Good ranged builds from 10 to 20?

[Longcat]

What are people's favorite optimized ranged characters from level 10 to 20, whether martial or spellcasters? Assuming feats and Variant Humans are allowed, SCAG is allowed, EE is out.

Criteria I'm looking for:

Playable from level 10 to 20
Good at-will damage
Can function well on both 5min adventuring days and 6 Encounters/Long Rest
Good defenses
Utility outside of combat

[Arkhios]

What are people's favorite optimized ranged characters from level 10 to 20, whether martial or spellcasters? Assuming feats and Variant Humans are allowed, SCAG is allowed, EE is out.

Criteria I'm looking for:

Playable from level 10 to 20
Good at-will damage
Can function well on both 5min adventuring days and 6 Encounters/Long Rest
Good defenses
Utility outside of combat


Not my favorite, per sé (as I prefer melee for some reason), but I've seen it praised numerous times:

College of Valor Bard.
Medium armor and shields, martial weapons, at 10th level you can choose 2 spells from any class up to 5th spell level as your bard spells (I hear Ranger has some great spells for achery), Extra attack, and over all great utility from Bard spells.

[Longcat]

I've considered the Bard build, with the first level being Fighter for archery style. It seems solid, though you'll be limited to about 3 Swift Quivers per day.

[DeAnno]

How enamored of Warlock 2-3/Sorc 8-9 types of shenanigans are you? That is a go-to for ranged spellcasting DPR, and the Sorc side can give you a lot of flexibility out of combat since in combat you can fall back on Quickened Eldritch Blast spam.

If you want to go the weapon damage route instead there is always a Fighter 11 start with Sharpshooter/Crossbow Expert. You could branch into Rogue and other mundane MCs from there for expertise and other prizes, or you could maybe go EK and then slide into a casting class? EK 11 (or 12?) Sharpshooter into Sorc might be interesting, using quickened spells to complement Extra Attack 2 and not bothering with Crossbow Expert (this is way better than War Magic because you get 3 attacks instead of 1). Your casting stats are kind of a mess though, you would probably want to just pick Cha and use EK to pick up non-stat spells.

Basically at the end of the day if you want to do at will Ranged DPR the chances are it's either going to revolve around Eldritch Blast or Sharpshooter and you'll be wanting something to do with your bonus action relatively consistently.

[Gwendol]

Ranged Battlemaster. You can nova like no-one else and have the stats and feats to go with.

[Longcat]

I'd not be opposed to running a Sorc/Warlock multiclass, though we do already have a Dragon Sorcerer in the group who focuses on fire based blasting, so I'd rather not go that route if I can help it.

I have considered Warlock2/Lore Bard X for a mixture of utility and blasting. It seems to do alright, with the occasional Nova options such as Animate Object.

I've yet to try the Battlemaster. I'm afraid that he runs out of steam very soon, as you need to ration your Superiority die to 2/Encounter at a standard 6 Encounter/Long Rest pace. I'm also somewhat concerned about his out of combat utility, which is as low as it gets for a character.

[Sir cryosin]

I'd not be opposed to running a Sorc/Warlock multiclass, though we do already have a Dragon Sorcerer in the group who focuses on fire based blasting, so I'd rather not go that route if I can help it.

I have considered Warlock2/Lore Bard X for a mixture of utility and blasting. It seems to do alright, with the occasional Nova options such as Animate Object.

I've yet to try the Battlemaster. I'm afraid that he runs out of steam very soon, as you need to ration your Superiority die to 2/Encounter at a standard 6 Encounter/Long Rest pace. I'm also somewhat concerned about his out of combat utility, which is as low as it gets for a character.

Why do you say a fighter out of combat utility is low?

[Longcat]

Why do you say a fighter out of combat utility is low?

Minimal amount of skill proficiencies and no applicable class features outside of combat as a Battlemaster.

[MaxWilson]

What are people's favorite optimized ranged characters from level 10 to 20, whether martial or spellcasters? Assuming feats and Variant Humans are allowed, SCAG is allowed, EE is out.

Criteria I'm looking for:

Playable from level 10 to 20
Good at-will damage
Can function well on both 5min adventuring days and 6 Encounters/Long Rest
Good defenses
Utility outside of combat


Eldritch Knight 11/Swashbuckler 9.

It's SAD, good DPR, very mobile, sneaky, and has a fun single-target control ability in the form of Panache. EK adds defensive utility including Absorb Elements, Darkness, and Shield. Thanks to Fighter 6, it gets full ASIs.

============================


Why do you say a fighter out of combat utility is low?

To be fair, he didn't say it was low. He said it was as "low as it gets." At tables where backgrounds and roleplaying provide lots of out-of-combat utility and player decisions matter more than build choices, it could be that everyone including fighters has lots of out-of-combat utility. That's how I prefer to run my game.

[TheFlyingCleric]

Hunter Ranger has good, although not quite fighter level DPR. It's has a much better at-will AOE damage fue to volley however. Ranger also has huge utility as a scout and a half-caster.

[X3r4ph]

Ranger (Deep Stalker) is quite nice on it self. It gains an extra attack every first round of combat.
At 11th level it gets the option to reroll its attack if it misses. How I interpret this is it gets to reroll every failed attack once, until it turns a miss into a hit, then it is spend. It's quite awesome since it works on top of advantage.
The class is also great at hiding in combat, aka staying alive.

Is it better than Hunter? Dunno. But its cool.

[MaxWilson]

Hunter Ranger has good, although not quite fighter level DPR. It's has a much better at-will AOE damage fue to volley however. Ranger also has huge utility as a scout and a half-caster.

It's not quite at-will AoE unless you have infinite ammunition (Swift Quiver?). It is pretty cool though.

I've long wanted to make a Hunter 11/Assassin 3 and play a military-oriented solo campaign as the Punisher vs. armies of orcs and hobgoblins. Stealth +30 and auto-crits when I surprise? Yes, please. Plus crazy good mobility, and Pass Without Trace + Cunning Action.

Actual utility will depend on how often you do in fact fight armies of orcs. If your DM is more into demons and dragons, AoE loses a lot of its important.

[Specter]

Start with Hunter 5/Battlemaster 4/Rogue 1, then go all-out Assassin. Hunter's Mark, Colossus Slayer, Action Surge, Maneuvers, Sharpshooter and Sneak Attack are all you need.

[Slipperychicken]

Minimal amount of skill proficiencies and no applicable class features outside of combat as a Battlemaster.

They can still get thieves tools and be really good at them. A dex fighter with proficiencies in dex skills can do most of the non-combat stuff a rogue is expected to do. It honestly makes me want to try playing a fighter like a rogue sometime.

[Biggstick]

Eldritch Knight 11/Swashbuckler 9.

It's SAD, good DPR, very mobile, sneaky, and has a fun single-target control ability in the form of Panache. EK adds defensive utility including Absorb Elements, Darkness, and Shield. Thanks to Fighter 6, it gets full ASIs.

OP mentioned that EE isn't allowed, making Absorb Elements something he won't have access to. I personally really like the idea of higher levels in Fighter though.

My suggested build, while not amazing, would definitely have some good burst.

Assassin 3 // Battlemaster Fighter 7

Push on through to at least Fighter 11, and then you can go wherever you want from there. Important things to do with this build is to max out Dex, pick up Sharpshooter, as well as the Alert feat. I'd definitely say Sharpshooter and a bump to Dex should be what your first two ASI's are (if you go V Human, you can choose to grab Alert or actually max out the Dex before the start of the campaign). Personally I wouldn't recommend going Human though, as your character will probably be able to serve as a scout, and not having dark vision on a Rogue usually sucks.

Having Battlemaster 7 grants you access to Know your Enemy, one of the very very few abilities in the game that you get to have the DM tell you a creatures stats from the MM. The two in particular you should want to know are the Hitpoints (Once you figure out your damage burst potential with the build, you'll know if you can take the enemy out with a single round) and the AC (So you know if you can tack on your Sharpshooter damage to the target as well in your burst rounds). If you can sneak in somewhere and observe an enemy for more then a minute, you can get even more information about the enemy. After your surprise round, you're going to be able to pop off Sharpshooter shots at a massive range and use the Cunning Action hide/disengage to keep mooks off of you.

[ClintACK]

Honestly hard to see how you can beat straight Fighter for raw damage output. Maybe take Magic Initiate at some point to grab Hex, just to piss off the Ranger with his Hunter's Mark.

Multiclassing would mean giving up Extra Attacks (3) at 20 and probably Action Surge (2) at 17.

Fighter 20: (with sharpshooter, and magic initiate)
1) Bonus: Hex the target
2) Attack action (4 attacks)
3) Action surge Attack (4 attacks)

With *no* magic items and only a 20 Dex, that's 8 attacks at +13 for 1d8+5+1d6 damage each (average 13 damage each for 104 average damage on eight hits). (Or 23 damage each for 184 average damage if +8 is good enough to usually hit.)

And he can do it again the next round.

Your choice of Battlemaster for fun ranged effects like tripping and pushing, or Champion for 15% criticals.

(Throw in an Oathbow, and this juggernaut gets advantage on every one of those 8 attacks and does an additional 24d6 (avg 84) if they all hit -- 268 damage in one round against a big enemy.)


Rogue 3/Fighter 17: (trading Extra Attack (3) and the cap to the martial style for expertise in stealth and perception, 2d6 sneak attack, and assassination autocrits.)

Stealth +17. If he gets a surprise round he can:
Attack: 3 ranged attacks (+8 with advantage) each for 2d8+15 damage (average 24) and 4d6 sneak attack on the first hit (total average 86 damage)
Action surge: 3 more attacks for another 72 average damage.
Bonus Action: Hide again, having dealt 158 damage, on average.

Rinse, repeat, profit.


Can you imagine a party of Assassin 3/Fighters with one Assassin 3/Ranger to cast Pass Without A Trace on the lot of them? Maybe one with Magic Initiate:Bless and another with Magic Initiate:Faerie Fire. *shudder* Perhaps the survivors of a massacred elven village pursuing a guerrilla war of vengeance against the goblinoid horde that's sweeping the land. (Eventual TPK only to continue their campaign on the battle plains of Acheron for all eternity...)

[MaxWilson]

Push on through to at least Fighter 11, and then you can go wherever you want from there. Important things to do with this build is to max out Dex, pick up Sharpshooter, as well as the Alert feat. I'd definitely say Sharpshooter and a bump to Dex should be what your first two ASI's are (if you go V Human, you can choose to grab Alert or actually max out the Dex before the start of the campaign). Personally I wouldn't recommend going Human though, as your character will probably be able to serve as a scout, and not having dark vision on a Rogue usually sucks.

I also dislike not having darkvision on a rogue, but that's because I like characters who can work well alone as well as in a party. In a party situation, it might not be a big deal to get the Moon Druid or wizard or ranger to cast Darkvision on you if they want you to scout ahead of the party alone. As an Eldritch Knight you could even theoretically cast it on yourself, but I have other things I'd rather do with my precious non-abj/evoc slots. Overall I agree, human would not be my top pick in this case.

Note as well though that darkvision usually doesn't go beyond 60' anyway, so if you need to equalize the fight with a monster, simply back up beyond 60' range (use your hearing to figure out how far you need to go) and then shoot the monster. Neither you can see the other, but you're Alert, so you don't have disadvantage to hit the monster (advantage + disadvantage from mutual blindness cancel out) but it has disadvantage to hit you, if it even has ranged weapons. In close quarters like a dungeon crawl where you can't back away, you can drop a Darkness spell on yourself (evoc spell, acquired at EK 7) to accomplish the same thing, at the cost of your concentration.

So in practice, the major problem with lack of darkvision is that it interferes with exploration, not so much with combat.


Having Battlemaster 7 grants you access to Know your Enemy, one of the very very few abilities in the game that you get to have the DM tell you a creatures stats from the MM. The two in particular you should want to know are the Hitpoints (Once you figure out your damage burst potential with the build, you'll know if you can take the enemy out with a single round) and the AC (So you know if you can tack on your Sharpshooter damage to the target as well in your burst rounds). If you can sneak in somewhere and observe an enemy for more then a minute, you can get even more information about the enemy. After your surprise round, you're going to be able to pop off Sharpshooter shots at a massive range and use the Cunning Action hide/disengage to keep mooks off of you.

Unfortunately, Know Your Enemy doesn't work this way unless the DM alters it, which he should because the PHB version is nigh-useless. You don't get to learn your enemy's HP. You just learn whether he is your equal/superior/inferior in regard to current HP (or other quality that you choose). If you have a lot of HP, learning that your enemy has fewer HP than you is pretty useless.

As a DM I'd just do exactly what you suggest and tell the player how many HP the creature has left. But by RAW the DM does not tell you stats.

[JeffreyGator]

I've considered the Bard build, with the first level being Fighter for archery style. It seems solid, though you'll be limited to about 3 Swift Quivers per day.

You can get 2 swift quivers / long rest + 2 swift quivers / short rest with Bard 10/ fighter 1 / warlock 9.

either lore bard or blade lock gets the 2 attacks.

However with this combination there are lots of other things you can do with concentration besides 2 extra attacks.
(4 attacks at +8 doing d10+15)

With a hand cross bow (and the feat) you get 1 extra attack without concentration.

So you can concentrate on hex +1d6 damage or elemental weapon (5th) +2d4 damage and +2 to hit.
(3 attacks at +10 doing d6+2d4+15)

The trick is making it work best while leveling.

From level 12 on you have most things.
sharpshooter, crossbow expert, multi-attack, elemental weapon and hex with lore bard 6/ftr1/bladelock 5

[Biggstick]

Unfortunately, Know Your Enemy doesn't work this way unless the DM alters it, which he should because the PHB version is nigh-useless. You don't get to learn your enemy's HP. You just learn whether he is your equal/superior/inferior in regard to current HP (or other quality that you choose). If you have a lot of HP, learning that your enemy has fewer HP than you is pretty useless.

As a DM I'd just do exactly what you suggest and tell the player how many HP the creature has left. But by RAW the DM does not tell you stats.

Wow, what a fail misread on my part. Thank you for the correction. The AC part is still something one could definitely utilize though, as you're likely to have 16-17 AC at without magic armor.

And even though not quite as useful as I initially thought, knowing if a target has more HP then you (or less) could still be useful.

Know Your Enemy also allows you to be able to size up your enemies by checking for Total Class Levels as well. An example might be walking into a royal hall with a king and it's guards. You'd be able to sit back while someone talks the talk and size up a good portion of the occupants in the room (Total Class levels, AC, whatever you feel would help).

[DeAnno]

I've yet to try the Battlemaster. I'm afraid that he runs out of steam very soon, as you need to ration your Superiority die to 2/Encounter at a standard 6 Encounter/Long Rest pace. I'm also somewhat concerned about his out of combat utility, which is as low as it gets for a character.

The rest issue isn't quite as bad as you would expect, if you keep it mostly to Precision Attack when it seems like you've missed by a small amount. This is part of why I typically prefer Scout or Monster Hunter on ranged Fighter, since you get more skill proficiencies and don't lose the critical maneuver you need, but with no UA that's obviously not an option. I do believe that Extra Attack 2 with 5d10 Superiority dice is very hard to beat for strict ranged damage output, but yeah, the out of combat support on Battlemaster is pretty lacking.

A less extreme path than the one I mentioned earlier (and one that starts working sooner) is Sorcerer 5/Battlemaster Fighter 6. With that setup at level 11 you can Quicken third level spells and do Extra attacks with superiority dice. It's probably worse than Favored Soul for the purpose, but that's UA too ... so. You get proficient Constitution saves, so it's a nice setup for Quickening Haste on turn 1, making three ranged attacks (five with action surge), and then making 3 ranged attacks and a quickened spell per round after that, in nova combats.

Really, the default for "ranged DPR with utility at high levels" is definitely the Warlock 2-3/Sorcerer X build though, so I'm mostly just reaching at alternative options.

[MaxWilson]

Wow, what a fail misread on my part. Thank you for the correction. The AC part is still something one could definitely utilize though, as you're likely to have 16-17 AC at without magic armor.

And even though not quite as useful as I initially thought, knowing if a target has more HP then you (or less) could still be useful.

Know Your Enemy also allows you to be able to size up your enemies by checking for Total Class Levels as well. An example might be walking into a royal hall with a king and it's guards. You'd be able to sit back while someone talks the talk and size up a good portion of the occupants in the room (Total Class levels, AC, whatever you feel would help).

Yeah, it's an ability with really neat potential, and as a DM I go out of my way to present situations where it would be useful, such as encounters which don't have to turn hostile but can if the players choose to make them so. I don't actually have any battlemasters at the table right now, but that doesn't matter--I want the players to read the Know Your Enemy entry in the PHB and think, "Hmmm, that would be useful for my next PC."

[Longcat]

Thanks for the input so far! Our current campaign skirts the lines between combat-as-war and combat-as-sports, combining strategy, investigation and combat in equal parts. Combat takes up about 50% of screentime, so it's crucial to be effective there. My current character has been great outside of combat and mediocre during combat, and the party is really melee heavy, which is why I'm considering a switch.

For reference, the rest of the party consists of:
-Variant Human Vengeance Paladin (GWM)
-Mountain Dwarf Bear Barbarian (Shield Master)
-Variant Human Life Cleric
-Variant Human Fire Dragon Sorcerer
-High Elf Fighter/Bladesinger (my current character, which I wish to retire)

The Sorcerer usually casts Twinned Haste on the Barbarian and Paladin. If I could convince him to include me instead of the Barbarian, that would be great. We don't have a dedicated tank, as both the Paladin and the Barbarian consider themselves damage dealers and tend to position themselves with limited exposure to enemies, much to the chagrin of our Paladin, who tends to be much squishier than the Barbarian.

I'm currently considering the following, bearing in mind party synergy:

Warlock2/Lore Bard8, with the rest of the levels as Lore Bard (aka "NotKvothe"):
+More or less a full spellcaster.
+Eldritch Blast+Hex is solid DPR, though lower than Archery+Sharpshooter.
+Spiritual Weapon via Lore Bard 6 gives me an additional damage source with my Bonus Action.
+Great Utility via 9 skill proficiencies and Expertise. Also covers the skillmonkey role which we currently lack.
+/-Variant Human to grab Moderately Armored, as it brings the paper AC to a more bearable level. Lack of Darkvision compensated by taking Devil's Sight.
+/-Does not benefit from Haste
-Requires two turns to reach optimal DPR, as both Hex and Spiritual Weapon require Bonus Actions.
-Lack of mobility. No Misty Step or Cunning Action to disengage from melee. Really gimped if forced into melee.
-Limited AoE. Neither Thunderwave, Shatter nor Fireball (via Magical Secrets) scale up well.
-Limited Nova potential. Even Animate Object (Tiny) is only ~40 DPR vs level appropriate enemies.

Hunter5/Assassin3/Fighter2, going into Hunter5/Assassin11/Battlemaster4 or Hunter5/Assassin3/Battlemaster12 (aka "TotallyNotLegolas"):
+Great DPR with two Longbow Attacks, Hunter's Mark, Colossus Slayer and Sneak Attack. Due to three other melee characters, Sneak Attack is all but guaranteed.
+Cunning Action(Hide) for more liberal use of Sharpshooter. Combined with Pass without Trace and Expertise, the character is very stealthy.
+Great Nova potential with Assassinate and Action Surge.
+Slippery due to being ranged, Cunning Action, Uncanny Dodge and Evasion.
+Great Utility with 8 skill proficiencies, Expertise and some minor spellcasting. Also covers the skillmonkey role which we currently lack.
+/-Variant Human for Sharpshooter. Ranger5 gives me access to the Darkvision spell for scouting.
-Hunter's Mark and Cunning Action have an action conflict, and as I want to Cunning Action every turn ideally, it might not work out.
-No AoE, unless you count Hail of Thorns.
-Almost no Long Rest resources. Might suffer during 5min adventure days if Assassinate is not possible.

Battlemaster7/Assassin3, going into Battlemaster12/Assassin5/War Cleric3 (aka "DefinitelyNotLegolas"):
+Great DPR with up to three Ranged Attacks and Sneak Attack. Due to three other melee characters, Sneak Attack is all but guaranteed.
+Battlemaster Maneuvers to boost accuracy or damage.
+Cunning Action(Hide) for more liberal use of Sharpshooter.
+Great Nova potential with Assassinate and Action Surge.
+Slippery due to being ranged, Cunning Action.
+Great Utility with 6/7 skill proficiencies, Expertise and some minor spellcasting. Also covers the skillmonkey role which we currently lack.
+Fighter ASIs allow more flexibility for racial choice. I can either be an Elf by retraining my current character, making the character change a lot less invasive, or choose Halfling for easier Hiding and re-rolling 1s.
+Divine Favor synergizes better than Hunter's Mark with the build.
-Almost no Long Rest resources. Might suffer during 5min adventure days if Assassinate is not possible.
-No AoE.

Suggestions?

[Malifice]

Is unearthed arcana in use?

Investigative Rogue 4 (or Assasin, take your pick), Monster hunter (or battlemaster) Fighter 6, Vuman. +4 Dex, sharpshooter, crossbow expert.

Your basic move is to fire your pistol crossbow three times per round at +6 dealing 1d6+15 per shot (plus 2d6 sneak attack on the first hit). Its a pretty consistent 60 DPR every single round with zero resource expenditure.

If you miss, you get to spam a sup dice to turn it into a hit. If you hit, you can spam one to increase the damage.

Action surge + sup dice nova = 100+ damage easy. All recovers on a short rest.

Defence wise, you can spam a sup dice to add to a Int, Wis or Cha save.

You also have cunning action, expertise and crap tons of skills.

Witch hunter type:

http://orig05.deviantart.net/b660/f/2013/095/3/3/witch_hunter_by_sirhanselot-d60j97r.jpg

[Giant2005]

Warlock 2/Eldritch Knight 7/Rogue 11 is a favorite.
Main attack is EB + AB, bonus action is a sneak attack enhanced heavy crossbow shot. Use Darkness + Devil's Sight for easy advantage.
The DPR is among the highest in the game, all 3 classes bring great utility, doesn't require any feats to shine, and the progression is more linear than even pure class characters. If you really wanted to, you could even ditch Reliable Talent and a sneak attack die to get a 6th feat/ASI (more than any non-Rogue or Fighter pure class) by dropping Rogue to 10 and raising EK to 8 - although I wouldn't recommend it as you don't need the ASI, and Reliable Talent + a Sneak Die is worth more than any feat.
If you can use UA, Close-Quarters Shooter is the perfect Fighting Style as it applies to both EB and your Heavy Crossbow.

[Longcat]

@Malifice: No UA for me, (un)fortunately. Which is just as well, as Ambuscade and Tunnel Fighter would raise the optimization level even further in our games, and I'd rather we all become more down to earth. Which is currently not possible, so if you can't beat them, join them.

I'm not sure about the Hand Crossbow. While Hand Crossbow + Shield is good for AC (our group is adamantly against Sage Advice, primarily due to the Paladin wanting to keep his GWF re-rolls on Divine Smite and the Sorcerer wanting to keep +Cha on every single Scorching Ray), I think any Rogue build would rather want Cunning Action(Hide) every single turn if possible, as Advantage offsets the penalty from Sharpshooter effectively.

I should also note that our DM tends to use Monsters on the higher end of the AC spectrum to keep the -5/+10 feats from being too dominating. Against AC17, the numbers (assuming a +2 weapon, as everyone in the group has that) seem to be:
-2 Longbow attacks with 2d6 SA: 25.5 DPR
-2 Longbow attacks with Advantage from Stealth and 2d6 SA: 28.5 DPR
-2 Longbow attacks with 2d6 SA and SS: 30 DPR
-2 Longbow attacks with Advantage from Stealth and 2d6 SA and SS: 42.5 DPR
-2 Hand Crossbow attack with 2d6 SA: 23.8 DPR
-2 Hand Crossbow attack with 2d6 SA and SS: 28.8 DPR
-3 Hand Crossbow attacks with 2d6 SA: 32.7 DPR
-3 Hand Crossbow attacks with 2d6 SA and SS: 41.1 DPR

Basically, the Hand Crossbow is better if you can stand and shoot and either can't Stealth or can't/don't want to SS. If you can both Stealth and SS or you need to disengage with Cunning Action on your turn, the Longbow is superior. If Bracers of Archery enter the game, the Longbow becomes even better.


@Giant2005: That does sound interesting, though the build is a bit MAD, requiring both 20 Dex and 20 Cha with just 2 ASIs at lvl 10. I can see level 11 being really strong at Warlock2/EK7/Rogue2, with the ability to disengage as a bonus Action and doing 3 EBs + 1 attack.

Assuming we max Cha first and then go for Dex, we'd have 20 Cha and 16 Dex. Let's assume a +2 Wand of the War Mage and a +2 Heavy Crossbow. At Lvl 10, those numbers are:
-Casting Hex, 2 Eldritch Blasts: 21 DPR
-2 Eldritch Blasts and 1 Heavy Crossbow shot, without Hex: 28.88 DPR
-2 Eldritch Blasts and 1 Heavy Crossbow shot, with Hex: 36.75 DPR

At Level 11, we see a massive spike:
-Casting Hex, 3 Eldritch Blasts: 31.5 DPR
-3 Eldritch Blasts and 1 Heavy Crossbow shot, without Hex: 36.75 DPR
-3 Eldritch Blasts and 1 Heavy Crossbow shot, with Hex: 47.25 DPR

It seems to stack up well against the martial archers, though we did assume a rather generous magical loadout.

I'd rather not use Darkness+Devil's Sight as it would **** over three other players, especially as we are facing Fiends with increasing frequency.

[MaxWilson]

Thanks for the input so far! Our current campaign skirts the lines between combat-as-war and combat-as-sports, combining strategy, investigation and combat in equal parts. Combat takes up about 50% of screentime, so it's crucial to be effective there. My current character has been great outside of combat and mediocre during combat, and the party is really melee heavy, which is why I'm considering a switch.

*snip*

We don't have a dedicated tank, as both the Paladin and the Barbarian consider themselves damage dealers and tend to position themselves with limited exposure to enemies, much to the chagrin of our Paladin, who tends to be much squishier than the Barbarian.

I'm currently considering the following, bearing in mind party synergy:

Warlock2/Lore Bard8, with the rest of the levels as Lore Bard (aka "NotKvothe"):
+More or less a full spellcaster.
+Eldritch Blast+Hex is solid DPR, though lower than Archery+Sharpshooter.
+Spiritual Weapon via Lore Bard 6 gives me an additional damage source with my Bonus Action.
+Great Utility via 9 skill proficiencies and Expertise. Also covers the skillmonkey role which we currently lack.
+/-Variant Human to grab Moderately Armored, as it brings the paper AC to a more bearable level. Lack of Darkvision compensated by taking Devil's Sight.
+/-Does not benefit from Haste
-Requires two turns to reach optimal DPR, as both Hex and Spiritual Weapon require Bonus Actions.
-Lack of mobility. No Misty Step or Cunning Action to disengage from melee. Really gimped if forced into melee.
-Limited AoE. Neither Thunderwave, Shatter nor Fireball (via Magical Secrets) scale up well.
-Limited Nova potential. Even Animate Object (Tiny) is only ~40 DPR vs level appropriate enemies.

*snip*

Suggestions?

This one, Bardlock. You have no dedicated tank, but if you take Conjure Animals as one of your magical secrets you can flood the battlefield with crocodiles and rhinoceroses and giant snakes and whatnot and your paladin will love you for it. (If you hate large numbers of minions and want to stick to a single CR 2 creature, I recommend asking your DM for the Giant Constrictor Snake, which effectively comes with a built-in Sentinel feat, except even better because it also restrains the target to grant advantage on followup attacks.) Then you blast away with Agonizing Repelling Eldritch Blast to add even more control to the battlefield. Bonus points if you knock an enemy off a cliff/into a pit/into Wall of Fire/etc.

Forget about Hex though except in cheap, unimportant fights, or if you want to cripple an enemy's Athletics check. Mostly you have better things to do with your concentration, such as Faerie Fire.

If you do this, and take Booming Blade as one of your Warlock cantrips, you're simultaneously a ranged DPR guy and a tank by proxy. Which, as you've mentioned, your party really needs.

Also you get to have fun with Cutting Words/Bardic Inspiration that refreshes on a short rest; and Stealth/Athletics Expertise; and Aura of Vitality if you want to be an awesome healer too. With your Moderately Armored feat plus Cutting Words you're even a decent tank, good enough to wade in and cast a Fear spell right in the thick of combat without worrying too much about squishiness. Sounds like fun.

BTW when you say "No nova potential" don't overlook Forcecage: taking one enemy out of the fight entirely is a pretty decent "nova" even if it doesn't actually kill him. In many situation where you'd want a nova, Forcecage is better. Fear, Otto's Irresistable Dance, Teleport, and Power Word Kill (which I don't like but some people do) are all similarly useful in nova-ish situations. And then there's True Polymorph (adult red dragon)... it's not an instantaneous nova, but it does give you a pretty good nova option (breath weapon) every three rounds or so after that, and good melee attacks on the other rounds. Maybe you could get your Sorcerer buddy to Haste that.

Also don't overlook the usefulness of Regenerate. As long as you don't get critted into three death save failures, and as long as you don't take more than your total HP in damage in one shot, you cannot die as long as Regenerate is on. Can use on yourself or someone else.

[Giant2005]

I'd rather not use Darkness+Devil's Sight as it would **** over three other players, especially as we are facing Fiends with increasing frequency.

You are ranged - if you use Darkness on yourself and not the enemy, your allies would only be effected if they were ranged too and for some reason you were all standing next to one another.

[MaxWilson]

You are ranged - if you use Darkness on yourself and not the enemy, your allies would only be effected if they were ranged too and for some reason you were all standing next to one another.

By RAW, Darkness creates heavy obscurement, and heavy obscurement prevents others from seeing you. It doesn't prevent you (http://www.5esrd.com/gamemastering/the-environment) from seeing out.


Darkness and other effects that obscure vision can prove a significant hindrance.

A given area might be lightly or heavily obscured. In a lightly obscured area, such as dim light, patchy fog, or moderate foliage, creatures have disadvantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on sight.

A heavily obscured area—such as darkness, opaque fog, or dense foliage—blocks vision entirely. A creature effectively suffers from the blinded condition (see appendix A) when trying to see something in that area.

The presence or absence of light in an environment creates three categories of illumination: bright light, dim light, and darkness.

Bright light lets most creatures see normally. Even gloomy days provide bright light, as do torches, lanterns, fires, and other sources of illumination within a specific radius.

Dim light, also called shadows, creates a lightly obscured area. An area of dim light is usually a boundary between a source of bright light, such as a torch, and surrounding darkness. The soft light of twilight and dawn also counts as dim light. A particularly brilliant full moon might bathe the land in dim light.

Darkness creates a heavily obscured area. Characters face darkness outdoors at night (even most moonlit nights), within the confines of an unlit dungeon or a subterranean vault, or in an area of magical darkness.

The Darkness spell create darkness that darkvision can't see through, but it's still just Darkness, which means it doesn't hamper people shooting out of it at all. It would hamper melee attackers within in, because presumably they'd be targeting other creatures which are also within it--but if you're shooting at someone in the light and you're in the dark, you have advantage to hit, whether or not you have Devil's Sight.

This also works with other forms of heavy obscurement such as Fog Cloud and Sleet Storm. And note that most fiends cannot see through a Fog Cloud/Sleet Storm--all they've got is Devil's Sight or (in some cases) Truesight, not Blindsight. Truesight doesn't let you ignore visual obstructions like Fog Cloud the way Blindsight does.

[Giant2005]

By RAW, Darkness creates heavy obscurement, and heavy obscurement prevents others from seeing you. It doesn't prevent you (http://www.5esrd.com/gamemastering/the-environment) from seeing out.

But it does give you the blinded condition (unless you can see through it via Devil's Sight or something equivalent).
PHB page 183: "A creature in a heavily obscured area effectively suffers from the blinded condition (see appendix A)."

[MaxWilson]

But it does give you the blinded condition (unless you can see through it via Devil's Sight or something equivalent).
PHB page 183: "A creature in a heavily obscured area effectively suffers from the blinded condition (see appendix A)."

Looks like you're referring to a pre-errata (https://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/Errata_PH.pdf) copy of the PHB.


Adventuring
Suffocating (p. 183). If you run out of
breath, you can’t regain hit points or be
stabilized until you can breathe again.
Vision and Light (p. 183). A heavily
obscured area doesn’t blind you, but you
are effectively blinded when you try to see
something obscured by it.
Long Rest (p. 186). You regain at least 1
Hit Die when you finish a long rest.

The original PHB rules on Darkness were so insane that I doubt anyone ever applied them as written--a guy with a torch standing in a 600' wide dark cavern could see everything in the cavern, but no enemies could see him. The errata updates darkness to work just like darkness in real life--you can't see things that are in the dark. Intuitive and easy.

[Giant2005]

Looks like you're referring to a pre-errata (https://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/Errata_PH.pdf) copy of the PHB.

You are right in that I was referring to a pre-errata version. I don't see how it makes a difference though - it doesn't matter if you are in the center of the darkness and looking out; or someone from outside is trying to look at you in the center of the darkness. Either way, there is a layer of darkness in between you and what you are trying to look at, that is providing heavy obscurement.

[Longcat]

You are ranged - if you use Darkness on yourself and not the enemy, your allies would only be effected if they were ranged too and for some reason you were all standing next to one another.

Note that our enemies are frequently unimpeded by magical or natural Darkness, e.g. Fiends with Truesight.

[MaxWilson]

You are right in that I was referring to a pre-errata version. I don't see how it makes a difference though - it doesn't matter if you are in the center of the darkness and looking out; or someone from outside is trying to look at you in the center of the darkness. Either way, there is a layer of darkness in between you and what you are trying to look at, that is providing heavy obscurement.

I've quoted to you twice why it matters. Heavy obscurement does not blind those within it. It blinds you when you try to see something that is heavily obscured. They went out of their way to clarify this in the errata--your interpretation is not supported by post-errata RAW.

And it would be silly if you did. If I'm holding up a candle in a dark cavern, is everything in the dark unable to see me because there is "a layer of darkness" between me and them? Of course not. The revised errata reflect the only sensible way for darkness to work, which is that you can't see things that are in the dark, unless you have some special means of perception.

============================


Note that our enemies are frequently unimpeded by magical or natural Darkness, e.g. Fiends with Truesight.

But fiends without Blindsight/Tremorsense cannot see through other forms of heavy obscurement, such as Fog Cloud, Stinking Cloud, or Sleet Storm. Truesight doesn't help. Off the top of my head the only Fiends I can think of with Blindsight are Mezzoloths, Nycaloths, Chasmes, and Barlguras. Mariliths and Pit Fiends don't have it.

[Giant2005]

I've quoted to you twice why it matters. Heavy obscurement does not blind those within it. It blinds you when you try to see something that is heavily obscured. They went out of their way to clarify this in the errata--your interpretation is not supported by post-errata RAW.

Your very own post-errata quote supports it "A heavily obscured area doesn’t blind you, but you are effectively blinded when you try to see something obscured by it."
A wall of darkness that you can't see through, between you and your target, is the very definition of heavily obscured.

[MaxWilson]

Your very own post-errata quote supports it "A heavily obscured area doesn’t blind you, but you are effectively blinded when you try to see something obscured by it."
A wall of darkness that you can't see through, between you and your target, is the very definition of heavily obscured.

If there were such a wall of darkness, yes. That's called "assuming your conclusion" though. It's tautological that you can't see things that you can't see. So what?

The only such wall of darkness-type effect in 5E is Hunger of Hadar, though. ("No light, magical or otherwise, can illuminate the area, and creatures fully within the area are blinded.") Darkness doesn't cut it, that just creates regular darkness.

And, as mentioned repeatedly, there are other ways to create heavy obscurement. The only thing special about Darkness is that it's mobile, and fairly long-duration.

[Giant2005]

If there were such a wall of darkness, yes. That's called "assuming your conclusion" though. It's tautological that you can't see things that you can't see. So what?

The only such wall of darkness-type effect in 5E is Hunger of Hadar, though. ("No light, magical or otherwise, can illuminate the area, and creatures fully within the area are blinded.") Darkness doesn't cut it, that just creates regular darkness.

And, as mentioned repeatedly, there are other ways to create heavy obscurement. The only thing special about Darkness is that it's mobile, and fairly long-duration.

This is what makes Darkness special: "A creature with darkvision can’t see through this darkness, and nonmagical light can’t illuminate it."
or are you suggesting those are the only two things that can't penetrate the darkness, as in you can see through it just fine as long as you don't have darkvision?

[MaxWilson]

This is what makes Darkness special: "A creature with darkvision can’t see through this darkness, and nonmagical light can’t illuminate it."
or are you suggesting those are the only two things that can't penetrate the darkness, as in you can see through it just fine as long as you don't have darkvision?

It lacks the "creatures within it are blinded" clause of Hunger of Hadar.

[Giant2005]

It lacks the "creatures within it are blinded" clause of Hunger of Hadar.

But it doesn't need it. The rules for heavy obscurement that you cited provide that condition. Crawford Agrees (http://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/05/14/if-a-creature-inside-a-darkness-spell-throws-a-ranged-attack/).

[MaxWilson]

But it doesn't need it. The rules for heavy obscurement that you cited provide that condition. Crawford Agrees (http://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/05/14/if-a-creature-inside-a-darkness-spell-throws-a-ranged-attack/).

You'd be blinded by RAW if the creature you were targeting was also within the Darkness (or any other heavy obscurement). Crawford and I would both agree with you there. But there's nothing in RAW that makes you blinded when the target is not within heavy obscurement. Crawford's tweet there doesn't support you there--he's just citing the rules for disadvantage cancelling. It's possible that Crawford would agree with your interpretation anyway (you'd have to ask him explicitly) but even if so, he'd be wrong... not for the first time. Look at the recent thing about druid wildshape and max HP for another example.

And, for the fifth time, Darkness isn't the only way to gain heavy obscurement. You can use other sources of heavy obscurement such as Fog Cloud, including against fiends, and there's only like four fiends in the whole book that can see through it (due to Blindsight). Truesight doesn't help.

Look, dude. The rules for heavy obscurement are unambiguous. It blinds those trying to see within the heavily-obscured areas; it doesn't blind people trying to see out. Can you quote a single sentence anywhere in the PHB or SRD that says otherwise? Or are you trying to claim a special case for Darkness that makes it work differently from other heavy obscurement?

[Giant2005]

A heavily obscured area is one that blocks vision from you "A heavily obscured area—such as darkness, opaque fog, or dense foliage—blocks vision entirely."
If there is a wall of darkness between you and the area that you wish to see, and you cannot see through the darkness via not having the ability to see through magical darkness, then that darkness is blocking your vision. It is creating a heavily obscured area behind it. It is irrelevant which side of the wall you are standing on - it isn't a one-way mirror or something. It is equally opaque from either side.
Those are the rules - if something is completely blocking your vision whether it be by darkness, foliage, or even just by a hanging sheet between you and your target; then it is heavily obscured.

[djreynolds]

What are people's favorite optimized ranged characters from level 10 to 20, whether martial or spellcasters? Assuming feats and Variant Humans are allowed, SCAG is allowed, EE is out.

Criteria I'm looking for:

Playable from level 10 to 20
Good at-will damage
Can function well on both 5min adventuring days and 6 Encounters/Long Rest
Good defenses
Utility outside of combat


Well that's kicker.

Anything warlock is fine, as long as you can take agonizing and repelling blast, then go sorcerer for the rest. You don't need armor, but you can use mage armor, better than leather, and get a respectable AC and have the shield spell handy, if you snag sorcerer levels.

This is just fine, concentrate on a potent spell, and just spam Eldritch blast. Some people will say grab crossbow expert so you use EB in melee, but just use shocking grasp instead, and then leave melee and go back to shooting EB.

Beginning sorcerer will net con saves, good. Then max out charisma, snag resilient wisdom. Warlock 4/sorcerer ? EB will carry you. You can even cast fly on yourself, or grab tiefling variant. You have mirror image and fireshield as go to non-concentration spells. Grab pact of the tome, great utility there.

Maxing out charisma and snagging resilient wisdom will be 3 feats/ASI. 2 left over, constitution is a great spot for those.

[MaxWilson]

A heavily obscured area is one that blocks vision from you "A heavily obscured area—such as darkness, opaque fog, or dense foliage—blocks vision entirely."

So you're going to rule that a guy standing in a dark cavern waving a torch around is invisible because the darkness around is "blocking vision"? Okay, good luck with that. The PHB errata was explicitly written to fix this situation, but you can keep the old rules if you like.

The PHB is clear. Heavy obscurement only blocks your ability to see those within heavy obscurement. There are some issues with this from a realism standpoint (one-way fog clouds) but at least it makes darkness work correctly.

[Giant2005]

So you're going to rule that a guy standing in a dark cavern waving a torch around is invisible because the darkness around is "blocking vision"? Okay, good luck with that.

Nope - normal Darkness doesn't block light so you could see the torch bearer just fine. However the Darkness spell doesn't play by those rules, it would block the light and render those within invisible.

[MaxWilson]

Nope - normal Darkness doesn't block light so you could see the torch bearer just fine. However the Darkness spell doesn't play by those rules, it would block the light and render those within invisible.

So, are you changing your mind about your claim in post #38? You said there that the Darkness spell doesn't need Hunger of Hadar language because the rules for heavy obscurement covered it; but now you're saying that normal darkness (which is heavy obscurement, same as the Darkness spell) doesn't block light after all.

You seem to be claiming special privileges for the Darkness spell but I can't pin down what your argument actually is. Could you please restate?

(Or we could just drop it, because I doubt either of us is going to change the way we run darkness based on an Internet forum conversation.)

[Giant2005]

So, are you changing your mind about your claim in post #38? You said there that the Darkness spell doesn't need Hunger of Hadar language because the rules for heavy obscurement covered it; but now you're saying that normal darkness (which is heavy obscurement, same as the Darkness spell) doesn't block light after all.

You seem to be claiming special privileges for the Darkness spell but I can't pin down what your argument actually is. Could you please restate?

(Or we could just drop it, because I doubt either of us is going to change the way we run darkness based on an Internet forum conversation.)

Again, the darkness created by the Darkness spell is not natural Darkness. It explicitly states that light cannot get through. My position hasn't changed, nor does it need to change. If light can't get through something, then you cannot see through it. If you cannot see through something, it is heavily obscuring an area.

[MaxWilson]

Again, the darkness created by the Darkness spell is not natural Darkness. It explicitly states that light cannot get through. My position hasn't changed, nor does it need to change. If light can't get through something, then you cannot see through it. If you cannot see through something, it is heavily obscuring an area.

No it doesn't.


Magical darkness spreads from a point you choose within range to fill a 15-foot-radius sphere for the duration. The darkness spreads around corners. A creature with darkvision can’t see through this darkness, and nonmagical light can’t illuminate it.

It stays Dark even when you bring a torch next to it. But there's nothing about light "can't get through it" (whatever that means) nor any suggestion at all that a regular person in it can't see out.

It's dark, yo. Not an inky cloud of blackness. If it were supposed to be an inky cloud of blackness it would say "creatures within it are blinded", just like Hunger of Hadar does.

[MrStabby]

I would go for the lore bard 8 warlock 2 build. You get powerful ranged combat ability, a great use of a bonus action to support your team (inspiration) and some great support spells.

Magical secrets can boost your ranged power - fireball for example or can get you counterspell.

You could also go warlock 2, lore bard 6, rogue 2. You can play hide and seek, popping up to eldritch blast with advantage and have a great range of support spells and abilities (4 expertise for a start). Alternately drop the bard for more warlock - static invisibility at will, familiar or a load of rituals may work well to make you a great scout, sniper and general utility guy.


One thing not mentioned - is the necromancer. Plenty of opportunities for a hail of arrows from a swarm of minions.

[Longcat]

@MaxWilson: Good points on the Warlock/Bard build. I'm a little bit concerned about it being too much of a support character though, spending several actions in a typically 3-8 turn combat on support/crowd control actions before actually getting to the meat. This was one of my main gripes with the Bladesinger too, as my first turn was essentially dead due to activating Bladesong/casting Haste, resulting in a single weak attack. With Summon Elemental, it gets a bit better. I'd like to aim for a primarily damage dealing character, with support functionality strictly second.

@MrStabby: Our party is nominally good-aligned, so unfortunately no Animate Dead. I'm not sure about sacrificing 4-5 caster levels on the Bard side, it seems a bit much.

[MrStabby]

Sacrificing caster levels may or may not be an issue.

With (usually) one action per turn you will either be taking the attack action or a spell most times.

The better your at will damage, the less you need spell slots for damage spells and the more you can look to them for other functions like out of combat or crowd control.

This is why warlock 2 is such a good start for so many of these, not because it is better than a fighter at damage, but because it lets you be pretty solid at something AND select whatever classes you want to represent the other things you are good at (this is why I suggested a couple or rogue for guerrilla blaster).

I may have been interpreting "good" to mean fun (with a bit of emphasis on versatile), rather than good being "lots of damage".

[MaxWilson]

@MaxWilson: Good points on the Warlock/Bard build. I'm a little bit concerned about it being too much of a support character though, spending several actions in a typically 3-8 turn combat on support/crowd control actions before actually getting to the meat. This was one of my main gripes with the Bladesinger too, as my first turn was essentially dead due to activating Bladesong/casting Haste, resulting in a single weak attack. With Summon Elemental, it gets a bit better. I'd like to aim for a primarily damage dealing character, with support functionality strictly second.

Note that Conjure Animals has the same duration as Conjure Elemental: one hour. So if you are expecting trouble, you just cast it in advance, and then you don't have to burn the first round of combat casting Conjure Animals--you can fling your panda bears (or horses, or whatever) in the enemy's face and start blasting away with Eldritch Blast and using Cutting Words to ensure that enemies fail their Athletics checks and handing out Bardic Inspiration and whatnot. Commanding your creatures doesn't burn an action.


This is why warlock 2 is such a good start for so many of these, not because it is better than a fighter at damage, but because it lets you be pretty solid at something AND select whatever classes you want to represent the other things you are good at (this is why I suggested a couple or rogue for guerrilla blaster).

This, yes. Especially if your main class is something that was going to be pumping Charisma anyway.

Warlock damage isn't the best but it is "good enough".