Tier 6 in higher tiers

[Immabozo]

Tier zero is "can break the game world over the character's knee and tell the DM to cry in a corner", right? So, as I am sure many of you will remember, the turning a pig into a black hole thread, as a commoner. Would that classify as tier 0? Or would that be tier 4, because tier 4 is "Capable of doing one thing quite well, but often useless when encounters require other areas of expertise" since they can do the one thing really well, be a black hole and thus destroy everything, but useless when the encounter requires something else?

But it is a black hole. Black hole trumps encounter, whatever it is. So the one thing is done so over the top that it answers everything else! So maybe tier 1 or 2? I mean, what isn't answered by the gentle caress of a black hole in it's face?

[frogglesmash]

1. Iirc the pig based black hole trick requires mixing poorly written game rules with real world physics. This is neither RAW, nor a good idea if you want to avoid having DMGs thrown at you.

2. The tiers are based on a class' potential versatility at any given level of optimization. One exploit that can completely break the game is not enough to judge a class' tier, after all, thanks to poor editing even Truenamers have access to a number of game breaking exploits.

[Psyren]

Even if you could create black holes at will in game mechanics terms rather than selective application of real world physics, that would at best get you to T2. You'd be breaking the game in one very specific way. That way happens to solve a lot of encounters, but not all of them.


Black hole trumps encounter, whatever it is.

This is where you're wrong; yes, a black hole trumps any encounter whose goal is destruction of some opposing entity or force (provided said opposition is corporeal and located on this plane), but there are plenty of encounters that don't meet that criteria. (Granted, Vaarsuvius' Theorem (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0696.html) does apply here too, but it's still imperfect.)

[Immabozo]

Even if you could create black holes at will in game mechanics terms rather than selective application of real world physics, that would at best get you to T2. You'd be breaking the game in one very specific way. That way happens to solve a lot of encounters, but not all of them.



This is where you're wrong; yes, a black hole trumps any encounter whose goal is destruction of some opposing entity or force (provided said opposition is corporeal and located on this plane), but there are plenty of encounters that don't meet that criteria. (Granted, Vaarsuvius' Theorem (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0696.html) does apply here too, but it's still imperfect.)

"As the size of an explosion gets bigger, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero" hahaha, I love it!!

[Bucky]

Tier zero is "can break the game world over the character's knee and tell the DM to cry in a corner", right?

That's tier 2. Tier 0 means breaking the game world at will as a full round action while also being immune to rules.

[Immabozo]

That's tier 2. Tier 0 means breaking the game world at will as a full round action while also being immune to rules.

That does make a little more sense, haha

[Seppo87]

If the power of turning pigs into black holes is not exclusive to the commoner then no, it does not make the commoner any more higher in relative rank compared to other classes.
Commoner is not tier 2, 1, or 0.

Edit: however, commoners are a powerful dip if you want to abuse Chicken infested and/or Delicious somehow

[Immabozo]

If the power of turning pigs into black holes is not exclusive to the commoner then no, it does not make the commoner any more higher in relative rank compared to other classes.
Commoner is not tier 2, 1, or 0.

Edit: however, commoners are a powerful dip if you want to abuse Chicken infested and/or Delicious somehow

It is that abuse that gives you the ability to turn a pig into a black hole. Same page of "flaws" as chicken infested. Personally, I think it is more powerful that infinite chickens.

[ExLibrisMortis]

It is that abuse that gives you the ability to turn a pig into a black hole. Same page of "flaws" as chicken infested. Personally, I think it is more powerful that infinite chickens.
At the very least, infinite chickens would allow you to create a black hole of arbitrary mass (past a certain minimum) as a free action. I'm pretty sure pig-bond is, by some metric, much weaker than that.

[Divide by Zero]

The thing is, the tiers are meant to model typical use/practical optimization. This doesn't make a commoner Tier 0 any more than being able to reliably summon Pazuzu makes a paladin Tier 0.

[Immabozo]

At the very least, infinite chickens would allow you to create a black hole of arbitrary mass (past a certain minimum) as a free action. I'm pretty sure pig-bond is, by some metric, much weaker than that.

How? Chickens do not spontaneously collapse into black holes. Chicken infested will never create a black hole, while the pig bonded commoner, does, or I should say, can


The thing is, the tiers are meant to model typical use/practical optimization. This doesn't make a commoner Tier 0 any more than being able to reliably summon Pazuzu makes a paladin Tier 0.

I'm pretty sure using a commoner to create a black hole falls squarely into TO, or at the very least, so far above PO that it will never see use at a table.

But semantics aside, you're right.

[khadgar567]

Tier 0 the oly thing i know that tier is artificer who can cast spells instead of infusions to tough luck mate

[Godskook]

Bards get basically automatic entry into Sublime Chord, and Sublime Chords are tier 2. Bards are STILL not a tier 2 class. To actually qualify for a tier, you need more than a few rare class-exclusive options that're all blatantly TO in nature. Wizards are tier 1 at level 1 using vanilla core options. Druids are sitll tier 1 if you remove wildshape AND their animal companion as class features. Tiers are an acknolewegement of SYSTEMIC power of a class, not of easily banned flukes. A few hyper-reasonable exceptions are put on the tier list, but they're not a standard,

[ExLibrisMortis]

How? Chickens do not spontaneously collapse into black holes. Chicken infested will never create a black hole, while the pig bonded commoner, does, or I should say, can.
Neither do pigs, normally, but anything of sufficient density will collapse into a black hole if you have enough of it (even hydrogen gas, which has a very low density). Read this (https://what-if.xkcd.com/99/). The same principle works for chickens.

Having infinite chickens is always going to break something.

[Eldan]

One could argue that D&D has no rules for things collapsing into black oles.

[Immabozo]

Neither do pigs, normally, but anything of sufficient density will collapse into a black hole if you have enough of it (even hydrogen gas, which has a very low density). Read this (https://what-if.xkcd.com/99/). The same principle works for chickens.

Having infinite chickens is always going to break something.


One could argue that D&D has no rules for things collapsing into black oles.

Obviously, neither of you have read the thread I am referencing (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?342604-Can-you-swing-a-pig-weighing-your-max-load).

Having a lot of something does not collapse it into a black hole, as Ex said, anything of sufficient density, a density that a chicken, and for that matter, a pig, are far from, no matter how many you have.


Consider: We have a pig, which increases indefinitely in weight. We also have a hapless peasant doomed to carry that pig. The peasant can do nothing to change the weight category of the pig, because as soon as he bulks up, so does the pig. Let us assume that this commoner is infected with Festering Anger and has also managed to become immune to the Constitution damage. So he has NI strength.


Is it just me, or does this give us a lovely method of creating black holes?


Since we have no evidence that the pig increases in size, it is reasonable to assume that it increases in density only, and while that increases its gravity, it also increases its structural strength.

[ZeroiaSD]

Hm, I wonder how a Mythic Commoner would compare in a game...

[Kazyan]

Having a lot of something does not collapse it into a black hole, as Ex said, anything of sufficient density, a density that a chicken, and for that matter, a pig, are far from, no matter how many you have.

The relationship between the volume of a black hole and its mass are nonlinear; as the black hole's size increases, the effective density of the region enclosed by its event horizon tends to zero. Supermassive black holes are actually about as heavy as an equal volume of water (read: chickens).

[Immabozo]

The relationship between the volume of a black hole and its mass are nonlinear; as the black hole's size increases, the effective density of the region enclosed by its event horizon tends to zero. Supermassive black holes are actually about as heavy as an equal volume of water (read: chickens).

But getting them to collapse into the black hole in the first place is going to take something significant. Also, we dont know that for a fact, if I am not mistaken, we haven't ever been capable of measuring what's in them, hell, I am fairly confident that science doesn't exactly know WHAT is in them!

I could be mistaken, I am not an astrophysicist, but I am fairly confident that our knowledge of black holes is severely limited.

But still, water doesn't spontaneously collapse into black holes. Not eve at the insane pressures at the deepest parts of the ocean!

[Battleship789]

The relationship between the volume of a black hole and its mass are nonlinear; as the black hole's size increases, the effective density of the region enclosed by its event horizon tends to zero. Supermassive black holes are actually about as heavy as an equal volume of water (read: chickens).Is it weird that after reading this I immediately did the math to find out how many chickens you would need to make a black hole?

Assuming your average chicken is about 1 kg and a chicken's density is similar to water (it's close enough), you would need to collect about 2.71*10^38 chickens.

[Peat]

That's tier 2. Tier 0 means breaking the game world at will as a full round action while also being immune to rules.

So Tier 0 is basically the GM's partner giving them the look that says "I win or no sex for a week"?

[DeAnno]

But getting them to collapse into the black hole in the first place is going to take something significant. Also, we dont know that for a fact, if I am not mistaken, we haven't ever been capable of measuring what's in them, hell, I am fairly confident that science doesn't exactly know WHAT is in them!

I could be mistaken, I am not an astrophysicist, but I am fairly confident that our knowledge of black holes is severely limited.

But still, water doesn't spontaneously collapse into black holes. Not eve at the insane pressures at the deepest parts of the ocean!

I'm an astrophysicist. If you generate sufficient free action chickens you will get a black hole eventually. The only requirement of having a Black Hole is that R*c^2/(2G) < M. Once you have sufficient mass within some radius, you simply have a Black Hole. It doesn't have to do anything or pass any checks, it basically just happens.

Due to the nature of the equation with very large amounts of mass you could easily have a Black Hole at normal chicken density, but this black hole would require very many solar masses of chickens to achieve. By the time you had even close to that many chickens (possibly no time at all, if you create them with free actions), there would be enough chickens to cover the earth and that would obviously present other non-relativistic problems.

Another possibility is that by creating a chicken with a free action and dropping in your 5 foot space as a free action again and again you could (in an instantaneously short amount of time) cram enough chickens into your space that a black hole would form. Since it takes no time to do all this, the chickens will have no time to leave the space under their own tremendous pressure because of the speed of light limit. This obviously presents some problems of its own, but if you could somehow convince your DM to let you do it you would only need about one Saturn Mass (https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=%283+feet+*+c^2+%2F+2G%29+%2F+%28mass+of+saturn %29) of chickens to form your black hole, which is much less than you would need if you allowed them to spread out.

Even with far far less chickens though the violent explosion from the intense pressure of them all crammed into one space would be sufficient to kill most things that might be bothering you and possibly to ignite nuclear fusion.

[Bucky]

So Tier 0 is basically the GM's partner giving them the look that says "I win or no sex for a week"?

Okay, the "immune to rules" was a slight exaggeration. But a proper Tier 0 certainly shouldn't need to worry about mundane things like damage, ability drain or instant death spells.

[Red Fel]

That's tier 2. Tier 0 means breaking the game world at will as a full round action while also being immune to rules.


Okay, the "immune to rules" was a slight exaggeration. But a proper Tier 0 certainly shouldn't need to worry about mundane things like damage, ability drain or instant death spells.

Yeah. Tier 6 means that it can't do anything (see Truenamer). Tiers 3-5 means that it can do something, or some things, to varying degrees of effectiveness. Tier 2 means that it can do anything, but not everything. Tier 1 means that it can do everything.

Tier 0 is Pun-Pun, the point at which the character can not only do everything, but succeed at everything, automatically, no rolls required. He makes all the checks, succeeds on all the saves, deals all the damage, knows all the spells, overcomes all the DCs. He can take 10 on killing Elder Evils.

This concept can do one thing. It can do a lot with that one thing, but it can only do one thing. That's the equivalent of giving a Commoner the Mark of Storms and using various mechanics to get it up to a CL 18. He can now make a three-hour tornado with a 1/3 mile radius. That's an awesome trick, it solves a lot of encounters, but it doesn't even rise to Tier 3. He can do one thing very well, if that one thing involves a tornado.

A character who turns a pig into a black hole - even assuming the DM allows it, which he doesn't have to, because physics =/= mechanics - is in the same vein. He can do one thing - create black holes - very well. But he can't fly, can't teleport, can't use mind control, can't cause peoples hearts and/or brains to explode, can't punch very hard, can't track by scent... There's plenty of stuff he simply can't do. Black holes solve a lot of problems, but not every problem.

Also, dead catgirls.

[Immabozo]

Yeah. Tier 6 means that it can't do anything (see Truenamer). Tiers 3-5 means that it can do something, or some things, to varying degrees of effectiveness. Tier 2 means that it can do anything, but not everything. Tier 1 means that it can do everything.

Tier 0 is Pun-Pun, the point at which the character can not only do everything, but succeed at everything, automatically, no rolls required. He makes all the checks, succeeds on all the saves, deals all the damage, knows all the spells, overcomes all the DCs. He can take 10 on killing Elder Evils.

This concept can do one thing. It can do a lot with that one thing, but it can only do one thing. That's the equivalent of giving a Commoner the Mark of Storms and using various mechanics to get it up to a CL 18. He can now make a three-hour tornado with a 1/3 mile radius. That's an awesome trick, it solves a lot of encounters, but it doesn't even rise to Tier 3. He can do one thing very well, if that one thing involves a tornado.

A character who turns a pig into a black hole - even assuming the DM allows it, which he doesn't have to, because physics =/= mechanics - is in the same vein. He can do one thing - create black holes - very well. But he can't fly, can't teleport, can't use mind control, can't cause peoples hearts and/or brains to explode, can't punch very hard, can't track by scent... There's plenty of stuff he simply can't do. Black holes solve a lot of problems, but not every problem.

Also, dead catgirls.

IIRC, Truenamer is specifically in a group of it's own. According to the tier list, IIRC, you are better off taking levels in commoner, than Truenamer.

I would argue that the black hole chickens and pigs are rules legal, since they don't bump into any rules, and the material plane is very earth like, the differences being the rules. Since it doesn't violate any rules, the "earth-like" physics take over.

I find it amusing how most of my D&D discussions devolve into how to turn barn yard animals into black holes

[Divide by Zero]

IIRC, Truenamer is specifically in a group of it's own. According to the tier list, IIRC, you are better off taking levels in commoner, than Truenamer.

I'm not sure how that could be the case, since the Truenamer doesn't have any harmful class features. I believe the Truenamer was given its own group because it's so dependent on optimization to use its abilities reliably (if you optimize to the point where you can essentially utter at-will, it's probably equivalent to about Tier 4).

[frogglesmash]

I'm not sure how that could be the case, since the Truenamer doesn't have any harmful class features. I believe the Truenamer was given its own group because it's so dependent on optimization to use its abilities reliably (if you optimize to the point where you can essentially utter at-will, it's probably equivalent to about Tier 4).

It was given it's own tier because most of it's abilities are poorly written rendering them either unusable, or hopelessly abusable, thus rendering it unplayable without a lot of DM adjudication.

[Troacctid]

It was given it's own tier because most of it's abilities are poorly written rendering them either unusable, or hopelessly abusable, thus rendering it unplayable without a lot of DM adjudication.

Which is, of course, not accurate—yet another reason why JaronK's tier list is wrong.

[Immabozo]

I'm not sure how that could be the case, since the Truenamer doesn't have any harmful class features. I believe the Truenamer was given its own group because it's so dependent on optimization to use its abilities reliably (if you optimize to the point where you can essentially utter at-will, it's probably equivalent to about Tier 4).


Tier 6: Not even capable of shining in their own area of expertise. DMs will need to work hard to make encounters that this sort of character can contribute in with their mechanical abilities. Will often feel worthless unless the character is seriously powergamed beyond belief, and even then won't be terribly impressive. Needs to fight enemies of lower than normal CR. Class is often completely unsynergized or with almost no abilities of merit. Avoid allowing PCs to play these characters.

Examples: CW Samurai (without Imperious Command available), Aristocrat, Warrior, Commoner

And then there's the Truenamer, which is just broken (as in, the class was improperly made and doesn't function appropriately). Highly optimized (to the point of being able to spam their abilities) a Truenamer would be around Tier 4, but with lower optimization it rapidly drops to Tier 6.

And then there is Truenamer. It is below the tier system, not even in a tier

[Willie the Duck]

I would argue that the black hole chickens and pigs are rules legal, since they don't bump into any rules, and the material plane is very earth like, the differences being the rules. Since it doesn't violate any rules, the "earth-like" physics take over.

That's a pretty broad definition of rules legal. Right up there with 'the rules don't say you don't get an initiative or turn just because you are dead' or something like that.


I find it amusing how most of my D&D discussions devolve into how to turn barn yard animals into black holes

??? :confused:
It didn't devolve there, that was the primary point of the Original Post.

[Red Fel]

I would argue that the black hole chickens and pigs are rules legal, since they don't bump into any rules, and the material plane is very earth like, the differences being the rules. Since it doesn't violate any rules, the "earth-like" physics take over.


That's a pretty broad definition of rules legal. Right up there with 'the rules don't say you don't get an initiative or turn just because you are dead' or something like that.

This.

Yes, in theory, a pig of sufficiently massive mass which remains the same size would become a gravitational singularity under real-world physics. But, like many magical effects in this game that frequently ignores physics, if a magical effect does not say that it does a thing, it does not do that thing. As Willie quacks, saying "the rules don't say it's not true" isn't actually a rules-based argument. It's a six year old trying to outsmart his babysitter.

You can argue that the black hole pig is rules legal. You can argue anything you want. It is, at best, rules-as-interpreted, not RAW. By RAW, you have a pig that gets infinitely heavier; it does nothing else. It does not become a black hole; it doesn't even generate additional gravity, because the rules do not say that it does.

Think of the catgirls.

[Immabozo]

That's a pretty broad definition of rules legal. Right up there with 'the rules don't say you don't get an initiative or turn just because you are dead' or something like that.

??? :confused:
It didn't devolve there, that was the primary point of the Original Post.

Rules legal = RAW

It is silly and stupid, but there you go. That is just the point of silly RAW discussions! And yes, it is up there with those examples.

You are right, it was, but other conversations I have had, have. I am just finding that fact amusing, nothing more.

[Immabozo]

Sorry for the double post


This.

Yes, in theory, a pig of sufficiently massive mass which remains the same size would become a gravitational singularity under real-world physics. But, like many magical effects in this game that frequently ignores physics, if a magical effect does not say that it does a thing, it does not do that thing. As Willie quacks, saying "the rules don't say it's not true" isn't actually a rules-based argument. It's a six year old trying to outsmart his babysitter.

You can argue that the black hole pig is rules legal. You can argue anything you want. It is, at best, rules-as-interpreted, not RAW. By RAW, you have a pig that gets infinitely heavier; it does nothing else. It does not become a black hole; it doesn't even generate additional gravity, because the rules do not say that it does.

Think of the catgirls.

what the heck is catgirls?

And you are right about magical effects, however, this is not a magical effect. This is not a spell. It just happens as part of a flaw. It can be argued that those physics CAN be connected to the D&D universe in two ways, one, there is a book that flat out says that something creates a black hole, the other because the material plane is earth like, and earth is in a galaxy that orbits a black hole.

So the physics CAN be connected to the D&D universe, the effects come from something that is not a spell, and there is nothing conflicting, saying it cant or doesn't happen.

[Willie the Duck]

Rules legal = RAW

It is silly and stupid, but there you go. That is just the point of silly RAW discussions! And yes, it is up there with those examples.

You are right, it was, but other conversations I have had, have. I am just finding that fact amusing, nothing more.

You're right, I'm unnecessarily harshing on a deliberately silly discussion. My bad. However, I still wouldn't call it RAW by a long stretch. There are no rules in the books regarding the introduction of real world physical laws like relativistic effects into gameplay. This is like trying to extrapolate (hey, RAE = Rules As Extrapolated. Problem solved!) Rockwell values to item hardness scores, it is possible, but neither supported nor unsupported by the ruleset.

That said, it's certainly fine to explore the possibility. RAW in and of itself is a fairly silly ideal to begin with. Let that freak flag fly.

[Immabozo]

You're right, I'm unnecessarily harshing on a deliberately silly discussion. My bad. However, I still wouldn't call it RAW by a long stretch. There are no rules in the books regarding the introduction of real world physical laws like relativistic effects into gameplay. This is like trying to extrapolate (hey, RAE = Rules As Extrapolated. Problem solved!) Rockwell values to item hardness scores, it is possible, but neither supported nor unsupported by the ruleset.

That said, it's certainly fine to explore the possibility. RAW in and of itself is a fairly silly ideal to begin with. Let that freak flag fly.

Raw is silly, and the line where it is drawn is difficult to define. What about death? Like previously pointed out, death, in and of itself, does not prevent taking actions, rolling initiative, movement, casting spells, gaaining experience, or taking class levels, or anything a living character could do.

Now someone who is dead is ALSO unconscious, which DOES prevent some of those things, which is absurd in and of itself!

But you can apply the same argument, who is to say that real world physics apply? RAW certainly doesn't say those things. What about elephants being better at jumping than cats? Or a badger on a hamster wheel and poked until it enrages, creating a perpetual motion machine (or something like that, it's been a while since I read it)? Or many other examples. Where do you draw the line of what real world physics and material plane things that aren't RAW, but aren't counter to RAW, is, and is not, applicable in game? So what is to say that a sufficiently dense mass, in D&D, wont collapse into a black hole?

[Willie the Duck]

I guess the only input I have on that is--once you get to the point where you say "I think A and who is to say that's not right" and I say, "well I think B [which contradicts A] and who is to say that's not right" and the rules are genuinely silent on the issue, calling either one RAW seems like unjustifiably implying support* for one's position where no such support exists.

This is all much more annoying when there's a loud, braying forum member patting themselves on the back for the 'rules exploit' they discovered and declaring it RAW and "you guys just don't get it" while everyone else is saying "we get it, we just disagree. the rules don't say that." It's relatively harmless here in a "if your DM were to actually allow infinite free actions in a round, rules that create mass in a defined space would have ____ consequence" discussion. OTOH, you did couch this in the context of 'does this ability move a tier 6 individual to tier 4?' so there is some implication that this ought to be considered part of the game, rather than a simple 'isn't this silly?' discussion.

I don't know. I'm rambling. I don't know where I stand. You've discovered an obscure ability that is insufficiently worded to exclude the possibility that it could hit infinities or near infinities, and all the insanity that that implies. Have fun with that.


*again, support from whom exactly? The publisher--who in general consider people discussing RAW to be a somewhere between missing the point and an actual annoyance. Like I said, silly)

[Jormengand]

I'm not sure how that could be the case, since the Truenamer doesn't have any harmful class features. I believe the Truenamer was given its own group because it's so dependent on optimization to use its abilities reliably (if you optimize to the point where you can essentially utter at-will, it's probably equivalent to about Tier 4).

Yes, this. Truenamer is, without enough optimisation to make any truespeak checks at all, tier 6. When they have a 50/50 shot at their first utterance each day and take non-horrible utterances, they're about tier 5. When they have enough optimisation that they can fire off several copies of each utterance before having to roll, they're tier 4 if they have okay utterances. With the best utterances, truespeak bonuses from about ten different sources, mortalbane and other optimisation hacks, they can sorta scratch on T3. The problem is, because of the really funky way that truenamers work, they scale a lot more with optimisation than almost any other class - at low optimisation or high optimisation, the sorcerers will still be better at killing people than fighters and still be better at finding things out than rogues, the clerics will still have ultimate divine power a prayer away, and the monks will still be unable to hit anything. However, for truenamers, optimisation is the difference between being a glorified aristocrat and "I rolled a 50 for my knowledge check; please tell me everything about this guy", between getting a +1 to AC and being able to pass practically any skill check you might actually want to roll, between resorting to hitting someone with your morningstar and medium base attack and delivering an utterance that deals 40d6*1.5 damage at level 7.


Which is, of course, not accurate—yet another reason why JaronK's tier list is wrong.

In fairness, it kinda is accurate. Reversed Hidden Truth is practically unusable because of its ludicrous duration, whereas ether reforged is utterly broken (although, it's high enough level that that's forgivable) and I'm still not quite sure who the non-reversed version of Spell Rebirth is meant to target.



In answer to the thread, though, there's a fairly easy way that you can get a commoner, a truenamer, or any other class up to tier 0: crack open the book of vile darkness, use the sacrifice rules, and get a wish. You may need to planar ally a creature who can cast Guidance of the Avatar first, but if you do this, make sure it's almost midnight, then you can sacrifice another creature with a +20 from GotA. Then you can get your wish, wish for a ring of three wishes, wish for more rings of three wishes, and do most of the stuff that pun-pun does, then wish for skull talismans of practically every spell in existence, for every protective item in existence, and then go and take over the world. That doesn't say anything about the relative merits of T6 classes so much as our relative abilities to dredge up fairly standard TO tricks and stick them together in an aesthetically-pleasing way.