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Afrodactyl
2016-06-02, 06:33 AM
Hi guys. My group are relatively new to the game, and we're going to start looking at higher levelled games soon. How would I best go about building a fighter that does tremendous amounts of damage per round through casting buffs/debuffs/general abilities? The gear/background/race/etc hasn't been decided yet. My DM has told me to build a level 8 character.

So far, the core of the build is three levels of Battlemaster. Action surge goodness, a fighting style, martial weapons, manoeuvres, etc. The fighting style will be decided at a later date, once I've decided on the gear.

In terms of options, so far I've looked at multiclassing; primarily at the Ranger, Rogue, and Warlock.

Three levels of hunter ranger gets me another fighting style, hunters mark and Colossus Slayer, but makes War Caster more of a necessity.

Three levels of rogue gets me sneak attack, but limits me to finesse/light weapons. Probably the weakest of the three choices on paper.

Three levels of blade pact Fiend warlock gets me hex, magical attacks, and whatever weapon I need in a given situation. Again, makes War Caster more of a necessity.

What is my best option, and what should I take for the next two levels? I can tailor the gear and stats as I need them, so that's not an issue.

Any help would be much appreciated.

Gwendol
2016-06-02, 06:39 AM
In terms of DPR, battlemaster is hard to beat. Go S&B and shove your opponents prone before hacking them to pieces.

Afrodactyl
2016-06-02, 07:07 AM
In terms of DPR, battlemaster is hard to beat. Go S&B and shove your opponents prone before hacking them to pieces.

So go with shieldmaster feat to get the free shove?

Would you recommend adding in ranger/rogue/warlock for more damage?

Specter
2016-06-02, 08:50 AM
Have you considered going ranged? If yes, Fighter 5/Ranger 3 is awesome. Take Sharpshooter, and use Precision Strike to offset the -5 penalty. With that, you can get 1d8+dex+1d6 (hunters mark)+1d8 (colossus slayer)+10 in a shot.

Polearm/Great Weapon Master is also good for brutal smashing.

Afrodactyl
2016-06-02, 08:58 AM
Have you considered going ranged? If yes, Fighter 5/Ranger 3 is awesome. Take Sharpshooter, and use Precision Strike to offset the -5 penalty. With that, you can get 1d8+dex+1d6 (hunters mark)+1d8 (colossus slayer)+10 in a shot.

Polearm/Great Weapon Master is also good for brutal smashing.

That is very nice. So ranged is looking like the best option so far, without going MAD and going for a greatsword/maul/polearm.

Thank you

MaxWilson
2016-06-02, 09:18 AM
That is very nice. So ranged is looking like the best option so far, without going MAD and going for a greatsword/maul/polearm.

Thank you

Yes, ranged.

I hesitate to suggest this because I think it's cheesy, but: you could use Archery Style + Sharpshooter + Crossbow Expert (and either one or two crossbows, depending on how your DM reads Crossbow Expert's wording about "loaded crossbow") to be making 3 attacks per round by level 5: either attack at +8ish for d6+3ish points of damage, or attack at +3 for d6+13ish points of damage. I say "ish" because it depends on how well you roll on stats; but you should be able to get a Dex 16 fairly reliably, possibly more.

Against AC 13 creatures like tyrannosaurs you'd be doing 27.75 points of damage per round. Compare that to the Fire Bolt wizard who'd be attacking at +7ish for 2d10 points of damage, 8.8 points of damage per round.

Archers do great DPR. If you do go fighter, I recommend Eldritch Knight so you can take the Magic Weapon spell. It's a bonus action cast and lasts for an hour (so at most you lose only one attack while casting it, unlike most spells that take a full action) and it removes your greatest weakness: without that spell, lots of monsters take only half damage or less from your attacks. It prevents your party from having to rely upon the aforementioned wizard's puny Fire Bolt DPR when you go up against a werewolf, for example.

Saggo
2016-06-02, 09:23 AM
If you're going ton get to level 11 or 12, consider staying in Fighter. By 11 you'll have D10 Superiority Die, 2nd Extra Attack, and 2 Ability Score Increases. At 12 you'll get a 3rd ASI.

Sharpshooter is good but gets disadvantage from prone, Great Weapon Master is better since it gets advantage from prone. As a BM, use Trip Attack, the GWM on each attack. If you can't trip, you can still Precision Attack. Use ASI for GWM, Polearm Master for a bonus attack, and Strength. Basic but highly effective, ignoring other factors.

You can look here (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1d-9xDdath8kX_v7Rpts9JFIJwIG3X0-dDUtfax14NT0/edit?usp=docslist_api) to see how classes stack up in general.

Gwendol
2016-06-02, 09:50 AM
So go with shieldmaster feat to get the free shove?

Would you recommend adding in ranger/rogue/warlock for more damage?

The thing with pushing the opposition prone is that not only you, but your whole team gets advantage on melee attacks. This means that with a rogue or a monk in the party you can really hurt. A battlemaster can shove the enemy prone, then use commander's strike to allow the rogue to get a reaction attack in, at advantage, which triggers SA damage, then still have room for an attack of their own (at advantage) from lvl 11 and onward. It's great.

MaxWilson
2016-06-02, 09:51 AM
If you're going ton get to level 11 or 12, consider staying in Fighter. By 11 you'll have D10 Superiority Die, 2nd Extra Attack, and 2 Ability Score Increases. At 12 you'll get a 3rd ASI.

Sharpshooter is good but gets disadvantage from prone, Great Weapon Master is better since it gets advantage from prone. As a BM, use Trip Attack, the GWM on each attack. If you can't trip, you can still Precision Attack. Use ASI for GWM and Strength. Basic but highly effective, ignoring other factors.

You can look here (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1d-9xDdath8kX_v7Rpts9JFIJwIG3X0-dDUtfax14NT0/edit?usp=docslist_api) to see how classes stack up in general.

Correction: GWM gets advantage if the prone enemy is within 5' of you when you attack, or disadvantage if the enemy is 10'+ away. Crossbow Expert likewise gets advantage if the prone enemy is within 5' of you when you attack, or disadvantage if the enemy is 10'+ away. No difference.

On the other hand, GWM gets no attack at all (much worse than disadvantage) against targets more than 10' from you, for example because they're caught in the wizard's Web spell and you don't want to wade into the Web yourself, or because the party tank has interposed himself between the enemy and you. Sharpshooters are more efficiently able to focus fire than GWMs are, and they're safer. They're also better at exploiting advanced tactics like the use of caltrops and nets (which also grant advantage to melee attackers just as well as prone does, but help ranged PCs instead of hurting them).

You know your party and your DM's style better than anyone on the Internet does. Consider the advice that's been given and pick a style that matches what actually happens at your table.

======================================


The thing with pushing the opposition prone is that not only you, but your whole team gets advantage on melee attacks. This means that with a rogue or a monk in the party you can really hurt. A battlemaster can shove the enemy prone, then use commander's strike to allow the rogue to get a reaction attack in, at advantage, which triggers SA damage, then still have room for an attack of their own (at advantage) from lvl 11 and onward. It's great.

It's more than that. Prone enemies also have disadvantage on their attacks, and it costs movement to stand up. So there are two basic ways to exploit the prone condition:

1.) Grapple an enemy and then push him prone with your second attack. Now you can bash him to death with your shield (improvised weapon, d4+Str, no proficiency bonus unless you're a tavern brawler) at advantage, and all he can do is attack you back at disadvantage or try to break the grapple or push you off him (because pushing you out of reach breaks the grapple). If your Athletics is much better than his--and it should be because most monsters are bad at Athletics and you have other PCs who can do things like Hex the enemy's Strength--he can't effectively break the grapple without spending more actions than you will spend to re-impose it. So it basically means he has to fight you at disadvantage while you fight him at advantage, and so do all of your melee-range buddies, and he also loses the opportunity to target the squishies and is forced to engage you, the tank. Works best when you're working with teammates, because they don't have to attack with improvised weapons, they can do full GWM attacks and such.

2.) Push an enemy prone and then attack him with your other attacks (including any Polearm Master attacks), and then withdraw 20' or 30' using your movement. You take an opportunity attack (at disadvantage because he's prone), and then on his turn he spends half his movement standing up, and now doesn't have enough movement to reach you. You just made an almost-full attack sequence on him at disadvantage, whereas he got only a single attack back at you, at disadvantage. If he normally gets a claw/claw/bite sequence, well, he only got a single bite at disadvantage. Works best when you're working alone or when the rest of the party is all ranged and farther away, so you don't have to worry about him just switching targets to someone closer.

Afrodactyl
2016-06-02, 10:38 AM
Wow, thanks for the responses. You've all been a great help :)

So I could go ranged Battlemaster (5)/hunter ranger). Attack with a bow as normal, then tripping attack on the second shot.

Or (on a slightly modified build) grapple/shove, smash face with shield, whilst still getting HM/CD, and giving allies advantage on melee attacks. Slightly less damage (from me), but probably better survivability, as it means I can wear plate over light armour.

Jakinbandw
2016-06-02, 11:58 AM
You could, but you'd be missing out on 1 to 2 ability score increases or feats since they are linked to class level now instead of character level. I think it would be better to go pure fighter honestly. If you went human you could get crossbow expert at first level, sharpshooter at 4th, and the. Have two asi's to boost your dex to twenty buffing your defence, accuracy, and damage.

Afrodactyl
2016-06-02, 12:30 PM
I think I'm gonna go fighter (5) and ranger (3), and go with a longbow and sharpshooter.

Thanks for the input guys!

Gwendol
2016-06-02, 12:35 PM
Great choice: versatile and adaptable.

Gtdead
2016-06-02, 12:57 PM
Just because Mark+CS gives higher raw output, doesn't mean it offers higher dpr.
A 2d6 Sneak Attack is higher dpr than 2 times 1d6 from Mark for example.
You still have the same chance to pull it off, but if you miss once with mark, you lose 1d6, while if you miss once with SA you still do 2d6.
If you roll all your attack dice together, sneak attack becomes even better because you can choose to apply it on crits.

Plus if you are going to use Sharpshooter, cunning action is more dpr than both CS and Mark.

If you want a DPR fighter, it's not you that should help others deal damage. It's the opposite. Fighter has the best scaling in the game and benefits a lot more from help than any other class in the game.

Since we are focusing on a lvl 8 character, let's make a comparison against 14 AC.
The formula is Damage*Hit%+Dice Damage*crit chance, effects that are once/turn are calculated with their true chance to hit and crit.
Fighter 8, VHuman, SS/CE/+4 DEX
33.83

Fighter 6/Rogue 2, SS/Medium Armor Master/+2 DEX, 1d6 SA, cunning action for advantage
34.39

Problematic if your DM doesn't have clear cut rules of handling stealth.

Fighter 5/Hunter 3, SS/+2 DEX, Colossus, Bonus action for Mark
29.03

and in case you are fighting hp bloated monsters, going for Crossbow Expert instead of +dex,
24.51 for the first round
35.63 for the rest

with requires about 8 attacks to surpass the straight Fighter 8 build in average dpr.

Fighter 5/Warlock 3, SS/CE, Darkness for advantage.
38.15

However this can go wrong if you get ambushed and have to waste an action to cast darkness. However Darkness lasts for 10 minutes, which can be enough to last for multiple encounters. And you get it back on short rests so don't be too afraid to use it preemptively if you sense danger.

In any case, these numbers don't say much by themselves.
The best build is Battlemaster 20.
It's not about average dpr. It's about ending encounters.

A battlemaster at lvl 20 buffed by a single Wizard or Bard, with precision strike and GWM, a possible 7 superiority dice (he has enough ASIs to grab the feat), can action surge for 8-9 attacks per turn and can do it 2 times. He has enough SD to use precision in almost every missed attack.

This is encounter ending potential, he can literally destroy the strongest dragons. No other class can nova that hard.

Saggo
2016-06-02, 01:03 PM
Correction: GWM gets advantage if the prone enemy is within 5' of you when you attack, or disadvantage if the enemy is 10'+ away. Crossbow Expert likewise gets advantage if the prone enemy is within 5' of you when you attack, or disadvantage if the enemy is 10'+ away. No difference.

GWM doesn't need PAM to work on Prone. Sharpshooter needs Crossbow Expert to work on Prone. It's a quick comparison of -5/+10. For a single feat, GWM has higher DPR potential than Sharpshooter or Crossbow Expert. For a two feat combo, loading the hand crossbow requires a free hand, complicating object interactions. GWM/PAM has higher DPR potential, especially if you don't consistently remain in melee range. If you do use SS/XB hand crossbows in melee only, it still lags behind by a few DPR with lower damage die and loss of AoOs, after editing the DPR sheet for d6s.

If your party uses advanced techniques that capitalize on ranged attacks, ranged is better of course, but there are advanced techniques for melee as well.

If you want the great DPR with good utility, a GWM/PAM Battlemaster is a perfect choice. If you want good DPR (better than a lot) with great utility, a ranged BM or EK is a perfect choice.

Mechaviking
2016-06-02, 09:03 PM
Barbarian 5 paired with either ranger 3 for a Rexxar or Rogue 3 for a Conan is also somewhat versatile and fun to play, strength builds to be sure but worth the mention methinks.

R.Shackleford
2016-06-02, 10:04 PM
Do note that you really don't need to optimize for damage, basic builds will do more than enough damage to deal with anything a DM will throw at a group.

Also remember that D&D is a team game, don't worry about your DPR but the team's DPR. If your team's DPR is already high, adding a little bit more doesn't really help as you are giving up other options that can help the group.

Damage is something teams have in spades. For new or experience players you don't really need to worry about it unless the DM tells you to worry about it.

Gwendol
2016-06-03, 01:25 AM
A battlemaster at lvl 20 buffed by a single Wizard or Bard, with precision strike and GWM, a possible 7 superiority dice (he has enough ASIs to grab the feat), can action surge for 8-9 attacks per turn and can do it 2 times. He has enough SD to use precision in almost every missed attack.

This is encounter ending potential, he can literally destroy the strongest dragons. No other class can nova that hard.

And even after using action surges, and all superiority dice, it's still a fighter attacking four times a round at full strength.

djreynolds
2016-06-03, 04:34 AM
I played a half orc fighter/rogue. Plate armor and rapier, expertise in athletics and shield master, quite effective in melee with the possibility of obtaining uncanny dodge at rogue 5.

But what does your party need? An archer in the back? An archer who can also melee? How versatile do you need to be?

For me humbly, IMO, a ranger archer has lots of other stuff to bring to the table, so does rogue, and fighter. A ranger has spells and skills and off-hand healing. The great thing about being a ranged combatant is you only need dexterity as your stat.

How many levels? Hunter's mark is nice. But you are missing out on additional goodies the ranger class brings later on, and once you get precision from battle master and trip or disarm, you could leave battlemaster.

But they key is that level 11 sweet spot, a fighter gets 3 attacks and the ranger gets volley and some very good spells.

If you plan to go fighter 11, than it is better to pair up with a rogue.

If you plan to go ranger 11, you can dip fighter for 3 levels and grab some rogue as well

I have seen ranger/rogue/fighter builds out there. You could begin 3 fighter, yes you lose a skill but you get con saves, and 4 SD and 3 maneuvers. The grab rogue 2 for cunning action and expertise in stealth and perception, then get to ranger 3. This will put you at 8th level, I recommend horde breaker because you can later add that sharpshooter damage to that attack.

Then from there you will take the fighter path or the ranger path.

Crgaston
2016-06-03, 06:32 PM
If you're new to the system, a champion Archer isn't a bad place to start. The +2 bonus from Archery is kind of a big deal.You can just focus on Dex for AC, initiative, attack and damage and let's you put points in CHA or WIS so you can be a face or don't get turned on your own party. A scimitar gives you a good finesse melee weapon with slashing damage if you have to mix it up, but at level 10 you can pick up Close Quarters Shooter from UA for another +1 to hit and no disadvantage in melee. Or else get Dueling for the +2 damage. I'd max Dex before taking Sharpshooter. The hit penalty is high vs the damage you gain until you hit level 12 or so. Spy or urchin background for stealth and thieves tools. Two levels of rogue is super tempting with that background for the expertise and the Cunning Action, especially if you're not going to 20th, but with straight fighter you're getting ASI's at 6,8,12 and 14. And 16. So when do you do it? Maybe start as rogue for the Dex save? It's not like strength saves are that common, plus you'd get the extra skills.

Plus, you're critting twice as often as anyone else. Battle master is awesome if you're interested in imposing status conditions on a limited basis. But nobody can fight harder than a Champion. Every. Single. Round.

MaxWilson
2016-06-03, 07:48 PM
If you do the math against commonplace monsters, Sharpshooter is more compelling the lower your Dex is, because the +10 matters relatively more. I would take it as soon as possible instead of maxing Dex first. Additionally, it gives you new tactical options like exploiting high ground and/or cover, and using nets in combat without disadvantage in order to do crowd control and/or grant advantage to your allies.

Crgaston
2016-06-04, 09:23 AM
Hmm... 2 attacks at +8 vs AC 15 = 7 needed to hit, so 21* .65= 13.65 with 20 Dex and no SS. With 16 Dex and SS, you have +3 for Dex, +3 for proficiency, but -5 for SS. So needing a 14 to hit. So 37"*.3= 11.1

Still, the ability to ignore cover and range are both outstanding. But so is +2 on both AC and initiative.

R.Shackleford
2016-06-04, 10:13 AM
Still, the ability to ignore cover and range are both outstanding. But so is +2 on both AC and initiative.

Only if your DM uses the cover rules. I have yet to see a public play DM use the rules correctly and many home game DMs don't exactly use them either...

MaxWilson
2016-06-04, 11:43 AM
Hmm... 2 attacks at +8 vs AC 15 = 7 needed to hit, so 21* .65= 13.65 with 20 Dex and no SS. With 16 Dex and SS, you have +3 for Dex, +3 for proficiency, but -5 for SS. So needing a 14 to hit. So 37"*.3= 11.1

Still, the ability to ignore cover and range are both outstanding. But so is +2 on both AC and initiative.

Why are you comparing 16 Dex and SS vs 20 Dex? That's two ASIs to one.

A 4th level fighter with 18 Dex and Archery style has +8 to hit for d10+4 points of damage with a heavy crossbow. Vs AC 15, he needs 7 to hit, so plug in "avg.7?d10+4" to my damage calculator (http://maxwilson.github.io/RollWeb/Roll/) (because it's easier than doing the math by hand relating to crits, advantage, etc.) and you'll find he has a DPR of 6.92.

A 4th level fighter with 16 Dex and Archery style and Sharpshooter instead of +2 Dex has +2 to hit when headshotting for d10+13 points of damage with a heavy crossbow. Vs AC 15, he needs a 13 to hit, so plug in "avg.13?d10+13" and voila! he has DPR 7.67.

But it turns out that his DPR with advantage is avg.13a?d10+13 = 12.38 points of damage, almost double, so maybe you'll want to spend a round throwing a net (+6 to hit, 55% chance of success) to tangle an enemy before shooting him. Or maybe you rely on the wizard's Owl familiar to help you line up your shots. Sharpshooter makes combat more tactically interesting because there's a higher payoff for good tactics.

===================================


Only if your DM uses the cover rules. I have yet to see a public play DM use the rules correctly and many home game DMs don't exactly use them either...

Out of curiosity, what do public play DMs do when you try to exploit the cover rules directly? E.g. "I cast Mold Earth to create a 5' high breastwork for myself here for partial cover" or "I find a log and kneel behind it while firing back"? Do they just say, "No, that's too complicated"? What a loss if so.

Similarly for range. It's not like a PC vanishes in a puff of smoke just because he moves off the pre-drawn battlegrid (if the table is using battlegrids instead of TotM). It's totally within the player idiom to say "we maintain a 200' spacing between our vanguard and our main body". A jerk DM might then modify all of his encounters so that enemies always ambush both vanguard and the main body simultaneously, thus denying the players any benefit to having a vanguard and encouraging them to clump up again to make the DM's life easier... but that DM is just a jerk. And even at that jerk DM's table, the Sharpshooter still gets a benefit because he's the only one besides a Crossbow Expert who can actually throw a net on an enemy without incurring disadvantage. (Nets have 5' range, so you either take disadvantage from having a hostile enemy in your face, or you take disadvantage from being at long range. You can knock the enemy prone though and then throw a net at 5' in order to cancel out the disadvantage with advantage.)

TL;DR just because your DM doesn't think about cover and range doesn't mean you can't exploit them anyway.

R.Shackleford
2016-06-04, 12:38 PM
Why are you comparing 16 Dex and SS vs 20 Dex? That's two ASIs to one.

A 4th level fighter with 18 Dex and Archery style has +8 to hit for d10+4 points of damage with a heavy crossbow. Vs AC 15, he needs 7 to hit, so plug in "avg.7?d10+4" to my damage calculator (http://maxwilson.github.io/RollWeb/Roll/) (because it's easier than doing the math by hand relating to crits, advantage, etc.) and you'll find he has a DPR of 6.92.

A 4th level fighter with 16 Dex and Archery style and Sharpshooter instead of +2 Dex has +2 to hit when headshotting for d10+13 points of damage with a heavy crossbow. Vs AC 15, he needs a 13 to hit, so plug in "avg.13?d10+13" and voila! he has DPR 7.67.

But it turns out that his DPR with advantage is avg.13a?d10+13 = 12.38 points of damage, almost double, so maybe you'll want to spend a round throwing a net (+6 to hit, 55% chance of success) to tangle an enemy before shooting him. Or maybe you rely on the wizard's Owl familiar to help you line up your shots. Sharpshooter makes combat more tactically interesting because there's a higher payoff for good tactics.

===================================



Out of curiosity, what do public play DMs do when you try to exploit the cover rules directly? E.g. "I cast Mold Earth to create a 5' high breastwork for myself here for partial cover" or "I find a log and kneel behind it while firing back"? Do they just say, "No, that's too complicated"? What a loss if so.

Similarly for range. It's not like a PC vanishes in a puff of smoke just because he moves off the pre-drawn battlegrid (if the table is using battlegrids instead of TotM). It's totally within the player idiom to say "we maintain a 200' spacing between our vanguard and our main body". A jerk DM might then modify all of his encounters so that enemies always ambush both vanguard and the main body simultaneously, thus denying the players any benefit to having a vanguard and encouraging them to clump up again to make the DM's life easier... but that DM is just a jerk. And even at that jerk DM's table, the Sharpshooter still gets a benefit because he's the only one besides a Crossbow Expert who can actually throw a net on an enemy without incurring disadvantage. (Nets have 5' range, so you either take disadvantage from having a hostile enemy in your face, or you take disadvantage from being at long range. You can knock the enemy prone though and then throw a net at 5' in order to cancel out the disadvantage with advantage.)

TL;DR just because your DM doesn't think about cover and range doesn't mean you can't exploit them anyway.

I've seen DMs make cover rules non-existent AND hard as hell.

Have someone between you and your target? You can't target the target at all.

Hiding behind a wall with an arrow slit? No penalty to hit...

This was in the same game, same session, same DM. Not all DMs will be this bad BUT when you don't know the rules going into a game or a session then you can't really exploit them as well. Or if a DM changes the rules on the fly, you can't really exploit them either.

MaxWilson
2016-06-04, 01:14 PM
I've seen DMs make cover rules non-existent AND hard as ----.

Have someone between you and your target? You can't target the target at all.

Hiding behind a wall with an arrow slit? No penalty to hit...

This was in the same game, same session, same DM. Not all DMs will be this bad BUT when you don't know the rules going into a game or a session then you can't really exploit them as well. Or if a DM changes the rules on the fly, you can't really exploit them either.

Wow. I'm sorry, man. That sounds awful.

Easy_Lee
2016-06-04, 01:40 PM
Bearing in mind that some DMs use all sorts of weird cover rules, that sometimes you get ambushed, and that bows can't perform attacks of opportunity, I believe that polearm master half-orc battle master or champion is best. You get uninterrupted progression and a slew of useful abilities.

BM is better in short fights with regular rest. Champion is better if your DM is sadistic and wants you to fight frequent long, drawn out battles.

Champion also has some decent features out of combat, as there are very few problems one can't think of a way to solve with remarkable athlete. http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?356564-Remarkable-Athlete-lets-see-how-remarkable-it-is

Afrodactyl
2016-06-05, 01:42 PM
Wow, I really didn't expect this thread to get nearly as much attention as it has. Thanks for all the input guys.

I'm gonna try out fighter 5/ranger 3 as well as fighter 5/rogue 3, both on a ranged build and a polearm build. I'm gonna try it all out with variant human, just so I still get the stat bumps from ASIs.

Mechaviking
2016-06-05, 09:10 PM
Bearing in mind that some DMs use all sorts of weird cover rules, that sometimes you get ambushed, and that bows can't perform attacks of opportunity, I believe that polearm master half-orc battle master or champion is best. You get uninterrupted progression and a slew of useful abilities.

BM is better in short fights with regular rest. Champion is better if your DM is sadistic and wants you to fight frequent long, drawn out battles.

Champion also has some decent features out of combat, as there are very few problems one can't think of a way to solve with remarkable athlete. http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?356564-Remarkable-Athlete-lets-see-how-remarkable-it-is

This /\

I just finished a con playing planescape in next where we had NO short rests, it was crazy fun and crazy difficult, I thank my lucky stars I sawed my last Warlock spellslot for an Earth elemental :D

As a sidenote EK with pro evil and shield can tank almost anything FYI :D

Lombra
2016-06-07, 04:21 AM
Just for the sake of numbers, a barbarian 2/ champion 15 has an avarage of 78 DPR(with a 20 STR score): Great Weapon Master, Great Weapon Fighting style, greatsword, reckless attack.
(Rage and magic +something weapons aside)

This one is a very individual build and shoving the enemy is better due to having a whole team attacking the target.

Edit: DPR calculated against AC 18 target
Edit2: the PC is half-orc