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View Full Version : Roleplaying How to cooperate with someone really evil?



Amaril
2016-06-02, 10:36 AM
Okay, so my group recently started a new ongoing game of this thing called Fallen Empires, which is a reskin of Apocalypse World for a dark fantasy setting. You should check it out, it's awesome. Anyway, we all sat down to make our characters, and right from the beginning, I found myself pulled into a bit of a conflict. I'm hoping you folks can advise me on defusing the situation.

See, one of my fellow players made a mesmerast--a psychic mage specializing in mind reading and mind control. Now, I happen to think using magic to invade people's thoughts and subvert their free will is a pretty horrible thing to do, regardless of the specific magic system at work, and I also like playing heroic, morally upstanding characters--this creates a problem. Apocalypse World doesn't assume the D&D adventuring party model, and PC conflict isn't taboo, but it does expect the characters to at least be willing to work together at the start. But here I am in a game with a character who can't seem to talk to someone for more than thirty seconds without trying to mind-probe them or plant puppet strings in their head, and honestly doesn't see any problem with this, and I don't know how long I'm gonna be able to justify my character tolerating it.

I don't want to create conflict if I can help it. Out of character, I really like the guys in my group, this one player included (when I warned him during chargen that the character I had in mind would find it hard to get along with a mesmerast, he asked if I'd prefer he play something else--I told him no, which may have been a mistake on my part). To his credit, the way he's playing the character is really interesting: they believe they're something called the "vessel of the Living Record", which I guess is a magical archive of all human knowledge and thought, and they "collect" minds so they can add them to the Record. They honestly don't see what they do as wrong, because they seem to feel that all minds are naturally one somehow, and all they're doing is ignoring the illusion of separation. I don't really know the details yet, but it doesn't change the fact that my character, as I've established him, believes that kind of magic is unjustifiable. The issue is further complicated by the fact that my character could pretty easily overpower his in a direct conflict if he so chose, and there's really no reason he can't pursue one at the moment, which makes it hard to justify him holding back.

So far (we've just finished our second session), I've been explaining my character's reluctance to act as him feeling sorry for the mesmerast--they're horrifically scarred and disfigured for unknown reasons, clearly not mentally well, and honestly don't seem to understand the error of their ways, so I'm trying to see them as more of a tragic victim who just doesn't know any better than an unrepentant monster. But this feels like a flimsy justification at best. An OOC solution would be no help because there's no OOC issue--we've both agreed to play these characters together and see how it turns out, and I don't resent my fellow player in the least--but I don't want to ruin anyone's fun. So how can I, through roleplaying, better justify my character not pursuing action he should wholeheartedly believe is right and just? What's the best way to handle this?

Red Fel
2016-06-02, 10:52 AM
So far (we've just finished our second session), I've been explaining my character's reluctance to act as him feeling sorry for the mesmerast--they're horrifically scarred and disfigured for unknown reasons, clearly not mentally well, and honestly don't seem to understand the error of their ways, so I'm trying to see them as more of a tragic victim who just doesn't know any better than an unrepentant monster. But this feels like a flimsy justification at best. An OOC solution would be no help because there's no OOC issue--we've both agreed to play these characters together and see how it turns out, and I don't resent my fellow player in the least--but I don't want to ruin anyone's fun. So how can I, through roleplaying, better justify my character not pursuing action he should wholeheartedly believe is right and just? What's the best way to handle this?

Clearly, you've spoken with the player. That's good. My question, however is this: Has your character spoken with the other character?

It's one thing to say, "This person may be mentally unwell, but their amoral actions offend me." It's another thing to say, "This person's amoral actions offend me, but he may be mentally unwell, and I want to try to help." Is your PC doing that? I think the dynamic of amoral puppeteer and moral compass can work pretty well for an RP, if both players are up for it. There are plenty of examples in media of one character who is moral and upstanding, and another who is shady at best, working together for a common goal. (They fight crime! (http://theyfightcrime.org/))

All that said, if your characters can't work out a sort of synergistic balance, with your character advocating morality and restraint and his advocating for ruthless expediency, it seems that the problem is yours to begin with.

Mesmerast is more than just an acceptable role in this setting - it's a specific class, and the fluff is pretty explicitly invasive. Writing a character who has a problem with that is like playing a character in a D&D campaign who has a problem with Elves - yeah, it's legitimate, but you're going to run into Elves, it's inevitable, and one may well be in your party. And if that will definitely cause conflict for you, then it's going to cause conflict for you - change your concept so it doesn't.

I also note how you describe the class. You say "I happen to think using magic to invade people's thoughts and subvert their free will is a pretty horrible thing to do[.]" That's I happen to think, not my character thinks. So while you say there's no OOC issue, it seems that there is one: Namely, that you, the player, find a character concept offensive, and therefore so does your character. Your character is channeling the player's beef, and that is an OOC issue. That's something you need to address yourself. In a system where X is a legitimate PC concept, if I as a player have an issue with X, I need to either (1) suck it up, (2) find another game to play, or (3) rudely put the burden on X's player to change his concept. In this case, I'd advise Option 1.

OldTrees1
2016-06-02, 11:07 AM
1) Even the noblest of soul does not have the reach necessary to right every wrong and oppose every evil. It is up to you to choose which you will right/oppose whether that be in their order of appearance, their magnitude, or some other metric. Note this does not necessarily excuse you of participating in the evil.

2) There are many ways to oppose evil just like there are many ways to conduct evil. While the easy answer is often to sacrifice the one to save the many, you might be seeking the harder answer that saves all involved (redemption/education arc).

3) You might believe that you are fallible. This might encourage you to try to understand why the [mesmerast] believes their actions are moral. In the end you might decide otherwise but the openness to questioning might delay.

Geddy2112
2016-06-02, 11:08 AM
Clearly, you've spoken with the player. That's good. My question, however is this: Has your character spoken with the other character?

It's one thing to say, "This person may be mentally unwell, but their amoral actions offend me." It's another thing to say, "This person's amoral actions offend me, but he may be mentally unwell, and I want to try to help." Is your PC doing that? I think the dynamic of amoral puppeteer and moral compass can work pretty well for an RP, if both players are up for it. There are plenty of examples in media of one character who is moral and upstanding, and another who is shady at best, working together for a common goal. (They fight crime! (http://theyfightcrime.org/))

So much of this. It takes all walks of life to save the day, and so long as the conflict is fun and constructive, you can both enjoy it, cooperate, and hell, maybe you can teach each other a thing or two. Good friends get into heated philosophical, ethical, and moral discussions all the time. Sure, these can tear friends apart, but at worst most friends agree to disagree, or at least they gain a better understanding of the opposite view. Likely, both will take some points and their views might get a bit closer.

Hear him out, in character. Likewise, show him the reasons why his actions are questionable and that maybe it is not the best thing to go and poke around peoples brains. If his character does not know better, then its wrong for you to just chew him out, but so right for you to show him a better way. A mesmerist can certainly use their power for evil, but they can do a lot of good. Since they seem a bit amoral, if you guide them towards good, they will likely become good. You help him use his powers for good, and he shows you just how much good his powers can do. Win win.

Or you snuff him, but how good would that make you?

Honest Tiefling
2016-06-04, 10:42 AM
Some suggestions...

1) Talk to the DM about arranging a situation where your character's beliefs might change. Perhaps they get infected with a curse (I have no idea how this setting works if it wasn't obvious already) and the mind magic guy needs to mind control your PC in order to stop the curse. Or they temporarily become a part of the record, and realize it is a path to immortality. Or something happens to shake their beliefs.

2) ****ing run with it. Ask the other player if they would be okay to initiate some conflict. Make a back up character and just see where it goes when your character has open or discreet conflict with his. You will probably have to retire your current PC, but it could be quite the show for you and the others.

3) Just assume your PC doesn't have a lot of choice. He's creepy as all hells, but when you have a world destroying plague, well, beggars can't be choosers. RP trying to convert him by being nice to him and debating with him over a friendly cup of whatever. His PC seems too used to pain and insults, so maybe a friendly chat is what he needs to see the light.

4) Get him to only take bad minds. It really is a bit of a pity to let the evil wizard's mind go to waste and after that...Abomination he made, well, he wasn't going to be left alive anyway. Also try to convince the other character that if he only takes willing minds of innocent people, even more people will sign up! Spread the word that this living record can save your glory and knowledge for centuries! People won't be fighting him, with the proper spin, they'll sign things over once they're done with them.

ReaderAt2046
2016-06-04, 10:58 AM
Okay, so my group recently started a new ongoing game of this thing called Fallen Empires, which is a reskin of Apocalypse World for a dark fantasy setting. You should check it out, it's awesome. Anyway, we all sat down to make our characters, and right from the beginning, I found myself pulled into a bit of a conflict. I'm hoping you folks can advise me on defusing the situation.

See, one of my fellow players made a mesmerast--a psychic mage specializing in mind reading and mind control. Now, I happen to think using magic to invade people's thoughts and subvert their free will is a pretty horrible thing to do, regardless of the specific magic system at work, and I also like playing heroic, morally upstanding characters--this creates a problem. Apocalypse World doesn't assume the D&D adventuring party model, and PC conflict isn't taboo, but it does expect the characters to at least be willing to work together at the start. But here I am in a game with a character who can't seem to talk to someone for more than thirty seconds without trying to mind-probe them or plant puppet strings in their head, and honestly doesn't see any problem with this, and I don't know how long I'm gonna be able to justify my character tolerating it.

I don't want to create conflict if I can help it. Out of character, I really like the guys in my group, this one player included (when I warned him during chargen that the character I had in mind would find it hard to get along with a mesmerast, he asked if I'd prefer he play something else--I told him no, which may have been a mistake on my part). To his credit, the way he's playing the character is really interesting: they believe they're something called the "vessel of the Living Record", which I guess is a magical archive of all human knowledge and thought, and they "collect" minds so they can add them to the Record. They honestly don't see what they do as wrong, because they seem to feel that all minds are naturally one somehow, and all they're doing is ignoring the illusion of separation. I don't really know the details yet, but it doesn't change the fact that my character, as I've established him, believes that kind of magic is unjustifiable. The issue is further complicated by the fact that my character could pretty easily overpower his in a direct conflict if he so chose, and there's really no reason he can't pursue one at the moment, which makes it hard to justify him holding back.

So far (we've just finished our second session), I've been explaining my character's reluctance to act as him feeling sorry for the mesmerast--they're horrifically scarred and disfigured for unknown reasons, clearly not mentally well, and honestly don't seem to understand the error of their ways, so I'm trying to see them as more of a tragic victim who just doesn't know any better than an unrepentant monster. But this feels like a flimsy justification at best. An OOC solution would be no help because there's no OOC issue--we've both agreed to play these characters together and see how it turns out, and I don't resent my fellow player in the least--but I don't want to ruin anyone's fun. So how can I, through roleplaying, better justify my character not pursuing action he should wholeheartedly believe is right and just? What's the best way to handle this?

My suggestion would be to have your character talk to the mesmerast, IC. Explain to him why most people think that messing around with other people's heads is wrong. If he genuinely doesn't understand why what he's doing is wrong, then he should be willing to at least listen to you. If you can persuade him that what he's doing might be objectionable, then maybe you can get him to tone back on it a little bit, restrict his mindraping to those that deserve such treatment.

And tell him that if he doesn't at least tone it down, you are going to feel obliged to stop him, and there are a lot of other people who feel the same. If he wants to preserve this "archive", get him to understand that if he keeps on doing what he's doing, a lot of people are going to try and destroy the archive.

Quertus
2016-06-06, 06:35 AM
Clearly, you've spoken with the player. That's good. My question, however is this: Has your character spoken with the other character?

It's one thing to say, "This person may be mentally unwell, but their amoral actions offend me." It's another thing to say, "This person's amoral actions offend me, but he may be mentally unwell, and I want to try to help." Is your PC doing that? I think the dynamic of amoral puppeteer and moral compass can work pretty well for an RP, if both players are up for it. There are plenty of examples in media of one character who is moral and upstanding, and another who is shady at best, working together for a common goal. (They fight crime! (http://theyfightcrime.org/))

All that said, if your characters can't work out a sort of synergistic balance, with your character advocating morality and restraint and his advocating for ruthless expediency, it seems that the problem is yours to begin with.

Mesmerast is more than just an acceptable role in this setting - it's a specific class, and the fluff is pretty explicitly invasive. Writing a character who has a problem with that is like playing a character in a D&D campaign who has a problem with Elves - yeah, it's legitimate, but you're going to run into Elves, it's inevitable, and one may well be in your party. And if that will definitely cause conflict for you, then it's going to cause conflict for you - change your concept so it doesn't.

I also note how you describe the class. You say "I happen to think using magic to invade people's thoughts and subvert their free will is a pretty horrible thing to do[.]" That's I happen to think, not my character thinks. So while you say there's no OOC issue, it seems that there is one: Namely, that you, the player, find a character concept offensive, and therefore so does your character. Your character is channeling the player's beef, and that is an OOC issue. That's something you need to address yourself. In a system where X is a legitimate PC concept, if I as a player have an issue with X, I need to either (1) suck it up, (2) find another game to play, or (3) rudely put the burden on X's player to change his concept. In this case, I'd advise Option 1.

+1 this.

I'd add that the easiest solution would be to have the other character change your mind. Perhaps literally. I love the idea of a role reversal, where the mesmerast is the moral one, and your character is the one who is "shady at best", always thinking of himself, instead of realizing that we are all one being (which, in a world populated solely by NPCs...)

SirBellias
2016-06-06, 01:22 PM
+1 this.

I'd add that the easiest solution would be to have the other character change your mind. Perhaps literally. I love the idea of a role reversal, where the mesmerast is the moral one, and your character is the one who is "shady at best", always thinking of himself, instead of realizing that we are all one being (which, in a world populated solely by NPCs...)

I was going to recommend that the reason their character hasn't done anything about the situation is that they're being subconsciously manipulated into not doing so, but this is a more interesting way to go.

Karnack
2016-06-08, 08:43 AM
From my own experience for these sort of situations I found it best to first talk about the possible outcomes and consequences OOC with the other player. That way it is clearer what the most likely and favorable resolution is going to be that will make both you and the other player happy.

I've also found the sooner these situations are sorted out the better it is for all, and if it does come to combat attempt to make it epic. A good show always helps.