The Politics of Skyrim

[Volcan]

So, just as a disclaimer, I haven't played any elder scrolls games besides Skyrim. I haven't even explored all of Skyrim, nor have a completed the main story line. However, I have gotten a character past level forty and killed Ulfric Stormcloak in the imperial quest line. I figured out pretty early on that I am against the Skyrim Civil war, and I am also against the war with the Aldmeri Dominion. I feel like if the Stormcloaks won the civil war, the Aldmeri Dominion would be angry, and they would invade Skyrim, since it would still be quite split and still recovering from a long civil war, the Dominion would easily win. So this lead to me being Pro imperial, because if they won the war, they would still have the treaty with the Dominion going and there would be no more bloodshed. I understand that there a lot of people who prefer the Stormcloaks, and besides the fact that they are cooler, I don't really understand why you would be in support of them. They are a rebellion, but I don't understand what their grievances are, the only one I've heard is the ban of the worship of Talos, which seems like a small price to pay for peace. Besides, it's not that strongly enforced, considering there are many monks of Talos walking free in many cities, and there is a temple of Talos in Markarth, an Imperial city. So really I just want to hear more arguments for the Stormcloaks, or information that I am wrong on or don't know about.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

I think we've had a few discussions along those lines in the Skyrim threads (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?416193-The-Elder-Scrolls-X-Thalmor-or-Less/) but the short answer is: A sizable number of the citizenry believe that the Empire has become the Aldmeri Dominion's puppet state following the results of the Great War. And they aren't entirely wrong about that. There's also a reasonable amount of Nord pride/racism along the lines of 'we don't NEED your stinky Empire we can got at it ourselves!' It helps that the Thalmor have been encouraging the civil war (discreetly, of course) so that the Empire will wear itself down so when the NEXT Great War comes around they can win outright instead of just managing a treaty that lets them dictate lots of terms.

Also, Talos is holding the Mundus together, and the Thalmor banned his worship to erase him from existence so they can destroy the world and become gods. Though I doubt most of the Stormcloaks know or care about that part.

[AmberVael]

Here's a very simple argument for you: the Imperials tried to take your head off for crossing a border... and because an officer was like "well yeah they're not on the list but I want this over with so I can take my Mandatory Imperium Breaktime, so kill them." I dunno about you but that didn't get on MY good side.

[Wraith]

Disclaimer: I too have not played any of the Elder Scrolls games besides Skyrim, and I am arguing from the position of supporting the general goals of the rebellion (ie, freedom of worship, freedom from Aldmari interference and intrusion) but I specifically dislike Ulfric Stormcloak and his personal attitude/politics.

Broadly, I agree with you volcan - freedom from religious persecution (and it is persecution! If you know where to look, you can find Aldmari troops arresting suspected Talos-worshippers - not even convicted ones - Inquisition-style, and shipping them off to hidden prisons where they can be tortured) is a fundamental right even before you take into account that Skyrim has, historically, considered itself only loosely a part of the Empire, and as such the Emperor had no right to give up Talos on their behalf....

....That opinion, however, has never been formally or legally contested, so it is just an opinion. Nords are Imperial citizens, regardless of how they might profess to neither like nor want it, and a lot of their arguments against it are short-sighted ("Talos is our God and we can do what we like!") or simply racist ("all elves are bad news!").

Ulfric embodies the worst of both of these traits, in my eyes. Demanding freedom from the Empire is a tool to allow him to rise to power regardless of whatever calamities might befall Skyrim shortly thereafter at the hands of an Aldmeri/Imperial invasion, and while there might be racial tensions across the region, he specifically is an active racist - his treatment of the Dunmar in Winterhold and even of non-human Player Characters is uncharacteristic of typically wary, abrasive but rarely directly hostile Nords.... Until he realises what a useful tool you can be, of course.

In summary: Ulfric is a manipulative bastard exploiting political fears to further his own advancement, even though his success means that all of Skyrim will likely be razed to the ground before Tamriel itself is dropped into the Abyss. As much of a sour taste it leaves in my mouth to further enable the Aldmeri machinations, they will still be a problem tomorrow and I prefer to deal with them from a position of strength - a unified Empire that has not just ground itself down in a protracted civil war. :smalltongue:


Here's a very simple argument for you: the Imperials tried to take your head off for crossing a border... and because an officer was like "well yeah they're not on the list but I want this over with so I can take my Mandatory Imperium Breaktime, so kill them." I dunno about you but that didn't get on MY good side.

I agree; as first impressions go, not the best. :smalltongue:

I, however, can overlook that indiscretion on the basis that a) they were broadly quite sorry and polite about it, whereas the Stormcloaks I meet generally act like my escape was a bad thing and can't wait to remind me that I'm not human/not one of them/am one of them but suck anyway/not a holding a sword/holding a sword/holding the wrong kind of sword/am also a huge jerk like them, that b) my character's unwritten backstory might well include numerous counts of murder, pillaging, violence and public intoxication if I want it to which makes my execution possibly a form of karmic retaliation, and c) I can get my own back by killing the Emperor and calling it even.
The Empire continues, I keep my head, they dude responsible is dragon chow and I'm now wearing her boss' fancy hat to bed every night. That counts for a lot, I feel. :smallwink:

[Winter_Wolf]

As was said, Skyrim politics been done to death. Still a fun topic. After some thought, I think there's just no scenario where either the Empire or Stormcloak Skyrim will fend off the Dominion. Maybe the Redguards will hold out, maybe once other men are gone the mer will deal with them permanently.

[Volcan]

I think we've had a few discussions along those lines in the Skyrim threads (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?416193-The-Elder-Scrolls-X-Thalmor-or-Less/) but the short answer is: A sizable number of the citizenry believe that the Empire has become the Aldmeri Dominion's puppet state following the results of the Great War. And they aren't entirely wrong about that. There's also a reasonable amount of Nord pride/racism along the lines of 'we don't NEED your stinky Empire we can got at it ourselves!' It helps that the Thalmor have been encouraging the civil war (discreetly, of course) so that the Empire will wear itself down so when the NEXT Great War comes around they can win outright instead of just managing a treaty that lets them dictate lots of terms.

Also, Talos is holding the Mundus together, and the Thalmor banned his worship to erase him from existence so they can destroy the world and become gods. Though I doubt most of the Stormcloaks know or care about that part.

Okay, the first paragraph was helpful, but why are they correct in saying that the Empire has become the Aldmeri dominion' puppet state? What was the rest of the treaty besides the ban of Talos worship?

The second paragraph confuses me slightly more, how do they plan on become Gods? who are the Mundus? Either way, if the rebellion is against the Aldmeri Dominion that strongly, I still feel like there is no way they could defeat the Aldmeri Dominion after the civil war.


Disclaimer: I too have not played any of the Elder Scrolls games besides Skyrim, and I am arguing from the position of supporting the general goals of the rebellion (ie, freedom of worship, freedom from Aldmari interference and intrusion) but I specifically dislike Ulfric Stormcloak and his personal attitude/politics.

Broadly, I agree with you volcan - freedom from religious persecution (and it is persecution! If you know where to look, you can find Aldmari troops arresting suspected Talos-worshippers - not even convicted ones - Inquisition-style, and shipping them off to hidden prisons where they can be tortured) is a fundamental right even before you take into account that Skyrim has, historically, considered itself only loosely a part of the Empire, and as such the Emperor had no right to give up Talos on their behalf....

....That opinion, however, has never been formally or legally contested, so it is just an opinion. Nords are Imperial citizens, regardless of how they might profess to neither like nor want it, and a lot of their arguments against it are short-sighted ("Talos is our God and we can do what we like!") or simply racist ("all elves are bad news!").

Ulfric embodies the worst of both of these traits, in my eyes. Demanding freedom from the Empire is a tool to allow him to rise to power regardless of whatever calamities might befall Skyrim shortly thereafter at the hands of an Aldmeri/Imperial invasion, and while there might be racial tensions across the region, he specifically is an active racist - his treatment of the Dunmar in Winterhold and even of non-human Player Characters is uncharacteristic of typically wary, abrasive but rarely directly hostile Nords.... Until he realises what a useful tool you can be, of course.

In summary: Ulfric is a manipulative bastard exploiting political fears to further his own advancement, even though his success means that all of Skyrim will likely be razed to the ground before Tamriel itself is dropped into the Abyss. As much of a sour taste it leaves in my mouth to further enable the Aldmeri machinations, they will still be a problem tomorrow and I prefer to deal with them from a position of strength - a unified Empire that has not just ground itself down in a protracted civil war.

Ok, I understand the racism against elves and the Nord's pride. I feel like these are still the only two reasons the Stormcloaks exist. I do not think Ulfric is manipulative, I think he is a symbol of Nord pride, and he believes that the empire is unneeded and the Nords can fend off the Aldmeri dominion themselves.


As was said, Skyrim politics been done to death. Still a fun topic. After some thought, I think there's just no scenario where either the Empire or Stormcloak Skyrim will fend off the Dominion. Maybe the Redguards will hold out, maybe once other men are gone the mer will deal with them permanently.

I feel like Skyrim might be able to fend them off if they didn't have the civil war, I think the empire without a rebellion could do it. However, I don't know how strong their military is in relation to the Dominion's

In conclusion, I still think the Stormcloaks are in the wrong and the one thing they are fighting for is Nord pride, and not for a good political position*. However, I did not really think about the fact that the Thalmor are trying to take over the world, and don't want peace with the Empire. So, I think that the best thing for Skyrim to do is not have a civil war, and to build a strong military for as long as they have the treaty going, so when the Dominion breaks it, they can win. If this happened, the Stormcloaks would get their Nord pride, worship of Talos, and no more bloody Elves.

*I can't say this with complete certainty until I know what else was on the treaty.

[Grim Portent]

The second paragraph confuses me slightly more, how do they plan on become Gods? who are the Mundus? Either way, if the rebellion is against the Aldmeri Dominion that strongly, I still feel like there is no way they could defeat the Aldmeri Dominion after the civil war.

The various elven races in the Elder Scrolls believe they are spirits of the same class as the gods who were trapped in mortal form by the creation of the world, which is called Mundus. According to the Altmer the way to become gods again would be to destroy the world, the other elven races have different ideas on how to become gods again, but share the same fundamental belief system.

The Altmer religion can be summed up as 'We are/were gods, therefore we are better than everyone else including the elves who have forsaken their true nature.' The idea of a human being a god (Talos) disgusts many of them intensely, so they reject it. Since Talos, like all the gods, is important in maintaining the world of Mundus rejecting him en masse could threaten the world.



EDIT: Part of the treaty involved the Empire ceding rulership of Hammerfell over to the Dominion, despite the Redguard natives still being perfectly willing to keep fighting the Altmer, allowing the Thalmor agents to travel throughout the Empire as an Inquisition and arrest people without trial, and I think it also legitimised their shadow war against the Blades.

[Crow]

Squads of Aldmeri inquisitors or whatever they are, are being allowed to roam freely through Skyrim. They can arrest, torture, and kill the citizens of Skyrim with no consequences whatsoever. When the Empire sits back and allows this to happen, it has forfeited its sovereignty at best, and at worst completely broken the social contract between itself and its citizens. Probably both. When the centralised government fails; or in this case, is unwilling, to protect the rights of its citizens, it is the responsibility of local governments and officials (in this case, the Jarls) to take the steps to do so themselves. It is not racist to want to live as a separate people and govern yourselves, when the people who have been governing you are unwilling or unable to fulfill the basic fundamentals of moral governance.

Talos is real, and actually is a god. Yet the Aldmeri can kill someone for believing this; in Imperial territory. Imagine if death squads roamed your neighborhood abducting people because they believed the sky was blue. You would support a government that would allow this to happen?

Ulfric Stormcloak is a bastard, and has his own baggage, but I don't get the feeling from the stormcloaks in-game that they are doing what they're doing for Ulfric. They're doing it for the guy next to them, for their families, and for their way of life.

Besides, it doesn't seem like the Stormcloaks winning results in them out and out leaving the empire; but in greater autonomy and local control in governance. The advantage to the Thalmor wasn't in the Stormcloaks winning; but in neither side being able to win, and continuing to grind the other down.

[Volcan]

Squads of Aldmeri inquisitors or whatever they are, are being allowed to roam freely through Skyrim. They can arrest, torture, and kill the citizens of Skyrim with no consequences whatsoever. When the Empire sits back and allows this to happen, it has forfeited its sovereignty at best, and at worst completely broken the social contract between itself and its citizens. Probably both. When the centralised government fails; or in this case, is unwilling, to protect the rights of its citizens, it is the responsibility of local governments and officials (in this case, the Jarls) to take the steps to do so themselves. It is not racist to want to live as a separate people and govern yourselves, when the people who have been governing you are unwilling or unable to fulfill the basic fundamentals of moral governance.

Talos is real, and actually is a god. Yet the Aldmeri can kill someone for believing this; in Imperial territory. Imagine if death squads roamed your neighborhood abducting people because they believed the sky was blue. You would support a government that would allow this to happen?

Ulfric Stormcloak is a bastard, and has his own baggage, but I don't get the feeling from the stormcloaks in-game that they are doing what they're doing for Ulfric. They're doing it for the guy next to them, for their families, and for their way of life.

Ok, the whole inquisition thing has changed all of my views on this war. Even so, fighting the civil war will gain them no freedom from the Aldmeri Dominion, as they will simply get crushed as soon as they finish the war. I will never be able to understand what it is truly like to have no freedom of worship, (especially when its literally a real thing that you are worshiping) so I can't really say what the best thing to do would be. I no longer think the Stormcloaks are in the wrong, however, I do think that if every simple Nord was politically informed and intelligent, the best thing to do would be to suck up their Nord pride and pretend to hate Talos, knowing that in the long run it will be better for Nords and Talos, if they didn't have this war.

Also, the treaty may be very oppressive, but I honestly think the Empire has Skyrim's best interests in mind. I did the Dark Brotherhood quest line and the Emperor seemed like a pretty swell guy.

[Crow]

Ok, the whole inquisition thing has changed all of my views on this war. Even so, fighting the civil war will gain them no freedom from the Aldmeri Dominion, as they will simply get crushed as soon as they finish the war. I will never be able to understand what it is truly like to have no freedom of worship, (especially when its literally a real thing that you are worshiping) so I can't really say what the best thing to do would be. I no longer think the Stormcloaks are in the wrong, however, I do think that if every simple Nord was politically informed and intelligent, the best thing to do would be to suck up their Nord pride and pretend to hate Talos, knowing that in the long run it will be better for Nords and Talos, if they didn't have this war.

Also, the treaty may be very oppressive, but I honestly think the Empire has Skyrim's best interests in mind. I did the Dark Brotherhood quest line and the Emperor seemed like a pretty swell guy.

I'm not even sure the Stormcloaks winning actually results in them leaving the Empire. As I edited in to my previous post (while you were posting, I was a bit late), a Stormcloak victory seems to result in more local autonomy and governance; but I'm not sure that Skyrim is actually an official separate entity. Maybe that is just because it is an open world game and they can't really model the Empire getting completely kicked out of Skyrim, but I mean, they still had Jarls and a High King while they were part of the Empire for a long time.

If I remember correctly, the advantage to the Thalmor wasn't that the Stormcloaks win, but that neither side be able to win, so that both sides would continue to be ground down in the fighting.

[Haruki-kun]

Here's a very simple argument for you: the Imperials tried to take your head off for crossing a border... and because an officer was like "well yeah they're not on the list but I want this over with so I can take my Mandatory Imperium Breaktime, so kill them." I dunno about you but that didn't get on MY good side.

This was always my argument. From a Role-playing perspective I just can't create any kind of character that would join the Imperial Legion after they tried to have me executed for no reason at all.

[druid91]

Ok, the whole inquisition thing has changed all of my views on this war. Even so, fighting the civil war will gain them no freedom from the Aldmeri Dominion, as they will simply get crushed as soon as they finish the war. I will never be able to understand what it is truly like to have no freedom of worship, (especially when its literally a real thing that you are worshiping) so I can't really say what the best thing to do would be. I no longer think the Stormcloaks are in the wrong, however, I do think that if every simple Nord was politically informed and intelligent, the best thing to do would be to suck up their Nord pride and pretend to hate Talos, knowing that in the long run it will be better for Nords and Talos, if they didn't have this war.

Also, the treaty may be very oppressive, but I honestly think the Empire has Skyrim's best interests in mind. I did the Dark Brotherhood quest line and the Emperor seemed like a pretty swell guy.

The Issue with that is that the Aldmeri Dominion took massive casualties, and even then was mostly making up for lack of numbers with mobility to begin with.

Not to mention that whatever side you choose essentially has a superweapon.

[Volcan]

I'm not even sure the Stormcloaks winning actually results in them leaving the Empire. As I edited in to my previous post (while you were posting, I was a bit late), a Stormcloak victory seems to result in more local autonomy and governance; but I'm not sure that Skyrim is actually an official separate entity. Maybe that is just because it is an open world game and they can't really model the Empire getting completely kicked out of Skyrim, but I mean, they still had Jarls and a High King while they were part of the Empire for a long time.

If I remember correctly, the advantage to the Thalmor wasn't that the Stormcloaks win, but that neither side be able to win, so that both sides would continue to be ground down in the fighting.

I feel like if either side won, it would still be the aftermath of a civil war, and therefore still easy to invade.


The Issue with that is that the Aldmeri Dominion took massive casualties, and even then was mostly making up for lack of numbers with mobility to begin with.

Not to mention that whatever side you choose essentially has a superweapon.

I don't really understand what them taking casualties had to do with my post.

And the other statement goes down a path I do not like. I mean you could single handedly win a war against the Aldmeri Dominion and make the Stormcloaks and Empire both happy. I would rather have this discussion without that idea of it being a video game. Because technically, there is no reason to eat or live in a house, and making money is so easy that the culture would be insanely different.

[factotum]

It's worth noting that, before he became the leader of the Stormcloaks, Ulfric was quite happy to work with the Aldmeri Dominion to free Skyrim from Imperial rule--you find notes to that effect in the Aldmeri Embassy mission. He may have cut his ties with them once he felt he didn't need them anymore, but it still gives you some idea what sort of a man he is--an fanatic who would rather see Skyrim under Aldmeri rule than Imperial. If it came down to war between Empire and Aldmeri, I'm really not sure Ulfric would keep an independent Skyrim out of it, and he'd probably go in on the Aldmeri side!

[Zombimode]

This was always my argument. From a Role-playing perspective I just can't create any kind of character that would join the Imperial Legion after they tried to have me executed for no reason at all.

I get that this is a problem for some characters. But can you really not think of ANY character who can see past that?

Because this reason not to support the Empire is a rather egocentric and shortsighted one. Which fits egocentric and shortsighted characters. But the more rational and political minded characters will understand that the decision whether to support the Stormcloaks or the Empire is a not a personal matter and thus your personal reasons should not enter the deliberation.

[Crow]

Ah yes, support the government who decided it was best to kill (you) indiscriminately.

Choosing a side to support in a political dispute is always a personal matter when it all comes down to it. It is a matter of personal priorities. It is perfectly okay to oppose a government that is not acting in your best interests, or the interests of those you care about. To suggest somebody is egocentric or irrational to think otherwise is very short sighted. One could easily make the opposite argument! I could see a politically-minded character who is willing to overlook such an incident; but that doesn't mean he is any more rational or less egocentric than one who doesn't. It depends on the character.

I think Bethesda did a fantastic job modeling the entire conflict. That there is such great controversy and disagreement shows that Bethesda struck gold on this one.

[gooddragon1]

Here's a very simple argument for you: the Imperials tried to take your head off for crossing a border... and because an officer was like "well yeah they're not on the list but I want this over with so I can take my Mandatory Imperium Breaktime, so kill them." I dunno about you but that didn't get on MY good side.

You know, I didn't like that, and I certainly didn't like that the Empire was telling people what they could and couldn't worship. However, they were doing that second part under duress. Also, when Ulfric said the line "I must now separate the wheat from the chaff" I lost all respect for him. People are not chaff. The empire at least tries to protect it's citizens. Some of their soldiers get overzealous (and probably wanted to kill the dragonborn because they wanted to make sure they took out even potential Stormcloaks). I'm not enthused by how they go about business in quite a few situations (like the instance with the dragonborn), but given the choice between the two I prefer the empire at least trying to protect it's citizens... and my hypermodded character conducting a wholesale slaughter of the Thalmor at every opportunity (not saying that all high-elves are bad, but I've yet to meet a Thalmor I liked).

[Andre]

Here's a very simple argument for you: the Imperials tried to take your head off for crossing a border... and because an officer was like "well yeah they're not on the list but I want this over with so I can take my Mandatory Imperium Breaktime, so kill them." I dunno about you but that didn't get on MY good side.

Come on, don't tell me you're still worked up over THAT! It was an honest-to-goodness bureaucratic oversight, and it happened so many years ago besides that. Somewhere there's some unlucky fellow who received a form erroneously taxing him for half a million drakes due to a similar oversight, but you don't see him waving a stormcloak flag, do you?

I mean, if I were to make mortal enemies out of anyone who tries to chop my head off in a game... :smallwink:

[Spore]

IAlso, Talos is holding the Mundus together, and the Thalmor banned his worship to erase him from existence so they can destroy the world and become gods. Though I doubt most of the Stormcloaks know or care about that part.

Is there any source that goes deeper on that? I would love to read about this part of the lore - and why Mundus is needed to be held aloft from Oblivion in the first place. Is there a complete lore book for TES?


This was always my argument. From a Role-playing perspective I just can't create any kind of character that would join the Imperial Legion after they tried to have me executed for no reason at all.

I do not want to sound condescending but I cannot word this any different: Do you not understand why your crime is not mentioned explicitly? It is that you can insert your own backstory for your character. Also your crime was trying to sneak the border, accompanied by Ulfric Stormcloak. You might think that this would make your character a hardcore Stormcloak supporter but I can imagine several of my characters using the group around Ulfric to try and infiltrate Skyrim.

My out-of-work assassin might want to find the last clues of the Dark Brotherhood. My thief wants to use the chaos of the civil war and the weaker security in Skyrim to get rich quickly. My orc warrior wants to test his mettle in the war, but realizes the Stormcloaks are racist bastards.

[Grim Portent]

I do not want to sound condescending but I cannot word this any different: Do you not understand why your crime is not mentioned explicitly? It is that you can insert your own backstory for your character. Also your crime was trying to sneak the border, accompanied by Ulfric Stormcloak. You might think that this would make your character a hardcore Stormcloak supporter but I can imagine several of my characters using the group around Ulfric to try and infiltrate Skyrim.

My out-of-work assassin might want to find the last clues of the Dark Brotherhood. My thief wants to use the chaos of the civil war and the weaker security in Skyrim to get rich quickly. My orc warrior wants to test his mettle in the war, but realizes the Stormcloaks are racist bastards.

Actually you're not supposed to be trying to sneak in with Ulfric, you just happened to be in the area when he was arrested near the border, as was the horse thief. You were crossing the border without going through normal channels (though why there's such a thing as normal channels in a wilderness province is beyond me) but that alone is probably not an execution offence.

It's basically bad luck fate that you happened to be within a short distance of some Stormcloaks when the Imperials showed up.

[Spore]

-snip- but that alone is probably not an execution offence..

If you are short on personnel execution of potential spies is a valid "solution" if not a just one. I tend to agree that execution is overkill but you are found close to someone wanted for high treason.

[Eldan]

I always thought the logical endgame to the situation as presented in Skyrim would be the player character becoming Emperor. A large part of the legitimacy of the last line of Emperors has always been that they were dragonborn. Or descended from Dragonborn. That's why the Imperial coat of arms is a dragon. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the current Emperor isn't.

As for the deeper lore, it's very scattered in the games, and Skyrim places less focus on it than Morrowind or even Oblivion. It's in the books you find in bookstores, almost exclusively, now. You can also go digging around wikis a bit.

Here's a start. (http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Monomyth)

And this:
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Lorkhan
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Magnus_%28god%29

[Kareeah_Indaga]

I give the Imperials a little slack, for a number of reasons:

1.) Elenwen had showed up to the execution site. Tulius is not stupid; he had to know she was there to cause trouble. According to the wiki, her conversation with him was along the following lines:


"General Tullius, stop! By the authority of the Thalmor, I'm taking custody of these prisoners."
"Your Emperor will hear of this. By the terms of the White-Gold Concordat, I operate with full Imperial authority!"
"You're making a terrible mistake!"

This leads to two strong possibilities: either she's there to interfere with Ulfric's capture and the subsequent end of the war (which she was), or someone else there has something she wants...either information or possibly one of her spies. WORST case scenario, he's executing a few random travelers with no importance to the Dominion at all...in which case he's still saving them from the same fate at the Thalmor's hands, except slower and with thumbscrews.

2.) Above is assuming that General Tulius was responsible for the order to execute the Dragonborn in the first place, or at least aware of it and purposely not countermanding it. That may not actually be the case. As you may recall from the events of the tutorial, the only one we hear actually give any order to that effect is Miss Heavy Armor Officer. It's not out of the question that his officer was acting of her own accord, while her general was busy trying to deal with Elenwen showing up unexpectedly.

And you know what? Isn't it a little suspicious that Elenwen shows up at all? Tulius doesn't like her and has no reason to tell her where he is or that his forces captured Ulfric--she's officially an ambassador, not a Battlereeve or similar. And isn't it also suspicious that that Miss Heavy Armor starts the executions--not with the guy in charge of the rebellion who they really need dead, but with a couple of nobodies no one cares about? I'm thinking 'she's a Thalmor spy trying to buy time for Elenwen', am I completely off-base here?

3.) Finally, even assuming none of the above applies: what's the first thing the Legion does when Alduin finally shows up? They defend the helpless townsfolk. Against a monster the size of a barn, who is completely immune to their arrows, who is making fire rain from the sky.

So, tl:dr - General Tulius and his Legions are caught between a rock and a hard place. They have my annoyance for the attempted execution, but as the real blame lies with the Dominion I'd much rather be angry with them.


It's worth noting that, before he became the leader of the Stormcloaks, Ulfric was quite happy to work with the Aldmeri Dominion to free Skyrim from Imperial rule--you find notes to that effect in the Aldmeri Embassy mission. He may have cut his ties with them once he felt he didn't need them anymore, but it still gives you some idea what sort of a man he is--an fanatic who would rather see Skyrim under Aldmeri rule than Imperial. If it came down to war between Empire and Aldmeri, I'm really not sure Ulfric would keep an independent Skyrim out of it, and he'd probably go in on the Aldmeri side!

That's not quite true; the notes in question tell us that Ulfric was tortured and interrogated by the Dominion. Elenwen needles him about it during Season Unending too. They ARE manipulating him, he is arguably furthering their agenda by continuing the war...but he's not doing it happily.


Is there any source that goes deeper on that? I would love to read about this part of the lore - and why Mundus is needed to be held aloft from Oblivion in the first place. Is there a complete lore book for TES?

It's a Kirkblade text, so your mileage may vary, but here you go: (http://www.imperial-library.info/content/forum-archives-michael-kirkbride)


To kill Man is to reach Heaven, from where we came before the Doom Drum's iniquity. When we accomplish this, we can escape the mockery and long shame of the Material Prison.

To achieve this goal, we must:

1) Erase the Upstart Talos from the mythic. His presence fortifies the Wheel of the Convention, and binds our souls to this plane.

2) Remove Man not just from the world, but from the Pattern of Possibility, so that the very idea of them can be forgotten and thereby never again repeated.

3) With Talos and the Sons of Talos removed, the Dragon will become ours to unbind. The world of mortals will be over. The Dragon will uncoil his hold on the stagnancy of linear time and move as Free Serpent again, moving through the Aether without measure or burden, spilling time along the innumerable roads we once travelled. And with that we will regain the mantle of the imperishable spirit.

[veti]

As was said, Skyrim politics been done to death. Still a fun topic. After some thought, I think there's just no scenario where either the Empire or Stormcloak Skyrim will fend off the Dominion.

Really? I don't see how the Thalmor could invade Skyrim if they tried.

Remember, the Dominion was fought to a standstill in the Great War and lost the greater part of its fighting force. And elves breed slowly. The Empire's population will have more or less recovered from that within another generation, but the Dominion's will take far longer.

Now look at a map. Where's Summerset? And where's Skyrim? Opposite ends of the map, that's where. Even the Thalmor's allies, Valenwood and Elsweyr, are nowhere near Skyrim. They'd have to go by sea, it's a long voyage, and they'd leave their homeland wide open to a counter-attack by either the Empire or the Redguards or anyone else who doesn't like them.

The civil war is a huge distraction. I don't think the Thalmor even care which side wins, either way their next move - is not going to be in Skyrim.

To the OP: I think the Empire is playing into the Thalmor's hands. The Imperial army is propping up a ruler (Elisif) who's weak, shortsighted and manipulated by anyone and everyone. The Empire presumably thinks that it can control her, but if General Tullius is representative of the Empire's political/diplomatic corps - well, let's just say it's no wonder the Empire has been losing provinces right and left. If the Empire wins the civil war, it's Elenwen who'll be pulling Elisif's strings, and Skyrim will become - to all intents and purposes - a province of the Dominion.

[Winter_Wolf]

Taking it down a few levels of hierarchy, my first go through was 100% tabula rosa and I had no idea what I was doing. It was great. I followed Hadvar because he actually expressed interest in my character's welfare. Notice how his attitude progresses throughout the main quest, versus Radolf's attitude. Gotta say, Radolf is a guy you can trust at your back. I started to think that Hadvar's petty jealousy was going to result in a shodown. By the time I'd finished the main quest my character was so thoroughly disgusted he retired to a shack in the wilderness. Another character followed the Stormcloaks and similarly retired in disgust, except at Ulfric.

The best thing for the race of men would be if someone just up and killed the weak emperor and replaced him.

Edit: for veti,
The civil war weakened both sides, and Ulfric doesn't present as someone who will turn around and offer an alliance with the weak Emperor. Dominion steamrolls the Empire. Skyrim finds few allies if any. Dominion convinces (by deceit if nothing else) some neighbors to either join the slaughter or just stand by. Dominion pushes man back into the north sea. And I detest the Aldmeri Dominion and all it and its genocidal Thalmor branch stand for. But what I'd like to see is the Yokudan/Redguards come swooping into their flank as the AD tries to crush Skyrim. Orcs decide to side against the Dominion because "those mer are a-holes". Beast races are iffy.

[Cikomyr]

I always thought one of Skyrim's biggest fail was the lack of race-specific twists one the main story. The standard storyline is clearly written with a Nord character in mind, but there should have been tweaks here and there:

- High Elves should have been allowed to join/work with the Thalmor
- Dunmers should have been allowed to leverage their influence to improve the Grey Quarters' citizen standings
- Bretons should have been allowed to join the Forsworns
- Orsmers should have been allowed to rally the Orc encampments to join one of the sidr

Etc.. not sure what we could have done with the Argonians, catfolks, Wood elves, Imperials and Redguards (forgetting someone?) But it would have been less immersion breaking to have your race matter to your options.

As for the whole current discussion. I agree with the people saying the Empire's forces were caught between a rock and a Hard place, but then again, the reason is because the Empire has been extremely weakened due to its political intrigues and civil strife. Its a dying giant that have not been able to defend itself or its citizens against the Aldemari Dominion.

I also agree with people saying the Stormcloaks are a culturo-centric people with problems dealing with other races. But then again, their agenda is dealing mostly with Skyrim itself rather than the greater world of the Elder Scrolls. The Stormcloaks have a better breath of purpose, even if their leader is probably just an opportunist. Ulric is riding a real societal wave, and we shouldnt dismiss the wave because of the man riding it.

I suspect the Stormcloak Nords would drop their xenophobe tendencies once they manage to establish themselves as ruler of their own land (and thus feeling more secured in their cultural identity). Plus, they are the nations most able to help out Morrowind's massive problems. The Empire certainly hasnt.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

- High Elves should have been allowed to join/work with the Thalmor

You kind of-sort of can...Diplomatic Immunity lets you literally walk past the guards in the first section like you belong there if you play an Altmer and wear the Hooded Thalmor Robes (ONLY the hooded version mind).

I'd also like to see more impact from my race/gender choices though. :smallfrown: So much of Tamriel just lies down and plays doormat to whatever your choices are.

[druid91]

I feel like if either side won, it would still be the aftermath of a civil war, and therefore still easy to invade.



I don't really understand what them taking casualties had to do with my post.

And the other statement goes down a path I do not like. I mean you could single handedly win a war against the Aldmeri Dominion and make the Stormcloaks and Empire both happy. I would rather have this discussion without that idea of it being a video game. Because technically, there is no reason to eat or live in a house, and making money is so easy that the culture would be insanely different.

You stated that the Aldmeri Dominion would crush them after the civil war. There's no evidence that the Aldmeri Dominion has the military power to do that without leaving themselves wide open to counterattack from the Empire and Hammerfell.

By allowing the Thalmor Justiciars to run free and stir up trouble, the Empire is giving them exactly the only way the Thalmor have to win the next war. Sowing chaos and discord and weakening everyone.

The best possible solution would be for the Empire to simply not fight the civil war.

And I'm not talking about it being a video game. The Dragonborn is, entirely IC an insanely powerful figure. The Dragonborn dynasty of the Septims, descended from Talos, is what founded the empire in the first place.

[Volcan]

You stated that the Aldmeri Dominion would crush them after the civil war. There's no evidence that the Aldmeri Dominion has the military power to do that without leaving themselves wide open to counterattack from the Empire and Hammerfell.

By allowing the Thalmor Justiciars to run free and stir up trouble, the Empire is giving them exactly the only way the Thalmor have to win the next war. Sowing chaos and discord and weakening everyone.

The best possible solution would be for the Empire to simply not fight the civil war.

And I'm not talking about it being a video game. The Dragonborn is, entirely IC an insanely powerful figure. The Dragonborn dynasty of the Septims, descended from Talos, is what founded the empire in the first place.

If the Thalmor couldn't win a war with the empire, then why is the treaty so oppressive? Doesn't the empire know that the Aldmeri Dominion never want's peace with them? I don't know how powerful the Dominion is, but I assumed it was powerful enough to win a war after the civil war. If not, that changes things completely, and I don't know why the empire is doing what they are if that is the case.

[McDouggal]

I always thought the logical endgame to the situation as presented in Skyrim would be the player character becoming Emperor. A large part of the legitimacy of the last line of Emperors has always been that they were dragonborn. Or descended from Dragonborn. That's why the Imperial coat of arms is a dragon. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the current Emperor isn't.

You are correct, the last line of dragonborn emperors died in the closing events of Oblivion's main story. I honestly thought that that would be what happened, especially since the Nerevarine was killed near the beginning of Oblivion.

[Mando Knight]

If the Thalmor couldn't win a war with the empire, then why is the treaty so oppressive?

Because even if the Dominion couldn't take the entire Empire, they did sack the Imperial City and forced the Legion to deplete their numbers in retaking it. The Emperor didn't believe he had the strength to demand more favorable terms at that point.

[DomaDoma]

The only thing that makes sense to me is that, in the Great War, BOTH sides were bled white. So, Titus doesn't want to call the Dominion's bluff (this did not work out great for him the first time around), but the Dominion, nonetheless, does need to buy itself some time.

And so the Concordat, to ensure that resistance is discouraged from the getgo. The Justiciars, to plant a buttload of enemy agents in every part of the Empire, with just enough fear surrounding them to make them unquestioned. The civil war, to deal with the little problem where the humans will have produced a whole new fighting-fit generation within thirty years. And would anybody be surprised if they also had a hand in the assassination?


As was said, Skyrim politics been done to death. Still a fun topic. After some thought, I think there's just no scenario where either the Empire or Stormcloak Skyrim will fend off the Dominion. Maybe the Redguards will hold out, maybe once other men are gone the mer will deal with them permanently.

Sadly, I have to think you're right. Of course, if this plotline is explored in any way similar to anything that's been established on the Thalmor so far, the Redguards WILL hold out.

Meaning, naturally, that our set of poetic considerations becomes:

1) Any sane polity wants enemy intelligence. If you don't see that, you should probably not be very big into politics.
2) We are at the westernmost point on the continent.
3) There are, in fact, four cardinal directions.
4) There is no such thing as droit du signeur of the open mike.
5) The accepted thematic form of high poetry is, roughly, "everything used to be so much shinier/wistful sigh." Anyone capable of this form is therefore a fully qualified poet.
6) If a fully qualified poet has gotten a huge land grant from your closest ally, don't snub him.
7) Important qualifier: aspersions on Morrowind are uncalled for.

(It's amazing how many wisecracks you can come up with when totally broken up about fictional worlds.)

[Grim Portent]

Because even if the Dominion couldn't take the entire Empire, they did sack the Imperial City and forced the Legion to deplete their numbers in retaking it. The Emperor didn't believe he had the strength to demand more favorable terms at that point.

He probably did, but they were scattered around the empire and waiting for them to muster for a counterattack would have meant leaving most of Cyrodiil in the hands of the Dominion, and the empire has always placed Cyrodiil above the other provinces' interests anyway, so sacrificing one province and restricting the freedoms of the others in order to prevent a few hundred/thousands Cyrodii citizens from dying and a few vineyards being burnt down was a sacrifice deal the empire was always inclined to take.



The Dominion as a nation is actively bad at extended warfare, relying very heavily on their powerful mages and lower grade battlemages to win fights, each one lost takes years to replace. The Bosmer and Khajiit levies they raise are unlikely to be loyal troops and will need a lot of oversight, though fear probably helps keep them in line. A very large number of Altmer died in the war and their population will be decades or centuries away from recovering, while the men will recover fast and should be more or less back to strength by now.

The Dominion also has a large amount of forces dedicated to suppressing the populace of their provinces and carrying out ethnic, political and religious purges, which can't really be redirected to other areas without risking an outright rebellion in their lands, which could rapidly lose them a future war.

Though the ultimate game changer would be if either side could convince Argonia to step in. The Argonians are the only race that wasn't devastated severely by the Oblivion Crisis, successfully fending it off in the novelization and then ceding from the empire as a result of Thalmor influence. Their population is large, healthy, able to deploy through terrain that is nigh impassible to normal troops and they have a natural knack for illusions, to the extent that in the lore a random farmer was able to cast paralysis spells (pre-Skyrim paralysis was an illusion).

[DomaDoma]

But actually, I had some pretty definite ideas about how to stop the Civil War. (That's what comes of designing your first Dragonborn to hail from Bruma, like a chump. Oh, the railroading. It seared me.)

1) Set Balgruuf up as the center of an anti-dragon coalition. It's clear the dragons are a common enemy. Not only does that provide a third option for anyone sensible enough not to fight a war between what is, quite literally, two sides of a coin - and I don't imagine Balgruuf would be looking too closely for deserters from the preexisting armies, either - but it makes an excellent reason for Ulfric not to attack him.
2) Get the dossier to Ulfric. My Dragonborn would have done it through Rikke (having joined the Legion in the hopes that Tullius would then put in a word for Thorald Gray-Mane... yeah. I despise Tullius.) A Stormcloak could do it directly. Either way, Ulfric would absolutely take it to heart. Which would lead to:
3) Hold a King's Moot, with Elisif and Ulfric explicitly not in the running. Ideally, the High King would then be Balgruuf. But I can easily see Balgruuf declining. Next-best option: Korir. He gets to rebuild Winterhold to its former glory and has not the slightest interest in the other Holds, so anything they might get up to is completely out of his hands.
4) Don't be in a hurry to phase out the anti-dragon coalition.

[Mando Knight]

Korir would be too weak of a choice as High King, I think. He utterly despises the one thing his hold has left to offer, and if all he does is focus on rebuilding his own province, what use is he as High King? If you wanted to install a puppet as High King, you would pick an inexperienced leader who nonetheless is in charge of a hold of great economic or military importance to the province (i.e. Elisif). Yes, Balgruuf is probably the best choice for High King if you eliminate Elisif and Ulfric from the competition, but none of the others are really contenders at all, to the point where I'd probably rather go back to Elisif or Ulfric.

[DomaDoma]

If you want a resolution to the key Civil War issue of whether we're in the Empire or not, either you have a settlement palatable to both sides, which is what Balgruuf would effect, or you de facto let that decision be made at the local level, which a weak High King would ensure. Elisif, knowing the basic purpose of the peace, would gladly play my-hands-are-tied. The main trouble there, with the original run of Jarls, is Markarth and Falkreath. But don't forget: the REAL strength of Skyrim still rests in Whiterun.

(Of course, there's no scenario in which Markarth isn't a problem. That place is ceded, not to the Silver-Bloods or the Thalmor or anyone else in the game, but to George R.R. Martin. Irredeemable.)

EDIT: And hey, since the end of the war has reduced other claims on the place, we can always send the Mages Guild to Castle Dour... :smallwink:

[Mando Knight]

A weak High King wouldn't be acceptable to either side, and a divided Skyrim is literally what the whole civil war is being fought to resolve. Appoint a weak High King on Skyrim without removing Ulfric or the Empire from the equation, and both sides will force the king to abdicate as they resume fighting.

[DomaDoma]

But in this scenario, Ulfric has been removed from the equation. Just keep Skyrim nominally in the Empire, and the Empire won't be forced to intervene either.

[Yuki Akuma]

I don't really understand what them taking casualties had to do with my post.

And the other statement goes down a path I do not like. I mean you could single handedly win a war against the Aldmeri Dominion and make the Stormcloaks and Empire both happy. I would rather have this discussion without that idea of it being a video game. Because technically, there is no reason to eat or live in a house, and making money is so easy that the culture would be insanely different.

I just want to pick at this a bit. The player character is genuinely a superhuman (or superelven, or superargonian- you get it) who has the in-setting power to defeat armies practically singlehanded, as well as an innate desire to dominate others due to being a dragon in mortal form. Elder Scrolls protagonists aren't powerful just because it's a videogame and they're the protagonist - they actually canonically have amazing abilities very few other people can hope to match.

Having the Dragonborn on your side really would be a deciding factor in a war, because this is a dude who can master any mortal endeavor as well as call fire from the sky and turn super saiyan.

[Volcan]

I just want to pick at this a bit. The player character is genuinely a superhuman (or superelven, or superargonian- you get it) who has the in-setting power to defeat armies practically singlehanded, as well as an innate desire to dominate others due to being a dragon in mortal form. Elder Scrolls protagonists aren't powerful just because it's a videogame and they're the protagonist - they actually canonically have amazing abilities very few other people can hope to match.

Having the Dragonborn on your side really would be a deciding factor in a war, because this is a dude who can master any mortal endeavor as well as call fire from the sky and turn super saiyan.

I mean, you're right, but even so, you can be killed by someone who isn't a dragon born pretty easily. In terms of a battle they would make a solid impact, but a war, not so much.

[Balmas]

When it comes to the Skyrim Civil War, I usually land square in the "Screw your factions" faction. The true enemy of either faction, I think, is not Empire or Stormcloaks, but the Thalmor. What I want is a mod where, instead of weakening either side with pointless infighting, the Dovahkiin can take the fight to the Aldmeri.

If I were forced to choose, I guess the question is, would I rather fight for the Thalmor, or against them? That's what it comes down to. Empire is for the Thalmor, Stormcloaks are against.

Plus, the fact that the empire decides to give you a viking crew cut for no reason in the first five minutes is a rather convincing reason not to join them.

[Grim Portent]

Previous dragonborn are attributed as destroying entire armies with the power of the Voice and changing the geography and climate of entire provinces.

Not to mention the Last Dragonborn defeats a literal god in Alduin.

I would say pwoerful dragonborn are at least as powerful as the living gods of the Tribunal were, and one of them suspended a meteor in the sky while it was in the process of crashing into his city and fixed it there until he died to end the threat posed by Dagoth Ur.

[druid91]

I mean, you're right, but even so, you can be killed by someone who isn't a dragon born pretty easily. In terms of a battle they would make a solid impact, but a war, not so much.

You are vastly underestimating the power of CHIM.

There is a reason why they hint at you being a Reincarnation of Talos if you join the Imperial Legion and win the war for them.

[Volcan]

Previous dragonborn are attributed as destroying entire armies with the power of the Voice and changing the geography and climate of entire provinces.

Not to mention the Last Dragonborn defeats a literal god in Alduin.

I would say pwoerful dragonborn are at least as powerful as the living gods of the Tribunal were, and one of them suspended a meteor in the sky while it was in the process of crashing into his city and fixed it there until he died to end the threat posed by Dagoth Ur.

If this is true, which I guess it is, then the game is utterly ridiculous. The amount of times I've died to some bandit highwaymen, or a random drougr deathlord, does not make it seem like I am that powerful.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

@DomaDoma: I'm inclined to agree with Mando Knight that a weak High King would be a bad idea, if for no other reason than we WILL be fighting the Third Aldmeri Dominion sooner or later, and Skyrim will need a leader they can rally behind, not one the Jarls all ignore and decide to do their own thing rather than follow. The Dominion EXCELS at sowing discord and a weak ruler wouldn't be able to deal with that.

I do agree Balgruuf would be an excellent choice, if he could be convinced to take the job. If not, what about that Free-Winter fellow? The one who takes over Windhelm if you take the Imperial side to the end of the war?

[Grim Portent]

If this is true, which I guess it is, then the game is utterly ridiculous. The amount of times I've died to some bandit highwaymen, or a random drougr deathlord, does not make it seem like I am that powerful.

In canon the protagonists, from Morrowwind onwards (also retroactively into the older games) are attributed as possessing the power to reset their existence to an earlier point in time, freeze time and alter reality. They canonically are impossible to kill because they can just reset to an earlier point in time. Basically the save and load functions are canon in the settings, but only possessed by about 5 people throughout history so far. The ability to stop time mid-fight and eat fifty cheese wheels to heal is also canon. Vivec, one of the living gods in Morrowwind, wrote a book about it which you can read in the game.



In a less lighthearted aspect of the game though, the Last Dragonborn is implied to be the reincarnation of Tiber Septim (the god Talos), the chosen champion of the god Akatosh, bears the blessings of multiple divines, all the daedric lords, slew one of the worlds most powerful vampires, leads the most powerful assassins guild and for which he serves as the prophet of the original god of chaos, has come into direct contact with the eye of a god (the Morrowwind protagonist came into contact with one's heart), has free access to the realm of Hermaeus Mora, who knows almost all knowledge that does, will or can exist. They can control the weather, the minds of the weak willed, dragons, time and the forces of nature.



For reference of how powerful the characters are supposed to be in the lore by the way, the character from Oblivion is canonically the daedric lord Sheogorath now. They killed the old one and took his place. Killed a literal god, and became his successor. All after being the prophet of the god of chaos, champion of all but one of the daedric lords, champion of the entire pantheon of the nine divines, the reincarnation (it's implied) of Pelinal Whitestrake a champion who served the first empress, who broke a curse cast by a god, slew the most powerful evil wizard to ever live, as well as a myriad of lesser feats.

[Eldan]

If this is true, which I guess it is, then the game is utterly ridiculous. The amount of times I've died to some bandit highwaymen, or a random drougr deathlord, does not make it seem like I am that powerful.

The Hero of the Elder Scrolls has the power of, in hte moment of their death, turning back time to a point where they weren't dead.

Yes, quicksave is canon.

[Yuki Akuma]

_volcan_, I think starting with Skyrim and not even exploring all of the game world yet has caused you to seriously underestimate how goddamn weird the setting actually is. On the surface it looks like generic European fantasy, but it's... not.

[DomaDoma]

@DomaDoma: I'm inclined to agree with Mando Knight that a weak High King would be a bad idea, if for no other reason than we WILL be fighting the Third Aldmeri Dominion sooner or later, and Skyrim will need a leader they can rally behind, not one the Jarls all ignore and decide to do their own thing rather than follow. The Dominion EXCELS at sowing discord and a weak ruler wouldn't be able to deal with that.

I do agree Balgruuf would be an excellent choice, if he could be convinced to take the job. If not, what about that Free-Winter fellow? The one who takes over Windhelm if you take the Imperial side to the end of the war?

Brunwulf Free-Winter. Not a bad option at all, no. It miiight be going a bit far to expect Ulfric to cede Windhelm to him before the Moot, as it's not strictly necessary and Galmar would have a cow, but in the unlikely event, that'd be wonderful.

Yeah. Point taken on the discord-sowing.

[Volcan]

The Hero of the Elder Scrolls has the power of, in hte moment of their death, turning back time to a point where they weren't dead.

Yes, quicksave is canon.

You guys are right, but it never says anything about that being a power of the dragon born, so I assumed it was just there because it is a game and it is not dark souls.

[Yuki Akuma]

You guys are right, but it never says anything about that being a power of the dragon born, so I assumed it was just there because it is a game and it is not dark souls.

Nah, that's not a power of being Dragonborn.

That's a power of CHIM.

[Grim Portent]

It's not exactly a power of the dragonborn, only one other dragonborn is meant to have had it, and that was Tiber Septim. It's a protagonist power that is only rarely referenced since Morrowwind.

In canon the idea is that the protagonists have achieved a state of spiritual transcendence that has otherwise only been achieved by Vivec and Tiber Septim. It is incredibly weird to understand because it is A) written about as strangely as possible to emulate religious and philosophical texts and B) starts with some spiritual assumptions that contradict most human religions.

As I've understood it CHIM is the state of transcending mortal limitations, like time, space, physical form, physics so on and so forth. It's why you do not need to eat or sleep, can fast travel, save and do all sorts of other stuff that's kind of insane. It's only supposed to be attainable by mortals and not gods because gods don't understand that they are limited in the first place and can therefore never overcome their limits.

[The_Jackal]

Okay, here we go. The Stormcloaks are right, the Empire is wrong, and for one simple reason: Might equals right. The Empire isn't a democracy, it doesn't derive it's legitimacy from consent of the governed. Its power is what legitimizes its rule. The subjects of the Empire abide their governance because their power prevents them from being tyrannized by less palatable invaders, like the Thalmor. You might have noticed that under the current Empire leadership, Thalmor openly walk Skyrim kidnapping, torturing and killing Nords for their religious beliefs. It's like the line from Game of Thrones: "A King defends his people, or he is no King at all."

[Mando Knight]

As more tongue-in-cheek, winking-at-the-fourth-wall theories, I've come to think of the Elder Scrolls as being "the code of the game itself."

[factotum]

For reference of how powerful the characters are supposed to be in the lore by the way, the character from Oblivion is canonically the daedric lord Sheogorath now. They killed the old one and took his place.

I never quite understood how that worked, considering the Sheogorath in that quest in Skyrim refers to Pelagius as an "old friend"--which makes no sense if he was the guy from Oblivion, considering Pelagius died more than 200 years before he was born?

[Spore]

I never quite understood how that worked, considering the Sheogorath in that quest in Skyrim refers to Pelagius as an "old friend"--which makes no sense if he was the guy from Oblivion, considering Pelagius died more than 200 years before he was born?

Since WHEN has the Daedric Prince of Madness started to make sense? Maybe it is just a joke on his behalf, maybe Shivering Isles is not canon, maybe the Hero of Kvatch has absorbed Sheogorath's past memories.

I tend to go with the expansion being non-canon because it makes the most sense to newer players. Also the Princes would have sprung into action if Jyggalag reappeared and stopped them from having their way with the mortals. Maybe he would have even started to make plans about strengthening Talos because having proper borders between planes is important to a "demigod of order" or whatever Daedric Princes actually are considered.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

My understanding of mantling is that when you mantle a god or similar power, normally you merge with them, and they get access to your power and vice-versa. But when an aspect breaks away it doesn't take all the collected power with them (witness Clavicus Vile in the Lord of Souls book...and for that matter normally, with Barbas), they become two entities again and each gets a portion. Jyggalag presumably left something 'behind' when he became himself again.

And if nothing else, Haskill can fill Sheo in on what he's supposed to know about himself.

[Aeson]

I never quite understood how that worked, considering the Sheogorath in that quest in Skyrim refers to Pelagius as an "old friend"--which makes no sense if he was the guy from Oblivion, considering Pelagius died more than 200 years before he was born?
If you played Oblivion as an older elf, it isn't impossible that your player character was alive prior to the death of the Emperor Pelagius. It might not be all that likely, but not impossible. Probably still doesn't make much sense for Pelagius to have been an old friend, though. For that matter, with it apparently not being unheard of (though also not that common) for elves to live to ~1000 years (and with extreme examples like Divayth Fyr living for 4000 or more), it's also not impossible that an older elf player character in Oblivion could have been old enough to have met Tiber Septim, or maybe even have lived through a reasonable portion of the Second Era in addition to more or less all of the Third Era.

Granted, in either case you kind of have to do mental gymnastics to justify why the player character, despite being hundreds of years old, is merely level 1 at the start of the game and is no better off than any other level 1 character.


Since WHEN has the Daedric Prince of Madness started to make sense? Maybe it is just a joke on his behalf, maybe Shivering Isles is not canon, maybe the Hero of Kvatch has absorbed Sheogorath's past memories.
You could also argue that Pelagius became a resident of Sheogorath's realm after his death, though I don't recall him being present in Shivering Isles. It sometimes appears as though the various Daedric Princes have some claim on the souls of certain mortals, and that the mortals whose souls are so claimed may end up in the realm of a Daedric Prince after the mortals' deaths. With ~2 centuries between the end of Oblivion and the start of Skyrim, that leaves plenty of time for the Champion of Cyrodiil turned Sheogorath to become 'old friends' with Pelagius, if Pelagius is there. There's also the possibility that the flow of time is different, or at least less linear, in the realms of Oblivion than on Mundus.

But yes, I generally agree with the sentiment that actions of Sheogorath, the probably not entirely sane Prince of Madness, need not make sense. Whether he's lying, playing a prank, truly believes or actually does know Pelagius likely doesn't really matter so far as he is concerned.

[Cikomyr]

But in this scenario, Ulfric has been removed from the equation. Just keep Skyrim nominally in the Empire, and the Empire won't be forced to intervene either.

But it doesnt solve the War's Casus Belli. Is the worship of Talos still allowed or not? Are the Thalmor inquisitord allowed to roam the land?

[DomaDoma]

But it doesnt solve the War's Casus Belli. Is the worship of Talos still allowed or not? Are the Thalmor inquisitord allowed to roam the land?

De jure yes; de facto, only in Markarth and Falkreath. Kareeah's convinced me that the Korir option wouldn't work anyway, so let's just stick with Balgruuf. You know how Whiterun is run with regard to matters of heresy, yes? Apply that to the whole province.

And Falkreath is just about entirely Siddgeir's fault (side note: pretty sure his steward is a Thalmor agent actually intent on good press.) Once everything's settled down, there's ample excuse to depose him.

[Yuki Akuma]

I believe the flow of time in Oblivion canonically doesn't have to match up with the flow of time in Mundus - considering the timeline in Mundus is Akatosh and the timeline outside of Mundus doesn't necessarily have anything to do with him.

Mora and Azura both have abilities that would require them to be able to ignore the normal flow of time, and I don't see why other Daedric Princes should have to respect it either.

[Cikomyr]

De jure yes; de facto, only in Markarth and Falkreath. Kareeah's convinced me that the Korir option wouldn't work anyway, so let's just stick with Balgruuf. You know how Whiterun is run with regard to matters of heresy, yes? Apply that to the whole province.

And Falkreath is just about entirely Siddgeir's fault (side note: pretty sure his steward is a Thalmor agent actually intent on good press.) Once everything's settled down, there's ample excuse to depose him.

Ok. Then, if the Thalmor shows up with the Emperor authority to enforce the Treaty in ALL of Skyrim?

Because, thats ultimately the issue. The Emperor has given authority to the Thalmor, and Skyrim rebels against that autority.

[DomaDoma]

Like the Emperor wouldn't turn a blind eye given the option. (This scenario does assume Titus Mede II is Emperor. I cannot stress how deeply futile this scenario is when applied to the canonical games.)

Of course the Thalmor Justiciars WILL show up. But they'll meet stonewalling at every official level, and the less-official levels will give them worse than that. Just enough of a mask of compliance that it's not, technically, a violation of the treaty.

Besides, you've already massacred their embassy. That would make for a violation of any treaty ever to exist. But there's a distinct lack of war-rumblings about that - which can only mean that the Dominion forces aren't feeling quite hale and hearty just yet.

[Crow]

I never understood all the pro-Balgruuf talk. He always struck me as weak, or a bit of a ditherer.

Maybe not; but still not this perfect option that some people make him out to be.

[Grim Portent]

Like the Emperor wouldn't turn a blind eye given the option. (This scenario does assume Titus Mede II is Emperor. I cannot stress how deeply futile this scenario is when applied to the canonical games.)

Of course the Thalmor Justiciars WILL show up. But they'll meet stonewalling at every official level, and the less-official levels will give them worse than that. Just enough of a mask of compliance that it's not, technically, a violation of the treaty.

Besides, you've already massacred their embassy. That would make for a violation of any treaty ever to exist. But there's a distinct lack of war-rumblings about that - which can only mean that the Dominion forces aren't feeling quite hale and hearty just yet.

No one involved in the embassy incident is a member of the Empire or Skyrim government, so it's not any more of a treaty violation than bandits robbing a Thalmor patrol is.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

I never understood all the pro-Balgruuf talk.

He's got the common sense to stay out of the unwinnable war as long as possible. He's smart and experienced enough to distrust the Thalmor. He cares about his people. When a major disaster (dragons) really does hit, he acts decisively and without regard to appearances; he doesn't stand on ceremony just to do so. He thinks long term. He listens to his advisers, and he has a variety of them with different viewpoints rather than a horde all shouting the same thing. :smallconfused: How exactly do you get 'ditherer?'

[Winter_Wolf]

I always got the sense Balgruuf was a badass in his day, and has lived long enough to temper his, er, temper...with a bit of restraint. He's still kind of pissed about how things are going down. Remember his rant about how something something "and we were told to like it!" I suspect he actually hates the Thalmor, but doesn't side with Ulfric because he sees an egomaniac who can't actually do better.

Speaking of whom, I think it was Alvor (who's the smith in Riverwood again?) said that people weren't giving up Talos worship, but Ulfric made such a big stink that it basically gave the Thalmor an excuse to come in and start aggressively rooting out Talos worshippers. I'm a fan of Ulfric's general goal, but damn he's just such a bastard.

[Cikomyr]

Baalgruf happens to be the most tri-dimensional of the Jarls. We get to see.many aspects of him, because he was the one who was given the most care in his design. He is the first Jarl one would usually meet, after all.

I kind of disliked how most of the other Jarls were presented as nothing but placeholders and occasional quest givers. Exception being the lady who had divination skills. She was cool.

I suppose the grumpy Jarl of Winterhold was also funny, albeit... restricted.

I despised the Jarl of Markath. In fact, i despised most of Markath's quests and NPCs. Bunch of broken stupid railroads without point or end. Too bad, because i LOVED the city itself.

[DomaDoma]

Idgrod Ravencrone is the shiz, yes.

I don't know what's left to love about Markarth once you've (justly) ruled out everyone in it and everything they ask you to do. (Okay, the quest for Calcelmo's Falmer research was pretty awesome. But that came from outside, dangit.) The majestic river canyon, maybe? Eh, you can always catch that on the way to Sky Haven.

Anyway, talking of "standing on ceremony": as far as Elder Scrolls railroading goes, the part where you can't accomplish anything by prematurely heading southeast, rather than towards the dude who totally abandoned you to die two quests ago, was a painful one. But it pales next to the total inability to put vital military intelligence to use after the main quest all but whaps you over the nose with it. At least the former makes sense with most PCs' character motivations.

[Winter_Wolf]

Something I wonder about, why are Balgruuf's kids so messed up? Can it all be pinned on "external influences" or were their mother(s) some kind of unhinged freaks in their own right? It just seems lazy to pin it all on daedric influence, but I'm not seeing anything else at play.

What's up with Proventis? Is he really after the Jarl's best interests? Is he an Imperial spy? Is it just because he's so steeped in courtly graces? Gotta say I find it hard to like him. You know who I really like, is Galmar. He's very convincing, and his conviction is based in a very plausible logic. Even if his first reaction is to send you on a suicide mission. If it wasn't for his grizzled outlook I'd probably have betrayed Ulfric first chance I got. Couldn't be the face of the Rebellion, but he's certainly the heart and spirit of it.

[The_Jackal]

He's got the common sense to stay out of the unwinnable war as long as possible. He's smart and experienced enough to distrust the Thalmor. He cares about his people. When a major disaster (dragons) really does hit, he acts decisively and without regard to appearances; he doesn't stand on ceremony just to do so. He thinks long term. He listens to his advisers, and he has a variety of them with different viewpoints rather than a horde all shouting the same thing. :smallconfused: How exactly do you get 'ditherer?'

If he cares about his people, then why isn't he marching on Northwatch Keep to rescue his kidnapped vassal (http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Missing_In_Action)?

[Crow]

If he cares about his people, then why isn't he marching on Northwatch Keep to rescue his kidnapped vassal (http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Missing_In_Action)?

I'm sure Proventus advised him against it. Let's not upset our Thalmor overlords.

:D

[factotum]

If he cares about his people, then why isn't he marching on Northwatch Keep to rescue his kidnapped vassal (http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Missing_In_Action)?

Whatever else Balgruuf is, he is not omniscient. Do you have some evidence that he knew about Thorald Gray-Mane being kidnapped and chose to do nothing about it, or (as I think) that he simply didn't know the guy was missing?

[Spore]

If he cares about his people, then why isn't he marching on Northwatch Keep to rescue his kidnapped vassal (http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Missing_In_Action)?

You cannot free a prisoner as a ruler withour provoking an incident. This is a job best suited for a singular infiltrator such as you.

[DomaDoma]

Whatever else Balgruuf is, he is not omniscient. Do you have some evidence that he knew about Thorald Gray-Mane being kidnapped and chose to do nothing about it, or (as I think) that he simply didn't know the guy was missing?

Thorald is the nephew of one of Balgruuf's thanes. He probably knew. But it seems pretty apparent that Idolaf Battle-Born is the only person in Whiterun who knew he was alive and the Thalmor had him. Because he personally wrote the military governor about the matter, on the off chance he wasn't dead. Kind of makes you wonder why the fandom doesn't go on about the tragic estrangement between Idolaf and Thorald the way they do with Hadvar and Ralof.

(Of course, there's always the chance that Olfrid knew and didn't care. Among characters who don't wield any real power, that guy is probably the most colossal douche in the game.)

[Cikomyr]

Idgrod Ravencrone is the shiz, yes.

I don't know what's left to love about Markarth once you've (justly) ruled out everyone in it and everything they ask you to do. (Okay, the quest for Calcelmo's Falmer research was pretty awesome. But that came from outside, dangit.) The majestic river canyon, maybe? Eh, you can always catch that on the way to Sky Haven.

I loved the design of the city. The way it was carved in stone.


, talking of "standing on ceremony": as far as Elder Scrolls railroading goes, the part where you can't accomplish anything by prematurely heading southeast, rather than towards the dude who totally abandoned you to die two quests ago, was a painful one. But it pales next to the total inability to put vital military intelligence to use after the main quest all but whaps you over the nose with it. At least the former makes sense with most PCs' character motivations.

You may need to remind me of which quests these are..

[DomaDoma]

The first one is a giant spoiler that you probably don't know firsthand, so I was rather hedging my phrasing there. (The impression about totally being left to die seems idiosyncratic to my paranoid first playthrough.) But the second is, of course, running across the file stating that the whole rebellion was instigated by the Thalmor, right next to files you need to read in order to progress the game. And then you don't have the option to show that to anyone. Maddening.

[veti]

I never quite understood how that worked, considering the Sheogorath in that quest in Skyrim refers to Pelagius as an "old friend"--which makes no sense if he was the guy from Oblivion, considering Pelagius died more than 200 years before he was born?

If I'd been having tea with someone every Tuesday for 200 years, I'd consider them a pretty "old friend" too.

Having said that - I don't see any hint in Sheogorath's dialogue that he was formerly the Hero of Kvatch, Saviour of Bruma, Champion of Cyrodiil etc.


Ok. Then, if the Thalmor shows up with the Emperor authority to enforce the Treaty in ALL of Skyrim?

Because, thats ultimately the issue. The Emperor has given authority to the Thalmor, and Skyrim rebels against that autority.

So? Kill them. Kill every Thalmor who sets foot in Skyrim.

When the Thalmor demand retribution, hang a few bandits. Plenty of them around. Rinse and repeat as long as necessary, until the Thalmor get tired of depleting their ranks of inquisitors.

Honestly, I don't know why the Empire is even fighting in Skyrim. The government of Skyrim is a purely internal matter for the people of Skyrim to settle among themselves, by whatever process they see fit. If the Empire respected that degree of autonomy, it could (a) save all the lives lost in the civil war, (b) keep Skyrim in the empire, and (c) laugh at the Thalmor. "You want to enforce the Concordat in Skyrim? Go right ahead, we'll hold your coats for you."

[DomaDoma]

Having said that - I don't see any hint in Sheogorath's dialogue that he was formerly the Hero of Kvatch, Saviour of Bruma, Champion of Cyrodiil etc.


I do. But I choose to ignore it.


So? Kill them. Kill every Thalmor who sets foot in Skyrim.

When the Thalmor demand retribution, hang a few bandits. Plenty of them around. Rinse and repeat as long as necessary, until the Thalmor get tired of depleting their ranks of inquisitors.

Honestly, I don't know why the Empire is even fighting in Skyrim. The government of Skyrim is a purely internal matter for the people of Skyrim to settle among themselves, by whatever process they see fit. If the Empire respected that degree of autonomy, it could (a) save all the lives lost in the civil war, (b) keep Skyrim in the empire, and (c) laugh at the Thalmor. "You want to enforce the Concordat in Skyrim? Go right ahead, we'll hold your coats for you."

Love this.

The reason Titus isn't doing that? Probably much less to do with the Concordat than with a self-defeating sense that the Empire can't afford to lose any more provinces and Strong Central Authority is the way to prevent that. (Titus II should have been a general. All indications say his peacetime politics suck.)

[Eldan]

Should be considered, yeah. Hire a force of irregulars to patrol the borders and kill all Thalmor that try to come in officially. if the Dragonborn doesn't want to be Emperor, he can lead them.

[Cikomyr]

That might work.

Until the Thalmor insists to be escorted by Imperial contingents. Or the Thalmor literally bring their own army.

[factotum]

Having said that - I don't see any hint in Sheogorath's dialogue that he was formerly the Hero of Kvatch, Saviour of Bruma, Champion of Cyrodiil etc.


I think the main evidence for that doesn't come from his dialog. The Sheogorath you meet in Skyrim appears to be blind, for instance, which I think is something that happens to the Hero of Kvatch during the Shivering Isles plotline.

[The_Jackal]

Whatever else Balgruuf is, he is not omniscient. Do you have some evidence that he knew about Thorald Gray-Mane being kidnapped and chose to do nothing about it, or (as I think) that he simply didn't know the guy was missing?

No evidence, but I find it extremely unlikely that Idolaf was able to get better information than Balgruuf would have, and Fralia most certainly would have asked the Jarl to investigate as to Thorald's fate. So either a) he didn't bother to look, b) he looked and found what what Idolaf knew and did nothing or c) he investigated, but Tullius kept from the Jarl of Whiterun information he gave to one of his vassals. What do you think is more likely? My money is on a, because it fits in with his character of being unwilling to be placed in a position where he would need to act.


You cannot free a prisoner as a ruler withour provoking an incident. This is a job best suited for a singular infiltrator such as you.

Yes, let's not offend the kidnappers and torturers of the Thalmor, someone might get upset!


Honestly, I don't know why the Empire is even fighting in Skyrim. The government of Skyrim is a purely internal matter for the people of Skyrim to settle among themselves, by whatever process they see fit. If the Empire respected that degree of autonomy, it could (a) save all the lives lost in the civil war, (b) keep Skyrim in the empire, and (c) laugh at the Thalmor. "You want to enforce the Concordat in Skyrim? Go right ahead, we'll hold your coats for you."

THIS. 1000 times this. The solution to the Skyrim crisis is to marry Elisif off to a loyal Imperial subject, have him bend the knee to Ulfric, and let them have the autonomy to choose their level of enforcement on the ban on Talos worship (which would be, conveniently, zero). But instead, Titus Mede II is a gutless softsword, and would rather be the instrument of Thalmor tyranny than stand up to them. It's no wonder his own councilors conspired to have him killed

[Crow]

Honestly, I don't know why the Empire is even fighting in Skyrim. The government of Skyrim is a purely internal matter for the people of Skyrim to settle among themselves, by whatever process they see fit. If the Empire respected that degree of autonomy, it could (a) save all the lives lost in the civil war, (b) keep Skyrim in the empire, and (c) laugh at the Thalmor. "You want to enforce the Concordat in Skyrim? Go right ahead, we'll hold your coats for you."

Boom. This. :)


Should be considered, yeah. Hire a force of irregulars to patrol the borders and kill all Thalmor that try to come in officially. if the Dragonborn doesn't want to be Emperor, he can lead them.

If there's anything I know; It's that the dragonborn LOVES killing Thalmor.

[DomaDoma]

No evidence, but I find it extremely unlikely that Idolaf was able to get better information than Balgruuf would have, and Fralia most certainly would have asked the Jarl to investigate as to Thorald's fate. So either a) he didn't bother to look, b) he looked and found what what Idolaf knew and did nothing or c) he investigated, but Tullius kept from the Jarl of Whiterun information he gave to one of his vassals. What do you think is more likely? My money is on a, because it fits in with his character of being unwilling to be placed in a position where he would need to act.

All I know is, the Gray-Manes' big lead seems to be the Battle-Borns and the Jarl doesn't enter into it. File it under "this is Elder Scrolls and the PC has a monopoly on arduous quests."


Yes, let's not offend the kidnappers and torturers of the Thalmor, someone might get upset!

He's not really in a position secure enough to upset those someones with action so overt. And not just the Thalmor. If he dispatched a mass of guards to march past Solitude, to storm the gates of Northwatch Keep, to rescue a Stormcloak, it would look very much like he was weighing in with Ulfric.

Of course, given the immense improbability that Hammerfell is hunting down its own first citizens for speaking out against the Thalmor, I think only Irileth's eagle eye has kept Balgruuf from assassination already.

[Aux-Ash]

So? Kill them. Kill every Thalmor who sets foot in Skyrim.

When the Thalmor demand retribution, hang a few bandits. Plenty of them around. Rinse and repeat as long as necessary, until the Thalmor get tired of depleting their ranks of inquisitors.

Honestly, I don't know why the Empire is even fighting in Skyrim. The government of Skyrim is a purely internal matter for the people of Skyrim to settle among themselves, by whatever process they see fit. If the Empire respected that degree of autonomy, it could (a) save all the lives lost in the civil war, (b) keep Skyrim in the empire, and (c) laugh at the Thalmor. "You want to enforce the Concordat in Skyrim? Go right ahead, we'll hold your coats for you."

This is playing with extremely high stakes though. Any state, no matter which one it is, will insist upon the security of it's citizens/agents. If the empire cannot or will not protect the Thalmor in Skyrim then the Dominion will insist to be allowed to protect their own. If the empire allows it, then the Thalmor will invade SKyrim in force and try to occupy the cities that oppose them. If they don't then they've just handed the Dominion a cause of war.

Basically... the empire have to enforce the Thalmor's will on Skyrim or bet on the fact that the Dominion, which not too long ago beat the empire, won't be able to go to war over it.

Refusing is the geopolitical equalient of going All in with only a low pair on hand.

[The_Jackal]

This is playing with extremely high stakes though. Any state, no matter which one it is, will insist upon the security of it's citizens/agents. If the empire cannot or will not protect the Thalmor in Skyrim then the Dominion will insist to be allowed to protect their own. If the empire allows it, then the Thalmor will invade SKyrim in force and try to occupy the cities that oppose them. If they don't then they've just handed the Dominion a cause of war.

Basically... the empire have to enforce the Thalmor's will on Skyrim or bet on the fact that the Dominion, which not too long ago beat the empire, won't be able to go to war over it.

Refusing is the geopolitical equalient of going All in with only a low pair on hand.

The problem is that the Thalmor running their little inquisition across the Empire already IS casus belli, and anyone pretending it isn't is indulging in weapons-grade self-delusion. That's the problem with the White-Gold Concordat; it effectively makes the Empire a proxy-state of the Thalmor. If that's the limit of Titus Mede II's leadership, then Hammerfell, Skyrim and the rest of the constituents of the Empire are better off without him.

Also, the Thalmor didn't beat the Empire, they fought each other to exhaustion, which was how the Concordat was reached. If the Thalmor really are strong enough to sweep away the Imperial Army, then why bother to negotiate at all? Just bulldoze Cyrodil and start the wholesale slaughter of the helpless lands of the Empire. You want to stop the worship of Talos? Great, kill all humans, and there will no longer be any Talos worship. Problem solved.

But they didn't, so I think it's safe to say that the outcome of renewed war between the Thalmor and the Empire would not be a foregone conclusion. And if fighting a war with the Thalmor is a bad idea, then I fail to see how continuing to stand by policies which are tearing your empire apart is a good one.


He's not really in a position secure enough to upset those someones with action so overt. And not just the Thalmor. If he dispatched a mass of guards to march past Solitude, to storm the gates of Northwatch Keep, to rescue a Stormcloak, it would look very much like he was weighing in with Ulfric.

Of course, given the immense improbability that Hammerfell is hunting down its own first citizens for speaking out against the Thalmor, I think only Irileth's eagle eye has kept Balgruuf from assassination already.

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

[factotum]

But they didn't, so I think it's safe to say that the outcome of renewed war between the Thalmor and the Empire would not be a foregone conclusion. And if fighting a war with the Thalmor is a bad idea, then I fail to see how continuing to stand by policies which are tearing your empire apart is a good one.


Which is something you can confidently say, knowing you have more information on this than any of the characters you're talking about. Titus Medes doesn't have the luxury of looking at the Elder Scrolls wiki and saying, "Hold on a sec, the Thalmor were just as badly beat up as we were at the end of the last war, they'll be easy pickings now!". Not to mention that he has to worry about people getting killed if he gets it wrong, which is another problem you don't have.

[veti]

Of course, given the immense improbability that Hammerfell is hunting down its own first citizens for speaking out against the Thalmor, I think only Irileth's eagle eye has kept Balgruuf from assassination already.

If you're referring to the Alik'r ("Curved. Swords.") warriors, I'm pretty sure they're not hunting down anyone for speaking out against the Thalmor. They're hunting a war criminal for selling out a city to the Thalmor.

[Crow]

Which is something you can confidently say, knowing you have more information on this than any of the characters you're talking about. Titus Medes doesn't have the luxury of looking at the Elder Scrolls wiki and saying, "Hold on a sec, the Thalmor were just as badly beat up as we were at the end of the last war, they'll be easy pickings now!". Not to mention that he has to worry about people getting killed if he gets it wrong, which is another problem you don't have.

I'd have to imagine the Empire has a pretty robust intelligence network.

[Eldan]

Well, had. They got rid of it.

[The_Jackal]

Which is something you can confidently say, knowing you have more information on this than any of the characters you're talking about. Titus Medes doesn't have the luxury of looking at the Elder Scrolls wiki and saying, "Hold on a sec, the Thalmor were just as badly beat up as we were at the end of the last war, they'll be easy pickings now!". Not to mention that he has to worry about people getting killed if he gets it wrong, which is another problem you don't have.

The contents of UESP are the result of distilling in-game lore, and the origins and philosophy of the Thalmor aren't exactly closely guarded secrets. Whether the war will be easy or hard is irrelevant: the Thalmor are your real enemy, and your appeasement of their demands is only weakening your position against them. Is any of this in doubt? Is the Empire stronger or weaker with Hammerfell and Skyrim on their side? Since the Thalmor ultimate aim is, at the very least, the total subjugation of mankind under their rule, it's very hard to argue that there's any set of treaty conditions which won't simply be a prelude to further aggression. Take Ondolemar's own words, "There is peace now, and that peace will continue for as long as it suits our needs. But make no mistake, this is not a peace forged out of necessity between rival nations of equal strength. It is more like the calm between storms. And the next storm, I think, will be far deadlier than the last."

So, bottom line, Titus Mede II is either craven, stupid, or probably both, and he's leading his realm to ruin.

[DomaDoma]

Look, I'm all for openly standing on principle and damn the torpedoes, as a private citizen who'll only hurt myself anyway. But if I were a head of state, that'd be a different matter entirely.

I'm absolutely certain that I would have done worse than Titus did. Would I have done better at building up the military ahead of time? Probably not. Would I pay the Dane-geld the first time around? Hell no. Would I volunteer the suggestion that we abandon the city? Equally strong hell no. And at that point, well, the game is up.

I take this tack because you're all for an independent Skyrim. And an independent Skyrim's position, alienated from Imperial supply and the Dunmer, Khajiit and Argonians for good measure, isn't exactly what you'd call strong. Point fingers at Titus all you like for not trading to the rebel nation, but facts are facts. The point, as you said, is to win this.

And everyone in the canonical storyline is missing that point. So, yeah. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKCdSCDdjpw)

Crow, as far as we know from the game, the Empire's foreign intelligence network was completely obliterated in 171, and their domestic intelligence network has a decent force to it but is strictly middling as such organizations go. I like to think that there are Dominion dissidents volunteering information, but still, a poor substitute for the Blades.

Veti: Yup. No question about it, in my view. The ambiguity people seem to hold about the Saadia question is just so strange to me, but then I'm the GITP Resident Hammerfell Partisan, so...

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Re: Saadia - there are actually FOUR possibilites when you think about it:

1.) Kematu is working for the Thalmor, and Saadia worked against them
2.) Saadia is working for the Thalmor, and Kematu is working against them
3.) BOTH Saadia and Kematu work(ed) for the Thalmor, but Saadia is no longer useful and Kematu was sent to tie up loose ends
4.) NEITHER Saadia or Kematu worked for the Thalmor; he's after her for some other reason and both sides just name-drop the Thalmor to win sympathy from the locals.

For myself, Kematu and company don't seem well-informed enough to be Thalmor agents, except possibly at the absolute bottom-most tier. The Thalmor intelligence network was good enough to let them smash the Blades, whereas Kematu...well, witness the common encounter where Kematu's minions accost random Redguard women in the wilderness. They also stick out too much to be useful, bumbling over local laws and getting themselves arrested. This is not how the Thalmor do things. If the Thalmor actually wanted Saadia, they have perfectly competent assassins (like they send after Malborn) and random Justiciar squads (like they send after the player character). Even if they can't just swoop into Whiterun and arrest her with the claim she's a Talos worshipper, there are more efficient ways to get her out of town.


He's not really in a position secure enough to upset those someones with action so overt. And not just the Thalmor. If he dispatched a mass of guards to march past Solitude, to storm the gates of Northwatch Keep, to rescue a Stormcloak, it would look very much like he was weighing in with Ulfric.

Let's not forget that the Jarl of Solitude (well, okay, her advisers) and local law enforcement would probably object to a large, heavily armed force showing up over their border, even if there was no civil war going on!

[NEO|Phyte]

As flawed as the empire's choices may be, Ulfric hasn't exactly made a better show of things.

Not sure if there's actual ingame lore saying as much or if it was just speculation by people, but supposedly the reason the Thalmor have such a burr up their ass about Talos worship is because Ulfric went and made a big deal about "hey guys please don't worship Talos wink wink" until the Thalmor noticed that the ban wasn't exactly being enforced.

From there, talking to people in the Blue Palace tells us that Torygg was sympathetic to Ulfric, and would most likely have gone along with his plan to leave the Empire, but then Ulfric shows up and kills him instead, sparking the civil war mess.

He is a rather strong contender for being everything wrong with Skyrim, and to top it off, neither him nor his captured companions were willing to spare a second to free your hands after Alduin turned up and everyone ducked into a tower.

[DomaDoma]

It's not the reason they have such a burr up their ass about Talos worship, according to out-of-game lore accepted by pretty much everyone (second entry here (http://www.imperial-library.info/content/forum-archives-michael-kirkbride)), but it is pretty clear that Ulfric's more overt defiance of the Concordat did give Skyrim a good bit of grief.

There are, of course, good cases to be made on both sides for whose fault that is, exactly. That's how the Thalmor got their civil war.

[veti]

Re: Saadia - there are actually FOUR possibilites when you think about it:

1.) Kematu is working for the Thalmor, and Saadia worked against them
2.) Saadia is working for the Thalmor, and Kematu is working against them
3.) BOTH Saadia and Kematu work(ed) for the Thalmor, but Saadia is no longer useful and Kematu was sent to tie up loose ends
4.) NEITHER Saadia or Kematu worked for the Thalmor; he's after her for some other reason and both sides just name-drop the Thalmor to win sympathy from the locals.

Yeah, that's all true.

The first time I ran into this quest, my first instinct was to believe Saadia. After all, she's a stereotypical Damsel in Distress, right? This is Skyrim, how much subtlety and misdirection should we expect exactly?

Turns out, more than I gave it credit for.

I think what makes me most inclined to believe Kematu is that - when his minions are combing the land, harrassing innocent Redguard women all over, they're remarkably civil about it. From Thalmor agents, I'd expect them to knock the suspect out, tie her up and march her off to somewhere - convenient, to ask their questions. But the Alik'r just stand about on the road, talking, in perfectly reasonable voices, without even drawing their swords.

Interestingly, from in-game evidence, we can know that both Saadia and Kematu are lying to us on at least one score each. Saadia says that the people looking for her will give up when Kematu is killed, but that's not true. Kematu says that Saadia will be taken back to Hammerfell for trial, but her burial urn appears in Whiterun catacombs.

[Aux-Ash]

The contents of UESP are the result of distilling in-game lore, and the origins and philosophy of the Thalmor aren't exactly closely guarded secrets. Whether the war will be easy or hard is irrelevant: the Thalmor are your real enemy, and your appeasement of their demands is only weakening your position against them. Is any of this in doubt? Is the Empire stronger or weaker with Hammerfell and Skyrim on their side? Since the Thalmor ultimate aim is, at the very least, the total subjugation of mankind under their rule, it's very hard to argue that there's any set of treaty conditions which won't simply be a prelude to further aggression. Take Ondolemar's own words, "There is peace now, and that peace will continue for as long as it suits our needs. But make no mistake, this is not a peace forged out of necessity between rival nations of equal strength. It is more like the calm between storms. And the next storm, I think, will be far deadlier than the last."

So, bottom line, Titus Mede II is either craven, stupid, or probably both, and he's leading his realm to ruin.

Yes, the Thalmor were the real enemy, the concordat is unteneable and another war is coming and yes, we do know that they were spent. But when the White-Gold concordat was signed the empire had just spent it's last strength reclaiming the imperial capital after a full year of aldmeri occupation. Titus Mede II is hardly a fantastic leader for the empire but at the time he really did not have the luxury of choice. He had nothing left with which to bet the future of the empire on.

For all intents and purposes the concordat wasn't a peace treaty, it was a surrender. And remember, the dominion might have been exhausted as well but they still had the strength to keep fighting in Hammerfall for another five years.

The empire hasn't recovered from all that yet. Maybe the dominion hasn't either, but like I and some others said: that's a pretty bold thing to bet on.

[DomaDoma]

And let me highlight that for those of you who haven't listened to me yammer about this topic on the main TES thread:

The initial purpose of the Great War was to conquer Hammerfell.

After coming to a stalemate against the Empire, the Dominion still spent five years in a brutal, scorched-earth, last-ditch effort to conquer Hammerfell.

This is probably the main reason why. (http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Towers) (Non-Oblivion players probably want to skip over the entry on the White-Gold Tower; suffice to say it's of a piece with most of the rest.)

[Ailurus]

Yes, the Thalmor were the real enemy, the concordat is unteneable and another war is coming and yes, we do know that they were spent. But when the White-Gold concordat was signed the empire had just spent it's last strength reclaiming the imperial capital after a full year of aldmeri occupation. Titus Mede II is hardly a fantastic leader for the empire but at the time he really did not have the luxury of choice. He had nothing left with which to bet the future of the empire on.


But what the Empire is doing in Skyrim is the exact opposite of a logical way of preparing for a future war. Everyone says that the empire needs to be 'united', but do you really think that Ulfric is stupid enough to let the Thalmor kill everyone else piecemeal if another invasion is launched (especially if Titus had just let them go)? And how does it benefit men to have the Empire bleeding (more than) a third of it's remaining territory, killing lots of veterans who fought the Thalmor, and making the people who are most opposed to the Thalmor think the Empire doesn't care about their thoughts? At the time of Skyrim, the 'Empire' consists of Skyrim (civil war), High Rock (major cities being sacked if not conquered by pirates, and Forsworn troubles), and Cyrodiil (drug wars, and probably still rebuilding the southern parts from the Thalmor invasion). What in that is worth saving that could not be accomplished by a military agreement to fight the Thalmor if they return rather than fighting a civil war?



For all intents and purposes the concordat wasn't a peace treaty, it was a surrender. And remember, the dominion might have been exhausted as well but they still had the strength to keep fighting in Hammerfall for another five years.

The empire hasn't recovered from all that yet. Maybe the dominion hasn't either, but like I and some others said: that's a pretty bold thing to bet on.

And the Redguards beat them on their own. Granted, deserts do likely constitute a solid home-field advantage but the Thalmor had half a decade to throw their full strength against one province and lost. So, it's logical to assume that they were as bad if not worse off than the Empire was. And, given their fascination with pure blood and past practices of infanticide it's all but guaranteed that it will be a long time before lots of Altmer are ready to go again.

That said, I am not advocating that someone try to launch an invasion of them right away. Trying to go after the Summerset Isles directly is likely an exercise in futility (even Tiber Septim needed the Numidium to do it the first time), and only an idiot goes into Valenwood without lots of preparation. However, all evidence in-game suggests that the Thalmor coalition is very weak, and there's plenty of ways to stir the pot and keep them busy while a long-term solution is built up.


The only reason Elsweyr joined the Dominion was because the Thalmor convinced them that they were responsible for bringing back the moons. If someone finds out what really happened during the Void Nights, or starts convincing Khajiit that the Thalmor lied to them about saving the moons (which is quite probably what happened), then the Thalmor have a huge problem on their hands. You do NOT mess with the moons unless you want lots of angry cat-people coming for you.
The Dominion taking over Valenwood in the first place was accompanied by a civil war, and from what we see there are many Bosmer who are extremely unhappy the Thalmor as is. If there's already Bosmer agents acting as spies for the Blades, starting up a resistance movement (if one doesn't exist already) should be easy enough.
The Thalmor were a minority faction pre-Oblivion Crisis, and they just lost two wars (or one really big two-part war, depending on how you look at it). And a lot of the most fanatical Thalmor are being sent out of the Dominion to police the Empire. Any time a fanatical minority faction is ruling a group there's inevitably lots of resentment at home.


With a little creativity and luck, it should be easy to keep the Thalmor on-edge if not break them apart outright more than long enough to come up with a long-term solution. (Such as, maybe, a Dragonborn booting Titus off the throne, working to bring the Empire back together culturally, start standing up to the Thalmor and work to bring Hammerfall back into the fold).

[Kareeah_Indaga]

And the Redguards beat them on their own. Granted, deserts do likely constitute a solid home-field advantage but the Thalmor had half a decade to throw their full strength against one province and lost. So, it's logical to assume that they were as bad if not worse off than the Empire was. And, given their fascination with pure blood and past practices of infanticide it's all but guaranteed that it will be a long time before lots of Altmer are ready to go again.

I've brought this up before, but what if the Thalmor let the Redguards win? There's a portal in some Ayleid ruins that leads from Grahtwood straight to the Alik'r. If they really wanted Hammerfell RIGHT NOW, rather than wait a little while the non-Dominion nations build up resentment for each other, why didn't they use it? All they need to do is wait for the Crown/Forebear rivalry to start up again, and then they've got Skyrim Civil War 2: Hammerfell edition but with armies instead of Justiciar squads waiting in the wings.

Also, the Dominion doesn't need the small numbers of Altmer to rebound--if they're using the same practices as the First Aldmeri Dominion, the Bosmer are the ones who make up most of their footsoldiers, and they breed more readily. (http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Crafting_Motifs_3:_The_Wood_Elves) Notice the complete lack of Bosmer in those Justiciar patrols we slaughter? We aren't even chipping away at the Dominion's main force.

[The_Jackal]

I've brought this up before, but what if the Thalmor let the Redguards win? There's a portal in some Ayleid ruins that leads from Grahtwood straight to the Alik'r. If they really wanted Hammerfell RIGHT NOW, rather than wait a little while the non-Dominion nations build up resentment for each other, why didn't they use it? All they need to do is wait for the Crown/Forebear rivalry to start up again, and then they've got Skyrim Civil War 2: Hammerfell edition but with armies instead of Justiciar squads waiting in the wings.

Also, the Dominion doesn't need the small numbers of Altmer to rebound--if they're using the same practices as the First Aldmeri Dominion, the Bosmer are the ones who make up most of their footsoldiers, and they breed more readily. (http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Crafting_Motifs_3:_The_Wood_Elves) Notice the complete lack of Bosmer in those Justiciar patrols we slaughter? We aren't even chipping away at the Dominion's main force.

Two problems with that notion. One, flies in the face of the Thalmor's core philosophy, "Mer > Men". Two, your source stipulates that they breed fast for Elves. And the notion that the Dominion can better afford to lose their elite troops than their cannon fodder is also... suspect. But this is all moot. The point isn't whether a war against the Dominion can be won, the point is whether it should be waged. The answer to that question is, for the Empire, unequivocally yes. They have NOTHING to lose that delaying won't lose them with more certainty.

[DomaDoma]

However, all evidence in-game suggests that the Thalmor coalition is very weak, and there's plenty of ways to stir the pot and keep them busy while a long-term solution is built up.


The only reason Elsweyr joined the Dominion was because the Thalmor convinced them that they were responsible for bringing back the moons. If someone finds out what really happened during the Void Nights, or starts convincing Khajiit that the Thalmor lied to them about saving the moons (which is quite probably what happened), then the Thalmor have a huge problem on their hands. You do NOT mess with the moons unless you want lots of angry cat-people coming for you.
The Dominion taking over Valenwood in the first place was accompanied by a civil war, and from what we see there are many Bosmer who are extremely unhappy the Thalmor as is. If there's already Bosmer agents acting as spies for the Blades, starting up a resistance movement (if one doesn't exist already) should be easy enough.
The Thalmor were a minority faction pre-Oblivion Crisis, and they just lost two wars (or one really big two-part war, depending on how you look at it). And a lot of the most fanatical Thalmor are being sent out of the Dominion to police the Empire. Any time a fanatical minority faction is ruling a group there's inevitably lots of resentment at home.


With a little creativity and luck, it should be easy to keep the Thalmor on-edge if not break them apart outright more than long enough to come up with a long-term solution. (Such as, maybe, a Dragonborn booting Titus off the throne, working to bring the Empire back together culturally, start standing up to the Thalmor and work to bring Hammerfall back into the fold).

And let's not forget the rift within the Thalmor themselves: The political Thalmor want to rule the world and subjugate the lesser races under a golden boot. The theological Thalmor want there to be no physical world, and no lesser races to be at odds against in the first place. If the former get wind that the latter are making serious progress toward their goal, I don't think they would like that one bit.

Really, if we're assuming Skyrim happened, divide-and-conquer tactics are the only remaining way to give humanity any kind of chance; the political strength of their own nation-states certainly isn't going to cut it. Fortunately, the Thalmor have had a monopoly on divide-and-conquer for so long that they might well be assuming no one else can even play that game.

[Aux-Ash]

Ailurus:

Yes, what the empire is doing is the complete opposite from gearing up for the next big war. But the Empire hasn't so much chosen this present as much as lost control over the direction in which it is heading. It isn't rearming... it's putting out fires. I agree that the Thalmor and the dominion aren't in any position to launch a war now. But neither is the empire in a position to provoke one. You listed all the problems the empire has, and it can barely handle those threats. What chance could they possibly have against the Thalmor in the state they're currently in?

The Thalmor are bluffing, and the empire probably suspects they are. But they cannot risk being wrong.

I agree though, that the Dominion is more brittle than it seems at first glance. They're not invincible or unstoppable, and most likely they know it too. Hence why they play such a high stakes and aggressive game. They keep pushing the empire because they cannot risk the empire pushing them. If they allow the empire to recover, it's highly unlikely they'll come out the victor.

[veti]

Yes, what the empire is doing is the complete opposite from gearing up for the next big war. But the Empire hasn't so much chosen this present as much as lost control over the direction in which it is heading. It isn't rearming... it's putting out fires.

By the time-honoured technique of spraying them with paraffin, perhaps? There wouldn't be a fire in Skyrim, but for the Empire muscling in on its internal politics.


I agree that the Thalmor and the dominion aren't in any position to launch a war now. But neither is the empire in a position to provoke one. You listed all the problems the empire has, and it can barely handle those threats. What chance could they possibly have against the Thalmor in the state they're currently in?

When your own country is fractious and squabbling, that's the perfect time to provoke a war with a common enemy. If there's anything that could unite the three remaining provinces of the Empire, and probably get Hammerfell back on side (not back into the Empire, but into at least a state of co-operation with it), it's war with the Dominion.


The Thalmor are bluffing, and the empire probably suspects they are. But they cannot risk being wrong.

Quite the opposite, I think. They must risk being wrong. Their choices aren't between war and peace, they're between "possible defeat now" and "certain defeat later". They're standing on a sinking ship, and refusing to get into the lifeboat on the grounds that they can't be sure it doesn't have a hole in it. Well, maybe it does and maybe it doesn't, but you know for damnsure that this tub has one, so what have you got to lose?

[DomaDoma]

Quite the opposite, I think. They must risk being wrong. Their choices aren't between war and peace, they're between "possible defeat now" and "certain defeat later". They're standing on a sinking ship, and refusing to get into the lifeboat on the grounds that they can't be sure it doesn't have a hole in it. Well, maybe it does and maybe it doesn't, but you know for damnsure that this tub has one, so what have you got to lose?

A few years' worth of not having to think about such dreadful things, likely. Seems to be how it works in the real world.

No, you're absolutely right. I am very sorry for any wavering I have made on this point.

[Admiral Squish]

Skyrim is the biggest game my computer can handle these days, so I've been getting pretty involved in it.

I feel like the Empire gets painted in a very negative light right off the bat. People are naturally inclined to root for the underdog, and you really have to look to find the good side of the empire and the bad side of the stormcloaks. You have this long monologue from the stormcloak guy painting him as human, and then empire tries to have you executed for just crossing the border. Plus, Helgen Keep has a torture chamber. Come on, that's a little anvilicious. Personally, I always end up going with the stormcloaks in the first part, mostly because imperial light armor has a good value/weight ratio and stormcloak armor is basically worthless, but also because you can loot heavy armor from the imperials. I will admit, one's impression of the stormcloaks is soured upon arriving in Windhelm and seeing the blatant discrimination against dark elves, and Ulfric could stand to be a lot more charismatic than gruff. Still, I think almost everyone ends up running with the stormcloaks on their first playthrough.
I wish there was a little more race-based material in the game, particularly involving the conflict. Like, maybe a high elf would have to do an extra quest to prove they're not thalmor if they want to join the stormcloaks/blades, or maybe they could actually join the thalmor? Maybe stormcloaks could make disparaging remarks about non-nords, or at least mer/beast races? Maybe there could actually be some orc material beyond a convenient ebony mine, a couple followers, and a daedric artifact quest (seriously, orcs are awesome and all I want to do is take over a stronghold, is that too much to ask)?

I do think that the Empire has also chosen exactly the wrong way to unite its provinces for the coming fight. They say that they need to be unified to stand up against the Dominion, but is fighting a civil war, standing by while the thalmor inquisitors run amok, and occupying Skyrim really the best way to encourage the people there to join your cause, to fight and die for you?

[Aux-Ash]

By the time-honoured technique of spraying them with paraffin, perhaps? There wouldn't be a fire in Skyrim, but for the Empire muscling in on its internal politics.

I'd actually argue that yes, it would. The skyrim civil war isn't a result of the White-Gold concordat alone. It's roots is actually in the Forsworn uprising. This did far more to hurt the reputation of the empire in the eyes of the Nords than the treaty ever did. Why? Because the empire couldn't stop a breton rabble from taking the capitol of Skyrim. It showed all nords how increadibly weak the empire was that point.

This is also what gave Ulfric the reputation he needed to begin the rebellion in the first place. And... ironically... led to the Markarth incident... when the Thalmor pressured the empire to enforce the ban on the worship of Talos (which they hadn't enforced prior to that).

There's no doubt that the response to the Markarth incident did nothing to endear the nords to the regime of Titus Mede II. And I'd argue it's the single greatest factor in what led to the civil war as this is what made an enemy of Ulfric and a lot of nords. But... this was a response to Ulfric challenging the empire. He issued the challenge and they responded. Imprisoning him and enforced the treaty.

Finally... I suspect that Ulfric was always going to do this. He isn't a innocent little flower that just happened to have his favourite god banned. He's a cunning warlord who always was going to stir up trouble. He defied the White-Gold Concordat at the first chance he got, despite it wasn't enforced in Skyrim (yet). He killed Torygg, a young man who basically didn't stand a chance... for no reason at all except to show Skyrim that the high king couldn't even defend himself. Using him as a symbol of the empire, despite Torygg being chosen by the Skyrim jarls (personal theory: Ulfric wanted to be high king and was envious)

I'm not tring to say the empire and Titus Mede II are innocent victims in all of this. They aren't. But there was always going to be trouble in Skyrim. That's why the Thalmor let Ulfric "escape" in the first place.


so what have you got to lose?

Just the empire, which has stood for thousands of years, and the lives of thousands of subjects. I'm sure history would remember the regime as "at least they tried" and not at all like the people that destroyed the empire. No biggie, right? :smalltongue:


I do think that the Empire has also chosen exactly the wrong way to unite its provinces for the coming fight. They say that they need to be unified to stand up against the Dominion, but is fighting a civil war, standing by while the thalmor inquisitors run amok, and occupying Skyrim really the best way to encourage the people there to join your cause, to fight and die for you?

You do realise that the alternative is letting Skyrim go (and I'm sure no Breton would see that an get any ideas. :smallwink:), right? Which is still going to happen with considerable amounts of spilled blood among the nords. The current state of affairs locked themselves into place years ago.

[Mando Knight]

Because the empire couldn't stop a breton rabble from taking the capitol of Skyrim. It showed all nords how increadibly weak the empire was that point.

Istlod, Jarl of Solitude (and Torygg's father) was High King at the time Ulfric retook Markarth (the city that fell to the Reachmen) for Igmund's father. Whether he was High King before then is sketchy, depending on how long Torygg ruled before Ulfric killed him: Istlod ruled for 25 years until his death, Markarth was retaken in 4E 176, and the game begins in 4E 201.

[Admiral Squish]

I'm just saying, maybe attempt some diplomacy first. Or assassination, should that fail. Or, should that fail, entertain some more radical alternatives, like letting it go, but making sure you part on half-decent terms so you can ally with them against the Thalmor later. If the empire decides to let it go, can the dominion really say they can't? Fighting a civil war is exactly what the dominion wants, because it will deplete both forces, and further, drive a wedge between them so they won't be on good terms when the war with the dominion kicks off again. What good does holding Skyrim do if, when the dust clears, you can't get anything useful out of it?

[DomaDoma]

Just the empire, which has stood for thousands of years, and the lives of thousands of subjects. I'm sure history would remember the regime as "at least they tried" and not at all like the people that destroyed the empire. No biggie, right? :smalltongue:

Better than being remembered as the ruler/council that just let the Empire die without making a fight of it. Which, as Veti said, is the certain ending the Empire is sliding toward through its inaction. (If there were an ideal time to take that gamble and break the Concordat, it would have been after the Second Treaty of Stros M'kai. Pretty clear at that point that the Thalmor aren't in any condition to retaliate in force.)

Of course, given what we know about the Dominion, the idea of being "remembered by history" is making serious assumptions, even leaving the theological side out of it.

[Crow]

He killed Torygg, a young man who basically didn't stand a chance... for no reason at all except to show Skyrim that the high king couldn't even defend himself.

Ulfric challenged Torygg to single combat, which was an accepted part of the nords' old traditions, to which Torygg accepted. Where things went sideways was when Ulfric used the voice to defeat Torygg. There is a good chance that had Ulfric not 'cheated', most of the Jarls would have gone along with the outcome.

[Sharoth]

Ulfric is a jerk who has power. I agree with some of what he has said, but he was willing to work with the Thalmor, so he looses all respect from my character.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Two problems with that notion. One, flies in the face of the Thalmor's core philosophy, "Mer > Men".

How so? By leaving Hammerfell be, look how much resentment was built up in the Empire! 'Well, Hammerfell did it, we totally could have won too if that Emperor (who pulled off a tricky tactical maneuver with the Imperial City that no one thought would work) hadn't given up. Never mind we never would have backed him if he wanted to continue the war right then and there, this is totally his fault!' Don't forget, patience is another thing the Dominion is very, very good with. They've been building this up since at least the Oblivion Crisis, a few more decades is nothing.


Two, your source stipulates that they breed fast for Elves. And the notion that the Dominion can better afford to lose their elite troops than their cannon fodder is also... suspect.

Who says those Justiciars are elite troops? I guarantee you if they were truly valued by the Dominion they wouldn't be slogging around a freezing tundra hunting Talos worshippers. They'd be in a cushy embassy, like Elenwen, pulling strings from there. Or back in Summerset, plotting doom. Remember the 'foot-sloggers' griping during Diplomatic Immunity? The Dominion doesn't actually care if a bunch of those guys die. If they're skilled/useful/ or otherwise competent enough to be worth keeping, they won't get killed and if they aren't, who cares? Obviously their bloodlines were sub-optimal, and now they won't persist to dilute the purity and power of the rest of the Altmer race. This is why the Dominion is dangerous.


I feel like the Empire gets painted in a very negative light right off the bat. People are naturally inclined to root for the underdog, and you really have to look to find the good side of the empire and the bad side of the stormcloaks. You have this long monologue from the stormcloak guy painting him as human, and then empire tries to have you executed for just crossing the border. Plus, Helgen Keep has a torture chamber. Come on, that's a little anvilicious.

I think, from a gameplay perspective, the game devs did that because otherwise people who played the previous games would automatically side with the Empire. After all, we've sided with them in the last two, why wouldn't we? This gives a reason why.

[Crow]

Ulfric is a jerk who has power. I agree with some of what he has said, but he was willing to work with the Thalmor, so he looses all respect from my character.

He wasn't working with the Thalmor; he was being manipulated/used by the Thalmor. Ulfric wasn't knowingly advancing the Thalmor's goals.

[Aeson]

Ulfric challenged Torygg to single combat, which was an accepted part of the nords' old traditions, to which Torygg accepted. Where things went sideways was when Ulfric used the voice to defeat Torygg. There is a good chance that had Ulfric not 'cheated', most of the Jarls would have gone along with the outcome.
One thing to remember: just because it's an accepted part of the old traditions doesn't make it honorable, even by the standards of the old tradtions. It's not at all uncommon to have "unwritten" rules about what constitutes honorable behavior, and one of those is quite often that it is dishonorable to issue a challenge that the challenged party has no reasonable chance of winning or viable way to refuse while maintaining their own honor. Ulfric challenging Torygg certainly sounds like a case where Torygg cannot refuse (due to loss of face) and also cannot reasonably be expected to win even without Ulfric using the Voice (due to greatly differing levels of skill and experience). Moreover, a sudden, unexpected challenge such as Ulfric's would only have swung the balance further in Ulfric's favor; Ulfric would have come prepared for a fight whereas Torygg, who would probably have been the loser even had he had forewarning of the challenge, would likely not have been ready for a fight, particularly not against a respected and trusted fellow nobleman who was welcomed into the hall with open arms.

Also, speaking as someone who's never played Skyrim, it would seem to me as though if Ulfric's goal were truly an independent Skyrim, convincing Torygg to declare for independence would be a far better starting point for the rebellion than killing Torygg off and declaring himself High King. Torygg presumably had the support of at least a plurality of the influential people of Skyrim at the time of the moot that selected him as High King, and as he is the legally-appointed High King under modern conventions, having his support makes it easier for people on the fence about the independence question to come down on the side of independence (because they'd be supporting their legally-appointed ruler, rather than opposing him or even being in rebellion against him). Moreover, that moot is presumably not that far in the past as Torygg is still fairly young, and so those who supported him for the High Kingship may find withdrawing their support suddenly on the question of independence problematic.

Instead, Ulfric chooses to override the moot's decision by force (and, arguably, treachery; Torygg was not expecting to be challenged to a fight to the death when Ulfric came to his hall, and so welcomed Ulfric as a friend, whereas Ulfric, who to my understanding was already the likely victor of any duel between the two, came prepared for a fight and with the intention of killing his legally-appointed liege) without first attempting diplomacy to win Torygg over to his side - and the primary decision that he overrode may well have been a decision in favor of Torygg over Ulfric as the next High King of Skyrim, depending on what the criteria for candidacy for the High Kingship are. Accepted to be within the bounds of honorable behavior set by ancient tradition or not, Ulfric acted in defiance of Skyrim's modern conventions and legal customs. Then, having removed the legally-appointed High King of Skyrim and given himself a claim to the High Kingship in accordance with ancient custom, at least by his account, Ulfric starts a rebellion cloaked in the rhetoric of Nordic nationalism and independence, which conveniently enough is likely to place him on the throne of Skyrim should it succeed, as well as remove from power many of those who most opposed his kingship and replace them people who owe Ulfric their positions. This looks like a thinly-veiled power grab, at least to me; whether or not Ulfric truly believes in Nordic nationalism and the independence of Skyrim is largely irrelevant, as he is going about pursuing it in the way most beneficial to him rather than in the way most likely to succeed.

[Crow]

I think everybody is giving Torygg too little credit (and Ulfric too much). He may be young, but fighting is a young man's game. He was certainly seen as formidable, strong, and respectable enoung to be chosen by the jarls to be their High King. It is implied that Ulfric used the voice because he wouldn't have defeated Torygg otherwise. If Ulfric would have won anyways, why use the voice, a tactic that could be seen as dishonorable, and create the extra trouble?

The other way you can go with this is that Torygg was weak; and the jarls selected him specifically because he would be easy to manipulate. Perhaps being weak and easy to manipulate is why the empire supported him. This could be likely; but if it is the case, actually makes Ulfric's case stronger.

[DomaDoma]

Kareeah, while the Thalmor ARE undeniably decades-patient, I don't think they'd whiff a victory if they could, instead, simply win. Reducing half a continent to molten glass or magical wastes or whatever the southern half of Hammerfell now looks like, and THEN fleeing, would be supreme dedication to whiffing.

Besides - I'm making assumptions about ESO here and feel free to correct me - this portal on which your theory hinges was probably not what you'd call common knowledge as of the Second Era; we're hinging on the Redguards having completely forgotten about it; and the Bosmer, simply because they live in a freaking jungle, could very well have forgotten about it almost as quickly as the Men did. In our hypothetical Elder Scrolls VI, the Thalmor will of course have discovered this portal, but the reason they didn't use it in the war against Hammerfell could be that they just didn't know about it at the time.

[Winter_Wolf]

The thing about Ulfric Stormcloak is that he's an egomaniac. Repeatedly we're told that Torygg would have (probably to almost certainly) supported Ulfric's call to secede from the Empire. Also I suspect Ulfric despised the thought of a fair fight with Torygg. If it were fair, he might've actually lost. But y'know, Art of War 101: win first then fight. Too bad he didn't plan far enough ahead to circumvent the whole civil war. Torygg's misfortune was being young in an arena (politics) where old age and treachery are virtues for longevity and success.

[Crow]

The thing about Ulfric Stormcloak is that he's an egomaniac. Repeatedly we're told that Torygg would have (probably to almost certainly) supported Ulfric's call to secede from the Empire. Also I suspect Ulfric despised the thought of a fair fight with Torygg. If it were fair, he might've actually lost. But y'know, Art of War 101: win first then fight. Too bad he didn't plan far enough ahead to circumvent the whole civil war. Torygg's misfortune was being young in an arena (politics) where old age and treachery are virtues for longevity and success.

I'd agree with this. However to paint Torygg as some sort of helpless dove as some want to do is a bit disingenuous.

I think Ulfric is hijacking the cause as a vehicle for personal aggrandizement and to push some of his own twisted beliefs. I don't however think that this means the original cause was completely wrong to begin with.

[Eldan]

Just the empire, which has stood for thousands of years, and the lives of thousands of subjects. I'm sure history would remember the regime as "at least they tried" and not at all like the people that destroyed the empire. No biggie, right? :smalltongue:

Just a point of lore here, but the Empire is far from thousands of year old.

Cuhlecain of Falkreath started his wars around 2E852 and captured the Imperial City and united Cyrodiil in 2E854. Tiber Septim took the throne from him just after the city was taken.

It then took 40 years of war to conquer the rest of Tamriel, so the Empire only became continental in 2E896 when Alinor surrendered. After that comes 3E0.

Uriel Septim VII died in 3E433. That officially ends the third era.

Skryim takes place in 4E201. So, very generally counting, from the beginning of the Tiber Wars to Skyrim, it's 678 years. For only 475 of that, there were Septim Emperors. And for only 433 of those, the Empire covered the continent, not counting civil wars.

The second Empire (the Reman Empire) only lasted for about 600 years, too, and for more than half of that, the effective rulers were not humans, but Akaviri.

The Alessian Empire (the first Empire) lasted quite a bit longer than that, though.

[Winter_Wolf]

I'd agree with this. However to paint Torygg as some sort of helpless dove as some want to do is a bit disingenuous.

I think Ulfric is hijacking the cause as a vehicle for personal aggrandizement and to push some of his own twisted beliefs. I don't however think that this means the original cause was completely wrong to begin with.

I'd say we're in agreement. Ulfric basically cheated by using the thu'um, but got away with it on the technicality that it's part of longstanding Nord tradition. How far ahead did he need to plan, since it's established he learned from the Greybeards but not that he's got Dragonborn blood? I vaguely recall that mortals have to spend a really long time to use Voice. An argument could be made for premeditated murder. But you know, basically I supported Ulfric's cause, just not the guy in charge.

[factotum]

I'd say we're in agreement. Ulfric basically cheated by using the thu'um, but got away with it on the technicality that it's part of longstanding Nord tradition.

I don't think he *did* get away with it--if he had, he'd be High King of Skyrim at the beginning of the game. The jarls didn't follow tradition and elect him as such *because* he used such a dishonorable way to win his duel with Torygg.

[Grim Portent]

I'd say we're in agreement. Ulfric basically cheated by using the thu'um, but got away with it on the technicality that it's part of longstanding Nord tradition. How far ahead did he need to plan, since it's established he learned from the Greybeards but not that he's got Dragonborn blood? I vaguely recall that mortals have to spend a really long time to use Voice. An argument could be made for premeditated murder. But you know, basically I supported Ulfric's cause, just not the guy in charge.

He didn't learn the Thu'um in order to win a duel more easily. When he was a boy he was a novice Greybeard, trying to follow their path of spiritual and religious meditation. He left when the Great War started and he felt it was his duty to try and defend the Empire.

[veti]

I think everybody is giving Torygg too little credit (and Ulfric too much). He may be young, but fighting is a young man's game. He was certainly seen as formidable, strong, and respectable enoung to be chosen by the jarls to be their High King. It is implied that Ulfric used the voice because he wouldn't have defeated Torygg otherwise. If Ulfric would have won anyways, why use the voice, a tactic that could be seen as dishonorable, and create the extra trouble?

I think everyone gives Torygg too much credit. The trouble is, all the first-hand information we get about him comes from a tainted source - Elisif's court, where no-one will say anything but flattering things about him for obvious reasons.

When we're told "Torygg would probably have listened to Ulfric", I'm thinking "oh yeah? I've had bosses who 'listened' like that". Torygg was an accomplished politician, skilled enough to win the throne, but nothing anyone says about him suggests a man of strength and conviction. He wasn't all that young - he was already high king at the time of the Markarth Incident, which was 24 years ago - but he'd never bothered to make the pilgrimage to High Hrothgar and learn anything from the Greybeards himself. (As Ulfric, and Baalgruf, that we know of, both had.)

After Elisif, Torygg's biggest fan must have been Sybille Stentor. And when you ask her why Torygg accepted Ulfric's challenge, she has this to say:

By Nord custom, once the challenge was issued in court, Torygg had no choice but to accept. Had he not, Ulfric would have had cause to call a new moot and a new vote for High King.

Reading through the emotion to get at the factual content here, we can see: Torygg could have refused the challenge, and all that would have followed would have been a new moot. Which is to say, the same end result as his losing the challenge. Which suggests, to me, that Torygg's acceptance of the challenge was nothing to do with honour or duty or pride: he thought he could win. If he had a stomach for open debate and "due process" and all those civilised imperial ways, he absolutely could have gone that way and he'd have had his chance to persuade the jarls to do it his way. But he didn't want that: he wanted to fight. I have no sympathy.

[Divayth Fyr]

Torygg was an accomplished politician, skilled enough to win the throne, but nothing anyone says about him suggests a man of strength and conviction. He wasn't all that young - he was already high king at the time of the Markarth Incident, which was 24 years ago
He was? Can't remember that being mentioned.


Reading through the emotion to get at the factual content here, we can see: Torygg could have refused the challenge, and all that would have followed would have been a new moot. Which is to say, the same end result as his losing the challenge. Which suggests, to me, that Torygg's acceptance of the challenge was nothing to do with honour or duty or pride: he thought he could win. If he had a stomach for open debate and "due process" and all those civilised imperial ways, he absolutely could have gone that way and he'd have had his chance to persuade the jarls to do it his way. But he didn't want that: he wanted to fight. I have no sympathy.
What little dialogue Torygg has in Sovngarde suggests he did care about honor and such values - while Ulfric openly claims that "Torygg was merely a message to the other Jarls."

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Kareeah, while the Thalmor ARE undeniably decades-patient, I don't think they'd whiff a victory if they could, instead, simply win. Reducing half a continent to molten glass or magical wastes or whatever the southern half of Hammerfell now looks like, and THEN fleeing, would be supreme dedication to whiffing.

Okay, fair point.


Besides - I'm making assumptions about ESO here and feel free to correct me - this portal on which your theory hinges was probably not what you'd call common knowledge as of the Second Era; we're hinging on the Redguards having completely forgotten about it; and the Bosmer, simply because they live in a freaking jungle, could very well have forgotten about it almost as quickly as the Men did. In our hypothetical Elder Scrolls VI, the Thalmor will of course have discovered this portal, but the reason they didn't use it in the war against Hammerfell could be that they just didn't know about it at the time.

Here's some background then: the ruins in question are Salas En (http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Salas_En) (Alik'r Desert) and Ne Salas (http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Ne_Salas) (Grahtwood).

It's been a while since I did the Dominion-side quest for this event (there's a quest for both factions involved), but near as I can tell what happens is this:

Lady Laurent is a member of the Mage's Guild and amateur archaeologist. She and her assistants are poking around in Salas En on the Covenant side. They accidentally activate the portal, her manservant wanders through and encounters a Dominion patrol. They, having just encountered a random Breton in the middle of Grahtwood where he has no business being, give chase and find the portal when he goes back through it. Both sides (Dominion and Covenant) then try to stage minor invasions with this newly-discovered passage into enemy territory before shutting the portal down.

And the local Bosmer might forget, but remember the Altmer have something of an addiction to paperwork. Which means the Thalmor have a record of it somewhere.

[Aux-Ash]

Eldan: Fair enough, my mistake.


he was already high king at the time of the Markarth Incident, which was 24 years ago - but he'd never bothered to make the pilgrimage to High Hrothgar and learn anything from the Greybeards himself.

Ah, no. That was Torygg's father Istlod. Torygg had been voted king mere months or perhaps just weeks before the duel with Ulfric.


Reading through the emotion to get at the factual content here, we can see: Torygg could have refused the challenge, and all that would have followed would have been a new moot. Which is to say, the same end result as his losing the challenge. Which suggests, to me, that Torygg's acceptance of the challenge was nothing to do with honour or duty or pride: he thought he could win. If he had a stomach for open debate and "due process" and all those civilised imperial ways, he absolutely could have gone that way and he'd have had his chance to persuade the jarls to do it his way. But he didn't want that: he wanted to fight. I have no sympathy.

I think you underestimate how huge impact honour can play. Even if you have a legal way to refuse a challenge, honour might very well dictate you answer it. If Torygg had refused the duel, he'd have shamed himself in front of Ulfric, his court, his wife and all of Skyrim. All of Skyrim would have seen him as a coward and a weakling and they'd never accept him as king after that. Answering was the only honourable way to go forward. Anything else would have been to give up his position.
I'd even hazard a guess that has Torygg done just that, he'd be forced to vote Ulfric as high king after that since "if he didn't think he was in the right then why did he refuse the challenge?"

You might be right that Torygg may have wanted to fight. It's possible. But refusing it, while probably legal, was in matters of honour an impossibility.

And as we see... honour is an important facet of Skyrim politics. As it's precisely why Ulfric hasn't been elected High King (or even called a high moot, which is his right). All his opponents consider him rather dishonourable.
It's also rather telling that when Ulfric and his allies defend the duel, they do so on the grounds that it was permissable or neccessary. Not that it was honourable.

[Winter_Wolf]

I don't think he *did* get away with it--if he had, he'd be High King of Skyrim at the beginning of the game. The jarls didn't follow tradition and elect him as such *because* he used such a dishonorable way to win his duel with Torygg.
Fair enough; guess I figured because he wasn't executed on the spot, he got away with it. Just as well, everyone was probably shocked, unsure what the protocol was (your king was murdered in an accepted duel...hm this was not covered in training), and Roggvir lost his head over it. Actually, could someone refresh me, did Ulfric really just stroll out of the city gates afterward or did he carve a bit of a path to it? It's been ages since I've even blinked in the direction of Skyrim's civil war or main quest.


He didn't learn the Thu'um in order to win a duel more easily. When he was a boy he was a novice Greybeard, trying to follow their path of spiritual and religious meditation. He left when the Great War started and he felt it was his duty to try and defend the Empire.

Well, there I go, then. Was kind of hazy on the whole Ulfric tried to hang with the Greybeards but in the end didn't. Didn't seem to have the temperament for it, did he? Pretty gloomy bunch, them.

[Aux-Ash]

Actually, could someone refresh me, did Ulfric really just stroll out of the city gates afterward or did he carve a bit of a path to it? It's been ages since I've even blinked in the direction of Skyrim's civil war or main quest.

My understanding is that he essentially snuck out of the city. Roggvir opened the gates for him, against the wishes of the Solitude court (which warrants the question why the gates were closed in the first place, but I can find no explanation for this. It could be normal procedure). I doubt there was a bloodbath involved however, we'd have learned of it if there was.

[factotum]

(which warrants the question why the gates were closed in the first place, but I can find no explanation for this. It could be normal procedure).

Surely it could be as simple as a message being sent to the gate guards "Ulfric just killed the High King, shut the gates and make sure he doesn't leave"?

[Aeson]

Surely it could be as simple as a message being sent to the gate guards "Ulfric just killed the High King, shut the gates and make sure he doesn't leave"?
I'd tend to expect that Ulfric left the palace and city as rapidly as he could manage; it's better for him to get out quickly, as that lessens the chances that the guards and people he encounters will know what he's done and why he's leaving, and so are less likely to oppose his passage. Plus, among the people in the palace there's probably some degree of confusion about what to do about what has happened, a bit of shock and the resultant organizational paralysis, and maybe even a bit of confusion over what exactly has happened among people who weren't in the room where Ulfric killed the High King. Most likely, in my opinion, some kind of general alarm went up (e.g. bells ringing or horns blowing), and the gates were sealed in response to that. Later, when things are more under control and the people up at the palace are more organized, they can send out messengers with specifics about the situation to the guards at the gate, but early on it's just important that they get the gates closed fast, sealing Ulfric within the city; they can hunt him down later, and they also want a little bit of time to figure out what they're going to do about informing the public that the High King is dead and that Ulfric killed him so that they can present a unified front to the public and keep things relatively calm while decisions about who will succeed Torygg and how are made. Ulfric shows up at the gates after the general alarm seals the gates but before any specifics have gone out to at least the gate guards and demands to be let out, and the gate guards decide that permitting the passage of an important, influential, and respected nobleman who probably has the connections to ruin their careers (bad assignments, denied promotions, etc) is less bad for them than whatever is going to happen when their superiors find out that they didn't quite completely seal the city when the general alarm went up. This probably wouldn't have been the worst decision they could make, had preventing Ulfric from departing the city not been the reason that the gates were to be sealed, but since the goal of sealing the gates was preventing Ulfric's escape they get into a lot of hot water over the incident.

An alternative to there being any kind of alarm raised (messengers, horns, bells, rockets, magic, whatever) is that the killing of the High King occurred late in the day and the city gates were closed for the night. Not having played Skyrim, I can't say if this is the case or not within the game, but in the real world it wasn't exactly abnormal for the gates of walled cities to normally be closed after a certain time of night and only reopened at some point in the morning, unless someone with enough importance came by to have the gates opened at an unusual hour; it's still not exactly unusual for places like international border crossings to be open only between certain times of the day. The gate guard gets into a lot of trouble because he let out the High King's killer, even though under normal circumstances letting a high-ranking nobleman like Ulfric leave the city after the gates were closed to the public wouldn't have caused much of an issue and the guy had no real way of knowing what Ulfric had done.

[Crow]

What shout did Ulfric use to "shout (Torygg) apart"?

Any guesses? My FusRohDah never shouted anyone apart.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

What shout did Ulfric use to "shout (Torygg) apart"?

Any guesses? My FusRohDah never shouted anyone apart.

It was in fact Unrelenting Force. (He only has two; that and the Disarm Shout.) Talk to the man directly on the subject and he says:


"Not entirely true, though not entirely false either. Any Nord can learn the Way of the Voice by studying with the Greybeards, given enough ambition and dedication. My shouting Torygg to the ground proved he had neither. However, it was my sword piercing his heart that killed him.

So, he just knocked Torygg over. The 'shouting him to pieces' bit seems to be exaggeration after the fact.

[Winter_Wolf]

"Shouted him to pieces!" Makes for a more dramatic story than "shouted and knocked him down, then ran him through with a blade." Plus if you've ever been subjected to the game "telephone" you know that accuracy deteriorates quite rapidly in retelling. A lot of the npcs seem to enjoy hyperbole. Just like a lot of people in real life.

Aside: Not relevant to Ulfric but isn't there some Black Book of Hermaerus Mora that turns fus ro dah into a literal shouting to pieces power (disintegration effect)? I suspect because at least a couple people said, "damn I wanna shout someone to pieces, make it happen!"

[Eldan]

It wouldn't be entirely out of place in the fluff. There's some old nordic chieftains mentioned who did stuff like explode city walls with their voice during sieges.

[The_Jackal]

I'd say we're in agreement. Ulfric basically cheated by using the thu'um, but got away with it on the technicality that it's part of longstanding Nord tradition. How far ahead did he need to plan, since it's established he learned from the Greybeards but not that he's got Dragonborn blood? I vaguely recall that mortals have to spend a really long time to use Voice. An argument could be made for premeditated murder. But you know, basically I supported Ulfric's cause, just not the guy in charge.

I don't understand how using the shout is tantamount to cheating. Is there an according-to-hoyle rulebook for Nord duelling? Somehow I very much doubt that's the case, and the people leveling the 'cheating' accusation at Ulfric are merely trying to discredit his victory, since they can't very well proclaim that Torygg won the duel. My attitude is that when you accepted a duel to the death, you're pretty much in 'no holds barred' territory, and you can't very complain that 'the manner in which I was killed wasn't gentlemanly'.

[druid91]

I don't understand how using the shout is tantamount to cheating. Is there an according-to-hoyle rulebook for Nord duelling? Somehow I very much doubt that's the case, and the people leveling the 'cheating' accusation at Ulfric are merely trying to discredit his victory, since they can't very well proclaim that Torygg won the duel. My attitude is that when you accepted a duel to the death, you're pretty much in 'no holds barred' territory, and you can't very complain that 'the manner in which I was killed wasn't gentlemanly'.

Well the nords are generally very grumpy when it comes to magic. The issue here is that the Thu'um is their magic. It's not about being a milk drinking dress wearing southerner. It's about being awesome enough that just you YELLING at someone can physically harm them.

[Crow]

Words hurt, you guys.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

I don't understand how using the shout is tantamount to cheating. Is there an according-to-hoyle rulebook for Nord duelling? Somehow I very much doubt that's the case, and the people leveling the 'cheating' accusation at Ulfric are merely trying to discredit his victory, since they can't very well proclaim that Torygg won the duel. My attitude is that when you accepted a duel to the death, you're pretty much in 'no holds barred' territory, and you can't very complain that 'the manner in which I was killed wasn't gentlemanly'.

That depends on the terms of the duel; agreeing to a duel with swords and then using a pistol would be cheating, duel to the death or not. The 'to the death' part just precludes a rematch if that happens. :smallwink:

Ulfric used something Torygg had no access to and no reasonable way of getting access to in time for their fight. And let's not forget, the Greybeards he learned that Shout from teach that the Voice should only be used to praise the gods and for True Need. Beating someone half his level of experience in a fight he might have been able to win with just his sword is neither.

[The_Jackal]

Well the nords are generally very grumpy when it comes to magic. The issue here is that the Thu'um is their magic. It's not about being a milk drinking dress wearing southerner. It's about being awesome enough that just you YELLING at someone can physically harm them.

Precisely, also, isn't their King supposed to be descended from the Dragonborn?


That depends on the terms of the duel; agreeing to a duel with swords and then using a pistol would be cheating, duel to the death or not. The 'to the death' part just precludes a rematch if that happens. :smallwink:

Ulfric used something Torygg had no access to and no reasonable way of getting access to in time for their fight. And let's not forget, the Greybeards he learned that Shout from teach that the Voice should only be used to praise the gods and for True Need. Beating someone half his level of experience in a fight he might have been able to win with just his sword is neither.

Which would make sense if you're talking about Ulfric using a cannon or a horse or something, but we're talking about the result of skill and talent. How that's different from just being a better fighter than him is escaping me, somewhat. Ulfric didn't challenge Torygg with the condition that he'd beat him with one arm tied behind is back. Also, what the Greybeards teach isn't exactly what I would call practical or canonical or even useful. If you're going to agree to the Greybeards way of doing things, then you sit back and let Alduin devour Tamriel. So, if it's all the same to you, I'm not going to taking their philosophy that seriously.

[veti]

And let's not forget, the Greybeards he learned that Shout from teach that the Voice should only be used to praise the gods and for True Need.

Which rather raises the question, why all the Shouts are so damn' destructive? What's the draconic for "Flowers/Scent/Pretty", or "Love/Peace/Harmony", or even "Gods/Truth/Worship"? Instead, it's all "force" this and "fire" that and "rend the soul from the body" of the other.

[Mando Knight]

Precisely, also, isn't their King supposed to be descended from the Dragonborn?

The Emperors ruling from Cyrodiil were Dragonborn (http://uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Dragonborn) (blessed by Akatosh (http://uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Trials_of_St._Alessia) through his covenant with St. Alessia in the First Era), not the High Kings of Skyrim, and that ended with the Oblivion Crisis, around two hundred years before Ulfric slew Torygg (as the events of Oblivion mark the transition from the Third Era into the Fourth).

As shown by Pelagius "The Mad" Septim, there were those who held both titles at least during the Third Era, but the title of Skyrim's High King is not involved with Akatosh's Dragonborn covenant.

[factotum]

Which rather raises the question, why all the Shouts are so damn' destructive? What's the draconic for "Flowers/Scent/Pretty", or "Love/Peace/Harmony", or even "Gods/Truth/Worship"? Instead, it's all "force" this and "fire" that and "rend the soul from the body" of the other.

Er...dragons, remember? The Greybeards didn't invent the language or the Thu'um, they got it from bloody great lizards who probably aren't much into philosophical discussions with what were their slaves at the time it was learned.

[Formless Entity]

Here's a very simple argument for you: the Imperials tried to take your head off for crossing a border... and because an officer was like "well yeah they're not on the list but I want this over with so I can take my Mandatory Imperium Breaktime, so kill them." I dunno about you but that didn't get on MY good side.

So you are saying that the cause of the Imperials is bad because of one crooked officer?

By that logic we should discount all of the stormcloaks because a sizeable portion of them are racist.

[Formless Entity]

Talos is real, and actually is a god.


Where is there evidence of Talos actually being a god?

Last I checked, the only aedra we ever have proof of existing in the games is Akatosh because of the oblivion crisis.

[Formless Entity]

Personally I think that ideally there should be a coalition of the different provinces and have them all be independent to a great degree. With no province having more influence than the other.

Currently however, the main issue is the issue of the Thalmor. Disregarding the issue of whether Talos is truly an Aedra or not, it is still wrong to deny someone's autonomy by denying that person their choice to religion.

More so their ideology that the high elves are the closest relation to the Ehlnofey is both incorrect and dangerous.

Ideally the oppressive Thalmor government should be overthrown and let the high elves be free to govern again.

From their a collation could be formed of the different provinces to try to prevent further conflict, sort of like the league of nations or the UN but this time it would ideally work.

[Crow]

Where is there evidence of Talos actually being a god?

Last I checked, the only aedra we ever have proof of existing in the games is Akatosh because of the oblivion crisis.

For all intents and purposes, if you are living in the game world and worshiping Talos, you receive all the benefits you would expect from worshiping any of the other gods; One example is blessings that actually have tangible results.

[Aux-Ash]

I don't understand how using the shout is tantamount to cheating. Is there an according-to-hoyle rulebook for Nord duelling? Somehow I very much doubt that's the case, and the people leveling the 'cheating' accusation at Ulfric are merely trying to discredit his victory, since they can't very well proclaim that Torygg won the duel. My attitude is that when you accepted a duel to the death, you're pretty much in 'no holds barred' territory, and you can't very complain that 'the manner in which I was killed wasn't gentlemanly'.

I think you're right, they are trying to discredit Ulfric's victory. They want to paint Ulfric as a man without honour, who won only through treachery. Partly because this discredits him in the eyes of the people most likely to side with him, traditional nord warriors. The imperials may not be the palatable choice to these nords, given their association with the White-Gold concordat, but they can't very well side with someone without honour. Now can they?

I think there's also a side that there's plenty of nords genuinely disgusted with Ulfric's behaviour, his shouting rendering Torygg not just outmatched but defenceless. After all, if you're going to kill a defenceless man why even bother with a duel? Why not cut his throat in his sleep? At least that'd be more honest than bothering with all the pretense of all this being honourable (read: fair).

Of course... General Tullius is hardly a honourable man either. Makes the matter a bit... muddled.

[Eldan]

Where is there evidence of Talos actually being a god?

Last I checked, the only aedra we ever have proof of existing in the games is Akatosh because of the oblivion crisis.

He shows up in MOrrowind in person, for a bit.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Which would make sense if you're talking about Ulfric using a cannon or a horse or something, but we're talking about the result of skill and talent. How that's different from just being a better fighter than him is escaping me, somewhat.

But it takes skill to use the pistol, too. You still don't have one and I do. How is that fair to you when all you have is a sword?


Also, what the Greybeards teach isn't exactly what I would call practical or canonical or even useful. If you're going to agree to the Greybeards way of doing things, then you sit back and let Alduin devour Tamriel. So, if it's all the same to you, I'm not going to taking their philosophy that seriously.

Whether it's practical isn't the issue, though. Is it fair and honorable? A large number of Nords decided 'no,' and that's how we got the Civil War. (Also, the dragons hadn't even entered the equation at the time of the duel. Though since we're on the topic...remember Alduin lost a lot of street cred with the other dragons when HE tried to use something he had and you didn't to win your fight with him--namely the fact that he's immortal. Also also...how can you say non-canonical when it's in the game? Arngeir gives you a whole speech on the subject when you first show up. :smallconfused:)


Which rather raises the question, why all the Shouts are so damn' destructive? What's the draconic for "Flowers/Scent/Pretty", or "Love/Peace/Harmony", or even "Gods/Truth/Worship"? Instead, it's all "force" this and "fire" that and "rend the soul from the body" of the other.

Kynareth, the one they're worshiping with these shouts, was originally a storm goddess and goddess of warriors (http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Kyne).

[Formless Entity]

For all intents and purposes, if you are living in the game world and worshiping Talos, you receive all the benefits you would expect from worshiping any of the other gods; One example is blessings that actually have tangible results.

Yes but you get different bonus for worshiping Akatosh and Auriel, despite both being different cultural adaptations of the same Aedra.

Perhaps it is the altar giving the power? Or maybe prayer is a form of crude magic?

[Formless Entity]

He shows up in MOrrowind in person, for a bit.

Talos in an Aedric form?

[Formless Entity]

I did a bit more research and found out I was incorrect and that Talos did become an Aedra.

In The Oblivion Crisis, the "blood of a divine" is needed to open the portal to Mankar Camoran's Paradise. The blood used is from the Armor of Tiber Septim, which implies that Tiber Septim indeed became an aedra.

[Yuki Akuma]

Technically Tiber Septim didn't become an Aedra - he didn't help create the world. He's still a god though.


Which rather raises the question, why all the Shouts are so damn' destructive? What's the draconic for "Flowers/Scent/Pretty", or "Love/Peace/Harmony", or even "Gods/Truth/Worship"? Instead, it's all "force" this and "fire" that and "rend the soul from the body" of the other.

Peace is 'Drem'. It's the second word in Kyne's Peace (Kaan Drem Ov - Kyne Peace Trust)

Dovah-Zul does also have words for God ("Rah") and Truth ("Vahzen"), but we don't know of any Shouts that use those words. No particular reason to assume they don't exist though.

[Mugwort]

Look, I'm all for openly standing on principle and damn the torpedoes, as a private citizen who'll only hurt myself anyway. But if I were a head of state, that'd be a different matter entirely.

In Skyrim there was a clearly implied that when you become a head of state you are somehow "suitable" for the position. It CAN be that your destiny is to improve the state of things or worsen it. But I think in some sense you no longer decide for yourself, rather something like 'fate' decides for you - altough you still have some portion of "free will". However will of the gods weight much harder on your head - that's why 'private citizens' can be real heroes and decides for themselves (protagonist of a Skyrim game is nobody therefor can do anything), but head of the states can't.

[Yuki Akuma]

In Skyrim there was a clearly implied that when you become a head of state you are somehow "suitable" for the position. It CAN be that your destiny is to improve the state of things or worsen it. But I think in some sense you no longer decide for yourself, rather something like 'fate' decides for you - altough you still have some portion of "free will". However will of the gods weight much harder on your head - that's why 'private citizens' can be real heroes and decides for themselves (protagonist of a Skyrim game is nobody therefor can do anything), but head of the states can't.

Well, the reason the protagonist can do anything is due to having no fate (thanks, CHIM!), not specifically because they're a nobody. Vivec was similar and look how he ended up.

[The_Jackal]

So you are saying that the cause of the Imperials is bad because of one crooked officer?

By that logic we should discount all of the stormcloaks because a sizeable portion of them are racist.

I agree, the treatment of the protagonist in the prologue isn't relevant to the discussion, simply because there's no facts that can be objectively known about the circumstances of their capture. But even if one lazy stupid Imperial is willing to falsely execute a prisoner, that doesn't make the Imperial cause invalid. What DOES make the Imperial cause invalid is that their strategy of appeasing the Thalmor will only hasten the Empire's demise.


Where is there evidence of Talos actually being a god?

Last I checked, the only aedra we ever have proof of existing in the games is Akatosh because of the oblivion crisis.

His shrines cure your diseases, just like the shrines to any other divine. That's all the evidence you get of any divine's existence and power.

[Grim Portent]

There's also some evidence of Talos' divinity in the Knights of the Nine quests in Oblivion. Each of the gods is associated with part of the arms and armour of the crusader except Talos, who instead grants you a blessing that lets you pursue Umaril the Unfeathered to a plane of Oblivion to kill him permanently.

[Formless Entity]

Technically Tiber Septim didn't become an Aedra - he didn't help create the world. He's still a god though.



Peace is 'Drem'. It's the second word in Kyne's Peace (Kaan Drem Ov - Kyne Peace Trust)

Dovah-Zul does also have words for God ("Rah") and Truth ("Vahzen"), but we don't know of any Shouts that use those words. No particular reason to assume they don't exist though.

I know that is how they are typically categorized, but as he does not make an active hand in the world without conduits and does not have his own plane of oblivion he would still be an Aedra.

Similarly Malacath came into being after the creation of the world so it could be argued he is not a Daedra, however he has a plane of oblivion and can take direct action in events without a conduit.

[HerbieRAI]

That depends on the terms of the duel; agreeing to a duel with swords and then using a pistol would be cheating, duel to the death or not. The 'to the death' part just precludes a rematch if that happens. :smallwink:

Ulfric used something Torygg had no access to and no reasonable way of getting access to in time for their fight. And let's not forget, the Greybeards he learned that Shout from teach that the Voice should only be used to praise the gods and for True Need. Beating someone half his level of experience in a fight he might have been able to win with just his sword is neither.

I think Ulfric's dishonor with the other Jarls isn't winning the duel, it was issuing the duel. Most likely Ulfric was the second place candiate to Torygg in the last Moot. Then rather than accept that the other Jarls would rather have Torygg, he finds a way to kill him within the law to force another Moot. Ulfric is ignoring the other Jarl's wishes and trying to force his own, so of course they aren't going to say he is honorable.

[Crow]

I think Ulfric's dishonor with the other Jarls isn't winning the duel, it was issuing the duel. Most likely Ulfric was the second place candiate to Torygg in the last Moot. Then rather than accept that the other Jarls would rather have Torygg, he finds a way to kill him within the law to force another Moot. Ulfric is ignoring the other Jarl's wishes and trying to force his own, so of course they aren't going to say he is honorable.

Well Ulfric does have the support of a number of the jarls. It could just be a matter of Torygg's faction not approving of it because Torygg is 'their guy'.

[veti]

But it takes skill to use the pistol, too. You still don't have one and I do. How is that fair to you when all you have is a sword?

Torygg had a voice. He could have trained it to do what Ulfric could do, but he didn't. That's his lookout.


Kynareth, the one they're worshiping with these shouts, was originally a storm goddess and goddess of warriors (http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Kyne).

Storms and warriors - and fire, and etherealness, and domination, and trickery, and clear skies, and moving really really fast over short distances. But not anything that's not geared towards adventurers. It's an eccentric domain, that one.

Edit:


Well Ulfric does have the support of a number of the jarls. It could just be a matter of Torygg's faction not approving of it because Torygg is 'their guy'.

Yep, exactly. We have to bear in mind the politics going on here. Nobody's opinion or account should be taken entirely at face value: every single character in the game has their own agenda and is, whether they even realise it or not, spinning like fury to present the most favourable case they can for their own team.

It seems to me that a lot of people here apply that sort of scepticism only to one side, they take Team Torygg's view as unvarnished truth.

Further edit:

He shows up in MOrrowind in person, for a bit.

Weell... some elderly dude in a legion officer's uniform turns up for a brief cameo. Maybe he's Talos, maybe he isn't - there's no definitive statement.

[Formless Entity]

So I have a question.

How many Stormcloak supporters care that so many Stormcloaks are racist and that Ulfric drove out the native people from Markarth and did a lot of war crimes while doing so then used his position to force the empire to let him and his men worship Talos making them risk fighting an all-out war with the Aldmeri Dominion?

[Formless Entity]

Well Ulfric does have the support of a number of the jarls. It could just be a matter of Torygg's faction not approving of it because Torygg is 'their guy'.

Maybe they disagree with that outdated method of selecting a leader.

[Crow]

I only ran into a handful of stormcloaks that we today would consider truly racist. I also think that when you're talking about truly separate races (not just dudes who happen to have a different skin color), it's not so out of the ordinary to have an in-group preference of sorts. Especially if you live in a harsh and unforgiving land like Skyrim.

That said, in this case what I have seen more from the stormcloaks is dislike of "provincials". That is it isn't your race that they have a problem with; it is that you are a relative newcomer to their land and do not ascribe to (or sometimes even respect) their cultural norms and traditions.

[druid91]

So I have a question.

How many Stormcloak supporters care that so many Stormcloaks are racist and that Ulfric drove out the native people from Markarth and did a lot of war crimes while doing so then used his position to force the empire to let him and his men worship Talos making them risk fighting an all-out war with the Aldmeri Dominion?

Please take a look at the native Reachmen. Their barbaric religion that involves human sacrifices to hagravens and ripping out your own heart to become an inhuman monster.

Tell me you wouldn't do what you could to keep them out of power.

And as I recall, One of Ulfrics things is he WANTS another war with the Aldmeri. He's pretty open about it.

[Formless Entity]

I only ran into a handful of stormcloaks that we today would consider truly racist. I also think that when you're talking about truly separate races (not just dudes who happen to have a different skin color), it's not so out of the ordinary to have an in-group preference of sorts. Especially if you live in a harsh and unforgiving land like Skyrim.

That said, in this case what I have seen more from the stormcloaks is dislike of "provincials". That is it isn't your race that they have a problem with; it is that you are a relative newcomer to their land and do not ascribe to (or sometimes even respect) their cultural norms and traditions.

Seeing as elves and human can intermix and produce fertile offspring and both being descended from the Ehlnofey. They are not truly separate races.

[Formless Entity]

Please take a look at the native Reachmen. Their barbaric religion that involves human sacrifices to hagravens and ripping out your own heart to become an inhuman monster.

Tell me you wouldn't do what you could to keep them out of power.

And as I recall, One of Ulfrics things is he WANTS another war with the Aldmeri. He's pretty open about it.

That does not justify the killing of children.

[Crow]

Seeing as elves and human can intermix and produce fertile offspring and both being descended from the Ehlnofey. They are not truly separate races.

That is true. :smallredface: As I said, I think it is more a cultural issue than a racial one.

[Winter_Wolf]

Torygg had a voice. He could have trained it to do what Ulfric could do, but he didn't. That's his lookout.



Storms and warriors - and fire, and etherealness, and domination, and trickery, and clear skies, and moving really really fast over short distances. But not anything that's not geared towards adventurers. It's an eccentric domain, that one.

Edit:



Yep, exactly. We have to bear in mind the politics going on here. Nobody's opinion or account should be taken entirely at face value: every single character in the game has their own agenda and is, whether they even realise it or not, spinning like fury to present the most favourable case they can for their own team.

It seems to me that a lot of people here apply that sort of scepticism only to one side, they take Team Torygg's view as unvarnished truth..

Tamriel is a crapsack continent on Nirn, a crapsack world. Just gotta pick a side and hope for the best. Well technically you don't *have* to, but seems like the difference between most people wanting to harm you versus everyone wanting to do so. Team Empire or Team Secession; great choices. Blearg. Meanwhile Team Genocide rubs their hands together and does the cliche muahaha.

Men and mer are like dogs and wolves; same ancestors, but not the same species.

[The_Jackal]

So I have a question.

How many Stormcloak supporters care that so many Stormcloaks are racist and that Ulfric drove out the native people from Markarth and did a lot of war crimes while doing so then used his position to force the empire to let him and his men worship Talos making them risk fighting an all-out war with the Aldmeri Dominion?

The Forsworn are demon-worshipping cannibals. If killing demon-worshipping cannibals is wrong, I don't want to be right. So far as I know, there's ONE racist Stormcloak, that drunk fool in Windhelm, and certainly not Ulfric. How do I know he's not? Because you get to join his cause and fight for Skyrim regardless of what race you are. The same is true for the other Stormcloaks you work with: They care that you fight for their homeland against the Thalmor and the Empire. That's it. But don't take my word for it, ask Niryane, Altmer living amongst Stormcloak Nords, "It was difficult at first. The Nords of this city are, at best, suspicious of outsiders. But in time, I made the right friends and proved myself useful enough that they don't give me trouble anymore. The dark elves are too proud and naive to understand the way things truly are, and so they continue to dwell in that slum."

Make the right friends and proves yourself. Fight for Skyrim. Be a part of the Nord community, honor their traditions and customs. Doesn't seem too much to ask for someone looking for a place in someone else's homeland.

[The_Jackal]

But it takes skill to use the pistol, too. You still don't have one and I do. How is that fair to you when all you have is a sword?

But the voice isnt't a THING. It's not a tangible object you can take off someone and put aside. It's not a weapon, it's innate in you.

[Admiral Squish]

I feel like we don't know enough about the rules of duels to know what's the right interpretation of the legality of shouts. I mean... is magic normally allowed?

[veti]

The Forsworn are demon-worshipping cannibals. If killing demon-worshipping cannibals is wrong, I don't want to be right.

The Forsworn, as a faction, was only created after the Markarth Incident. You can't use anything they do to justify "the Incident" itself.

As for "demon-worshipping cannibals" - really? All I know is that Forsworn men and women have the option - option, mind you - to put themselves forward to become hagravens and briarhearts, respectively. They volunteer for that. I don't recall any mention of "worshipping demons", but even if they do, that would make them no worse than the Dunmer, who are quite open about their daedric religion.


So far as I know, there's ONE racist Stormcloak, that drunk fool in Windhelm, and certainly not Ulfric.

Well, how about Elda "Maybe you should just move along" Early-Dawn, or Viola "So typical of his kind... That should teach those people a lesson" Giordano, or Angrenor "these gray-skins" Once-Honored? Maybe you can't blame Ulfric himself - but maybe you can. Lots of people, in-game, do. And there's no doubt he voluntarily surrounds himself with people, like his right-hand man Galmar Stone-Fist, who uses a lot of language like "pointy-eared bastards", "prissy Bretons" and worse.


But don't take my word for it, ask Niryane, Altmer living amongst Stormcloak Nords

Great idea, ask the person voted Most-Likely-In-Her-Class-To-Be-A-Dominion-Spy.

Edit:

Tamriel is a crapsack continent on Nirn, a crapsack world. Just gotta pick a side and hope for the best. Well technically you don't *have* to, but seems like the difference between most people wanting to harm you versus everyone wanting to do so.

Actually, my experience - which is quite extensive at this point, I think I've got close to 2000 hours in Skyrim - is that if you leave the civil war alone, it'll leave you alone. Of all the reasons people try to kill me, this one doesn't even register. Leave the two sides in stalemate. Also saves a lot of lives, since neither side will apparently make any sort of move unless you personally encourage them to do it (by joining them).

[DomaDoma]

I have to think The Bear of Markarth is extremely distorted agitprop. I mean, you name a grudge, you'll find Markarthians who bear it - and yet no one in the city speaks a word about the atrocities of Ulfric Stormcloak.

[Crow]

Great idea, ask the person voted Most-Likely-In-Her-Class-To-Be-A-Dominion-Spy.


Now that's racist! :D

[Bashhammer]

So far as I know, there's ONE racist Stormcloak, that drunk fool in Windhelm, and certainly not Ulfric.

There's also Bolund in Falkreath who says, "I can't believe we let provincials like you wander Skyrim" if you're not a nord, and "Stay out of my way, boot." if you're an argonian. And there's Vulwulf Snow-shod in riften, who says, "Be brief Imperial, there's only so long I can stand being downwind of your stench." and actually calls you an Imperial bastard when ending a conversation if you play as one.

The Empire got my support the moment I discovered supporting the Stormcloaks made you betray Balgruuf. That will NEVER be forgiven. That the Stormcloaks are ***hats to non-nords just adds to my hatred.

[Formless Entity]

That is true. :smallredface: As I said, I think it is more a cultural issue than a racial one.

They treat Dumner that where born in Skyrim poorly.

[Formless Entity]

There's also Bolund in Falkreath who says, "I can't believe we let provincials like you wander Skyrim" if you're not a nord, and "Stay out of my way, boot." if you're an argonian. And there's Vulwulf Snow-shod in riften, who says, "Be brief Imperial, there's only so long I can stand being downwind of your stench." and actually calls you an Imperial bastard when ending a conversation if you play as one.

The Empire got my support the moment I discovered supporting the Stormcloaks made you betray Balgruuf. That will NEVER be forgiven. That the Stormcloaks are ***hats to non-nords just adds to my hatred.

You forgot Galamar Stone-Fist who when asked about that issue he says. "Syrim belongs to the Nords! Read your history!" despite the Nords' forefathers, the Atmorans, have taken it from the Falmer, Dwemer, and the Nedic humans.

[Crow]

They treat Dumner that where born in Skyrim poorly.

From interactions in-game it sounds like the dunmer self-segregate.

[veti]

Now that's racist! :D

I'd defend it. It's not just her race, she's shady as all get-out in her own right. Tight with the Thieves.\' Guild and the Summerset Shadows. "Just got here from Summerset". And a lot of her dialogue - well, it makes sense if she's just a straightforward opportunist criminal, but it makes even more sense if she's also a Dominion agent.

Remember, the Dominion's secret service is second to none. They must have spies in Windhelm, and in the Thieves' Guild. Niranye could cover both...

[Formless Entity]

From interactions in-game it sounds like the dunmer self-segregate.

Can you please provide examples?

[Crow]

Can you please provide examples?

Windhelm is the only stormcloak hold where you have these dunmer ghettos. In other stormcloak-held holds you see dunmer living their lives the same way as any other citizens of skyrim. When you go to the gray quarter and talk to dunmer, they all insist that it is Ulfric who is to blame for their problems; even though one of those very same guys complaining admits that Ulfric tolerates them. That altmer you talk to seems to think that the dunmer are placing themselves apart, because she didn't have any problems winning over the nords (this is even more amazing if you remember that in Ulfric's mind the greatest threat to Skyrim is the aldmeri dominion!). The player is able to buy a house outside of the ghetto without any problem regardless of race.

If you talk to some dunmer, you find out that they all came to Windhelm because it was the first city they came to after the big blow up. That's important, because these dunmer here are refugees. Ulfric could have turned away all these refugees, but chose to allow them to stay. However, you would be hard pressed to let in so many foreign refugees from another culture that they are able to take over a quarter of your city and not have some civil disharmony; which accounts for some (not all) of the grumbling about dunmer as opposed to other "provincials" in that city.

Now it is true that Ulfric himself is unwilling to do much to help the dunmer in his city. Part of that could be typical paranoia. If you talk to him, he admits the elves (almeri) are the bigger threat compared to the empire. It's likely he doesn't trust elves of any type; and that would be somewhat understandable if you consider that he probably isn't familiar with the intricacies of the different types of elf-kin. Even some of Ulfric's close advisors speak about wanting to improve the condition of the dark elves in the city.

It's clear that racism against even the dunmer isn't a stormcloak thing like some people want to claim that it is. More likely it is (like almost all racism) an individual thing.

[Formless Entity]

Windhelm is the only stormcloak hold where you have these dunmer ghettos. In other stormcloak-held holds you see dunmer living their lives the same way as any other citizens of skyrim. When you go to the gray quarter and talk to dunmer, they all insist that it is Ulfric who is to blame for their problems; even though one of those very same guys complaining admits that Ulfric tolerates them. That altmer you talk to seems to think that the dunmer are placing themselves apart, because she didn't have any problems winning over the nords (this is even more amazing if you remember that in Ulfric's mind the greatest threat to Skyrim is the aldmeri dominion!). The player is able to buy a house outside of the ghetto without any problem regardless of race.

If you talk to some dunmer, you find out that they all came to Windhelm because it was the first city they came to after the big blow up. That's important, because these dunmer here are refugees. Ulfric could have turned away all these refugees, but chose to allow them to stay. However, you would be hard pressed to let in so many foreign refugees from another culture that they are able to take over a quarter of your city and not have some civil disharmony; which accounts for some (not all) of the grumbling about dunmer as opposed to other "provincials" in that city.

Now it is true that Ulfric himself is unwilling to do much to help the dunmer in his city. Part of that could be typical paranoia. If you talk to him, he admits the elves (almeri) are the bigger threat compared to the empire. It's likely he doesn't trust elves of any type; and that would be somewhat understandable if you consider that he probably isn't familiar with the intricacies of the different types of elf-kin. Even some of Ulfric's close advisors speak about wanting to improve the condition of the dark elves in the city.

It's clear that racism against even the dunmer isn't a stormcloak thing like some people want to claim that it is. More likely it is (like almost all racism) an individual thing.

One problem with that is that the people of the city treating them differently due to their race is still present and if Ulfric could solve their problems but chooses not to then it is his fault that they are like this,

And what do you have to say about the Argonains that where kicked out of the city entirely?

[Formless Entity]

And a lot of her dialogue - well, it makes sense if she's just a straightforward opportunist criminal, but it makes even more sense if she's also a Dominion agent.


Why does it make more sense that way?

[Crow]

One problem with that is that the people of the city treating them differently due to their race is still present and if Ulfric could solve their problems but chooses not to then it is his fault that they are like this,

And what do you have to say about the Argonains that where kicked out of the city entirely?

Yeah, Ulfric's a bastard as has been established; but he may feel he's done enough to help them already. Who knows? We're talking about a human with human feelings and emotions. That still doesn't mean Stormcloak = Stormfront.

I admit I have no idea what the situation with the argonians was. What few sources we run into in the game itself seem very biased, to say the least. Come to think of it however, argonians seem to be really rare in skyrim in general.

[factotum]

|Come to think of it however, argonians seem to be really rare in skyrim in general.

You've not been to the Argonian Assemblage in Windhelm? There are quite a few of them there, and they explicitly say they're forced to live there because they're not welcome in the main part of the city.

[Grim Portent]

Argonians and Khajiit being discriminated against is more or less the norm for the entire setting. Every city in Skyirm forbids Khajiit traders from entering the city limits and Argonians are basically always treated with suspicion and derision, though only in Windhelm are they forbidden to live in the city proper.

It was similar in Oblivion, and considerably worse in Morrowwind.



It's also worth bearing in mind in regards to Ulfric's treatment of Dunmer, there is actually an influential Dunmer in Windhelm.

http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Belyn_Hlaalu

Belyn owns one of the farms and employs a Nord woman. He also, much like Niranye, attributes the problems faced by the Dunmer in the Gray Quarter as being their own fault for complaining and begging rather than working to change opinions.

[Cikomyr]

But that could also be an "Uncle Tom" situation, with the member of a minority kissing ass to the dominant majority, getting rich in the process, and them berating his.kin for.not doing the same.

[Winter_Wolf]

Someone refresh me please, does anything actually get better for the dunmer of Windhelm if you side with the Empire and overthrow Ulfric? I recall a sense of hopefulness but not really any improvement. Dunmer self segregating seems to be a normal thing that many peoples do because they've collectively been through something terrible and have the safety of numbers in a strange land. That's said it's not a great long term strategy since they'll never really integrate with locals and get (more of) a reputation for being clannish and standoffish. Catch-22 situation. I feel bad for the dunmer who want to be part of Windhelm society, but I can't muster much for those who don't try.

Notice how the least tolerated non altmer are all heavily biased toward excelling as rogues? Bet it doesn't help with relations in Skyrim's general population. Literal cat burglars, creatures from the black lagoon Blackwater with claws and sharp teeth, dark strangers who can sneak up and stab you in the night or burn you to death just by standing close to you and "bursting into flames". Stereotypes might be wrong but it never stops people from doing it.

Tangential: I tried once playing with Live Another Life and starting as a Thalmor agent, but sadly it wasn't more than starting inside the embassy and none were hostile to you. Just to try being the AD special ops come to Skyrim to sow chaos in preparation for crushing men once and for all. Would have broke the game, I'm sure, but still disappointed.

[Mando Knight]

The new Jarl says it's on his list, but actually reforming things like that is well beyond the reach of vanilla Skyrim, so nothing actually gets done.

[Winter_Wolf]

The new Jarl says it's on his list, but actually reforming things like that is well beyond the reach of vanilla Skyrim, so nothing actually gets done.

Heh, not to be overly cynical, but "on my list" never seems to be more than "see, right there at the bottom, and no matter how many other things I cross off, it magically stays right there. Strange magic, that." I'd say I was surprised more dunmer don't flee to Solstheim, but between actual game limitations about that and in game having been there, it's pretty clear why that isn't the case.

[Mando Knight]

Except that the Imperial Jarl is also basically the sole Nord in Windhelm who advocates better treatment of the Dunmer when Ulfric's still around, and once he's on the throne, UESP relates (http://uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Brunwulf_Free-Winter):

If asked for any plans to renovate the Gray Quarter, Jarl Brunwulf will reply, "I've taken the first steps toward doing so already. I met with several of the Dark Elves to discuss improvements in the Gray Quarter, but we have no real plans as of yet. First we'll need to refill our coffers and stockpile stone and wood. The war took a heavy toll on Windhelm's resources." He'll promise you, "But I swore an oath to our Dunmer friends that, for as long as I sit on the throne of Windhelm, their needs will not be ignored."

[Crow]

But that could also be an "Uncle Tom" situation, with the member of a minority kissing ass to the dominant majority, getting rich in the process, and them berating his.kin for.not doing the same.

Oh my god, he went there. :smallbiggrin:

Be that as it may...It doesn't change the fact that this guy managed to overcome the differences, and climb the ladder to prosper in Windhelm.

[Mugwort]

Best "Uncle Tom" so far was Samuel L. Jackson in Django Unchained.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

The Forsworn, as a faction, was only created after the Markarth Incident. You can't use anything they do to justify "the Incident" itself.

As for "demon-worshipping cannibals" - really? All I know is that Forsworn men and women have the option - option, mind you - to put themselves forward to become hagravens and briarhearts, respectively. They volunteer for that. I don't recall any mention of "worshipping demons", but even if they do, that would make them no worse than the Dunmer, who are quite open about their daedric religion.

You are wrong or at least strongly inaccurate on a number of counts. The Reachmen as a faction have existed since at least the Second Era, just not by the name 'Forsworn.' And their temperament back then was close enough to the modern versions as to make little difference. Here (http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Improved_Emperor%27s_Guide_to_Tamriel/Bangkorai) is an account wherein prisoners are hunted down for sport. Here (http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:A_Life_Barbaric_and_Brutal) and here (http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:On_the_Nature_of_Reachmen) are parts of an account of a lady enslaved by Reachmen: child sacrifice, worship of Namira. This is ignoring everything our dear buddy Angof (http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Angof_the_Gravesinger_(person)) and his followers get up to during the Daggerfall Covenant questline for Glenumbra. Driving the wildlife to attack villagers, putting seeds into people that turn them into zombie monsters...

I admittedly can't remember if the Hagraven that had most of the women of Camlorn kidnapped so she could turn them into Hagravens or the ones in...I think it was the Rift...that were sucking out peoples' eyeballs and then killing and reanimating them were with the Reachmen specifically, so I'll leave those instances out for now.



If you talk to some dunmer, you find out that they all came to Windhelm because it was the first city they came to after the big blow up. That's important, because these dunmer here are refugees. Ulfric could have turned away all these refugees, but chose to allow them to stay. However, you would be hard pressed to let in so many foreign refugees from another culture that they are able to take over a quarter of your city and not have some civil disharmony; which accounts for some (not all) of the grumbling about dunmer as opposed to other "provincials" in that city.

Don't forget that the thing they're all refugees FROM is the Red Year and destruction of most of Morrowind--which was a little less than two hundred years prior. Ulfric had nothing to do with accepting them into the city.

That said, I got the impression that Ulfric didn't really care about the dunmer one way or the other, but his subordinates don't like them so he neglects the dunmer to keep their support.

[veti]

Why does it make more sense that way?

Example:


Niranye: "Captain Lonely-Gale, it's always a pleasure to see you. In fact, I'm glad you're here. There's something I'd like to ask you."
Lonely-Gale: "A pleasure to see you as well, Niranye. What can I do for you?"
Niranye: "I was wondering if you still had many associates in the shipping profession. I have a business proposition for any sailors who might be looking to make a few extra septims."
Lonely-Gale: "If that business proposition includes smuggling, forget it. The sailors I know are plenty good at finding trouble without any help from you."
Niranye: "You're such a wet blanket, captain. Can't a girl have a little fun from time to time?"

Smuggling... what? Smuggling is a high-risk occupation in wartime, and arguably there's no way it can be politically neutral: at the very least, you're bilking the treasury at a time when it needs every septim. (At most, you're smuggling weapons, money and/or intel to the enemy.)



Niranye: "Hello, Jora. I'm glad to see you. In fact, I was just thinking about you and your husband."
Jora: "Is that so? And what were you thinking, exactly?"
Niranye: "Well, I've heard awful stories about these Thalmor, and how they're rounding up everyone who still worships Talos. The interrogations are quite merciless, from what I've heard. I fear for you and your husband, should the Thalmor come here. But perhaps there's a way I can help."
Jora: "I doubt Ulfric would let Thalmor into Windhelm without a fight. But please, do continue. How would you help us?"
Niranye: "Well, let's just say that I know some people who are experts at helping others disappear when they need to. They are discreet and thorough, though not inexpensive. I hope you'll keep that in mind, should the worst come to pass."

Now, sure, you can read that as a little purely-profit-motivated people-smuggling. But more sinisterly, she's also trying to entice the priest of Talos into abandoning her post in the city. What would that do to the morale of the defenders?

Or her own account of "fitting in":



Niranye: It was difficult at first. The Nords of this city are, at best, suspicious of outsiders. But in time, I made the right friends and proved myself useful enough that they don't give me trouble anymore.

"Made the right friends and proved myself useful enough" - this can only mean "bribed, blackmailed or otherwise corrupted important people". If it was as innocent as "kept my nose clean and paid my taxes", then "the right friends" would be irrelevant. Why is she going to so much trouble to establish herself as a general merchant - in a city that already has plenty of general merchants, and is a hotbed of hostility to her country and her race?

[Skeptical3974]

So, just as a disclaimer, I haven't played any elder scrolls games besides Skyrim. I haven't even explored all of Skyrim, nor have a completed the main story line. However, I have gotten a character past level forty and killed Ulfric Stormcloak in the imperial quest line. I figured out pretty early on that I am against the Skyrim Civil war, and I am also against the war with the Aldmeri Dominion. I feel like if the Stormcloaks won the civil war, the Aldmeri Dominion would be angry, and they would invade Skyrim, since it would still be quite split and still recovering from a long civil war, the Dominion would easily win. So this lead to me being Pro imperial, because if they won the war, they would still have the treaty with the Dominion going and there would be no more bloodshed. I understand that there a lot of people who prefer the Stormcloaks, and besides the fact that they are cooler, I don't really understand why you would be in support of them. They are a rebellion, but I don't understand what their grievances are, the only one I've heard is the ban of the worship of Talos, which seems like a small price to pay for peace. Besides, it's not that strongly enforced, considering there are many monks of Talos walking free in many cities, and there is a temple of Talos in Markarth, an Imperial city. So really I just want to hear more arguments for the Stormcloaks, or information that I am wrong on or don't know about.

The banning of the worship of Talos, a hero and God to the Nords of Skyrim, due to the White-Gold Concordat, was one of the reasons. Another reason was the failure to beat the invading Aldmeri Dominion, and forcing them to surrender, and leave Tamriel. The Oblivion Crisis that occured in Cyrodiil made the Nords of Skyrim lose more faith in the Empire, and not trust many powerful mages, such as the Elves of the Aldmeri Dominion. Finally, interference with Ancient Nord Tradition, where any Jarl could challenge the High King in battle for the Throne, as Jarl Ulfric Stormcloak did with High King Torrid, was another. Ulfric didn't murder Torrid, he (Torrid) lost the battle, which should've made Ulfric High King. The Empire interfered, because the Aldmeri Dominion told them to, or threatened to wage war again.

[LibraryOgre]

The Mod Wonder: What we haven't talked about was how the specifics of the policies towards Necromancy function in Skyrim. For such a magic-negative culture, they seem very positive with regards to necromancy... unlike this message board.