1st Edition Cleric Spell casting question

[Yogibear41]

The 1st edition DMG states that Clerics cast 1st and 2nd level spells from their training alone, get 3rd, 4th, and 5th from servants of their deity, and 6th and 7th from their deity itself.

The DMG lists the "sevants as angels, demi-gods, or whatever"

I was curious if this area was ever expanded upon in other books, to be able to more precisely identify which servants were capable of granting spells.

[CE DM]

not per se, but it is demons, devils, devas, wind dukes, the water dwarf (Ahto), the celestial bureaucracy (oni), spirits, etc

[Yogibear41]

Right, I was just trying to see how powerful one had to particularly be, for example a LE deity, I assume something as lowly as an Imp would not grant spells, but would it necessarily take something as strong as a Pit Fiend? Or could one of the mid ranking Devils grant spells?

[CE DM]

you could rule minor demons/lesser devils, etc, do the L3 spells, and greater devils/major demons, etc, do L4 spells, and so forth. A rigid hierarchy or specific creatures for specific spells/spell levels makes most sense for lawful types, and the least for chaotic ones. It's also worth noting, that unlike in d20, creatures do NOT map up just by alignment. Few LE deities command devils; most do not. spirits (dead followers, often with various names by mythos) & "lowly" monsters or unlisted minor creatures, such as animal or geographic spirits, or Empusa for Hecate, minor gods, etc, all are options. Ares won't have demons or quazits, he has Diemos, Phobos, Enyo, Eris...and probably his other offspring, even if merely their shades (spirits) & so forth. It depends how deep you want to get into it, in the case of RW based myths. Made for D&D gawds will probably use the alignment coded planar races & D&D monsters more, although making up a few demi gods or servant types is hardly unusual or unexpected either.

a fairly "low" extra planar type could deliver a spell, if desired; after all, humans certainly are lowly, and can handle strong magics. If Athena wants to deliver spells via owls (or owl type creatures), she probably can. (although there are more options for her too, of course)

[Yogibear41]

Cool, I never really liked the idea of X deity controls X outsiders because their alignments match up, especially demons and devils, I always thought they worked better as just another force out there striving for their own needs/desires, but it does make things easier just matching them up by alignment lots of the time. As far as for me deciding its not really my decisions its for a game I play in. We use 3.5 but we base alot of stuff back off of 1st edition rules, kinda of a 3.5 rules 1st edition feel sort of game in some ways. One of the big rules that relates back to 1st is that all divine magic comes from the deities (we do have an exception for druids/rangers who can get their power from nature, or from a nature god). Falling back on the 1st edition rules a "fake" cleric/paladin can cast 1st and 2nd level spells if he has sufficient training to do so, but can cast no higher.

In our setting there is one particular evil god that is universally despised by all the deities both good and evil, and thousands of years ago they even worked together to imprison the god because of the havoc he was unleashing on the world. I am trying to work on a character who was trained to be an Anti-Paladin of this Deity and work toward helping release him back into the world, but for various in character reasons I was going to have him more or less tell the "dark god" and his other minions if you will to screw off, thus becoming an X-Anti-Paladin who is working to oppose his release. I want him to stay as an Anti-Paladin because he is still a very much evil character who has his own goals and desires, but I don't think it would fit the character well to go devote himself to another deity just to gain back his power, but I could see him making a bargain with a devil, or even trying to capture/imprison a devil and use it as a battery for lack of a better word to fuel his powers. Granted I'm not really sure how I would pull the latter off with little to no magical power.

I am basically here "fishing for ideas" that I could use when I discuss this character with my DM and possible solutions to this problem. At the end of the day I might end up just having to find another deity or play a fighter instead :smallsmile:


While I am on the topic, another things comes to mind, the DMG gives info on the spells for clerics/paladins, in that they can still cast 1st and 2nd level spells through their own power alone, but what of their other abilities?

For instance can the cleric still turn/rebuke undead, can the paladin still lay on hands? etc. Is their any mention of those situations in 1st edition books?
The 1st edition PHB says the Paladin loses his abilities if he performs an evil act, but it doesn't really talk about if he stays good and just abandons his deity, not to mention Anti-Paladins are a little bit more than just the opposite of paladins, at least IMO, so what applies to the Paladin might not apply in a reciprocal way to the Anti-Paladin, or it maybe more lax in nature.