What level would this spell be?

[Clistenes]

I'm thinking of creating a homebrew spell that allows the caster to locate the nearest soul in the Plane or Crystal Sphere he or she is when she casts the spell. It tells you the direction and distance from you it is, its alignment, and if it is alive, dead, undead/deathless (it doesn't discriminate between those) or outsider/elemental (it doesn't discriminate between those), and if it is an sentient creature or not.

The information given would be "incarnated soul" for living beings, "disincarnated soul" for ghosts and spirits, "undead" for undead, deathless and beings like golems that contain trapped spirits or souls, "homogeneous beings" for beings whose body and soul are the same like outsiders and elementals (but not for native outsiders), plus alignment, sentience, direction and distance.

There is no distance limit, but it doesn't work across planar boundaries.

So, what level do you think this spell should be?

[MisterKaws]

Considering that it'll usually locate a mosquito or something, I'd say 3 just because of the potential abuse.

[Âmesang]

My first thought is that it shares many of the same qualities as the 8th-level spell, discern location, but it does have its limitations—not working across planes and being focused solely on creatures with no attention paid to objects.

DISCERN LOCATION
Divination
Level: Cleric 8, Knowledge 8, Sorcerer/Wizard 8
Components: V, S, DF
Casting Time: 10 minutes
Range: Unlimited
Target: One creature or object
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

A discern location spell is among the most powerful means of locating creatures or objects. Nothing short of a mind blank spell or the direct intervention of a deity keeps you from learning the exact location of a single individual or object. Discern location circumvents normal means of protection from scrying or location. The spell reveals the name of the creature or object’s location (place, name, business name, building name, or the like), community, county (or similar political division), country, continent, and the plane of existence where the target lies.

To find a creature with the spell, you must have seen the creature or have some item that once belonged to it. To find an object, you must have touched it at least once.
Perhaps it could be used as a comparison?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Won't that just ping the other members of your party most of the time?

[MisterKaws]

Won't that just ping the other members of your party most of the time?

If it doesn't ping some bacteriae first.

[MesiDoomstalker]

If it doesn't ping some bacteriae first.

Bacteria have souls!?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Bacteria have souls!?

I'm reasonably certain that bacteria aren't even a thing in D&D-verse. The ability of dragons to crossbreed with anything, fire elementals to breed at all (half-elemental template), and that disease cares nothing at all for species boundaries, Make me more than comfortable throwing out microbiology as a thing altogether in D&D.

Funny thing about D&D; the more science you know, the more holes you find, and the less sense it makes to apply anything deeper than base newtonian physics.

[Âmesang]

Come to think of it, isn't this a lot like the dread wraiths' lifesense ability?

[Clistenes]

Won't that just ping the other members of your party most of the time?

I guess so. Maybe I should rewrite so you can choose to ignore beings you are already aware of? Also, you would be able to choose to ignore one or more of the kinds of beings it can detect (for example, you could tell the spell to ignore "incarnated souls" or "homogeneous beings" or "non-sentient beings").

The reason I made the spell so vague is to avoid it being too poweful. The idea behind the spell was to seek life (or unlife) in mostly deserted planes (like, you are seeking somebody in the Quasi-Elemental Plane of Vacuum or in the Astral or in the Ethereal and cast the spell in order to find the nearest being around.

[Melcar]

I'm thinking of creating a homebrew spell that allows the caster to locate the nearest soul in the Plane or Crystal Sphere he or she is when she casts the spell. It tells you the direction and distance from you it is, its alignment, and if it is alive, dead, undead/deathless (it doesn't discriminate between those) or outsider/elemental (it doesn't discriminate between those), and if it is an sentient creature or not.

The information given would be "incarnated soul" for living beings, "disincarnated soul" for ghosts and spirits, "undead" for undead, deathless and beings like golems that contain trapped spirits or souls, "homogeneous beings" for beings whose body and soul are the same like outsiders and elementals (but not for native outsiders), plus alignment, sentience, direction and distance.

There is no distance limit, but it doesn't work across planar boundaries.

So, what level do you think this spell should be?

5 I would say.

But I think you need to be very precice what it looks for. An undead with a sould? Not going to find many of them. A lich has its soul locked away in a phylactery. And most if not all, of the mindless dont have one. So effectively undead souls are the ghosts and spririts or spectres. Be very precise how you determine the categories.


EDIT:
I guess so. Maybe I should rewrite so you can choose to ignore beings you are already aware of? Also, you would be able to choose to ignore one or more of the kinds of beings it can detect (for example, you could tell the spell to ignore "incarnated souls" or "homogeneous beings" or "non-sentient beings").

The reason I made the spell so vague is to avoid it being too poweful. The idea behind the spell was to seek life (or unlife) in mostly deserted planes (like, you are seeking somebody in the Quasi-Elemental Plane of Vacuum or in the Astral or in the Ethereal and cast the spell in order to find the nearest being around.

Why not just make it ping a sentient being. Sure that would rule out some mindless beings, but how interested are you in finding those anyways?

[Clistenes]

5 I would say.

But I think you need to be very precice what it looks for. An undead with a sould? Not going to find many of them. A lich has its soul locked away in a phylactery. And most if not all, of the mindless dont have one. So effectively undead souls are the ghosts and spririts or spectres. Be very precise how you determine the categories.

Well, there are Ghouls, Ghasts, Vampires, Wights and Mummies, all of which have their soul trapped inside. That's the reason I put sentient corporeal Undead, Deathless and Golems together: All of them have a soul or spirit trapped inside with magic.



Why not just make it ping a sentient being. Sure that would rule out some mindless beings, but how interested are you in finding those anyways?

Yes, I think I will do that, but I still need to make the spell ignore creatures the caster is aware of, in order to avoid it pointing to the rest of the party...

Do you think it would still be level 5?

[Melcar]

Well, there are Ghouls, Ghasts, Vampires, Wights and Mummies, all of which have their soul trapped inside. That's the reason I put sentient corporeal Undead, Deathless and Golems together: All of them have a soul or spirit trapped inside with magic.

Personally I have never read that golems have souls. Could you refrence that?




Yes, I think I will do that, but I still need to make the spell ignore creatures the caster is aware of, in order to avoid it pointing to the rest of the party...

Do you think it would still be level 5?

Shape spell meta-magic, or mastery of shaping Archmage ability is your friend!

EDIT: If you remove the ability to discern all the different races as I suggest and only have it ping sentient beings I would bump it down to 3 i think.

[frogglesmash]

Personally I have never read that golems have souls. Could you refrence that?


The animating force for a golem is a spirit from the Elemental Plane of Earth.

So the golem itself doesn't have a soul, but the thing powering it probably does.

[Melcar]

So the golem itself doesn't have a soul, but the thing powering it probably does.

Thats wierd... beacuse the craft construct feat mentions nothing about that needed to enchant it (the spirit)... it would seem to me, that the animation spirit is nothing more than fluff. Albeit that might very well be relevant.

[Clistenes]

Personally I have never read that golems have souls. Could you refrence that?

The fluff says that golems use bound elementals as animating force, so there is an elemental spirit inside.


EDIT: If you remove the ability to discern all the different races as I suggest and only have it ping sentient beings I would bump it down to 3 i think.

Thank you.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

My suggestion is that the caster can choose to ignore the existence of any creatures of its choice that it is aware of within the Area of Effect so that the spell doesn't ping on them.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

My suggestion is that the caster can choose to ignore the existence of any creatures of its choice that it is aware of within the Area of Effect so that the spell doesn't ping on them.

This. But only individual creatures. No saying "I exclude all zombies".

I'd also consider letting it only ping intelligent/awakened/sentient/aware/whatever word you prefer creatures. No bacteria, no mosquitos, no surprise owlbear that's sitting right behind that tree over there.

The biggest "problem"/balance issue I can see with this spell is that it trivializes many ambushes. That's way more potentially disrupting to the game than the ability to find creepy quest givers in a dense fog. At what spell level do you usually get spells that do roughly the same ruining ambushes thing? That might be the spell level you want.

[Melcar]

The fluff says that golems use bound elementals as animating force, so there is an elemental spirit inside.



Thank you.

Indeed... however it is not mentioned by the construction rules, thus meaning that you dont actually have to put one in, meaning that either not all golems are fueled by spirits, or the fluff is from an older edition where things were different. It could also be that the constructing rules are wrong, but I would take the rule text over fluff text, but I would ofc leave that in the hands of any DM.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Indeed... however it is not mentioned by the construction rules, thus meaning that you dont actually have to put one in, meaning that either not all golems are fueled by spirits, or the fluff is from an older edition where things were different. It could also be that the constructing rules are wrong, but I would take the rule text over fluff text, but I would ofc leave that in the hands of any DM.Or the animating spirit is part of the golem's base price.

I can't imagine they're terribly cheap.

[frogglesmash]

Indeed... however it is not mentioned by the construction rules, thus meaning that you dont actually have to put one in, meaning that either not all golems are fueled by spirits, or the fluff is from an older edition where things were different. It could also be that the constructing rules are wrong, but I would take the rule text over fluff text, but I would ofc leave that in the hands of any DM.

Or it could be that the spells used in construction are what summon and bind the spirit to the golem.

[Clistenes]

This. But only individual creatures. No saying "I exclude all zombies".

I'd also consider letting it only ping intelligent/awakened/sentient/aware/whatever word you prefer creatures. No bacteria, no mosquitos, no surprise owlbear that's sitting right behind that tree over there.

The biggest "problem"/balance issue I can see with this spell is that it trivializes many ambushes. That's way more potentially disrupting to the game than the ability to find creepy quest givers in a dense fog. At what spell level do you usually get spells that do roughly the same ruining ambushes thing? That might be the spell level you want.

I dunno... If we remove the ability of the spell to tell alignment and nature (undead, outsider...etc.) of the souls it detects, it gives little information... Detect Thoughts (lvl 2) has a range of 60 ft only, but it reveals a lot of information. Clairvoyance (lvl 3) has quite a long range and gives a lot of information too.

[Timble]

Perhaps lv3 with a lower level spell that has the same or similar effect but limited range.

[Melcar]

Check out Locate City... Mirror your spell after that, and have it find sentient beings. And keep it fairly low level. Or make it higher level, at have et use a different focus depending on what you try to find. Bone for undead, ectoplasm for incorporeal, a gear for golems ect. Bump that to around 5 or 6 and you're good to go.

If you insisted on the spell not detecting your allies, you could have it start detecting from 30 feet out. That would mean your allies could get close to you and not get detected, and so would a potential enemy. That way the spell is not a press enter to win (detect all) spell.

[Quertus]

Thats wierd... beacuse the craft construct feat mentions nothing about that needed to enchant it (the spirit)... it would seem to me, that the animation spirit is nothing more than fluff. Albeit that might very well be relevant.


Or it could be that the spells used in construction are what summon and bind the spirit to the golem.

This is the way I understood it, from earlier editions. Yes, golem crafters are, unknowingly, the worst kind of slavers. When my signature character found out, he was horrified, and has been working on ways to fix the problem (like researching techniques to locate willing animating spirits) ever since. Some day, he might finish his research and go on tour, explaining the horror of the current situation, and proposing remedies. Until then,

Destroy a golem. Free a slave.

[Melcar]

This is the way I understood it, from earlier editions. Yes, golem crafters are, unknowingly, the worst kind of slavers. When my signature character found out, he was horrified, and has been working on ways to fix the problem (like researching techniques to locate willing animating spirits) ever since. Some day, he might finish his research and go on tour, explaining the horror of the current situation, and proposing remedies. Until then,

Destroy a golem. Free a slave.

I just find it wierd, that one could have no casting abilities to summon and bind the spirit and yet be able to animate the golem. I had never read the part concerning the bound spirit before I read this thread, and thought that it was simply fueled by magic. That would fit the reason for it being immune to most magic. Now that its a spirit, I would want to know what spirit and fit the immunities acordingly.

If it indeed is a spirit, that fuels the golem then would freedom not set it free thus disable the golem?

[frogglesmash]

I just find it wierd, that one could have no casting abilities to summon and bind the spirit and yet be able to animate the golem. I had never read the part concerning the bound spirit before I read this thread, and thought that it was simply fueled by magic. That would fit the reason for it being immune to most magic. Now that its a spirit, I would want to know what spirit and fit the immunities acordingly.

If it indeed is a spirit, that fuels the golem then would freedom not set it free thus disable the golem?

As I understand it, the spells used in an item's creation are actually just one part of a very complex ritual which is why so many items have abilities that don't match up 100% with the spells used to create them.