Rogue/Assassin - how to power up? [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

WarKitty

2016-06-05, 06:06 PM

What is the rest of the party, so we can make suggestions that don't intrude on this? Also, what is the campaign based on?

Perhaps some sweet loot will be in order. A nice dagger to go stabby stabby with.

Also, could you consider a rebuild? Maybe another class is in order.

Is there any way to make the spellcasting of the assassin better? A few spells here and there might be good. Or replace them entirely with another feature if that's not his thing.

We have a druid, an artificer, a bard/paladin, a cloistered cleric, and a cavalier. Which probably illustrates the problem nicely. Everyone's level 7.

I doubt the player wants a rebuild - he likes playing but hates building new characters.

Malak'ai

2016-06-05, 06:24 PM

The first thing that popped into my mind for the stabby-stabby part was the Shadow Blade feat from ToB. But since the character isn't an Initiator, it'd require taking Martial Study and Martial Stance feats first. Best suggestions for that would be "Clinging Shadow Strike" and obviously "Assassins Stance".
It's a heavy investment if the character isn't built purely for SA damage, but it could work out nicely.

Other than that, all I can think of off the top of my (sleep deprived) head is giving them a Rogue's Vest and a dagger/short sword/stabby weapon of choice with the Deadly Precision property on it.

WarKitty

2016-06-06, 11:46 AM

Honestly the character isn't really specialized for anything. The problem is he wanted to build a jack-of-all-trades, but ended up being outclassed by someone in everything. That said, I think sneaking and fighting are his things, and anything that makes him better at this thing would be good.

Rebel7284

2016-06-06, 11:55 AM

Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis from Tome of Magic, especially the continuous version, may be a fun item to drop at some point. Getting the Dark template for free certainly helps with sneaking. :)

Some of those augment crystals from MIC to be able to sneak attack undead and golems may be nice too.

Gildedragon

2016-06-06, 12:01 PM

Second the collar but just give him the template.
Gloves of the shadow hand to get him a couple maneuvers (shadow jaunt and child of shadow are a blast)
An artifact that let's him bind malphas (maybe an intelligent dagger)

But if they want to jack-of-all-trades: let them retrain into factotum
I got a guide that can help them on that front.

Andezzar

2016-06-06, 12:05 PM

WarKitty

2016-06-06, 12:06 PM

ToB is always a good idea, but here is a different one: Convince your DM that you never had a rogue/ assassin, but a psychic rogue (https://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd%2Fpsm%2F20040723b)/psychic assassin (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723d). You lose a couple of SA dice but you get manifesting including the ability of taking the Expanded Knowledge feat for Metamorphosis (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/metamorphosis.htm).

The player in question doesn't want to redo his sheet - he likes playing but hates the character building part. I don't think he wants to mess with stuff like ToB or psionics either. He seems the type who wants a more straightforward character.

Gildedragon

2016-06-06, 12:12 PM

The player in question doesn't want to redo his sheet - he likes playing but hates the character building part. I don't think he wants to mess with stuff like ToB or psionics either. He seems the type who wants a more straightforward character.
ToB is really really straight forward

If they hate character building then the only option is loot...

Alternatively: you ask them what they want to do and aren't able to. Then present them with options to get that. If they are dissatisfied They might enjoy the shift a light rebuild will give them.

Red Fel

2016-06-06, 12:23 PM

I have a player playing a rogue/assassin (or whatever that class that's the assassin but non-evil is called) that could use some powering up. He doesn't like to do a lot of figuring or messing with his sheet, so something simple would be best. I think he's trying to be a jack-of-all-trades and is having the issue that someone else is better than him at everything.

The best stuff would be ways to make him actually good at being sneaky and stabby. Loot drops are acceptable. Ideas?

We have a druid, an artificer, a bard/paladin, a cloistered cleric, and a cavalier. Which probably illustrates the problem nicely. Everyone's level 7.

I doubt the player wants a rebuild - he likes playing but hates building new characters.

The player in question doesn't want to redo his sheet - he likes playing but hates the character building part. I don't think he wants to mess with stuff like ToB or psionics either. He seems the type who wants a more straightforward character.

Here's the bottom line. Jack of all trades isn't a very effective archetype, unless you're playing a Wizard, who at an arbitrary level can do all the things via spells. This player needs to pick one thing at which his character can excel; everything else he can simply be decent. The full saying is, "Jack of all trades, master of none." He shouldn't be surprised that a character designed not to specialize is being overshadowed by specialists.

The problem is you're giving us a bad situation. Specifically, a situation where the player simultaneously wants improvement but doesn't want to change. The character is a jack of all trades. The PC ineffectual, and the player is understandably frustrated that the character he designed to be middling across the board is being overshadowed... But he doesn't want to change the character.

Don't give him gimmes. I know it's tempting to offer him stuff that will make him better, and it's not unfair to put some helpful stuff into the loot. But those other players built their characters to be effective; for you to just give him that same level of effectiveness would be an insult to their work and would disincentivize it further. And for you to give him stuff that doesn't bring him up to that level doesn't actually solve the problem.

Offer to sit down with him and help him rebuild his character to be more effective at something. One rebuild. Keep it with simple mechanics, go with a straightforward combat-oriented class. You can do a lot with Barbarian, for example. If he refuses, that's his call, but you shouldn't then start throwing +17 Daggers of Ultimate Ninjutsu at him. It's an insult to those who worked on their characters.

WarKitty

2016-06-06, 12:30 PM

Here's the bottom line. Jack of all trades isn't a very effective archetype, unless you're playing a Wizard, who at an arbitrary level can do all the things via spells. This player needs to pick one thing at which his character can excel; everything else he can simply be decent. The full saying is, "Jack of all trades, master of none." He shouldn't be surprised that a character designed not to specialize is being overshadowed by specialists.

The problem is you're giving us a bad situation. Specifically, a situation where the player simultaneously wants improvement but doesn't want to change. The character is a jack of all trades. The PC ineffectual, and the player is understandably frustrated that the character he designed to be middling across the board is being overshadowed... But he doesn't want to change the character.

Don't give him gimmes. I know it's tempting to offer him stuff that will make him better, and it's not unfair to put some helpful stuff into the loot. But those other players built their characters to be effective; for you to just give him that same level of effectiveness would be an insult to their work and would disincentivize it further. And for you to give him stuff that doesn't bring him up to that level doesn't actually solve the problem.

Offer to sit down with him and help him rebuild his character to be more effective at something. One rebuild. Keep it with simple mechanics, go with a straightforward combat-oriented class. You can do a lot with Barbarian, for example. If he refuses, that's his call, but you shouldn't then start throwing +17 Daggers of Ultimate Ninjutsu at him. It's an insult to those who worked on their characters.

To be fair, it's not like he didn't work on his character. He's also my only inexperienced player going up against players who have a lot of optimization experience. And what he wants is to be a sneaky, assassin type character - he just doesn't have the experience to build one quickly, and the assassin class is kind of a trap without optimization. But a lot of people don't want someone else building their character for them, you know?

Gildedragon

2016-06-06, 12:44 PM

Give him options that can do what he wants

Swordsage focused on shadow hand, with maybe a level or two in rogue is... Well hitting the nail on the head as to what he wants. Talk about goals and concept. Even just 2 levels in Ssage can boost a rogue character a lot.

Or (bit more book keeping tho) Beguiler

DarkSoul

2016-06-06, 12:50 PM

Replace the Assassin levels with Invisible Blade from Complete Warrior, and give him the Craven feat from Champions of Ruin (-2 on saves vs. fear, add his character level to sneak attack damage). No worrying about setting up for death attacks, no spellcasting hassles. His SA damage will go up and he'll be able to do it all the time with full levels of Invisible Blade. Craven starts to get really good if he uses a high threat range keen weapon like a kukri.

Wands of Grave Strike, Golem Strike, and Wraithstrike (all from the Spell Compendium) should set him up nicely for landing his sneak attacks, and his Use Magic Device will be plenty high to use them.

EDIT: Also, make sure you change the requirements to get into Invisible Blade, replacing Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot with Weapon Finesse and Skill Focus (Bluff). There's a convoluted history behind the PrC and those replacements are evidently from the author of the class. Even if they're not they make much more sense than the ranged feats.

Also, consider allowing the Unfettered Defense ability from IB to work in light armor so he doesn't get obliterated in combat or have to invest too heavily in magical defenses.

Red Fel

2016-06-06, 12:51 PM

To be fair, it's not like he didn't work on his character. He's also my only inexperienced player going up against players who have a lot of optimization experience. And what he wants is to be a sneaky, assassin type character - he just doesn't have the experience to build one quickly, and the assassin class is kind of a trap without optimization. But a lot of people don't want someone else building their character for them, you know?

I get that he put in some work. And I get that he's inexperienced. And I get that his inexperience has lead to a limited degree of optimization.

But he is rejecting the solution. If he doesn't want to change his character, and he doesn't want you to help him change his character, then he is saying that he is satisfied with this character. It doesn't go both ways. You can't say "I want my character to change" and simultaneously say "I don't want my character to change."

If he wants to change the character, great. He's inexperienced, so offer to help him. Don't build it for him, but walk him through, steering him away from trap options and towards smart choices, so he can see what's going to work and why. Help him learn. That's great.

But if he doesn't want to change the character, you shouldn't be showering him with loot to make up for his refusal. You're making excuses for him - "He's inexperienced," "A lot of people don't want someone else building their character," "He's going up against players who have a lot of optimization experience." These are excuses. They're fair statements, but they all lead back to, "And that's why I want to give him special treatment."

Don't. Offer him the chance to improve; if he refuses to take it, that's his choice, but his refusal doesn't obligate you to treat him differently.

Gildedragon

2016-06-06, 01:08 PM

A mild disagreement with the local fiend; loot needn't be special treatment; it is just tailoring their gp expenditures to help them be focused (Like giving a monk a necklace of natural attacks, or bracers of armor)
the gp given to the player ought'n't be too different from what the other party members get (I agree that special treatment ought be avoided)
Offer to brew up and item of legacy for your players if they want it
Items of legacy let ya even the playing field a bit. Don't use the penalties. Just have the GP costs... But the option for the item is open to ALL players.

Flickerdart

2016-06-06, 01:09 PM

Show him how it's done. Next mission, the party has to team up with Murderface McStab, the deadliest assassin alive. Murderface is on the same level of optimization as the rest of the party - he hits hard, hits fast, and when the enemy tries to fight back, he's nowhere to be found.

At the end of the mission, have Murderface offer to train him in the tricks of the trade - which will amount to scrolls of some spells (which he should learn properly at the earliest opportunity), some choice magic items, and recommendations for juicy PrCs and feats (ideally ones with "Special: trained by some guy" as a prerequisite).

Or he can kill Murderface and take his cool murdergear. Either way works.

Andezzar

2016-06-06, 01:09 PM

The player in question doesn't want to redo his sheet - he likes playing but hates the character building part. I don't think he wants to mess with stuff like ToB or psionics either. He seems the type who wants a more straightforward character.There isn't much fiddling to do with the conversion I proposed. You just remove a couple of skill points/level and give him a couple of powers and power points.

What are the problems with the character as is? What does the player want the character to be better at?

WarKitty

2016-06-06, 01:18 PM

There isn't much fiddling to do with the conversion I proposed. You just remove a couple of skill points/level and give him a couple of powers and power points.

What are the problems with the character as is? What does the player want the character to be better at?

Honestly, the main problem is that he really wants to play a generalist character, and feels like a character that's too focused on one thing is boring. He also doesn't really like playing with a lot of spells. What he wants to do is be the skillmonkey. It's just that with all the other characters skillmonkey isn't really a needed role.

Gildedragon

2016-06-06, 01:26 PM

Honestly, the main problem is that he really wants to play a generalist character, and feels like a character that's too focused on one thing is boring. He also doesn't really like playing with a lot of spells. What he wants to do is be the skillmonkey. It's just that with all the other characters skillmonkey isn't really a needed role.

Point him towards a binder then. Or a factotum. or even artificer. Help them make a good generalist. Binder works because they are specialists at any given moment. Factotum works because they have strong synergy between skills (int to Dex and Str, int based, has all skills) and int (int to AC, int to hit... Etc)
Condense the skill list (use PFs it is nicer for everyone)
And toss some shadowhand knicknacks their way (or make a martial factotum)
With knowledge devotion and the PF kirin style feats they can deal out some nasty damage. Let them Iaijutsu Focus and they'll be a very assassiny know-it-all type.

(Build idea: PF Sohei Master of Many Styles Monk 2 (get kung-fu genius feat)/Factotum 5/Uncanny Trickster 3)... Which isn't to say they they ought use that build, just that building a strong jack of all trades char is possible. Get him on the board, get him asking for what he wants, and seeing what can be done with the concept)

Artificer works because they always have the right tool for the job. Also they are very strong support which is a good role for generalists

hoborobot

2016-06-06, 01:34 PM

my 3.5 is a bit rusty but would you allow egg shell grenades ?

Red Fel

2016-06-06, 02:03 PM

Honestly, the main problem is that he really wants to play a generalist character, and feels like a character that's too focused on one thing is boring. He also doesn't really like playing with a lot of spells. What he wants to do is be the skillmonkey. It's just that with all the other characters skillmonkey isn't really a needed role.

So, basically, it's operating as intended. He wants the generalist, he dislikes specialists, he wants to play a skillmonkey in a party that has no use for skillmonkeys. Operating as intended.

Suppose a player told you that he wanted to play a character who disabled his enemies by tickling them with a particularly long and colorful feather. The rest of the party used longswords. Eventually, this player told you that he was frustrated that his feather was never as useful as the longswords.

Would you tell him:
that he'll get a +17 Feather of Lethality, to keep him on the level of the other players?
to buy a **** longsword?
That's the point. He has chosen a concept that is weak. He has decided that stronger concepts are boring. He has seen that his concept is obviated by the other characters, but wants to play it anyway.

There is no meaningful way to power up the concept he wants to play. Simply let him play it until frustration lets him say, "I need a change." Because until he is willing to change his concept to one that doesn't lag behind the rest of the party, his concept will not change, and therefore his relative usefulness will not improve.

He wants to play this, and he wants you to change the world so that his singular playstyle choice becomes effective. Not even once.

WarKitty

2016-06-06, 02:07 PM

The other thing I would say is that his character is the only character remaining from the original party. If he'd been making a character later I'd have steered him away more. But his character was useful in the original party, and his roles have slowly been taken over by more optimized characters in a growing group.

ExLibrisMortis

2016-06-06, 02:10 PM

I would bend the rules a little. It's no fun to play a relatively tricky low-tier build in a game with experienced artificers, clerics and druids.

My suggestion: Telflammar Shadowlord, dash of int-based swordsage, gestalt. Any sneaky build 7/Telflammar Shadowlord 6 is pretty nice, giving you improved invisibility, air walk and haste as second-level spells, plus great class features. It's a top-notch rogue PrC, but it has a crucial downside: it can only be entered at level 7, and the key ability, Shadow Pounce, comes online at ECL 11 (and Death Attack at ECL 13).

However, if one was the DM, and one was interested in rearranging as little of a player's character sheet as possible, one might augment the last four levels of their build with TSL levels, keeping the rogue/assassin skill points, class features, base attack, base saves and so forth. There is no chassis upgrade (TSL has rogue HD with only four skill points per level) but otherwise practically a gestalt build, and it's probably more balanced than anything short of straight up replacing the character with a full caster.

After that, it's two more levels of TSL (just add 8 skill points per level, it can't hurt) before you're off to finish Assassin levels, which I recommend you'd stack with TSL levels to get better casting abilities (not just the usual advancement, but stacking CL, slots, and spells known on levels that aren't next to eachother in the gestalt).

In the end, you get something like rogue 5/assassin 2//swordsage 3/telflammar shadowlord 4, going up to rogue 5/assassin 10//swordsage 3/telflammar shadowlord 6/swordsage 6. You treat the assassin and TSL levels as one block, fully advancing one spellcasting ability, one death attack, and generally pretending it's all one class.

Note that this requires no erasing, just adding a handful of maneuvers and Shadow Pounce. Actually, you probably don't even need to call it gestalt, just add those things.

pilvento

2016-06-06, 03:14 PM

Okey jack of all trades needs skills right? then he has a decent int score at least. Swap 3 Rogue lvls for Swashbuckler and use the extra feat the class gives you for Daring Outlaw, now he has the same SA dmg, plus int to dmg, plus some extra HP and BaB. Assasin needs int for spells and death attack DC so its a nice stat sinergy. There is also a prc I cant recall now, one that focuses on divine spells, skills and SA dmg, he can go for it in the later lvls to get some nice bonuses and the ability to add divine spells from other classes into his assassin list, like Hunters Eye.

You can also look for the Iron Chef post where they did the assassin PrC and show it to him.

Pluto!

2016-06-06, 03:27 PM

This post (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=buc0m771jub745pvc4jf4tap37&topic=8273.0;msg=131154) is most of the loot ideas I'd think about for dungeons. The biggest two items that I think would help him play an Assassin like an Assassin would be an Assassination weapon (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070314a) (strongly encourages setting up sneak attacks and poison use) and a Shadow Cloak from DotU, which allows him to take Nightstalker's schtick, including tricksy hit-and-run attacks and oh-****-button evasion when things get hairy.

Troacctid

2016-06-06, 03:33 PM

Being a generalist doesn't mean you can't also be extra-good at one thing. Look at bards, for example. Versatile skill monkeys, yes, but they are also one of the best party faces in the game.

Your assassin needs something that he can be better at than everyone else. No one said he has to give up his versatility to do that.

tiercel

2016-06-07, 03:50 AM

Alternatively: you ask them what they want to do and aren't able to. Then present them with options to get that. If they are dissatisfied They might enjoy the shift a light rebuild will give them.

This. It really is amazing how many problems in play can actually be resolved by actually talking to the person about the problem and what he/she actually wants.

If the problem really is "everyone does everything better than me," then figure out with your player what the character SHOULD be best at. Whether it's the sneak/scout/advance intelligence option, or precision damage, or whatever, work with your player to find a minimal rewrite (of build or equipment drops) that will allow this character to be a master of one.

At the same time, also make sure the rest of the party understands as well: the druid may be able to launch animal scouting, but in general they shouldn't be able to accomplish or report as much as an actual scout, and full-casters don't need to (and shouldn't) be loading up on divination/scouting magic when Sneaky McSneakface is on the case -- which makes that much more BFC and buffing available, for instance.

I agree with Red Fel that if this player wants a different gameplay experience, then the player should be open to talking about character aims and modest tweaks to build to get there. I disagree with Red Fel about what sounds like "let your player suffer in frustration until he learns to play 'right.' "

This is a game. If your player is not having fun (and the group as a whole is having less fun than they could be), then you want to find a solution that is fun for everyone, to the extent possible. Help your player compromise by being a master at one useful thing, while maintaining some generality, and that should make it easier for the rest of the group to not stomp all over his one thing. If everyone works with the new guy, he'll be more likely to feel like part of the team. If everyone else takes a hard "teach the newb a lesson" line, it will just be more frustrating and may cost you a player.

Darrin

2016-06-07, 07:11 AM

Seconding a drop for Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis (ToM) and Shadow Cloak (DotU). This should make him very good at sneaking. While you're in DotU, check out the Bracers of Murder as well, which will make him better at assassinating or avenging. If he has decent UMD, then drop a wand of divine insight or guidance of the avatar (http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20010504a).

But that's mostly just a band-aid. Here's the crux of the problem, as I see it: Being a good skillmonkey is *HARD*. Most of the spells that make skillmonkeys dead weight are in the 2nd to 3rd level range: knock, find traps, see invisibility, fly, etc. To do it well, you need a solid grasp of some of the more obscure 3.x subsystems: incarnum, binding, auras, equipment wankery, polymorph shenanigans, and so forth. And even if you're doing it really well... you can still be completely sidelined by a 2nd level spell.

So even if we gave this player a full rebuild into the ultimate skillmonkey, it sounds doubtful that he'd have the system mastery or the time/patience to make it really work.

And of course "talk to the player" is always good advice. At the very least, ask him to narrow down one thing he wants to do well, and then drop something that gives him a +4 in it.