Unchained Monk/Rogue. Will this work?

[Arutema]

So I've got a concept for a character that kicks ass while unarmed and unarmored, favoring finesse over raw force.

Class-wise, it seems a monk/rogue is the way to go, using the unchained version of both classes.

I'm thinking undine for race thanks to Dex and Wis bonuses. (My choices are core races, kitsune, nagaji, wayang, tengu, undine, ifrit.)

My thoughts on build so far.
l1: Monk 1 (flurry of blows, unarmed strike, AC bonus)
l2: Rogue 1 (sneak attack, weapon finesse)
l3: Rogue 2 (rogue talent, evasion)
l4: Rogue 3 (finesse training)

That gets me dex to damage on unarmed strikes, without needing a magic item for it.

How viable is this? (by martial character standards)

Feat suggestions? I'm getting some of the major ones for a dex build for free from urogue. Rogue talent suggestions?

What's the best mix of classes past level 4? Should I take one more level of rogue for debilitating injury? Should I take even more levels of rogue for more sneak attack dice, or go back to monk for its features?

[Geddy2112]

It will work as a perfectly viable martial, and comes online about the same time you would get agile on an AoMF and 2d6 sneak attack which is nice with flurry of blows.

The key feat you need is piranha strike, power attack for light weapons. You are a dex build so combat reflexes is also worth picking up. Improved initiative is good for any build and eldritch heritage can get a familiar which is pretty nice. I strongly suggest picking up an unarmed style feat, there are plenty of good ones depending on what you want to do.

Since you get evasion through the rogue, consider a monk archtype that dumps it instead of umonk. Monk of the iron mountain is probably the best choice here. You could go with a rogue archetype that drops evasion as well, but none are great. Dark lurker is decent for blind fight and ability to AoO foes in cover, snoop is good for a skillmonkey with decent int, and swindler is not terrible.

Combat trick is probably the best rogue talent for the free feat. Assault leader and distracting attack are also good. Fast getaway+decoy ring is an incredibly powerful combo.

[Florian]

Like always, it´ll depend on your flanking buddy. If you´re in for the link run, investing in some Ninja Tricks and Ki Equipment/Monks Robe will prove to be valuable. Aim at Monk4/Rogue 11 to have a flexible build.

[Efrate]

If you go unchained monk, get to 5 for flying kick style. Gives pseudo pounce with flurry, and combined with stealth is a nice way to get a big chunk of dps.

[Arutema]

Here's my feat/talent thoughts so far:

1: Monk. Feat: Aquatic Combatant, Monk Bonus Feat: Combat Reflexes
2: Rogue. Weapon Finesse (Bonus from urogue)
3: Rogue. Feat: Piranha Strike, Rogue Talent: Weapon Training (Unarmed Strike)
4: Rogue. Finesse Training (Unarmed Strike)
5: Rogue. Feat: Accomplished Sneak Attacker, Rogue Talent: Slow Reactions, Debilitating Injury
6: Monk. Monk Bonus Feat: Dodge
7: Monk. Ki Pool, Feat: Extra Rogue Talent (Ninja Trick (Vanishing Trick))
8: Monk. Ki Power: ?
9: Monk. Style Strike: Flying Kick
10: ?
11: ?
12: Campaign will probably end at this level.

Thoughts? Suggestions?

[Efrate]

More unchained rogue, or even unchained ninja as a base or an additional class. Gives you more ki and more invisibility so you can reliably sneak more often, combined with flying kick that a pretty solid attack routine that can guarantee a decent bit of sneak every turn.

[Sayt]

I'd weigh this up against the Monk of the Mantis (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/monk-of-the-mantis-monk-archetype) archetype (Compatible with Unchained).

You'll get about as much sneak attack as your planned build if you put the two unknown levels in rogue, and at the same time increase your Ki pool, but you'll be reliant on your normal feat progression for Dex to damage (I strongly recommend Dreamscarred Press' Deadly Agility (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/feats#TOC-Deadly-Agility-Combat-) as a no-frills option, although it is third party, so GM may not allow it).

The advantage of MoTM is that you can get everything in a streamlined package, a bit more BAB and Ki, and you can slot in the Dimensional Agility/Dervish line of feats at the endgame, but you don't get the nice things the u!Rogue has.

Honestly either look like they could do decently.

[Secret Wizard]

My opinion:

This is not the way to go.

If you want a finesse monk, spread your stats with an emphasis in dexterity and get weapon finesse. Yes, you'll still use your 13/14 STR for damage. And yes, this also means you'll deal more damage than the monk/rogue any day of the week.

This is because you'll draw up Jabbing Style next. Even if you only add +2 damage from strength, the jabbing damage will compensate.

The lame duck rogue dexterity build will not only delay access to crucial features way too long (Ki pool/style strikes), and it will not only delay obtaining the +11 BAB required to qualify for jabbing master, it will also never be able to get it because power attack is a prerequisite.

Not to mention the DEX/str build deals good damage with any light weapon, while the rogue monk is restrained by your Finesse Training choice.

In summary, unless you are playing 10 point buy, I see no benefit of going rogue.

[Florian]

Monk of the Mantis has the distinctive Disadvantage of only being able to deal SA damage on a full attack while flurrying. Its nice but situational.

[Psyren]

Monk of the Mantis has the distinctive Disadvantage of only being able to deal SA damage on a full attack while flurrying. Its nice but situational.

Not really - thanks to Flying Kick, you should have no trouble flurrying every round. All you need to SA at that point is a flanking buddy, which the rogue multiclass would have needed too.

Alternatively, flank with yourself. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/dimensional-savant)

[Drelua]

I've thought about doing something similar, except instead of Unchained Rogue for DEX to damage, I was thinking about taking a level in Swashbuckler and Slashing Grace with a monk weapon, probably either the nine-ring broadsword or temple sword. Alternatively, take Snake Style and your unarmed strikes are now a light piercing weapon. :smallcool:

This has the advantages of not costing you any BAB, only delaying your Monk abilities by 1 level, and giving you a couple cool abilities, even if you won't have very much panache. Plus, it doesn't really delay access to the Dimensional Dervish line, since you're qualifying at level 9 instead of 8 but you don't have a feat slot until 9 anyway. Basically, it's DEX to damage at the cost of a level and a feat, instead of 3 levels.

Rogue does sound like it could also work pretty well, a flurry of sneak attacks sounds like a fun time. Just thought I'd suggest something similar in case you hadn't thought of it.:smallsmile:

[Arutema]

I've thought about doing something similar, except instead of Unchained Rogue for DEX to damage, I was thinking about taking a level in Swashbuckler and Slashing Grace with a monk weapon, probably either the nine-ring broadsword or temple sword. Alternatively, take Snake Style and your unarmed strikes are now a light piercing weapon. :smallcool:

This has the advantages of not costing you any BAB, only delaying your Monk abilities by 1 level, and giving you a couple cool abilities, even if you won't have very much panache. Plus, it doesn't really delay access to the Dimensional Dervish line, since you're qualifying at level 9 instead of 8 but you don't have a feat slot until 9 anyway. Basically, it's DEX to damage at the cost of a level and a feat, instead of 3 levels.

Rogue does sound like it could also work pretty well, a flurry of sneak attacks sounds like a fun time. Just thought I'd suggest something similar in case you hadn't thought of it.:smallsmile:

Unfortunately, the errata nerfbat made slashing grace not work in a flurry. And I'd strongly prefer to be as gear-independent as a PF character can be (which, admittedly, is not very).

Besides urogue's debilitating injury, what other feats or abilites can I take to add debuffs to my unarmed strikes or sneak attacks, and which ones are worth it?

[Florian]

@Arutema:

It would help if you could say a little bit more about the campaign you want that character for. Environments, frequency of combats, at that. There´s a reason you picked Aquatic Combatant, right?