Ogre Race Critique Requested

[Iqoniq]

Hi.

I was actually going to post my orc race and sub-races as well, but seeing that orcs will apparently be presented as a playable race in one of the upcoming releases from WotC, I'll just hold off on that. However, I do want to post my ogre race and get feedback on it, if you wouldn't mind. Keep in mind that this race is for a custom setting I am working on, and thus there are non-canon details, such as them being orc-kin instead of giants.

Ogres

As orc-kin, ogres usually live amongst orc tribes. Being too clumsy to hunt wildlife very well, they most often find their role amongst the tribes by being camp gaurds or taking up some other task in an orc camp. This role changes if the tribe maintains its well-being by raiding. Ogres do make great raiders.

Unlike their cousins, however, ogres don't mind living in civilized areas with elves, humans, and the lot. Because they are generally too dense to pay attention to the racism and the meager social status afforded them in such environments, ogres are often content to take jobs as bodyguards or perform heavy labor for paltry pay. In some kingdoms, ogres are valuable slaves.

Ability Score Increase: Your Strength increases by 2, and your Constitution increases by 2. Additionally, your Strength cap is 24.
Age: Maturing by 15, ogres can live to be about 60 years old.
Alignment: Ogres appreciate good leadership, and take orders well. This causes most ogres to possess a lawful alignment.
Size: Ogres stand between 9 and 12 feet tall, and possess grayish skin. They can weigh some 1500 pounds. They are a large-sized creature.
Speed: Your speed is 30 feet.
Strong but Clumsy: You gain advantage on all Strength-based ability and skill checks, but suffer disadvantage on all Dexterity-based ability and skill checks.
Large Creature:Your apparel, armor, weapons and tools cost twice as much as medium size counterparts and weigh four times more. You deal 1d6 additional damage with weapons, of the type that weapon deals. Although you are large, you are on the small side of that scale, and so you may grapple large creatures and smaller.
A Slow Mind: Your mind works slower than the minds of others. As such, you have disadvantage on all Intelligence rolls. Additionally, you can not read the languages you know unless your Intelligence score is higher than 10, and you can not write in the languages you know if your Intelligence score is less than 12.
Languages: You speak Orc and Common.


*Adjustments have been made.

[RakiReborn]

Strong but clumsy: as written, it also works on attack rolls. This means you can Always attack at advantage with a greatsword (which pairs increadible with GWM). I'd suggest you make it only work on str/dex ability checks (which include skillchecks as acrobatics and athletics).

[Ninja_Prawn]

Allowing PCs to be large has all sorts of implications. I'd advise writing up a set of clarifications to ensure that a lid is kept on the benefits of large size.

Strong but Clumsy is way too strong an ability, as RakiReborn points out - and Sturdy is ludicrous as a racial ability. Even if it didn't step on the barbarian's toes, it's still way too much to allow. It doesn't even make sense; ogres don't resist weapon damage...

The class restrictions don't feel right either. That's a throwback to AD&D that no one needs. :smallsigh:

[Iqoniq]

Ah, yes ... Strong but Clumsy is certainly meant to be saving throws and skill checks only, such as athletics. Ok, I'll clarify that.

Aside from the 1d4 weapon damage associated with being of large size, and the doubled carrying capacity, what exactly are the benefits of large size? I'm basing large-size benefits on the enlarge person spell. In the DMG it mentions large weapons doing twice the damage of their medium counterparts, but that pertains to monsters. Should I allow double damage, perhaps at the cost of some other sort of disadvantage or penalty?

Alright, Sturdy is gone. That makes sense.

Regarding class restrictions, I'm trying to imply that ogres don't make good mages if they have to read a book for their spells. How else ought I to go about that? Disadvantage on ... concentration checks, or ... something along those lines?

[Ninja_Prawn]

Aside from the 1d4 weapon damage associated with being of large size, and the doubled carrying capacity, what exactly are the benefits of large size? I'm basing large-size benefits on the enlarge person spell. In the DMG it mentions large weapons doing twice the damage of their medium counterparts, but that pertains to monsters. Should I allow double damage, perhaps at the cost of some other sort of disadvantage or penalty?

Off the top of my head: they can now grapple ancient dragons, they now threaten a 4x4 area with sentinel rather than 3x3, medium creatures could use them as a mount...

Weapons-wise, you'll break suspension of disbelief unless you do something. When I introduced tiny races to my games (see Forests and Faeries in my homebrew sig), I had to write a whole new weapons table.


Regarding class restrictions, I'm trying to imply that ogres don't make good mages if they have to read a book for their spells. How else ought I to go about that?

How about 'not giving them a racial bonus to Int'? That's enough of a penalty.

Again, recalling my experience with tiny races, I ended up giving most of them a Strength penalty, while raising the natural Dex cap to 22. It's a break from 5e's design philosophy, but in this case I think it works. You could do the same with the stats reversed. Not many people will play a Mage of you give them +3 Str as a racial modifier.

[Iqoniq]

Excellent advice, and clearly laid out.

Perhaps weapons could just do the next hit dice up, with the exception of the great axe? That would make a dagger do d6, shortsword d8, longsword d10, greatsword 2d8, etc. I could make a great axe do 1d6 additional damage. Or, I could just stick with the 1d4 additional dice, or, make it 1d6 additional damage to melee weapons only.

I'll have to think more about how to deal with the grapple issues and such.

[Ninja_Prawn]

Hang on, isn't 'Ogre Mage' totally a thing? That's the common name for an Oni.

You could make it a subrace. Or a racial feat.

[Belac93]

I would say make slow mind that they halve their proficiency bonus instead of just not being able to learn it. This still means that, even with expertise, you can only get a maximum of +11 on charisma checks.

And something about the idea of a ogre smooth-talker appeals to me.

[Ninja_Prawn]

And something about the idea of a ogre smooth-talker appeals to me.

Something like this (http://flakypastry.runningwithpencils.com/comic.php?strip_id=31)? I know that's a troll rather than an ogre, but the concept is basically the same.

[Iqoniq]

I've updated this race again. I removed the charisma proficiency penalty, and instead instituted a disadvantage on Intelligence checks, since it seemed that that would be more in-character. I also added some clarification on additional damage for being large, and specified additional costs and weight for gear. Finally, I specified that they can not grapple huge creatures.

Oh, I also gave them a strength cap of 24.

Thoughts?

[Iqoniq]

It occurs to me that, per the NPC entry in the MM, I could technically give disadvantage on charisma, intelligence, dexterity, and wisdom checks. However, I'm not sure that these penalties are playable. I'd double their weapons' damage dice if I did this, and maybe give them advantage on constitution checks as well. Technically, it is in line with the NPC. It would make them a monster in melee, but they would melt to magics of any kind.

Having not play tested such a thing, I've no idea exactly how it would actually play out, besides knowing that they would be humorous in social settings.

[Ninja_Prawn]

It occurs to me that, per the NPC entry in the MM, I could technically give disadvantage on charisma, intelligence, dexterity, and wisdom checks. However, I'm not sure that these penalties are playable. I'd double their weapons' damage dice if I did this, and maybe give them advantage on constitution checks as well. Technically, it is in line with the NPC. It would make them a monster in melee, but they would melt to magics of any kind.

I wouldn't. The MM entries are generally not playable as anything more than an occasional Polymorph or Wildshape. The vast majority need to be toned down when converting to PC races, both in terms of their strengths and weaknesses. Biasing the race too far towards physical and away from mental just reduces your players' options and adds nothing too the fun. If someone wants to play a brain-dead barbarian, they can still dump their mental stats, but it shouldn't be the only option.

Going back to my pixie, the MM gives them stealth proficiency and at-will Greater Invisibility as an action - it's not even a spell so it can't be Counterspelled. For the PC race, I kept the skill but dropped the at-will invisibility (though they do get it once/day at 5th level), because that is not appropriate for PCs and would bias them too far towards stealth-based builds.

[Iqoniq]

The MM offers nothing special to ogre NPCs to build off of, so I was kind of thinking of things to define a PC. Kind of winging it. Heh.

So no to all those disadvantages - and that makes plenty of sense. What do you think of the race as currently presented, with advantage on strength ability checks, and disadvantage on intelligence and dexterity ability checks, along with the stipulations I've put upon being of large size?

[Ninja_Prawn]

So no to all those disadvantages - and that makes plenty of sense. What do you think of the race as currently presented, with advantage on strength ability checks, and disadvantage on intelligence and dexterity ability checks, along with the stipulations I've put upon being of large size?

It's in the right sort of ballpark. Playtesting for this sort of thing is essential, because there are sure to be snags and corner cases we haven't considered. And the +1d6 to weapon attacks could be very unbalancing if it's not taken into account in encounter design.

What about dex saves? I might extend the clumsy disadvantage to them. An ogre is a nice easy target for a Fireball, after all.

[Belac93]

I would say that on any intelligence or dexterity check, they have disadvantage if they do not have proficiency, and use only half their proficiency bonus if they are.

[Iqoniq]

Taking these ideas into consideration, I'm going to do some play-testing over the summer, and balance the ogre race out. I'm not sure that I understand how to play-test, but ... I guess it's just testing via play. So I'll do a few battles, level up, few more, etc, on up to 20. Should I be trying out all of the classes as well?

[Ninja_Prawn]

Taking these ideas into consideration, I'm going to do some play-testing over the summer, and balance the ogre race out. I'm not sure that I understand how to play-test, but ... I guess it's just testing via play. So I'll do a few battles, level up, few more, etc, on up to 20. Should I be trying out all of the classes as well?

Well, it would be a huge task for one group to do a thorough playtesting all on their own... You definitely want to see how the racial features interact with different classes, but it's probably not necessary to test every single on. I'd do on tanky build, one melee DPR build, one mobilty/control (i.e. monk-based) build, one gish build and one full-caster build, if you can manage that. It's also important to see how it works in different environments - in the open, in buildings and caves, in complex multi-level areas, etc., and how it fares against different enemies (flying, spellcasting, hordes, etc.). And I'd look into a direct comparison between the ogre and dwarves/half-orcs/goliaths with a similar class build.

[Iqoniq]

What's gish? Come to think of it, I've also seen PEACH in these forums ... what's that?

[Final Hyena]

You know medium creatures don't do an extra 1d6 with a longsword compared to when a short creature uses it.
I would get rid of that, it's a bit much.

+2 str & con with a large size for a crazy sentinel pole arm combo with a higher str cap for end game.
Yes armour costs a lot, but meh a dip into barb solves that.
It gets by without the extra 1d6.
Maybe replace it with athletics proficiency?

Edit;

What's gish? Come to think of it, I've also seen PEACH in these forums ... what's that?
Peach;
Please evaluate and criticise honestly.
Gish;
Martial prowess fuelled/enhanced by magic.

[Ninja_Prawn]

What's gish? Come to think of it, I've also seen PEACH in these forums ... what's that?

I believe the word 'gish' comes from the Gith language, meaning 'skilled'. Players use it to refer to a character that uses magical power to enhance its mundane fighting skills. So, classes like valour bard, eldritch knight, paladin, spellsword, hexblade, shadowknife, bladedancer, etc. are typically the mainstay of a gish build.

PEACH stands for Please Evaluate And Critique Honestly (or similar). It's an invitation for other 'brewers to critique and give feedback.

[Wulfskadi]

Hang on, isn't 'Ogre Mage' totally a thing? That's the common name for an Oni.

You could make it a subrace. Or a racial feat.

Oni are called Ogre mages simply because they have the same size and brute force as ogres. Though they are distantly related the difference is like orangutans and silver-backs, they are completely different species.

[Wulfskadi]

You know medium creatures don't do an extra 1d6 with a longsword compared to when a short creature uses it.
I would get rid of that, it's a bit much.







the difference between small and medium characters in 5e is significantly smaller than the difference between medium and large or small and tiny.

Tiny creatures include things like squirrels and pixies while small includes imps goblins and some dogs. The drop off in average damage output ratios between these two sizes is significant

medium creatures include humanoids and most animals while large encompasses ogres, some dragons, and a plethera of wacky death monsters.

again the average damage output is significantly different between the two (though this is skewed by some of the higher CR monsters)

giving a large creature a boost to damage makes a great deal of sense, however it also makes sense to give disadvantage on stealth checks. Which I didn't notice anyone mention