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de-trick
2007-06-27, 10:06 PM
i heard before from my dm that dwarfs are not physically able to swim. He said something like dwarfs do not have enough body fat to have a natural buoyancy and so they sink

SurlySeraph
2007-06-27, 10:10 PM
Well, there's nothing that bans dwarves from putting points in swim, so in D&D terms he's wrong. I'm pretty sure he's wrong in RL terms too, but I wouldn't swear to it.

Dhavaer
2007-06-27, 10:13 PM
IIRC, someone did calculate that dwarves are denser than water and therefore can't swim. That said, physics in D&D is different from real physics.

Krimm_Blackleaf
2007-06-27, 10:27 PM
Well obviously, dwarves can't swim, elves can't wield greatswords, gnomes are nothing but bards and illusionists, all halflings are jolly, the flash REALLY IS faster than superman and Snape didn't actually kill Dumbledore.


...:smalltongue:

DaMullet
2007-06-27, 10:37 PM
You ought to put those in Spoiler tags, Krimm...

SadisticFishing
2007-06-27, 10:53 PM
WHAT!? SNAPE KILLS DUMBLEDORE!?

Errr. Yeah, absolutely no rule backup on that, and always remember - physics is a house rule.

Dervag
2007-06-27, 10:55 PM
Actually, a person denser than water can swim, just not well and not very far or fast unless they're incredibly strong. The motion of swimming would work just as well for an iron golem as for a human being; the difference is that the forward progress the golem makes by swimming is much slower than the downward progress that the golem makes by sinking like a huge metal statue.

If dwarves aren't much denser than water, then they could swim up faster than they would sink down, with difficulty, for short periods.

Alternatively, dwarves could wear flotation devices such as water wings, or eat fattening food.

Has anyone here seen the calculation? I imagine it's based on calculating their weight and volume to find their density. If so, the calculations may be based on flawed assumptions about the volume of a dwarf. They may be shorter than humans, but they're supposed to be broader too.

SpiderBrigade
2007-06-27, 10:56 PM
Well, of course your stereotypical dwarf will be wearing at least fullplate, if not that extra-dwarfy Mountain Plate, so he definitely should'n't try swimming. :smallbiggrin:

Lucky
2007-06-27, 10:56 PM
http://www.errantstory.com/comics/es20060807.jpg

Emperor Tippy
2007-06-27, 11:03 PM
I don't like catgirls. I hoep he zaps a few more for me. :smallwink:

Setra
2007-06-27, 11:23 PM
WHAT!? SNAPE KILLS DUMBLEDORE!?
I really hope you're kidding.

On the catgirl note, nope, I protect them with a spell I came up with, it deflects the Physics Death rays onto monkeys.

On topic, I could see a Dwarf having trouble swimming, maybe they should have like a -2 to swim checks.

13_CBS
2007-06-27, 11:26 PM
Well, as long as a Dwarf keeps his lungs full I'd imagine he could swim, yes?

Also, although we're mostly made of water, aren't humans technically denser than water? While lacking air in lungs, of course (hence why you sink when you exhale in water). Also, are we talking about fresh water or salty water? Salty water makes you more buoyant.

Tallis
2007-06-27, 11:27 PM
I've heard of houserules before that say dwarves can't swim, but there's nothing in the RAW that says it.

Setra
2007-06-27, 11:32 PM
I'd say it's less about buoyancy, and more about short arms and legs, with a large body.

Dhavaer
2007-06-27, 11:52 PM
Also, although we're mostly made of water, aren't humans technically denser than water? While lacking air in lungs, of course (hence why you sink when you exhale in water). Also, are we talking about fresh water or salty water? Salty water makes you more buoyant.

No, humans are less dense than water. Humans have a density of something like 0.93 (water is 1).

Jack Mann
2007-06-27, 11:58 PM
The density of the human body is almost exactly 1. You can raise your density by releasing your breath, or raise it by taking a deep breath.

Fat people have a lower average density, so they are more inclined to float. Skinny or muscular people have a higher average density, so they tend to sink.

And now you know!

TheDarkOne
2007-06-28, 12:03 AM
The most it would be in D&D, if Dwarfs had trouble swimming, is a penalty to the swim skill, much like an armor check penalty. While it may or may not be physically possible for a dwarf to swim, it's definately physically impossible for a person wearing full plate to swim, and yet in D&D, with enough ranks in swim and a descent strength, it's totally possible.

Setra
2007-06-28, 12:09 AM
The most it would be in D&D, if Dwarfs had trouble swimming, is a penalty to the swim skill, much like an armor check penalty. While it may or may not be physically possible for a dwarf to swim, it's definately physically impossible for a person wearing full plate to swim, and yet in D&D, with enough ranks in swim and a descent strength, it's totally possible.
I'd say it's possible enough to swim in full plate if you're strong enough.

Jack Mann
2007-06-28, 12:12 AM
Actually, you can swim in good plate armor. You'd get tired very quickly, but it's hardly impossible.

brian c
2007-06-28, 12:21 AM
The density of the human body is almost exactly 1. You can raise your density by releasing your breath, or raise it by taking a deep breath.

Fat people have a lower average density, so they are more inclined to float. Skinny or muscular people have a higher average density, so they tend to sink.

And now you know!

There's just one very important thing no one has mentioned... have you ever seen a world-class swimmer? Or even just a very good swimmer at your high school, or local YMCA or wherever? Swimmers are very muscular. The best swimmers in the world are on average much denser than water (well, not a whole lot but enough so that it matters). If Michael Phelps got into the pool tried to lay on his back, he'd sink. However, with those muscles, he's the fastest swimmer in the world. Granted, muscle mass alone doesn't make you a good swimmer, but whether or not someone floats is not a good indicator of their ability to swim.

TigerHunter
2007-06-28, 12:22 AM
Actually, you can swim in good plate armor. You'd get tired very quickly, but it's hardly impossible.

Historically, people were able to run full-speed, swim, duck, and jump while decked out in full plate-mail armour. In fact, a well-made suit of plate weighed a mere forty pounds, while a modern-day soldier carries into combat over two hundred pounds of equipment. :)
extra text...

StupidFatHobbit
2007-06-28, 12:27 AM
Alternatively, dwarves could wear flotation devices such as water wings

Thank you for the best mental image of my week so far.

Solo
2007-06-28, 12:37 AM
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/environmentalRacialVariants.htm

Need I say more?

Jack Mann
2007-06-28, 12:39 AM
Tiger: Yes, and? Or were you just pointing out that I was right?

Maelstrom
2007-06-28, 01:18 AM
...a modern-day soldier carries into combat over two hundred pounds of equipment. :)




Sorry, but that is a huge load of Kay rap...we carry a combat load of around 90 pounds max...

Jack Mann
2007-06-28, 02:48 AM
True. Carrying 200 lbs of equipment would make it all but impossible to maneuver effectively in a firefight.

Still, the point stands that the 40-50 lbs of a suit of plate isn't all that much, especially when it's distributed over the body. Indeed, if you swim while in plate armor, what's really going to tire you (assuming you're in good shape, of course) is the drag rather than the weight.

Rukido
2007-06-28, 04:14 AM
Real dwarfs swim by holding their breath, sinking to the bottom, then walking to where they need to go.

brian c
2007-06-28, 10:53 AM
Real dwarfs swim by holding their breath, sinking to the bottom, then walking to where they need to go.

Heh... that's exactly what we were going to make the dwarf do in the last campaign I played in. He wore full plate and a tower shield, so when we had to go to the bottom of a lake our plan was to give him a water-breathing potion. Everyone else got waterbreathing and swimming, but he just had to walk.

Jayabalard
2007-06-28, 12:56 PM
Well, as long as a Dwarf keeps his lungs full I'd imagine he could swim, yes?

Also, although we're mostly made of water, aren't humans technically denser than water? While lacking air in lungs, of course (hence why you sink when you exhale in water). Also, are we talking about fresh water or salty water? Salty water makes you more buoyant.Humans without air in their lungs are not necessarily denser than water.... depending on you body fat you may be less dense than water.

There are certainly game systems where dwarves are explicitly unable to swim due to body density, and while D&D isn't one of them, it's not an unreasonable house rule.

Inigo_Carmine
2007-06-28, 01:29 PM
Information From Wikipedia
Water: 0.998 g/cm³, liquid
Ethanol: 0.789 g/cm³, liquid

I don't know about you, but my dwarves are less dense than water ;)

NEO|Phyte
2007-06-28, 01:47 PM
This may just be my experiences from Dwarf Fortress, but I'd say that while dwarves ARE able to swim, they are generally too dumb to manage to find a way out of the water, and therefore manage to drown in a 5' wide channel.

Roderick_BR
2007-06-28, 02:12 PM
I just assume that, with shorter arms and legs, they have smaller swimming speed than humans. Other than that, they can put skill points in swimming like any other character.

Matthew
2007-06-30, 09:07 AM
My Dwarves can definitely swim (but they tend to be not that short, either). I seem to remember something about Dwarves having a mild fear of water, though. I think it was Flint in Dragonlance who started it, but the Dwarves in The Hobbit might have had a mild fear of the water, I don't recall off hand.

Dervag
2007-06-30, 09:43 AM
Well, of course your stereotypical dwarf will be wearing at least fullplate, if not that extra-dwarfy Mountain Plate, so he definitely should'n't try swimming. :smallbiggrin:Yes, but in some situations, he'd have to. I mean, real dwarven armor should come with emergency flotation devices, right?

"In case of a water landing, the horns on your helmet will balloon outwards, and may be used as a flotation device."


The density of the human body is almost exactly 1. You can raise your density by releasing your breath, or raise it by taking a deep breath.

Fat people have a lower average density, so they are more inclined to float. Skinny or muscular people have a higher average density, so they tend to sink.

And now you know!Right, because the human body is basically a big bag of salty fluid with some mineral reinforcing rods to hold it together.

And knowing is half the battle!


There's just one very important thing no one has mentioned... have you ever seen a world-class swimmer? Or even just a very good swimmer at your high school, or local YMCA or wherever? Swimmers are very muscular. The best swimmers in the world are on average much denser than water (well, not a whole lot but enough so that it matters). If Michael Phelps got into the pool tried to lay on his back, he'd sink. However, with those muscles, he's the fastest swimmer in the world. Granted, muscle mass alone doesn't make you a good swimmer, but whether or not someone floats is not a good indicator of their ability to swim.However, being denser than water might be a problem for long-distance swimming, unless I am much mistaken. Fast swimming and long-distance swimming might require different musculatures, just as sprinting and long-distance running do.

And the D&D Swim skill, which encompasses both kinds of swimming, has to deal with things that adversely affect both.


Real dwarfs swim by holding their breath, sinking to the bottom, then walking to where they need to go.No, real dwarves swim by inventing the air compressor and diving suit, setting up their breathing apparatus on a friendly ship, hooking up the air hose, and then sinking to the bottom and walking where they need to go.

Amphimir Míriel
2007-06-30, 12:24 PM
"In case of a water landing, the horns on your helmet will balloon outwards, and may be used as a flotation device."


Wouldnt that force the dwarf below the water? If you want to add flotation devices, add them to their beard-tucking belts



No, real dwarves swim by inventing the air compressor and diving suit, setting up their breathing apparatus on a friendly ship, hooking up the air hose, and then sinking to the bottom and walking where they need to go.

Yeah, but Gnomes beat them to the shore by inventing the one-man submarine, complete with compressed-air launched harpoons and greek-fire torpedoes



And knowing is half the battle!


Go Joe!

...

[unconfortable silence, complete with sounds of crickets]

what!?

goat
2007-06-30, 12:38 PM
And knowing is half the battle!

The other half is kicking people's heads in.