Belkar's prophesy

[paladinofshojo]

As we all know, the Oracle siad yes to Belkar when he asked if he was able to cuase the death of Miko, Miko's "stupid" horse, Vaasruvias, Roy, or the Oracle himself. Technically, Belkar already fulfilled the prophesy when he gave Roy his ring of jumping. Since it allowed Roy to face Xykon (and get his ass pawned by the undead lich), Belkar technically "caused" Roy's death.

[moscatabaco]

Could be... actually, that IS the case. Not exactly what Belkar meant to ask, but that's the oracle for you.

[SPOILER]

Incidentally, this does mean that Durkon may return to his home after being killed AND raised!

[Basalock]

This has all been said before :smalltongue:

[holywhippet]

You could argue that Belkar is responsible for Miko's death as well. Part of the reason for her erratic behaviour is his goading. She even said that she dislikes Roy for siding with Belkar.

It's even possible that he will be in some way responsible for all of them - although Windstriker is a hard target to kill. Being extraplanar he will return to the celestial realms if he is "killed" in the prime material plane. To truly finish him off, Belkar would need to kill him in his home plane and I can't see Belkar being welcome there.

[Icewalker]

ARG

1. Mentioned a million times
2. IMO that is vague, and not funny, and therefore nothing like The Giant's writing. I expect something far better to come of the prophecies.

Also, you misspelled prophecy in the title.

[Kreistor]

AS stated above, there is significant debate on whether Belkar providing the ring counts as a "cause".

Personally, I feel that such a definition can extend to every single being Roy had ever met becoming the "cause" of his death, since if that one person had not interacted in exactly that way with Roy, Roy would not have wound up in that situation.

I also feel that when it does come true, the Giant will make certain no one has any doubt at all that it occured, since Belkar will be celebrating his success in very loud ways. Belkar hasn't even flinched at Roys' death.

[EyethatBinds]

Sadly, the oracle has also been killed now indirectly by Belkar. Little did most realize it but the skull...
Is actually from the 'polymorph any object'd' body of the kobold oracle in the sunken valley
While the comic doesn't come right out and say this it is fairly clear through subtext and the way Redcloak's eyes look upward slightly in panel #4 of comic #431. Since Belkar tricked Haley into smashing the skull he clearly caused the death of yet another, albeit indirectly.

[Dunamin]

It's even possible that he will be in some way responsible for all of them - although Windstriker is a hard target to kill. Being extraplanar he will return to the celestial realms if he is "killed" in the prime material plane. To truly finish him off, Belkar would need to kill him in his home plane and I can't see Belkar being welcome there.
The extraplanar subtype does not convey that ability, although it's true that some creatures that are extraplanar in relation to the Material Plane does not remain dead if killed there (including baatezu devils and tanar'ri demons).
If a paladin's mount is killed, it's simply dead. However, they are hard to kill if serving as a mount, because the paladin can dismiss them as a free action back to their celestial realms, which triggers their recovery.

[toughluck]

Obviously, however, as of now, neither Miko or her horse are within Belkar's reach. Miko's dead so her horse won't visit the prime unless she returns to life, and not only that, but as a paladin.

Assuming Roy will be raised and Vaarsuvius is still alive, that makes it possible for Belkar to kill either.

Which one will it be and how, is up to Rich. And while we wait, we can speculate :smallwink:

[Elfanatic]

Sadly, the oracle has also been killed now indirectly by Belkar. Little did most realize it but the skull...
Is actually from the 'polymorph any object'd' body of the kobold oracle in the sunken valley
While the comic doesn't come right out and say this it is fairly clear through subtext and the way Redcloak's eyes look upward slightly in panel #4 of comic #431. Since Belkar tricked Haley into smashing the skull he clearly caused the death of yet another, albeit indirectly.

Humorous though that image is, Belkar did not trick Haley. He wanted to keep the skull. And who can blame him? Skullsy mother was a Swiss army-knife, and his father a portable laptop. Alltough, rumour is that his mother slept around with the bidet...

[Big Bug Basher]

Sadly, the oracle has also been killed now indirectly by Belkar. Little did most realize it but the skull...
Is actually from the 'polymorph any object'd' body of the kobold oracle in the sunken valley
While the comic doesn't come right out and say this it is fairly clear through subtext and the way Redcloak's eyes look upward slightly in panel #4 of comic #431. Since Belkar tricked Haley into smashing the skull he clearly caused the death of yet another, albeit indirectly.

How do you mean? i don't understand how you think that as if it were the Oricle he would know that that would happen and thus would not have been stupid and put himself in danger by attacking them. also durikan asked how will I FINALLY return home? Witch implies to me and my friends that durikan will go home and come back (posibley severle times) perhaps they will even have to go to the dwarven lands once or twice

[Pyrian]

i don't understand how you think that...He doesn't. He's just making fun of the theorizing.

BTW, I know of some great guys in Nigeria who want to give you a million dollars for no particular reason. You just need to give me your bank account, logon, and PIN.

[Lord_Butters_I]

Belkar's giving of the ring is not a cause of Roy's death, just a contributing factor. A cause would be Xykon's metor swarm, or just gravity in general. If giving Roy the ring counts as causing his death then theoretically it's Roy's fault that the Gate was destroyed because he had the opertunity to kill Miko but didn't.

[TheAlmightyOne]

Belkar giving Roy the ring doesnt really cause his death. A man who sells cars isnt responsible for the death of someone if they get run over with a car he sold to someone. The car was the murder weapon-ish and the dealer sold it to the guy who did the runnin over. Does that make the car dealer responsible for the death? If you want to be like that its actually Vaarsuvius's fault for giving Belkar the ring, causing him to have it, meaning he gives it to Roy. Or, better yet, the magician who created the ring is responsible.

[David Argall]

The exact definition of "cause" varies widely with the case, and prophets are notorious for playing fast and loose with definitions.

Now a common definition is that one causes something when one can foresee the result. You give somebody directions to the bank? You did not cause the resulting robbery. You see him with guns out about to enter the bank and you don't lock the door in his face as you easily can? You are a cause.
In this sense Belkar did cause the death of Roy. He could foresee that Roy was going to get waxed by the lich and so his action is a clear cause of Roy dying.

There is commonly a distinction between The cause and A cause. Belkar was wanting to know if he would be The cause, not just A cause, and he was merely A cause with Roy. But we don't know which meaning the prophet was using, and as noted, prophets are apt to cheat on such points.

So you get to wait and see.


Belkar giving Roy the ring doesnt really cause his death. A man who sells cars isnt responsible for the death of someone if they get run over with a car he sold to someone.

If the car has, for example, defective brakes which he should have known about, and these brake problems are the main cause of the accident, our car salesman is front and center the cause of the accident.
Much more than the car salesman, Belkar knew the loan of the ring would endanger Roy, if not kill him.

[TheAlmightyOne]

If the car has, for example, defective brakes which he should have known about, and these brake problems are the main cause of the accident, our car salesman is front and center the cause of the accident.
Much more than the car salesman, Belkar knew the loan of the ring would endanger Roy, if not kill him.

Nah it was a drink driving incident. The salesman knew that selling the car to a student might endanger an unwary pedestrian but he still isnt the cause of the death.

[Ampersand]

My interpretation was that the last two panels of this comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0460.html) were meant as an indication that Belkar's prophesy had come to pass.

[Roderick_BR]

Sadly, the oracle has also been killed now indirectly by Belkar. Little did most realize it but the skull...
Is actually from the 'polymorph any object'd' body of the kobold oracle in the sunken valley
While the comic doesn't come right out and say this it is fairly clear through subtext and the way Redcloak's eyes look upward slightly in panel #4 of comic #431. Since Belkar tricked Haley into smashing the skull he clearly caused the death of yet another, albeit indirectly.
Wait, what? Where? Redcloak says that they are human skeletons. I don't see where it hints who they were.

As for Miko and her horse:

Belkar made it obvious that he was evil, rising even more her suspicions that the whole OotS is evil. Then she saw the former Lord making plans with Roy, yada yada yada, she lost her paladins powers.
Since her horse is now "stuck" into heaven, it's like he is already gone.
And Miko herself went to jail. It made her arrive late at Soon's battle, making her do a wrong move, resulting in her demise.

I'd say these count as indirect.

[EyethatBinds]

Wait, what? Where? Redcloak says that they are human skeletons. I don't see where it hints who they were.

Clearly it was done by a passing invisible gnome wizard. Those guys sure get around....
And it should be cl;ear to anyone that Belkar caused Miko's death since he did kill enough hobgoblins to cause one of the generals to talk with Redcloak, bringing Numbkey #42 with, who then was killed by a massive boulder almost certainly thrown by Belkar. This caused Redcloak to attack Azure city full force causing Miko to snap and shatter the gate. So you are correct that Belkar caused her death too, but you have to make sure to read the subtext.
Also Belkar caused the death of Xykon in SoD but this is even more subtle and wasn't part of the prophesy and can be ignored safely.

[Belkar's Left Foot]

Obviously, however, as of now, neither Miko or her horse are within Belkar's reach. Miko's dead so her horse won't visit the prime unless she returns to life, and not only that, but as a paladin.

Assuming Roy will be raised and Vaarsuvius is still alive, that makes it possible for Belkar to kill either.

Which one will it be and how, is up to Rich. And while we wait, we can speculate :smallwink:

Note my prediction that Roy will somehow be turned evil against his will and the team will have to kill him.