Paladins and undead grafts

[SadisticFishing]

Yeah, I have a player, Paladin 8/Crusader 2/Ruby Knight Vindicator 10 (swift casting, restoration, and greater divine surge hurts) that wants an undead graft. He's LG, and a paladin, but I can't find anywhere that says they're not allowed.

He worships Wee Jas, by the by.

What do you think?

[Tor the Fallen]

What's your DM think?

[SadisticFishing]

... that would be me, and I honestly think it shouldn't work, especially with Complete Champion saying that even Wee Jas doesn't really use undead...

But my opinion isn't that important, if I can't back it up well enough - which I can't. Someone help me :P

[Yechezkiel]

He's a Paladin of Wee Jas... I think it fits. It's creepy, but so's Wee Jas. Think of it as being imbued with a bit of the "divine", i.e. Necromancy.

[kkortekaas]

I'd say it all depends on his deity...if say it was Lathander, I'd say no, if it was Kelemvor I'd probably say maybe. And then he's got to find someone to do it, it's not like he can just walk into a shop and say...see this dead arm, paste it onto me.

[SadisticFishing]

He's a Paladin of Wee Jas... I think it fits. It's creepy, but so's Wee Jas. Think of it as being imbued with a bit of the "divine", i.e. Necromancy.

Wee Jas isn't a Goddess of Necromancy, just death. =\

[Yechezkiel]

Wee Jas isn't a Goddess of Necromancy, just death. =\

Look at the Death Domain?

[evisiron]

Hmmm... in my campaign the players ended up with undead grafts after they got dropped near a necromancers lab. They got ressed with new appendages. It made for some good roleplaying ("We are Freaks! FREAKS!") and the players got a bit extra. Still, while everyone was good, there were no clerics or paladins about, so no trouble.

However, in your situation, I would do the following:
1. Explain that it is very un-paladin like to become even a little bit undead, and that the positive/holy/divine energy would interfere with the negative energy keeping the undead graft functional.
2. If he insists on going forward, let him do so. However, every time he uses positive/holy/divine spells, have the effect reduced (as the holy energy is divided between the spell and the graft) and the graft becomes damaged.
3. Ensure there is a fast and easy way to replace his living arm.

While I am sure this is not RAW, I do this kind of stuff to make things more interesting for the players. He may even carry it forward, using it as a quirky character trait. If he does this, reward him somehow.

Hope that helps.

[Khantalas]

I'd say it all depends on his deity...if say it was Lathander, I'd say no, if it was Kelemvor I'd probably say maybe. And then he's got to find someone to do it, it's not like he can just walk into a shop and say...see this dead arm, paste it onto me.

Kelemvor would never approve of any use of undead. He hates undead with a passion. He even has knights that hunt down undead.

[The_Snark]

Where is he going to get an undead graft, and who's going to graft it on to him? If Wee Jas is more a death goddess than necromancy, she's not as likely to have a follower that can craft it. And I can't see any other non-evil sources for a graft; even if your campaign has Ye Magick Shoppe in every major city, grafts are rare, as are people who can stick them on to you. A paladin wouldn't be able to take a graft from an evil source.

[Yechezkiel]

Here's a relevant blurb from Wiki:

"Wee Jas thinks of herself as a steward of the dead. Though she is a relatively benign death goddess, she has no problem with undead being created - as long as they are not reanimated against their will, and their remains are procured in a lawful manner. Wee Jas is unconcerned with questions of morality; if it can be done within the confines of the law, she will allow it."

[SadisticFishing]

Death still isn't undeath. Look in Complete Champion, Wee Jas' followers only raise undead as experiments, and never as a means to an end.

To Khantalas - good ideas, except he's not the greatest roleplayer (he's the tagalong of the group at this point, tbh, though he started with us).

Does it say anywhere in the RAW: " All paladins despise all undead." ...?

[Yechezkiel]

Where is he going to get an undead graft, and who's going to graft it on to him? If Wee Jas is more a death goddess than necromancy, she's not as likely to have a follower that can craft it. And I can't see any other non-evil sources for a graft; even if your campaign has Ye Magick Shoppe in every major city, grafts are rare, as are people who can stick them on to you. A paladin wouldn't be able to take a graft from an evil source.

Being a goddess of magic, Wee Jas has tons of Wizard followers, so finding Necromancers of Wee Jas (evil or not), wouldn't be unlikely.

[Tor the Fallen]

For whatever reason undead are evil, tell him an undead graft is evil for the same reason.
Or...
Is he a Paladin of Wee Jas? Because if he is, I'd let him take it. If he can find a non-evil grafter to do it for him.

[Yechezkiel]

For whatever reason undead are evil, tell him an undead graft is evil for the same reason.
Or...
Is he a Paladin of Wee Jas? Because if he is, I'd let him take it. If he can find a non-evil grafter to do it for him.

Ruby Knight Vindicator = Paladin of Wee Jas... maybe a lot of people responding to this thread were unaware of this.

[SadisticFishing]

Oopsies. Edited.

[martyboy74]

Interesting. I would give it to him, but change his ability to Turn Undead to the ability to Rebuke Undead. After all, all clerics of Wee Jas rebuke undead. Say that turning undead would mess with his graft. Just remember the rp dangers of rebuking undead if you're a paladin.

[Yechezkiel]

Interesting. I would give it to him, but change his ability to Turn Undead to the ability to Rebuke Undead. After all, all clerics of Wee Jas rebuke undead. Say that turning undead would mess with his graft. Just remember the rp dangers of rebuking undead if you're a paladin.

She is LN, why do all Clerics of Wee Jas rebuke now?

[WhammeWhamme]

Just allow it.

[Lemur]

But my opinion isn't that important, if I can't back it up well enough - which I can't.

Further clarification, are you sure you're the DM for this group?

Seriously, if you don't think it should fly, and you're the DM, then it doesn't have to. It's good to know that you try to treat your players fairly by paying attention to the rules, but your opinions should hold some weight of their own. Not to mention, the "rules as written" aren't always sufficient for managing a campaign.

Personally, I don't actually see a paladin with an undead graft as impossible, but the paladin would need a damn good reason for it. I wouldn't let someone like that just say, "hey, I want a zombie wang body part, when can I schedule an operation?" He'd either need to earn it somehow, or get stuck with one that gives the proper benefit, but gives an unanticipated drawback.

I'd do it this way, because a paladin with an undead graft strikes me as strange as well, but I like strange things so I wouldn't stop someone from going through with something bizarre if they really wanted to. Still, don't forget that as long as you're the DM, you get the final say in things like these. The guy can probably do just fine without a body part imbued with the power of unlife, so it's not like he's being screwed over or cheated out of anything. At level 20, he should already have nice things anyway.

[Yechezkiel]

Ash, Evil Dead.

I would use this as an excuse to make his hand go bad... see if he'll cut it off.:smallamused:

[SpiderBrigade]

Hmm, I think the only reason Wee Jas allows anything to do with undead (and the Death domain in general) is that she's a neutral goddess. Death magic tends towards evil, and creating undead is explicitly Evil in D&D. So a paladin really shouldn't be messing with it.

Of course, by default you shouldn't really be able to even have a paladin of Wee Jas, since she isn't Good. So there's some changing going on. Does this guy still have the same version of the Paladin's Code?

[Raltar]

you shouldn't really be able to even have a paladin of Wee Jas, since she isn't Good.

I'm pretty sure she is LN, which is one step from LG, so you can be a paladin of Wee Jas...just like you can have Paladins of Helm and Kelemvor.

[SadisticFishing]

And St. Cuthbert.

But, see, as the DM, I tend to try to make sure people are happy - but this just doesn't seem plausible. Undead are inherently evil, paladins have to be LG... It just doesn't add up. Is there a more fleshed out version of the code somewhere?

[Raltar]

For the record, I wouldn't allow it. Undead are almost universally evil, so I'm sure the graft would be as well.

[The_Snark]

What graft does he want, anyway? Look at the creation prerequisites. If there's an [evil] descriptor spell listed, then it's an evil magic item, and not something any paladin should have, Wee Jas or no. If not, it's a little fuzzier, and probably depends on the role of undead in your campaign.

[SurlySeraph]

This is the one single case when a paladin with an undead graft would be legitimate. I'd let him go through with it if (and only if) you allow him to find a) a Lawful Neutral/Good necromancer to give him the graft or b) a non-evil cleric of Wee Jas to give him the graft. If you want to deny him this, don't let him meet anyone like this. If you want to let him have the graft but pay for it, make it temporarily stop functioning whenever he turns undead (you figure out the duration). Also, if it's an arm, don't let him cast healing spells or use Lay on Hands with that arm. So if it's his off-hand and he's got a weapon in his main hand, require him to switch hands or put his weapon away so he can channel positive energy through the arm that isn't harmed by positive energy. This will make combat a lot trickier for him, by giving enemies 2 more attacks of opportunity (for sheathing his weapon and drawing it again) whenever he wants to heal someone.

[SadisticFishing]

In CCha, paladins are allowed to cast all spells as swift actions, so healing isn't that hard at all =\

[SadisticFishing]

What graft does he want, anyway? Look at the creation prerequisites. If there's an [evil] descriptor spell listed, then it's an evil magic item, and not something any paladin should have, Wee Jas or no. If not, it's a little fuzzier, and probably depends on the role of undead in your campaign.

Woah. <3 He even agreed with me this time! Thank you.

[Jarawara]

1. Explain that it is very un-paladin like to become even a little bit undead, and that the positive/holy/divine energy would interfere with the negative energy keeping the undead graft functional.
2. If he insists on going forward, let him do so. However, every time he uses positive/holy/divine spells, have the effect reduced (as the holy energy is divided between the spell and the graft) and the graft becomes damaged.
3. Ensure there is a fast and easy way to replace his living arm.

He may even carry it forward, using it as a quirky character trait. If he does this, reward him somehow.


I like this idea, and I'd take it one step further:

Each time he uses positive/holy/divine spells, the holy energy is divided between the spell and the graft, eventually enfusing and saturating the graft with holy energy. If he takes it as a quirky trait, playing with the downside effects of it, eventually reward him by having the arm become alive again, fully being a living (non-undead) arm, fully functional again. It might not match the rest of his body, but it'll have a hell of a story behind it.

Of course, then his powers won't be at half power, as he no longer has the drag of his 'undead' arm. In fact, it might even be enhanced, as the arm has been saturated with holy energy, and might be a bit of a storeroom for additional energy. It was an undead graft, now it's a living 'wand' with divine charges.

That'll take awhile before this all happens, but if he tolerated it that long, he earned it.

[ClericofPhwarrr]

I like this idea, and I'd take it one step further:

Each time he uses positive/holy/divine spells, the holy energy is divided between the spell and the graft, eventually enfusing and saturating the graft with holy energy. If he takes it as a quirky trait, playing with the downside effects of it, eventually reward him by having the arm become alive again, fully being a living (non-undead) arm, fully functional again. It might not match the rest of his body, but it'll have a hell of a story behind it.

Of course, then his powers won't be at half power, as he no longer has the drag of his 'undead' arm. In fact, it might even be enhanced, as the arm has been saturated with holy energy, and might be a bit of a storeroom for additional energy. It was an undead graft, now it's a living 'wand' with divine charges.

That'll take awhile before this all happens, but if he tolerated it that long, he earned it.

That is a very cool idea.

[Leon]

Ruby Knight Vindicator = Paladin of Wee Jas... maybe a lot of people responding to this thread were unaware of this.

No, Paladin of Wee Jas = Paladin of Wee Jas
Ruby Knight Vindicator = Divine/Martial Adept PrC of Wee Jass

While a Paladin Must be Lawful Good, His god need not be - as long as its Alignment is one Step away (LN or NG)


As to the graft: if its that big a issue on what its source is - make it a deathless creature that has provided the graft

[banjo1985]

I'd allow it, as it fits pretty well with the god, and it could make for some very good roleplaying opportunities. However, I agree with many others on this thread in that there really needs to be some form of drawback or change to the characters turn/rebuke undead powers and lay on hands etc. Maybe the undead arm could damage mortal evil creatures rather than a lay on hands ability or something.

I've seen something like this in a campaign some time ago, a paladin in our party went through a Demon Graft machine in the lower hells and came out with a huge red demon arm. Now that was dodgy, as demons really are inherently evil, rather than undead where the line can be a little more blurry. For some reason the GM let him do it. but I certainly wouldn't have done without him falling.

[Pestlepup]

Personally, I don't consider undead necessarily as inherently evil, but paladins with undead grafts is a bit dodgy concept. Putting aside for a moment the fact that the process would include channeling negative energy to animate the dead limb of some creature (probably other than the paladin's own, that is), fiddling with dark magics, while not necessarily evil in itself, would be too much of a gray area for any proper paladin to feel entirely comfortable in.

Then taking back the thing on the side, channeling negative energy into a paladin's body would be something of an anathema to his/her divine and holy nature. For a high enough level Greyguard, I'd consider it, though likely with some drawbacks or quirks. Still, as most of a paladin's class abilities directly or indirectly channel positive energy, it could be obstructive at best and destructive at worst to have an undead arm.

On a third note, even if the paladin got a neutral or good necromancer to graft the arm, where would the arm itself come from? Chop off a random peasant? Rob the nearest grave? Ask for volunteers? Slice it off an evil overlord? Whatever the case, mutilating corpses, mutilating live people or even mutilating living or dead nasties is still, if not outright immoral, at the very least highly disrespectful towards the individual and life in general. Even as paladins are required to treat even the foulest of blackguards with a minimum of mercy and respect (no torturing, humiliating, assassinating or killing unarmed, defenseless or surrendering enemies), so should they honor the remains of the fallen, and not treat them as handy accessories. And if he/she would want to cut off his/her own arm and reanimate it, I'd start to wonder to what lengths such a paladin would go to acquire more power. That for one would be a slippery road towards Fall.

On the fourth hand, there have been great suggestions on how to handle the graft, that if I wasn't personally so dead-set against the idea, I'd likely swipe a few of the best ideas and let the character go forward with it. Whatever rocks your boat.

[lord_khaine]

personaly i would just give the guy his graft, and let that be it, its not undead grafts doesnt allready cost an awfull lot of gold, giving it strange quirks and letting him pay full price for it is just silly.

for in the end, if it makes the player happy, and doesnt make him overpowered, why not just let him get it and move on with the campaign?

[Pestlepup]

for in the end, if it makes the player happy, and doesnt make him overpowered, why not just let him get it and move on with the campaign?

In my case? Because I feel it abuses the paladin concept. In other cases? No reason, I suppose. *shrug*

[martyboy74]

If you have enough downtime for the graft, the paladin could probobly donate his own arm to be undeadified.

[SadisticFishing]

In my case? Because I feel it abuses the paladin concept. In other cases? No reason, I suppose. *shrug*

QFT.

And undead grafts are relatively dirt cheap. 40,000 for +4 inherent bonus to strength? Sign me up. Also, 1d6 str penalty giving out twice a day is decent-ish too.

[Prometheus]

Under the classical definition of a Paladin, there is no Paladin of Wee Jas. If there is, than it is a LG variant of Wee Jas, which certainly wouldn't allow anything with negative energy to come near. I second those that would say it would be possible, but at a penalty (here's a more obvious one Ex-Paladin).

If he is any kind of Paladin that is not LG or can get around that kind of limitation, than sure, as long as he suffers the same kind of penalties for being on the dark-side if he tries light-side things.

[Leon]

Under the classical definition of a Paladin, there is no Paladin of Wee Jas. If there is, than it is a LG variant of Wee Jas, which certainly wouldn't allow anything with negative energy to come near. I second those that would say it would be possible, but at a penalty (here's a more obvious one Ex-Paladin).

If he is any kind of Paladin that is not LG or can get around that kind of limitation, than sure, as long as he suffers the same kind of penalties for being on the dark-side if he tries light-side things.

Whats the Classical defination of a Paladin - to me its the Holy Warrior bent on combating evil and doing good in the world, nothing from that edict stops a paladin from anything regarding Wee Jas.
If Wee Jas is going to have these issues then St Cuthbert certinaly shall have the same and he can have paladin followers

[Matthew]

Ermm... Is this game set in The Forgotten Realms or something? Paladins are Paladins no matter what Deity they support they can only do so in a Lawful Good way. Unless your Paladin is not a Paladin [i.e. a Paladin of Tyranny or whatever other variant] he has no business messing about with grafting Undead onto his body. Ask the Player why on earth he wants to do this. If it's 'cause it would be cool and powerful' you pretty much have your answer.

Saying that, I'm not familiar with 'Undead Grafts', so maybe they aren't that bad, but they sound very unpaladin like to me. In the end, if you want to allow it, allow it, if you think it's stupid don't allow it.

[Renegade Paladin]

I'd say it all depends on his deity...if say it was Lathander, I'd say no, if it was Kelemvor I'd probably say maybe. And then he's got to find someone to do it, it's not like he can just walk into a shop and say...see this dead arm, paste it onto me.
If it was Kelemvor, the answer should be hell no. There's pretty much nothing he hates more than the undead; he's not your average god of death. :smalltongue:

As for the undead graft on a paladin thing, I'm pretty sure they're almost all evil magic items. I'd have to check, but possessing one kind of doesn't fit there.

[fractal_uk]

Paladin: *lays on hands*
The Paladin's undead grafted arm explodes in a shower of holy radiance.
Paladin: "....Ooops...."

It really doesn't sound like a wise idea to me.

[banjo1985]

Paladin: *lays on hands*
The Paladin's undead grafted arm explodes in a shower of holy radiance.
Paladin: "....Ooops...."

It really doesn't sound like a wise idea to me.

Ooooo but think of the pretty lights it would make :smallbiggrin:

[Quirinus_Obsidian]

However, in your situation, I would do the following:
1. Explain that it is very un-paladin like to become even a little bit undead, and that the positive/holy/divine energy would interfere with the negative energy keeping the undead graft functional.


I agree with this. Negative Energy and Positive energy usually do not mix well; I would say no to this unless the character was a Blackguard instead of a straight up Paladin.

[AtomicKitKat]

Goryomaru (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goryomaru):smalltongue: