How does an assassin deal with arcane spell failure?

[Evelyn Elliott]

I'm building an assassin (rogue 5 / assassin 8). Assassins have arcane spells, but they wear light armor, which means they have to deal with arcane spell failure chance.

How do I deal with it? Do I just eat it, or what? I really don't like the 20% chance any spell I cast will fail.

[Psyren]

I'm building an assassin (rogue 5 / assassin 8). Assassins have arcane spells, but they wear light armor, which means they have to deal with arcane spell failure chance.

How do I deal with it? Do I just eat it, or what? I really don't like the 20% chance any spell I cast will fail.

They cast like bards, which means light armor is okay.

Your bigger problem is that by RAW, they have to sing :smallbiggrin:

[Red Fel]

I'm building an assassin (rogue 5 / assassin 8). Assassins have arcane spells, but they wear light armor, which means they have to deal with arcane spell failure chance.

How do I deal with it? Do I just eat it, or what? I really don't like the 20% chance any spell I cast will fail.

There are ways to reduce arcane spell failure. First off, mithral armor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialMaterials.htm#mithral) reduces ASF by 10%, so if you're using a chain shirt (20% ASF) made of mithral, you're already halfway there. Feycraft or Githcraft armor each reduce ASF by an additional 5%. The Twilight armor enhancement reduces ASF by 10%.

If you could stack all of them (Twilight Feycraft Githcraft mithral) you'd actually have -30%, which means you could use a heavier armor, like a breastplate, which, being mithral, would still count as light.

[Evelyn Elliott]

There are ways to reduce arcane spell failure. First off, mithral armor reduces ASF by 10%, so if you're using a chain shirt (20% ASF) made of mithral, you're already halfway there. Feycraft or Githcraft armor each reduce ASF by an additional 5%. The Twilight armor enhancement reduces ASF by 10%.

If you could stack all of them (Twilight Feycraft Githcraft mithral) you'd actually have -30%, which means you could use a heavier armor, like a breastplate, which, being mithral, would still count as light.

Awesome. Thanks. I knew about mithril, but I hadn't heard about Feycraft, Githcraft, or Twilight armor.

[Bakkan]

Also Thistledown (Races of the Wild). 0% ASF full plate is possible.

[Deadline]

As already mentioned, they don't suffer ASF in light armor, like Bards. If you are wanting your assassin to wear anything heavier than light armor, then you'd need to go through the Mithril/Twilight/etc. routine.

[torrasque666]

As already mentioned, they don't suffer ASF in light armor, like Bards. If you are wanting your assassin to wear anything heavier than light armor, then you'd need to go through the Mithril/Twilight/etc. routine.
Or, if you can fit it in, take Battle Caster and you can wear any kind of mithral armor without worrying about ASF.

[Troacctid]

If you're entering as a rogue, you're not going to want to wear medium armor anyway, since your evasion only works in light armor.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Now the question becomes, how do you cast spells without singing or speaking "in a strong voice"? You can't apply Silent Spell, and anything that works specifically for bards generally has bard levels or class features as a prerequisite, so you can't use those, either.

[Evelyn Elliott]

They cast like bards, which means light armor is okay.

Your bigger problem is that by RAW, they have to sing :smallbiggrin:


As already mentioned, they don't suffer ASF in light armor, like Bards. If you are wanting your assassin to wear anything heavier than light armor, then you'd need to go through the Mithril/Twilight/etc. routine.


Now the question becomes, how do you cast spells without singing or speaking "in a strong voice"? You can't apply Silent Spell, and anything that works specifically for bards generally has bard levels or class features as a prerequisite, so you can't use those, either.

I have read a lot of debates about the "assassins cast spells like a bard" thing. I would really rather not get into it.

[Morcleon]

I have read a lot of debates about the "assassins cast spells like a bard" thing. I would really rather not get into it.

Regardless, a Feycraft Mithral Chainshirt costs 1600 and has -0 ACP and 0% ASF. :smalltongue:

[Deadline]

Now the question becomes, how do you cast spells without singing or speaking "in a strong voice"? You can't apply Silent Spell, and anything that works specifically for bards generally has bard levels or class features as a prerequisite, so you can't use those, either.

No, because if you read the PHB Bard entry you'll see that it states the all Bard spells have a verbal component, not Assassin spells.

And if the Assassin entry isn't referring to both a Bard's ability to spontaneously cast and its ability to cast in light armor, then why not just say that Assassin's cast as a Sorcerer?

But yeah, just go with Morcleon's suggestion and get on with your stabbing.

[Bakkan]

Regardless, a Feycraft Mithral Chainshirt costs 1600 and has -0 ACP and 0% ASF. :smalltongue:

This has 5%. You need to add either Githcraft or Thistledown to get to 0%.

[Morcleon]

This has 5%. You need to add either Githcraft or Thistledown to get to 0%.

Ah, whoops. Misremembered. Feycraft Githcraft Mithral Chainshirt then. Costs 2200 gp.

[Psyren]

I have read a lot of debates about the "assassins cast spells like a bard" thing. I would really rather not get into it.

I was being facetious about the singing thing. The whole point of that line is to let you know that casting in light armor does not carry spell failure for an assassin. All the artwork of the iconic assassin has him in leather (DMG 180, SpC 112 etc) even when casting. They very clearly intended you to be able to do this.

[Eisfalken]

This has 5%. You need to add either Githcraft or Thistledown to get to 0%.

For some reason, I never even checked that you can stack these templates together, but apparently by RAW you can.

But there are still limitations. You can't add templates after the fact, you have to start with them being whatever. And stacking templates makes it retardedly hard to find them to buy in most Material Plane cities; even a single template adds x10 to the effective cost to determine if a settlement will sell it. At the most liberal interpretation, adding two templates will read as x20; a really nasty DM may rule the math works out as x100.

Mostly, this means if you really want an item with both templates, you have to force the issue in-play. This isn't necessarily a no-go, but... yeah, you have to arrange a situation where a githyanki is put under the "influence" of a fey creature (which almost certainly means a fey spellcaster, so there's at least a chance of firing off a charm monster or something equivalent). I won't even imagine the mental gymnastics to justify a feycraft githcraft anythingelsecraft item (which is technically RAW, but... Jesus, what a mind-twist).

I'd allow it, but I'd make the player work for it. We're talking about talking a fey creature with the right abilities into going to the Astral Plane to mind-rape a githyanki master craftsman (an no, not just some 1st-level peon; you have to be 7th level to make any of these templates in the first place (Craft skill minimum 10 ranks), so you're talking about finding a sizable githyanki settlement with the right guy with the right amount of skill ranks.

And in the end, it doesn't even help much. It doesn't matter that you go the ACF down to 0%, because you still have penalties to your skills with the breastplate, and a limit on your Dex bonus to AC (which can be a thing if you stacked up Dex and dumped something else).

Personally? I'd just stick to a good ol' mithral chain shirt. +1 AC shouldn't really make more of a difference than a -2 to literally every useful skill to a stealth build, and if you get 22+ Dex, you actually didn't give up anything. You still have a chassis for armor enhancements that matter, and if you truly need more AC, see about throwing deflection bonus onto a ring or shoulder item. Best bet is to take a shadow cloak (DotU), increase it's native deflection AC over time, and throw on resist bonus to saves if allowed (per MIC). Now you have a very nice defense item that gives you an immediate teleport out of trouble (yeah, it's short range, but you may not want to go far if you need to be in a melee position anyway), and boosts two very good defensive stats (deflection works against incorporeal touch, and saving throw bonuses are never bad).

[MaxiDuRaritry]

As for having githcraft/whatevercraft, Aid Another is a thing.

[Morcleon]

As for having githcraft/whatevercraft, Aid Another is a thing.

As are diplomacy and intimidate.

And even if you soft-ban feycraft and githcraft, you can always just take one and add thiseldown padding to it. :smalltongue:

[Eisfalken]

As for having githcraft/whatevercraft, Aid Another is a thing.

No, there's a hard rule that you actually HAVE to have 10 ranks of Craft (Weaponsmithing) to even try for it. The DC is just 25 for the manufacturing process; you can do that easily with a decent Int, Skill Focus, and as you noted Aid Another. But you literally can't even TRY to make a Whatevercraft anything without 7 levels of classes that permitted you to buy 10 ranks of Craft in the run. That's RAW.


As are diplomacy and intimidate.

And even if you soft-ban feycraft and githcraft, you can always just take one and add thiseldown padding to it. :smalltongue:

Diplomacy and Intimidate literally don't count for "fey influence". RAW is rather specific: has to be a spell, SLA, or supernatural ability. Nor does it actually overcome the fact you still have to actually find and search for the target with 10 ranks of Craft (weaponsmithing), as originally stated.

As far as the rest of it, everything except Feycraft literally says "must be this type of creature, must be created in this specific plane". The ONLY template that doesn't have that is... Feycraft. You can't have a githcraft fireshaped item. You either make it on the Astral Plane, or you make it on the Elemental Plane of Fire. Unless the DM is pulling some crazy houserule stuff about planes "overlapping" out on you, then RAW says no. You can have a feycraft githcraft, or a feycraft fireshaped, or feycraft whatever. Not a single one of the other templates can stack to each other due to their creation rules.

NONE of which addresses my actual point: why in the name of the gods do you actually need to stack them? ACF? That's stupid. There exactly two kinds of casters who use mithral breastplates: gishes who are dipping spellsword (-10% ACF), who then only need literally ONE thing - feycraft, githcraft, or thistledown - to negate all ACF on armor (theoretically two if they are using a mithral heavy shield, but that plus a weapon means no spellcasting anyway, so...); and every arcane caster that can use light armor without even making ACF checks (bards, hexblades, duskblades, warlocks, etc.). That even assumes the caster doesn't just grab (greater) luminous armor, with is about 100 times better than throwing money away on armor like that, at least if the gish intends to go ab-champ like 99% do now. Christ, even greater mage armor is a better call there; at least then you get +6 armor that works against incorporeal and has not even a single penalty of any kind anywhere, and with ACF reduction elsewhere lets you use a shield as well (if that's your thing; I don't think gishes benefit from them that much, but I can see certain builds that might).

As a proof-of-concept, stacking feycraft with githcraft is feasible. It's not better than almost any other option, and is basically more to say you have money and time to burn on the project, but yes, it is RAW legal.

[Necroticplague]

Just to point out, other than feycraft, the vast majority of templates aren't compatible, because almost all of them are "Must be made by a natural denizen of *PLANE* while on *PLANE*." Thus, outside of Feycraft (which let's people Charmed by a fey produce the object), you can't add other templates together, simply because you can't be native to more than one of the relevant planes.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

No, there's a hard rule that you actually HAVE to have 10 ranks of Craft (Weaponsmithing) to even try for it. The DC is just 25 for the manufacturing process; you can do that easily with a decent Int, Skill Focus, and as you noted Aid Another. But you literally can't even TRY to make a Whatevercraft anything without 7 levels of classes that permitted you to buy 10 ranks of Craft in the run. That's RAW.And how does that, in any way whatsoever, prevent two characters of different races from Aiding Another?


Diplomacy and Intimidate literally don't count for "fey influence". RAW is rather specific: has to be a spell, SLA, or supernatural ability. Nor does it actually overcome the fact you still have to actually find and search for the target with 10 ranks of Craft (weaponsmithing), as originally stated.A gith Aiding Another with a dwarf ancestor, each of which was planar bound by a duskling you commissioned to make the armor for you. It takes a bit of doing, but it's not terribly difficult to engineer a scenario for yourself.


NONE of which addresses my actual point: why in the name of the gods do you actually need to stack them? ACF? That's stupid. There exactly two kinds of casters who use mithral breastplates: gishes who are dipping spellsword (-10% ACF), who then only need literally ONE thing - feycraft, githcraft, or thistledown - to negate all ACF on armor (theoretically two if they are using a mithral heavy shield, but that plus a weapon means no spellcasting anyway, so...); and every arcane caster that can use light armor without even making ACF checks (bards, hexblades, duskblades, warlocks, etc.). That even assumes the caster doesn't just grab (greater) luminous armor, with is about 100 times better than throwing money away on armor like that, at least if the gish intends to go ab-champ like 99% do now. Christ, even greater mage armor is a better call there; at least then you get +6 armor that works against incorporeal and has not even a single penalty of any kind anywhere, and with ACF reduction elsewhere lets you use a shield as well (if that's your thing; I don't think gishes benefit from them that much, but I can see certain builds that might).If people suggest these things with extreme frequency, obviously someone wants them. Don't try to tell people what they do and don't want, because if it's brought up all the time in threads like this, it's pretty clear that it would be useful.


As far as the rest of it, everything except Feycraft literally says "must be this type of creature, must be created in this specific plane". The ONLY template that doesn't have that is... Feycraft. You can't have a githcraft fireshaped item. You either make it on the Astral Plane, or you make it on the Elemental Plane of Fire. Unless the DM is pulling some crazy houserule stuff about planes "overlapping" out on you, then RAW says no. You can have a feycraft githcraft, or a feycraft fireshaped, or feycraft whatever. Not a single one of the other templates can stack to each other due to their creation rules.and


Just to point out, other than feycraft, the vast majority of templates aren't compatible, because almost all of them are "Must be made by a natural denizen of *PLANE* while on *PLANE*." Thus, outside of Feycraft (which let's people Charmed by a fey produce the object), you can't add other templates together, simply because you can't be native to more than one of the relevant planes.Meh. An acorn of far travel using an acorn from the Elemental Plane of Fire while on the Astral Plane, while various planar bound denizens from different planes Aid Another. Not hard.

[zergling.exe]

Meh. An acorn of far travel using an acorn from the Elemental Plane of Fire while on the Astral Plane, while various planar bound denizens from different planes Aid Another. Not hard.

In order to have that work it would have to be the other way around. No tree is going to be able to survive the EPoF.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

In order to have that work it would have to be the other way around. No tree is going to be able to survive the EPoF.A half-elemental offspring of an awakened tree could do it.

[Inevitability]

A half-elemental offspring of an awakened tree could do it.

How... how... I don't even... Just why? Congratulations, you've surpassed the half-dragon gelatinous cube in weirdness.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

How... how... I don't even... Just why? Congratulations, you've surpassed the half-dragon gelatinous cube in weirdness.What, you mean you don't have those in your campaigns?

[Necroticplague]

Meh. An acorn of far travel using an acorn from the Elemental Plane of Fire while on the Astral Plane, while various planar bound denizens from different planes Aid Another. Not hard.

Aid Other doesn't change who's making it. It simply means they have people helping. So you're still limited to Feycraft+1 other, because you can't be native to several planes, though it's possible to be treated as being on several.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Aid Other doesn't change who's making it. It simply means they have people helping. So you're still limited to Feycraft+1 other, because you can't be native to several planes, though it's possible to be treated as being on several.Citation needed.

[Necroticplague]

Citation needed.

The rules don't say everyone who uses Aid other to aid a crafting attempt is the creator. Thus, that statement isn't true.

[zergling.exe]

Citation needed.

Magic item rules, but the closest to RAW you'll likely find:

If two or more characters cooperate to create an item, they must agree among themselves who will be considered the creator for the purpose of determinations where the creator’s level must be known. (It’s generally sensible, although not mandatory, for the highest-level character involved to be considered the creator.) The character designated as the creator pays the XP required to make the item.

As there is nothing about this for mundane items, I wouild assume this rule applies. Thus you can only have one creator of an item.

[GnomishPride]

A half-elemental offspring of an awakened tree could do it.

That provokes some very disturbing images of a fire elemental and a tree doing it. Just... what?

[Jack_Simth]

That provokes some very disturbing images of a fire elemental and a tree doing it. Just... what?
Clearly, the wedding band was a ring of fire resistance.

[Kelb_Panthera]

That provokes some very disturbing images of a fire elemental and a tree doing it. Just... what?

Remember that elementals aren't the only kind of elemental, wierds for example. There's also the old, magical experimentation explanation.

[Divide by Zero]

There's also the old, magical experimentation explanation.

Is there anything "a wizard did it" can't explain?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Is there anything "a wizard did it" can't explain?

In this game? No, not really.

[Inevitability]

Is there anything "a wizard did it" can't explain?

I was going to say 'the existence of the first wizard', but then I remembered Teleport Through Time.

[Divide by Zero]

I was going to say 'the existence of the first wizard', but then I remembered Teleport Through Time.

Truly the greatest philosophical question of our time. Which came first, the wizard or the time-traveling wizard?

[Honest Tiefling]

Remember that elementals aren't the only kind of elemental, wierds for example. There's also the old, magical experimentation explanation.

Clearly, an azer decided to break all of the taboos of his people and seduce his race's most hated enemy: A TREE.

[Red Fel]

Clearly, an azer decided to break all of the taboos of his people and seduce his race's most hated enemy: A TREE.

... I would pay to see that movie. Cue the voice.

He came from a world steeped in tradition. And fire.

She sat on a hillside, waiting for him to appear.

Their love would break every rule, overcome every obstacle, and confuse biologists for generations to come.

This fall, see a love story that will leave you thinking, "Wait... But... How?"

Nicholas Sparks' Azer and Tree.

Passion burns... Like a tree that's on fire.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

... I would pay to see that movie. Cue the voice.

He came from a world steeped in tradition. And fire.

She sat on a hillside, waiting for him to appear.

Their love would break every rule, overcome every obstacle, and confuse biologists for generations to come.

This fall, see a love story that will leave you thinking, "Wait... But... How?"

Nicholas Sparks' Azer and Tree.

Passion burns... Like a tree that's on fire.Honest Trailers: And gives new meaning to the phrase 'morning wood.'

[GnomishPride]

... I would pay to see that movie. Cue the voice.

He came from a world steeped in tradition. And fire.

She sat on a hillside, waiting for him to appear.

Their love would break every rule, overcome every obstacle, and confuse biologists for generations to come.

This fall, see a love story that will leave you thinking, "Wait... But... How?"

Nicholas Sparks' Azer and Tree.

Passion burns... Like a tree that's on fire.

I need this to happen. Also fanart of this needs to be a thing.

[Honest Tiefling]

I need this to happen. Also fanart of this needs to be a thing.

The tree needs a heaving bosom like all great romance book covers.

[Red Fel]

Honest Trailers:

Starring...

A sober Tyrion Lannister.

Thorin Brokenshield.

I AM GROOT!

About seventeen different romance cliches.

And... Ben Kingsley? Dude, that's totally the voice of Ben Kingsley! Man, he's in everything, isn't he?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I need this to happen. Also fanart of this needs to be a thing.Be careful who does it, because I don't want Kristen Stewart playing her, no matter how much her wooden expression and stiff acting would fit.

[Honest Tiefling]

Be careful who does it, because I don't want Kristen Stewart playing her, no matter how much her wooden expression and stiff acting would fit.

You're picky about which attractive woman portrays a tree with heaving boobs that's about to screw a dwarf made out of fire wearing a bronze kilt?

EDIT: All of which is only done to make ASF free armor!?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

You're picky about which attractive woman portrays a tree with heaving boobs that's about to screw a dwarf made out of fire wearing a bronze kilt?

EDIT: All of which is only done to make ASF free armor!?"Kirsten Stewart" and "attractive" shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence unless there's some form of "not" in between them. *Shudder*

If we're going to do this, we're going to do it right.

[Inevitability]

The tree needs a heaving bosom like all great romance book covers.

More like heaving blossom, amirite?

...

I'll see myself out.

[GnomishPride]

You're picky about which attractive woman portrays a tree with heaving boobs that's about to screw a dwarf made out of fire wearing a bronze kilt?

EDIT: All of which is only done to make ASF free armor!?

The real question is, can anyone tell which attractive woman is portraying said well-endowed tree? I mean, trees aren't exactly known for resembling people at all. We could have Donald Trump as the tree, and with enough CGI, no one could tell the difference.

[darkdragoon]

We briefly interrupt hot tree action for pedantry: bard casting in light armor is listed as part of their proficiency, not spellcasting but presumably that's what the bit on Assassin meant to say; Warmage and the like have it as a separate feature ie Armored Mage.

[Deadline]

Is there anything "a wizard did it" can't explain?

In a rare scene caught on film, we have actual evidence that, in this case, a wizard really did do it:

Last Unicorn Tree Scene (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0B2yRDmzBns)

[manyslayer]

We could have Donald Trump as the tree, and with enough CGI, no one could tell the difference.

Donald Stump?

https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/677937439231479808/O2t_f8pW.jpg

[Gildedragon]

There are trees, or shrubs, native to the EPoF like that metal orchid from dragon magazine implies : it presumably grows on a tree of sorts like a lot of orchids do

Also in dragon magazine: caster armor armor template. It reduces acf by... Something (afb for the foreseeable future)