Balancing Alternative Magical Weapon

[Madbox]

We all know the standard +X magic weapons. While no one agrees to where the balance lies in regards to how often they should get handed out, there's a hierarchy, that barring odd effects, a +1 shortsword is less valuable than a +2 shortsword.

This leads to my question. If I used a magic weapon in a campaign that, rather than a flat bonus to attacks and damage, instead boosted the relevant stats, where would that fall in this hierarchy?

For example, let's say I gave a group a rapier that gave +1 to the wielder's DEX mod. The combat effectiveness is the same as a standard +1 rapier, but the effect also impacts out-of-combat actions, so it is clearly superior to said +1 weapon.

Would this theoretical rapier be more along the lines of a +2 weapon in terms of balance, or between a +1 and a +2? I realize this is comparing apples to oranges, but to extend that analogy, I'm asking at what point you've had too much fruit altogether and are going to be sick.

Thanks for any input!

[TheFlyingCleric]

Taking the example of the +1 DEX modifier weapon (I'm thinking 'shortsword')
- Initiative rolls, +1
- +1 to DEX checks and saves
- if using light armor, +1 to AC!
- If wielding a finesse weapon on the off-hand, +1 to its attack rolls (damage too, if you have the fighting style)
- If the bonus is not just when wielding the weapon, +1 to ranged weapon attacks.

I consider all that worth more than an additional +1 to attack rolls and damage. At the very least, this weapon would need to require attunement (it gives a bonus better than one of the Ioun stones after all).

[hymer]

Would this theoretical rapier be more along the lines of a +2 weapon in terms of balance, or between a +1 and a +2? I realize this is comparing apples to oranges, but to extend that analogy, I'm asking at what point you've had too much fruit altogether and are going to be sick.

It would also depend somewhat on the character, and quite a bit on the campaign style. For instance, a caster would find this new weapon quite delightful, even if they never made an attack roll with it. They'd value it over a +2 weapon.
On the other hand, if the weapon belongs to a dex fighter already maxed on his Dex bonus to AC for medium armour, and the campaign is one battle after another, the weapon is only marginally better than basic +1 (+1 Initiative, Dex saves and Acrobatics is nothing to sneer at, but hardly comparable to another +1 damage and to hit; especially to hit).
Opposite to that is the kind of campaign where there are lots of sneaking about, but little actual combat, in which case this weapon is better than a +2 weapons.
A strength fighter would likely find good use for a +2 rapier, but much less use to a +1 dex mod rapier.

And then there's the question of when the bonus applies. When you hold the weapon? Or just when you possess it?

[Madbox]

And then there's the question of when the bonus applies. When you hold the weapon? Or just when you possess it?
I was thinking when on the owner's person, even if it's just in its sheath. Although this is starting to remind me of that book in Elder Scrolls about the guy who's better at everything while wearing heavy armor, including bedroom stuff with his wife.

I definitely see what you mean about it depending on the players and campaign type. Although I was using +1 DEX as an example. I meant +1 to a relevant ability score in general, like +1 STR greatswords, or +1 INT staves.

Thanks for your input!

@TheFlyingCleric I totally agree it's better. Just trying to figure out how much better, to decide what point it would be appropriate to bring it in.

[Steampunkette]

I agree that it is about equivalent to a +2 weapon.

Now if it gave a +1 Stat Bonus I would say it is closer to a +1 or 1.5.

[hymer]

Although I was using +1 DEX as an example. I meant +1 to a relevant ability score in general, like +1 STR greatswords, or +1 INT staves.

What I was trying to say was something about how a weapon with a bonus to hit and damage has the bonus where you're very likely to want it. If you want the weapon in the first place, you want it to have a bonus when attacking with it. The bonus to a specific ability score makes it more specific what type of character would use this, compared with other weapons. This need not be a bad thing. It could particularly help the DM in giving specific PCs a weapon that won't be as likely to be snapped up by someone else.

Edit: It would have an interesting effect on two-weapon fighting. You could have one of these in your off hand, and a regular +X weapon in your main hand. Two-weapon fighting may catch up to other styles with that higher bonus to hit on the main hand.
Or indeed, you could just have the weapon on you, and use a regular +X weapon. Though that would be kind of sad.

[SharkForce]

+1 stat bonus gets a lot scarier when you're talking about save effects.

that staff you were thinking of, for example, would increase the save DC of your spells, taking the max from 19 (+5 attribute and +6 proficiency bonus) to 20... which means if you have a penalty to a save or check (say, for example, the strength check to escape from a web spell or the intelligence save to resist a phantasmal force or the investigation check to determine that it is fake), you never succeed.

with no bonus or penalty, it's slightly less bad (you can still succeed), but you did still lose 1/2 of your chance to make the check or save. even if we give the creature a decent bonus (say, +3 from a lower but not terrible attribute), it still takes away 1/4 of their chance to make the check or save.

if you only have the single bonus and no other items that can stack with it, you probably won't see too much of a change in effectiveness on save effects (especially if you don't expect to ever see the levels where +6 proficiency bonus is a thing; the further you are towards the middle of die rolls, the less impact it will have, and +1 doesn't get you close unless your proficiency bonus + stat modifier is already 11). if you expect to find other items that do the same thing, or items with a larger bonus to your mod, it is likely to cause problems if used to maximum effect (even with strength or dexterity, you should still consider things like battlemaster maneuvers).

[Madbox]

@SharkForce That hadn't occurred to me, which I feel really dumb about now since I am currently playing a wizard who gets a lot of mileage out of Grease.

Maybe if I combined it with Steampunkette's idea of +1 to the stat, so that it gives a boost without getting too absurd (thanks for that, Steampunkette! )

@hymer Good idea with TWF. Maybe it should have to be held for the effect, to encourage that.

[Steampunkette]

My work, here, is done.

*dons her goggles with a dashing smile and grabs the dangling rope ladder from a passing airship*

Steampunkette, awaaaaaaaay!

[JackPhoenix]

+1 to the stat, OTOH, would be useless for a character without an odd score in that stat. Most character keeps their stats on even values, because that's when the increased modifier comes, and it's more effective during character creation.

[Madbox]

True, but there are quite a few feats that give +1 to a stat, in addition to other effects. With this item, someone could have one more feat while still basically having a 20 in their main stat.

[SharkForce]

@SharkForce That hadn't occurred to me, which I feel really dumb about now since I am currently playing a wizard who gets a lot of mileage out of Grease.

Maybe if I combined it with Steampunkette's idea of +1 to the stat, so that it gives a boost without getting too absurd (thanks for that, Steampunkette! )

@hymer Good idea with TWF. Maybe it should have to be held for the effect, to encourage that.

i wouldn't worry about that oversight too much. i mean, the people who professionally wrote D&D didn't bother to mention anything like that in their suggestions for creating good homebrew classes that i can recall, nor did they worry about it overly much when they made the magic items in the DMG (there's an ioun stone that gives a higher proficiency bonus, stat-boosting tomes, and at least 2 magic items that increase spell save DC in the DMG alone, not to mention the DC on a battlemaster with the belts of giant strength could achieve).

so if you didn't consider the implications, well, you're in good company. and, like i said, it won't get too out of hand so long as it's the only thing. each additional point of DC brings you ever closer to impossible checks, but the first increase only makes it truly impossible for creatures with a stat penalty facing someone who is at least level 17, has a maxed attribute, and a magic item to boost their save DC some way or another. a single point is not a huge deal, just don't give out anything it could stack with, because each additional point means that a monster's lowest save value needs to be 1 point higher before something becomes an automatic failed save.