Help me understand when I get an Aoo

[Nosta]

so lately I've been posting a lot about my Aoo build but now I want to know what all triggers An AOO from me

I have Karmic Strike Robilar's Gambit and Martial stance: Thicket of Blade with those and the regular rules how many would trigger

I have A dex mod of 11 so I am curious with combat Reflexe how many Aoo could I pull of in a round if given the chance

[ComaVision]

Provoking an Attack of Opportunity
Two kinds of actions can provoke attacks of opportunity: moving out of a threatened square and performing an action within a threatened square.

Moving
Moving out of a threatened square usually provokes an attack of opportunity from the threatening opponent. There are two common methods of avoiding such an attack—the 5-foot step and the withdraw action.

Performing a Distracting Act
Some actions, when performed in a threatened square, provoke attacks of opportunity as you divert your attention from the battle. Actions in Combat notes many of the actions that provoke attacks of opportunity.

Remember that even actions that normally provoke attacks of opportunity may have exceptions to this rule.

Making an Attack of Opportunity
An attack of opportunity is a single melee attack, and you can only make one per round. You don’t have to make an attack of opportunity if you don’t want to.

An experienced character gets additional regular melee attacks (by using the full attack action), but at a lower attack bonus. You make your attack of opportunity, however, at your normal attack bonus—even if you’ve already attacked in the round.

An attack of opportunity "interrupts" the normal flow of actions in the round. If an attack of opportunity is provoked, immediately resolve the attack of opportunity, then continue with the next character’s turn (or complete the current turn, if the attack of opportunity was provoked in the midst of a character’s turn).

Combat Reflexes and Additional Attacks of Opportunity
If you have the Combat Reflexes feat you can add your Dexterity modifier to the number of attacks of opportunity you can make in a round. This feat does not let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity, but if the same opponent provokes two attacks of opportunity from you, you could make two separate attacks of opportunity (since each one represents a different opportunity). Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn’t count as more than one opportunity for that opponent. All these attacks are at your full normal attack bonus.

Do you want to know something that isn't explicitly stated in the text of the SRD or the feats/stance in question?

[Nosta]

Do you want to know something that isn't explicitly stated in the text of the SRD or the feats/stance in question?

well I have two questions

first with combat reflex and the following to feats Karmic Strike & Robilar's Gambit would I get two Aoo if my foe trys strike in melee and manages to connect with a blow?

also for thicket of blades what all do they mean by movement. moving from one square to another or any body movements down in a square I attack?

[ComaVision]

well I have two questions

first with combat reflex and the following to feats Karmic Strike & Robilar's Gambit would I get two Aoo if my foe trys strike in melee and manages to connect with a blow?
Yes, one AoO triggers from the attempt to attack and the other triggers when it lands.


also for thicket of blades what all do they mean by movement. moving from one square to another or any body movements down in a square I attack?

The primary function of Thicket is to get AoOs from movements that normally don't, namely 5 foot steps and withdraw actions.

[Red Fel]

You've made several different threads now, all asking for help with the same AoO build. (Which should have been one thread to begin with. This is a pattern.) And now you're saying you don't actually get AoOs?

Don't you think this should have been the first thing you asked? "Hey, guys, I'm thinking of building an AoO build. Can you tell me how AoOs work?" Aren't you three or four threads late to the game at this point, especially given that the DM has apparently already approved your build?

[Zombimode]

first with combat reflex and the following to feats Karmic Strike & Robilar's Gambit would I get two Aoo if my foe trys strike in melee and manages to connect with a blow?

No. Karmic Strike and Robilars Gambit overlap. If the condition for both are fulfilled, you would still only get one AoO because you a single action can always only provoke one AoO.

[Deadline]

No. Karmic Strike and Robilars Gambit overlap. If the condition for both are fulfilled, you would still only get one AoO because you a single action can always only provoke one AoO.

This is a point of contention for many people. Check with your DM to see how they want to resolve it. Some people treat attacking and hitting as two different triggers, and some treat it as only a single trigger.

[ComaVision]

No. Karmic Strike and Robilars Gambit overlap. If the condition for both are fulfilled, you would still only get one AoO because you a single action can always only provoke one AoO.

They have different triggers.


Some abilities allow you to make more than one attack of opportunity per round. Most such abilities, unless they say otherwise, don't let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity. If the same opponent provokes two attacks of opportunity from you, however, you could make two separate attacks of opportunity. Each provoking act represents a different opportunity. Multiple attacks of opportunity otherwise follow the rules for normal attacks of opportunity.

I'm unaware of rules text saying that a single action can't provoke multiple AoOs.

[Necromancy]

No. Karmic Strike and Robilars Gambit overlap. If the condition for both are fulfilled, you would still only get one AoO because you a single action can always only provoke one AoO.

This particular combo is hotly debated and basically is up to the DM whether he can use it.

For the record, most AOO builds are munchkinism of the highest order are are relatively boring for PC and DM both.

Also, with 11 dex you only get 1 AOO per round. Period

[Gallowglass]

well I have two questions

first with combat reflex and the following to feats Karmic Strike & Robilar's Gambit would I get two Aoo if my foe trys strike in melee and manages to connect with a blow?

also for thicket of blades what all do they mean by movement. moving from one square to another or any body movements down in a square I attack?

There is reasonable contention about whether Karmic Strike and Robilar's Gambit can be used at the same time. Why? Because Attacks of Opportunity are based on triggering events that are derived from discrete movements and both of these apply to the same discrete movement even though they both have slightly different language as to what is "triggering" the AoO.

So check with your GM if he's fine with you using both at the same time.

For my perspective, they stack, so I'll address them like they do. (Why? because you spent the feats and took the penalties, why NOT let them stack.)

You are now at -4 AC and the opponent has +4 to hit and +4 to damage. So its the equivalent of -8 to AC. ouch.

with a dexterity MODIFIER of 11 (meaning a dexterity score of 32 to 33) and combat reflexes you have up to 11 AoO a round. Now you just have to find the triggers to set them off.

When an opponent swings at you, Robilar's triggers (but you don't roll it until after he does his attack and damage)
When an opponent swings AND HITS you, Karmic strike triggers (and hits simultanously)

So every time you are melee or missile attacked by someone within your threatened range, you get to do one of the following.

Enemy Swings at you and HITS doing 18 damage
You simultaneously swing at him and HIT doing 9 damage (Karmic)
You then swing again ant hit doing 17 damage. (Robilars)

or

Enemy Swings at you and MISSES (seems unlikely with your -8 AC equivalence)
You swing at him doing 17 damage (Robilars)


Outside of that feat-driven interaction, you get additional AoO based on the enemy movement. If I remember from your numerous and repetitive prior threads, you have a reach weapon. Whatever your reach is, whenever an opponent moves OUT of a square you threaten you get an attack. You only get ONE attack per opponent per movement per this line: "Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn't count as more than one opportunity for that opponent." So if the guy runs around you exiting like 10 squares you threaten in a round, you still only get one attack for that guy's movement. Even if he moves through your space to an area outside your threatened area, then back in and out, still only one attack.

Normally you wouldn't get an attack if they moved using Withdraw or a 5' step, but with Thicket of Blades you do. I have seen an argument that thicket of blades overrides the rule of one attack per opponent per move action and lets you make multiple attacks of opportunity if they move out of multiple threatened squares. I don't find that to be a compelling argument.

[ComaVision]

Also, with 11 dex you only get 1 AOO per round. Period

Dex mod of 11.

[Deadline]

Dex mod of 11.

Which would mean he's got a Dex of ... 42?

[GnomishPride]

with a dexterity MODIFIER of 11 (meaning a dexterity score of 32 to 33) and combat reflexes you have up to 11 AoO a round. Now you just have to find the triggers to set them off.

Sorry to be a nitpicker but Combat Reflexes says an additional number of AoO's equal to your Dex mod; i.e. 1+Dex mod. Since their Dex mod is 11, they would get 12 AoO's per round.


Combat Reflexes [General]
Benefit
You may make a number of additional attacks of opportunity equal to your Dexterity bonus.

With this feat, you may also make attacks of opportunity while flat-footed.
(emphasis mine)

(Again, sorry to nitpick)

[Gallowglass]

Sorry to be a nitpicker but Combat Reflexes says an additional number of AoO's equal to your Dex mod; i.e. 1+Dex mod. Since their Dex mod is 11, they would get 12 AoO's per round.


(emphasis mine)

(Again, sorry to nitpick)

https://20prospect.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/barbie-hates-math-518x274.png?

<--- this time entirely self-directed.

[Necromancy]

Oh 11 mod? They tossing a green player straight into high levels?

[Zombimode]

I'm unaware of rules text saying that a single action can't provoke multiple AoOs.

Hm, after rereading the relevant sections this is only made explicit for moving out of a threatened square:

Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn’t count as more than one opportunity for that opponent.

Eh, for my table I stand by my ruling, but I guess it's not clear cut RAW.

[Nosta]

This particular combo is hotly debated and basically is up to the DM whether he can use it.

For the record, most AOO builds are munchkinism of the highest order are are relatively boring for PC and DM both.

Also, with 11 dex you only get 1 AOO per round. Period

my dex is 32 my mod is 11 my friend

[Troacctid]

Hm, after rereading the relevant sections this is only made explicit for moving out of a threatened square:


Eh, for my table I stand by my ruling, but I guess it's not clear cut RAW.

A single action can definitely provoke multiple opportunity attacks—consider a character who uses a full attack action to make multiple sunder attacks without Improved Sunder, for example.

[Necromancy]

A single action can definitely provoke multiple opportunity attacks—consider a character who uses a full attack action to make multiple sunder attacks without Improved Sunder, for example.

Not too sure how that works.....

[Divide by Zero]

You've made several different threads now, all asking for help with the same AoO build. (Which should have been one thread to begin with. This is a pattern.) And now you're saying you don't actually get AoOs?

Don't you think this should have been the first thing you asked? "Hey, guys, I'm thinking of building an AoO build. Can you tell me how AoOs work?" Aren't you three or four threads late to the game at this point, especially given that the DM has apparently already approved your build?

Additionally, you haven't responded to most of the advice people have given. It's not clear whether you're choosing to ignore the advice or just haven't seen it - if the latter is the case, it would likely be solved by sticking to a single thread, and if the former is the case, explaining why you're choosing to ignore the advice would go a long way toward helping people figure out what exactly you're trying to go for.

[DarkSoul]

Dex Modifier of 11 = 12 AoO per round with Combat Reflexes.

Thicket of Blades: When someone makes any kind of square-to-square movement in the area you threaten, it provokes an AoO from you.

Karmic Strike: When you are struck by a melee attack or melee touch attack, the attacker provokes an AoO from you. Each time you're struck is a different opportunity in the case of multiple attacks striking you in a round.

Robilar's Gambit: When you are attacked in melee (not necessarily struck) the attacker provokes an AoO from you "each time they swing." The quoted phrase is directly from the book text of the feat, with my emphasis.

Now remember that AoO's for movement are provoked by leaving a threatened square, not entering one. If you have a 5' reach, someone running into melee range and attacking you will not provoke an AoO from Thicket of Blades, but will provoke one from Robilar's Gambit every time they attack you. If they actually hit you with any of their attacks, Karmic Strike grants you an AoO for each hit they land.

With 10' or more reach, this same attacker will provoke an AoO from you for their movement as they move from 10' out to adjacent to you, because they leave a threatened square. They'll only provoke one from movement, however. You won't get one AoO for every threatened square they leave, you just get one for their movement.

The next round, once they realize what a bad idea it is to attack you in melee, they'll likely try to move away. If they try the Withdraw action, which normally treats the square they're in at the start of their move as not being threatened by you, Thicket of Blades overrides that and you can take an AoO when they leave their initial square. Similarly, if anyone you threaten tries to take a 5' step such as to move into a flanking position, they provoke an AoO as well due to Thicket of Blades.

One thing to keep in mind is the Spring Attack feat. That will be up to DM interpretation because it's pitting two exceptions to the rules against each other. Be prepared for your DM to say that movement via Spring Attack doesn't provoke AoO's, even from Thicket of Blades.

[Darrin]

This seems apropos: As Simple As Calculus (http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=792).

[Barbarian Horde]

http://s33.postimg.org/5nu6n9nn3/Attack_of_oppurtunity.jpg
Hope it helps

[Nosta]

Dex Modifier of 11 = 12 AoO per round with Combat Reflexes.

Thicket of Blades: When someone makes any kind of square-to-square movement in the area you threaten, it provokes an AoO from you.

Karmic Strike: When you are struck by a melee attack or melee touch attack, the attacker provokes an AoO from you. Each time you're struck is a different opportunity in the case of multiple attacks striking you in a round.

Robilar's Gambit: When you are attacked in melee (not necessarily struck) the attacker provokes an AoO from you "each time they swing." The quoted phrase is directly from the book text of the feat, with my emphasis.

Now remember that AoO's for movement are provoked by leaving a threatened square, not entering one. If you have a 5' reach, someone running into melee range and attacking you will not provoke an AoO from Thicket of Blades, but will provoke one from Robilar's Gambit every time they attack you. If they actually hit you with any of their attacks, Karmic Strike grants you an AoO for each hit they land.

With 10' or more reach, this same attacker will provoke an AoO from you for their movement as they move from 10' out to adjacent to you, because they leave a threatened square. They'll only provoke one from movement, however. You won't get one AoO for every threatened square they leave, you just get one for their movement.

The next round, once they realize what a bad idea it is to attack you in melee, they'll likely try to move away. If they try the Withdraw action, which normally treats the square they're in at the start of their move as not being threatened by you, Thicket of Blades overrides that and you can take an AoO when they leave their initial square. Similarly, if anyone you threaten tries to take a 5' step such as to move into a flanking position, they provoke an AoO as well due to Thicket of Blades.

One thing to keep in mind is the Spring Attack feat. That will be up to DM interpretation because it's pitting two exceptions to the rules against each other. Be prepared for your DM to say that movement via Spring Attack doesn't provoke AoO's, even from Thicket of Blades.

ok thanks this help make things clear.
now I have knock back and improved trip
along with using a great spear.

what would you recommend on my great spear.
lets say I have 60k gp to spend on it

[Nosta]

http://s33.postimg.org/5nu6n9nn3/Attack_of_oppurtunity.jpg
Hope it helps

it dose but it be better if my dm used graph paper like that to show were were postion on the battle area lol

[Nosta]

Additionally, you haven't responded to most of the advice people have given. It's not clear whether you're choosing to ignore the advice or just haven't seen it - if the latter is the case, it would likely be solved by sticking to a single thread, and if the former is the case, explaining why you're choosing to ignore the advice would go a long way toward helping people figure out what exactly you're trying to go for.


my bad not trying to ignore any one
and I make many threads cause I make them as my questions pop in to my head

see i'm not sure when this game will start as its a side story to the main one I am that we will play when two of the players can't make it to the sessions.

I just never did an aoo build and I need some ways to show my DM who dose not use aoo in his own builds most of time when my character would get an Aoo and we figure most people here having been playing for a heck of a lot longer than us . so we figure people here would understand the rules better.

[Necromancy]

A single action can definitely provoke multiple opportunity attacks—consider a character who uses a full attack action to make multiple sunder attacks without Improved Sunder, for example.

Sunder is a standard action. Full attack sunder may or may not exist in some form of feat cheese, but if it does, I guarantee imp sunder is a prerequisite



I'm unaware of rules text saying that a single action can't provoke multiple AoOs.

The rule you're looking for is here



Combat Reflexes and Additional Attacks of Opportunity

If you have the Combat Reflexes feat you can add your Dexterity modifier to the number of attacks of opportunity you can make in a round. This feat does not let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity, but if the same opponent provokes two attacks of opportunity from you, you could make two separate attacks of opportunity (since each one represents a different opportunity). Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn’t count as more than one opportunity for that opponent. All these attacks are at your full normal attack bonus.



ok thanks this help make things clear.
now I have knock back and improved trip
along with using a great spear.

what would you recommend on my great spear.
lets say I have 60k gp to spend on it

Deja frickin Vu. I can see where this is headed. Perhaps I can point you to it

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?481845-unbalanced-team

[Deadline]

The rule you're looking for is here

Combat Reflexes and Additional Attacks of Opportunity

If you have the Combat Reflexes feat you can add your Dexterity modifier to the number of attacks of opportunity you can make in a round. This feat does not let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity, but if the same opponent provokes two attacks of opportunity from you, you could make two separate attacks of opportunity (since each one represents a different opportunity). Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn’t count as more than one opportunity for that opponent. All these attacks are at your full normal attack bonus.

That doesn't refute a single action creating multiple opportunities, and it's not as clear cut as you want it to sound, especially if you were to bold the rest of the very same sentence you bolded(see above). Karmic Strike means the opponent provokes an AoO if they hit you. Robilar's Gambit means they provoke if they make an attack against you (whether they hit or not is irrelevant). Two different opportunities provoking two different AoO.

But again, we could go 'round and 'round on this, as I'm sure you are aware.

[Ruethgar]

The rule you're looking for is here

Combat Reflexes and Additional Attacks of Opportunity

If you have the Combat Reflexes feat you can add your Dexterity modifier to the number of attacks of opportunity you can make in a round. This feat does not let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity, but if the same opponent provokes two attacks of opportunity from you, you could make two separate attacks of opportunity (since each one represents a different opportunity). Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn’t count as more than one opportunity for that opponent. All these attacks are at your full normal attack bonus.


This does not prohibit the same actions triggering multiple AoO, it only prevents single opportunities from provoking. So if you, for some reason, had two iterations of or variations of Karmic Strike and got hit, you couldn't use multiple AoO from the opportunity of getting hit. However attacking can easily be seen as a separate opportunity from getting hit. Think the master swordsman making immediate counter attacks against the fighter with bad form vs the gamble of taking the sword in the gut so you can get in close enough for a strike.

[Necromancy]

I'm aware, I learned not to argue this build in the linked thread. I was just linking the relevant ruling others were trying to find.

It's all murky language and bad splatbooks. Basically it's up to the DM how much cheese he likes on his player sandwich.

I will not bend on this point however, I don't care what knock back feat says, you must use trip weapons to make trip attacks and the feat does NOT specify that you can ignore this rule.

[ComaVision]

I'm aware, I learned not to argue this build in the linked thread. I was just linking the relevant ruling others were trying to find.

I said I was unaware of any rules text forbidding a single ACTION from triggering multiple AoOs. I literally quoted a passage that stated you can't get multiple AoOs from a single OPPORTUNITY.


I will not bend on this point however, I don't care what knock back feat says, you must use trip weapons to make trip attacks and the feat does NOT specify that you can ignore this rule.

Knock-Down feat? There's also nothing in the feat that says you need to use the same weapon to trip that you struck with. Unless you're using a reach weapon that isn't a tripping weapon, it's a moot point because you could just trip with an unarmed strike.

[Malimar]

Sunder is a standard action. Full attack sunder may or may not exist in some form of feat cheese, but if it does, I guarantee imp sunder is a prerequisite

Nowhere does it say sundering is a standard action.


You can use a melee attack with a slashing or bludgeoning weapon to strike a weapon or shield that your opponent is holding. If you’re attempting to sunder a weapon or shield, follow the steps outlined here. (Attacking held objects other than weapons or shields is covered below.)

It's a melee attack, and can therefore be used in place of any other melee attack, including in a full attack action. This makes it like Disarm and Trip (which also say "melee attack") but different from Feint, Overrun, and Bull Rush (which do specify "standard action").

[Necromancy]

I said I was unaware of any rules text forbidding a single ACTION from triggering multiple AoOs. I literally quoted a passage that stated you can't get multiple AoOs from a single OPPORTUNITY.



Knock-Down feat? There's also nothing in the feat that says you need to use the same weapon to trip that you struck with. Unless you're using a reach weapon that isn't a tripping weapon, it's a moot point because you could just trip with an unarmed strike.

If you're using unarmed strikes to trip then you're attacking, probably without proficiency, at a much lower bonus. Still there's a rules gap here and saying it works because no rule specifically says it doesn't will not convince everyone you're right. Pathfinder knew this problem existed and their rules say flat out that you're using the weapon you attacked with, and you even use the same roll for that attack.

I know you have to suspend disbelief a bit when playing these games but why don't you roll up an attack round using these feats the way you think they work and see exactly how many attack rolls you're making in a 6 second round. If you want to play the flash, you're using the wrong system.



Nowhere does it say sundering is a standard action.



It's a melee attack, and can therefore be used in place of any other melee attack, including in a full attack action. This makes it like Disarm and Trip (which also say "melee attack") but different from Feint, Overrun, and Bull Rush (which do specify "standard action").

It says it right on the table for standard actions.

[Malimar]

It says it right on the table for standard actions.

That table also lists "Attack (melee)", "Attack (unarmed)", and "Attack (ranged)". Obviously these actions also cannot be incorporated into full attacks, then.

Also, text trumps table.

[Necromancy]

That table also lists "Attack (melee)", "Attack (unarmed)", and "Attack (ranged)". Obviously these actions also cannot be incorporated into full attacks, then.

Also, text trumps table.

Attacks ARE standard actions

Full attacks are their own deal

Text does trump table IF it actually disagrees with it