should your FB be unconscious if he isn't dying and didn't suffer nonlethal damage. All in game-terms without the first line

[dnscodcs]

Fight RAW with RAW.

The ability explicitly states the FB is not dying when at -1 to -9 HP. Asks the DM to point why should your FB be unconscious if he isn't dying and didn't suffer nonlethal damage. All in game-terms without the first line

You're underestimating his lack of common sense.

He insists that the only benefit of deathless frenzy is that you won't die at minus infinite HP, but you won't be able to act either, laying unconcious for as long as your accumulated nonlethal damage is higher than your current HP.

How someone can believe that the devs would ever intentionally create this kind of raging, frenzying, tireless class just to have it lay unconcious when it should be fighting?

I don't know.

[Seppo87]

He's very picky and takes everything RAW as it is. He keeps insisting that if the feature was written poorly they would've erratata'd it
Just point to him any RAW bug/abuse and make sure to make the point that by his logic "if it was written poorly there would be errata about it"

[AvatarVecna]

Just point to him any RAW bug/abuse and make sure to make the point that by his logic "if it was written poorly there would be errata about it"

This touches on an interesting point: if you're playing with a DM that will let you do anything as long as it's RAW legal, and he's being a dillhole about the Frenzied Berserker's most well-known and arguably most useful ability, just ask if you can make a different character, since the idea that this ability let you act while below 0 HP was what you wanted from it. Then build a proper caster and ROFLSTOMP all over the concept of game balance. Make sure to point out that, if the designers didn't want a Wizard 7 to be pumping out 14 attacks per round at +10 to hit and 1d10+4 damage, and didn't want that same Wizard to be getting 14 breath weapon attacks every 1d4 rounds, they would've specified that Pyrohydras weren't a legal Polymorph form, and would've specificed that the familiar ability "share spells" doesn't work for Polymorph.

"If it's broken, WotC would've fixed it" is the most hilariously backwards things I've ever seen anybody say about 3.5; WotC either gives absolutely no ****s about balance, or has no concept of what's balanced and what's broken, because 3.5 is a mess of things that allow some party members to completely dominate the game once it gets into double-digit levels.

[Necrov]

Yes we are talking about the 3.5 FB.

The problem my DM has with the quote is that it's not expressed in explicit game terms. It's a very special type of being obstuse.

Basically he insists that the deathless frenzy description should include some sort of line that explicitly tells you that a frenzied berserker is immune to the effects of being staggered and/or unconscious that result from accumulating too much nonlethal damage, just like the class feature states that you are immune to the effects of being disabled/dying from being at -1 to -10 or less hp.

He's very picky and takes everything RAW as it is. He keeps insisting that if the feature was written poorly they would've erratat it.

I know what the devs intended, you know what the devs intended but unless I can come up with a convincing argument as to why taking everything literally all the time doesn't make sense he won't budge.

That's why the dream would be to get a hold of a dev, preferably one that took part in writing the Complete Warrior book, and ask him to tell my DM that he's being retarded.

EDIT: should include*

The first line is super clear, and in game terms. Being immune to unconsciousness is being immune to unconsciousness. There is no 'special' unconsciousness that sidesteps that rule for taking non-lethal damage. And I'm afraid if your DM isn't capable of using a thesaurus to put the sentence into terms he understands, then we really can't be of much more help. The ability is clear, your DM is wrong by RAW. This isn't even vaguely unclear.

[dnscodcs]

Ok so after a long discussion he finally budged now. He admits that at times RAW text doesn't make too much sense and will step in when that happens.

Thank you all for your help and arguments. I was honestly considering rerolling a caster at some point.

Anyways back on topic:



If you're with members you can always buy Scroll of Heal and putting it in one of your pary members who can use it (Use Magic Device). Another way, is to be with a cleric/druid and try not to split away from them. Further, you can always have health potions in your bag, But you'll be needing to organize your gold correctly.


Scroll of Heal and Cleric spells are nice and all but what I was looking for was not necessarily a heal to get me out of the negative hp numbers but rather an ability that "sets" my hp to a certain value.

Say a spell, item or feat that immediately sets my hp from minus whatever, 500 for example, to any value between plus anything to minus 9 (since I don't want to die after the frenzy ends).

I wanted to know if such a thing even exists or if it would make more sense to just have our healing casters revive me after every fight in case I drop too low on hp which sounds like an incredible simple solution but is probably a lot harder to accomplish.

[Amphetryon]

Silly RAW answer: the FB dips his head in a bucket of water, beginning to drown.


Drowning

Any character can hold her breath for a number of rounds equal to twice her Constitution score. After this period of time, the character must make a DC 10 Constitution check every round in order to continue holding her breath. Each round, the DC increases by 1. See also: Swim skill description.

When the character finally fails her Constitution check, she begins to drown. In the first round, she falls unconscious (0 hp). In the following round, she drops to -1 hit points and is dying. In the third round, she drowns.

You'll then need a way to interrupt the process before death.

[Leon]

Wait till the PC is asleep and coup de grâce. Then help them make a new useful sensible character

[dnscodcs]

Silly RAW answer: the FB dips his head in a bucket of water, beginning to drown.



You'll then need a way to interrupt the process before death.

Hahahaha yeah misunderstanding RAW text in its finest :D

[SangoProduction]

You're underestimating his lack of common sense.

No game > bad game.