need help killing a 5 man level 4 party with a level 3 rogue. using items and rules.

[Recurver]

One of my players from a game i'm running has started his first gm game with some of his friends. They are very green to d&d and he has requested that i "show them what an expert can do". His party consists of a half orc rogue (yes he chose half orc), a chaotic good cleric (who wants to kill the sorcerer and no the sorc. is not evil) ,a sorc who picks fights with everyone, a fighter who attacks everything regardlesss of cr, and an unoptimized monk who doesn't say much.
My friend has requested that i perform a total party kill using the lowest level character that i can. i came to the conclusion that i can do this with a level 3 human rogue. I plan on using and abusing several items from shax's haversack but i'm gonna try and spread out their deaths. That being said i'm going to use rapid shot to throw Atramen oil on one of them (to reduce fort save by 4 no save) followed by Abaleth mucus (dc 19 fort save or die) followed by moving back into trap hole (80' deep) leading to the dungeon i set up in advance. also gonna be using liquid ice and razor ice on a steep sloped hallway.
almost forgot to mention that my character was also given 5 scrolls of true res. to bring them back after. something of a test for them.
I just need help thinking of other shananagins i can employ in said dungeon.

Be evil, be devious, BE GM'S:smallbiggrin:

[Theobod]

Assuming for a moment that there is some actual IC justification here, such as a prophetic *Heroes must have seen both sides of the veil to kill the evil one* or whatever, and not just a vindictive DM teaching his players that arms races are fun for all the family.....

Show them what a skilled player can do using only mundane and alchemic equipment, tanglefoot bags, superior speed, alchemists fire, hidey holes and hit n run tactics, in short Tucker's Kobolds their asses, don't bother with a 'previously prepared dungeon' scenario, that just smells like the DM is fiating perfect circumstances, no, the intent is clearly to show what a single player can do.

If you insist on using magic use expeditious retreat scrolls and UMD, also hold portal can be fun if you are doing this in a ruin/town instead of say, a woodland area, which lends itself very well to being abused for Tuckers tactics.

And above all, do it within WBL.

[weckar]

Well, it seems to me that it is rather your preparation and items that will do the killing, rather than the character.
That said, you'll at least want a way to reliably use those scrolls. Can't have you mess those up...

[Recurver]

Assuming for a moment that there is some actual IC justification here, such as a prophetic *Heroes must have seen both sides of the veil to kill the evil one* or whatever, and not just a vindictive DM teaching his players that arms races are fun for all the family.....

Show them what a skilled player can do using only mundane and alchemic equipment, tanglefoot bags, superior speed, alchemists fire, hidey holes and hit n run tactics, in short Tucker's Kobolds their asses, don't bother with a 'previously prepared dungeon' scenario, that just smells like the DM is fiating perfect circumstances, no, the intent is clearly to show what a single player can do.

If you insist on using magic use expeditious retreat scrolls and UMD, also hold portal can be fun if you are doing this in a ruin/town instead of say, a woodland area, which lends itself very well to being abused for Tuckers tactics.

And above all, do it within WBL.

good call. my intent was to use only mundane things from the start, but i agree that a fully prepped dungeon might leave a sour taste. i am going to need at least SOME prep time though. going head to head with all 5 of them would be bad. it would be fairly easy to divide them though. the biggest threat i would face is during the first meeting. i'd need to hit and run as safely as possible.

[weckar]

If you're not married to the idea of going Rogue, I'd suggest going Scout instead. Hit and run is their THING, and by 3rd level their speed bonus comes online. Add in some Tumble and... the party gets a taste of "can't hit what you can't catch".

[Recurver]

If you're not married to the idea of going Rogue, I'd suggest going Scout instead. Hit and run is their THING, and by 3rd level their speed bonus comes online. Add in some Tumble and... the party gets a taste of "can't hit what you can't catch".
i like it. scout it is. gonna have to be super careful but i can work with this.

any other ideas? even a suggestion of first round interactions would be nice.

[AvatarVecna]

Ignoring the possibility of poisoning them, or killing them in their sleep, I would suggest using a scroll of Color Spray (note: be a Wizard 1/Rogue 2 instead of a Rogue 3; this makes it much easier, and even allows you to cast it with your own spell slot rather than from a scroll). Assuming you can get the whole party with this spell, and assuming none of them make the save (only one with a decent chance is the Monk, and maaaaaybe the Sorcerer), and now you have 1d4+1 rounds to SA Coup de Grace them.

Alternatively, build a super-sneaker who attacks them when it's not daylight out: a Whisper Gnome with the Dark Creature template has a Silence SLA, HiPS in less than full lighting conditions, Small Size, 40 ft movement speed, and +12/+10 racial bonus to Hide/Move Silently; throw on a couple Ranger levels for skill ranks (+5), masterwork items of both skills (+2), and the Darkstalker feat, and you have a character who, without any magic items whatsoever, has Hide +23/Move Silently +17. Why Ranger, and not Rogue? So that you can hit snipe them with a longbow from 200 ft away; this gives you a -2 to hit, but they'll be flat-footed...and while you have a -20 to Hide after sniping, they have a -20 to Spot from the range.

[Cerefel]

The craft skill for traps is actually fairly unbalanced in terms of search/disable DCs so if you have the time to prep, you can make things that will be impossible to find and can potentially instakill mid-level characters.

[AnimeTheCat]

Two words:

Drow Poison

Hitting them prompts a DC13 fort save. If they fail, they sleep for a long time (1 hour) and if they fail again they fall asleep for a long long time (2d4 hours). If they succeed, you still get your damage off (and possibly skirmish damage). On top of the amazing dropping allies, its CHEAP (75g is very inexpensive for poisons). This can be cheesed really well with travel devotion, but well... that's cheese and I feel as though you want to avoid that.

[Barbarian Horde]

Caltrops combined with the above poison.

[ngilop]

I am not sure that killing the party is anywhere near close to the answer/ response 'show them what a veteran can do'.

But I guess each and everyone teaches differently.

[mabriss lethe]

If you really want to show them what an expert can do, you should probably play an Expert. There's nothing quite like creating havoc using an NPC class.

[Darrin]

Two words:

Drow Poison

Hitting them prompts a DC13 fort save.


Three words:

Drow Arrow Poison.

More specifically, the version in Savage Species (p. 47) with a DC 17. The normal DC 13 is too low, with a 1st level fighter shrugging it off more often than not.

Or if you're really going to use poison on them, chaos flask -> megapede poison is the way to go, with a DC 44 that gives you a 95% kill ratio on most PCs. If you're on a tight budget, aboleth mucus is cheaper. If attack rolls worry you, consider using a sprayer or mister. A Swordsage 3 with Quickdraw can draw a mister as a free action, TWF for two touch attacks per round, and use Cloak of Deception to avoid most AoOs. You can also use knockout drugs to force an overdose (Kammarth or Mushroom Powder), then coup de grace at your leisure.

I'm not entirely sure a TPK via equipment would be considered all that skillful... but then again you're using Shax, so I'd probably count it. If you're looking for something based on skills... Bubs the Commoner (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=7097263&postcount=38) is viable around level 4, although I wasn't entirely clear on where exactly he finds three battletitan dinosaurs just wandering around.

[Yogibear41]

Be something with darkvision(whisper gnome?), be sneaky, cou de grace them while they sleep. Preferably starting with the one person who can actually see in the dark. You can easily have +10 or more to hide and move silently at level 3, combine that with penalties for distance on their checks (its -1 for every five or ten feet if I recall) there is a pretty good chance they will not know you are there, especially since most of those classes do not have spot or listen as class skills. Other scenarios would be poisoning their food. If they pass the save, they might have to go spend an hour or two in the bushes because of an upset stomach, if they fail, they will die. Had a DM kill my character like that once, an imp used its suggestion on an NPC who was cooking me dinner, she added a little "extra ingredient" to it, I was sedated, imp tied me up, then tortured me to death. It was unpleasant :smallsmile:


Depending on how much realism is in the game, you could also just be a super opportunist. Everyone has to go to the bathroom eventually, sure the fighter might be tough now wearing his full plate armor and that greatsword, but he might forget to take them with him when he goes sprinting to the out house after eating a batch of "bad trail rations"

[Caedes]

a chaotic good cleric (who wants to kill the sorcerer and no the sorc. is not evil) ,a sorc who picks fights with everyone

This one almost answers itself.

When the party is camping and the Sorc is on watch. Stealth in and use a scroll of the Sorc's favorite blaster. I.E Magic Missile on the Cleric.

As long as you were undetected. You create a good amount of chaos. The Cleric or Sorc Kill each other. Whichever one lives is weakened. Rest is interrupted so they do not get spells back.

And the best part is. You can pre-roll your stealth checks and the like, so the party has no real idea that they have just entered into the worst game of their newbie lives.

-----

Now all that being said. I think this idea of TPKing a a group of new players is risky. These people are just learning the game and a TPK can be really demoralizing.

Planning a TPK like this is something I would typically reserve for a a group of more experienced players that might actually have a valid chance to avoid it.

Remember that shooting fish in a barrel is typically not that much fun for either the shooter or the fish.

[Kelvarius]

I feel like most if the suggested answers ignore the fluff reasons for this encounter. It being a test of their worth or some such. This implies, to me, that they should be aware there is an encounter.

Perhaps optimize for a specific type of fight. Somewhere with a ton of obstacles and challenges that require constant balance checks, hamper movement, climbing, etc. You're a skill monkey. Use that.

Further, you could also do something like blind fighting and use a darkness spell/scroll. Take out the sorc first, as that will be the more likely one to counter it. Cleric might, but I doubt green players will pick many spells that don't do damage or control.

[AlanBruce]

I kind of went this route in a game years ago.

The targets where a Beguiler and a Dragon Shaman, both level 8.

The assailants were a sorcerer, a pair of rogues, and a fighter. Each level 4.

The Beguiler was not caught in their trap, due to him having very good Listen and Spot...

The shaman? Not so much.

The surprise round was not a blast, or an arrow, or a dagger.

It was a bunch of marbles.

Very few PCs invest in the Balance skill. A DC 15 Balance check because of marbles and you're on your back on the ground at worse, struggling to not fall at best.

The rogues? They just had a field day carving their names on the bumbling shaman with their daggers, since she had just lost her dexterity bonus and was thus open to sneak attacks for several rounds.

Of course, it all ended when the Beguiler used one of the Whelm spells and it was over, but that was at level 8... and it was nearly a TPK.

You have a group of PCs that are half the level mentioned above and I'm guessing the monk did not invest in Balance.

Marbles... the poor man's Grease.

That being said, it should be pointed out, as it has been from several other posters, that this is a terrible idea for people who are just starting D&D and chances are that you will only accomplish them walking away from the game and never wanting to come back to it.

[Vizzerdrix]

Intomb them in shapesand coffins. A portable hole has 10 minutes of air, so an air tight coffin should only have rounds of air. And if they cant see that it is shapesand they wont know to make opposed control checks. You could also leave a hole in the lid by their feet and umd create water into it. Or drop a handfull of black sand in with them.

[Spore]

That being said, it should be pointed out, as it has been from several other posters, that this is a terrible idea for people who are just starting D&D and chances are that you will only accomplish them walking away from the game and never wanting to come back to it.

This.

Even if the party is a trainwreck from a mechanical standpoint, this does not justify TPKing just to insert new characters. Make their first adventure a prologue, or even allow them to respec after the first story arc, maybe even use his idea and capture them after that successful raid.

Use non-lethal methods, defeat them all and capture them. When they wake up from attribute damage/nonlethal damage/Hold Person shenanigans, do not belittle them:

"And to think you were the people I wanted to hire for my EPIC QUEST. You fought formidably but you still need training. Allow me to help you." [insert two week training montage and respeccing the characters, but remember: Do not FORCE change upon them. If they like their characters as is, leave them be]

In short: Don't be destructive, be constructive.

[PaucaTerrorem]

Use the Whisper Gnome with the Dark Creature template and start the encounter by picking them off while in marching formation. Give the PCs Spot/Listen checks (which won't be beaten at that level) and then take a suprise round to Sneak Attack whoever is in back. You'll get a round of hide and half movement. Get away and snipe the next. After that you have a full encounter but the PCs are hopefully down 2 people.

I want to add this; explain to the party afterwards that this was just an example of what can be done with some homework and experience. This is the level of play possible if people want it. Make the deaths a wash. Never happened. For those interested, work with them to show the combos possible.

[Florian]

This will be such a humiliating and frustrating experience, I bet a bunch of them will quit the game and rightly so.

Ok, besides that, Whisper Gnome/Dark Creature as mentioned, Sorc2/Rog1 using Drow Sleep poison on caltrops and shuriken, Heavy use of Sleep followed by CdG.

[killem2]

This is a stupid thing to even agree to and very good way to turn a good group of players away for good.

[Melcar]

If you're not married to the idea of going Rogue, I'd suggest going Scout instead. Hit and run is their THING, and by 3rd level their speed bonus comes online. Add in some Tumble and... the party gets a taste of "can't hit what you can't catch".

Swiftblade?

[ExLibrisMortis]

Swiftblade?
Not at level 3.

I would suggest a dark template (LA bought off) strongheart halfling rogue (halfling substitution level) 1/fighter (drow exoticist sneak attack) 1/druid 1 (halfling sub level, swift hunter & avenger variant, with whirling frenzy alternate rage). With 25 point buy: 14-2 str, 14+2 dex, 13 con, 10 int, 14 wis, 8 cha. Higher point buys should increase dex, as the build needs more attack bonus. Feats: Able Sniper, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot. Items: war sling, skiprock, wand of sniper's shot (shouldn't need more than 20 charges or so). Smokesticks, with the 10 min/level orison fire eyes, which allows you to see through smoke (thanks Eggynack!).

What you get
Ranged sneak attack +3d6
EWP with skiprocks and war slings
Rage: Whirling Frenzy
Fast Movement
Wisdom to AC
Track
Favoured Enemy (Player Characters)
A few castings of magic stone each day, and/or entangle
Hide in Plain Sight
+8 on Hide, +6 on Move Silently, and small size

Between the template and the fast movement, you should have a 40' speed. AC should be 16, 18 while raging, but you can't use armour. The exalted variant would have AC 21, or 23 while raging.

Your attack bonus with a sling firing a magic stone should be:
+2 [bab]
+1 [halfling]
+1 [magic stone]
+1 [size]
+3 [dex]
-2 [whirling frenzy]
-2 [rapid shot]
+4 total. You also get +2 against targets more than 30' away, and +1 against targets within 30'. Your range increment is only 50', however.

You should attack only from cover, against flat-footed targets, and rage. You fire three skiprocks per turn, that's one casting of magic stones. Each stone deals 1d6+2 damage. You get +2 bonus damage against your favoured enemy, +2 while raging, +4 against targets within 30', and 3d6 sneak attack. In addition, each skiprock ricochets to attack another target within 5'. This attack is at -2, but it's otherwise free. Strike when the party is next to one another, or target familiars and mounts.

Note: Able Sniper only works with single attacks (which you make at +10), I added it to snipe the sorcerer, because they can hurt you with magic missile. After that, you can make a full attack, but only if you're in an unreachable location, because you can't re-hide on your turn.

You can also go full exalted, with Sacred Vow, Vow of Poverty, Nemesis, Subduing Strike, and another bonus exalted feat. Turns all that SA damage nonlethal (but not the base damage, that only works for melee attacks), so you don't need those resurrection scrolls. Downside is, you don't get to use a warsling or skiprock, but regular slings and stones should still work.

[Eldariel]

I'd just honestly Whisper Gnome Wizard 3 with two (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererWizard) Animal Companions (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a). He shouldn't need items - spells, speed and hiding will suffice. Could make him a conjurer for Abrupt Jaunt to make him slightly more elusive to boot - that would make it harder to pick a second companion but c'est la vie. All he really needs are some big stupid fighters to kill the enemies and companions + hirelings or purchased animals do it (though purchased animals need move actions to direct which is a bit inconvenient). He could of course use scrolls too but that might make it too easy.

[ekarney]

You're going about this the wrong way, (assuming even for a moment that this involves any sort of right way at all)

Hit and run or taking them out one at a time isn't going to teach them anything, and a one level difference in a 1 on 1 fight is nothing. Unless you're talking about two wizards, one of which has the next level of spells.

My advice: Build a character that isn't in the land of theoretical optimization at HD4, and take them on all at once.

Second of all, do it in say an arena with your character being the current champion or whatever. Have a healing squad available between matches/make sure all the damage gets converted to nonlethal/have some sort of safety net, because really how often are the players going to have the bonus of terrain when fighting, allowing yourself an advantage the players will almost never have, such as your own custom dungeon doesn't show them the plus points of optimization.

Thirdly, and was suggested before, don't be a jerk about winning. Allow the players the chance to re-spec but only if they want to.

Now a smooth segway into an even more opinionated part of the post.

1. "Show them what a veteran can do" sounds to me more like your GM wanted to know what you could do. Not what an entire board of optimizers can do. Unless the players are also going to be making threads here on how they can improve their characters to counter you.

2. I wanna rehash on this. Throwing your WBL out the window, and crafting yourself an entire custom dungeon really doesn't show anyone the benefit of optimization. If the GM approved that then I'm questioning as to why the rocks haven't fallen yet.

3. It's really rather difficult to optimize to any great extent at this level, imho, I'd say do this at level 6 or so after a gentle optimization course. That's probably the best playing field, anything lower and you lack optimization potential, anything too much higher and caster supremacy starts coming into play.

4. Honestly, if executed badly, and it seems like will be considering your, uh, attitude towards this all it will do is make players leave (Note players leaving = bad) or just encourage arms races and choppy optimization such as trying to scramble for early LA abilities and front loading their characters (Note, arms races and choppy optimizing = bad). I just don't see this being a very productive exercise.

5. Kind of a continuation from 4, whatever. The better way to go about this, and which is what I've done in the past, would be to temporarily throw in fairly built NPC allies, and have casual build chats and advice in between/before sessions. Worked for my players, without being unnecessarily nasty about it.

[Recurver]

Not sure if thread Necromancy or not at this point but i figured i'd give an update anyway.

My day in that Campaign never actually ended up happening.

sadly the inner party conflict between the players became too much and they ended up killing each other off before i even got there.

after that Fiasco the GM sat them all down for new characters. This time, however, he had me sit down with them all and help them with their builds and strategies.

Before i even had any of them build their new characters i asked them all openly what their alignments were and calmly explained the differences and difficulties of each of them. After hearing the advice on alignment they successfully avoided the 2 big bads of alignments for beginners (chaotic evil and chaotic neutral).
After they finished building there new characters i ran them through a test fight. I dusted off my first ever character sheet and had them fight a laughably un-optimized fighter (fond memories indeed though) They won, by a close margin 2 of them died and one was half hp. after that fight though i had them run it again, the second time they annihilated him completely. they all felt great afterwards, and from what i've been told, they have become a very tight nit group of worthy adventurers since that day.

Thank you all for your advice on the matter.

I especially would like to thank all those people who tempered my initial blood lust. you are the people that help make this game great.

[Theobod]

Hooray, happy ending!

[Recurver]

Hooray, happy ending!
A happy ending indeed good sir. I've actually been getting regular updates on the teams exploits and we all love hearing them. The new GM is actually running them through some of the dungeons i made for scratch early on in my gming career. we are all getting a huge case of the fun nostalgia. fun fun for all around.