Summoning Build Help + Celestial/Fiendish Summoning Specialist

[JKTrickster]

Hi guys! I'm looking to build a "Summon Monster X" focused build, and I was hoping I can come to the playground for help!

I am currently playing a Celestial Commander Summoner, ported over into 3.5 DnD. I was looking around and I found that in the Planar Handbook book, there is a feat called "Celestial Summoning Specialist". The feat allows you to add "one good-aligned creature" to the Summon list of the Summon Monster X spells.

The more popular version is probably Fiendish Summoning Specialists (because of the Malconvoker PrC). But that's besides the point.

What does one "good-aligned" creature mean? Does the alignment have to be good? Does it need the good subtype? Can I take an animal and apply the "Celestial" template (the same one for the Celestial Dog) and the new modified animal be a "good-aligned" creature? Do all of the above work?

Another question is - any good candidates for this feat? I have been playing DnD for a while, but I wouldn't even know where to begin to look. This feat looks promising (and flavorful!) but how would you know what was a good monster to add to what level? By CR? By HD? Eye-balling it? I recognize that this feat explicitly calls out for DM fiat to adjudicate what is allowed, but I would appreciate if anyone had any good starting points for valuable monsters to add to the Summon Monster list.

[dantiesilva]

Well if you mind dipping into Psion as well their is the dual plane summoning feat which allows you to apply the abilities an astral construct would gain to your summons instead. I am using it to great effect with my devil summoner. Bearded devils who rake, use their beard, deal an extra 1d4 acid damage, and normal damage all with their claws is rather nice.

[JKTrickster]

Oh wow that sounds like such a cool feat!

It'll probably be hard to work that into my build though - not much room for dips. But that's really cool. Hmm would it be possible to somehow manifest Astral Construct without dipping into another class?

I'm trying to dumpster dive for cool creatures that would fit Celestial Summoner Specialist. Got any ideas?

[dantiesilva]

Honestly never went with celestials, and as you need power points for the feat and the ability to use the power astral construct I do not think there is a way around it.

My normal build used to go Conjurer 3/ Master Specialist 4/Malconvoker 5/ Master Specalist +6/ Malconvoker +1

And I would use a bunch of third party material which if your DM is cool with can work with celestials as easily as it works for my devils. The big thing will be finding something to replace malconvoker for my build as you can use SM spells as swift actions.


Paragon Creature : All summons gain the elite array.

Legion : When you use a spell of the summoning subschool to conjure multiple creatures, such as when you use a summon monster IV spell to summon 3rd level creatures, you automatically summon the maximum number of creatures possible. So, for example, if you were to summon 1d4+1 creatures, you would automatically summon the full 5.

Summoning Focus : When summoning multiple creatures using this feat you can automatically summon one additional creature of any kind that you are capable of summoning.

Favored creatures : Select a single creature from the creature list of each tiered summoning spell you know (and will know in the future). These creatures are your favored creatures. When summoning a favored creature or creatures, these creatures are summoned with temporary hp equal to your caster level.

Essence of fire : The attacks of all your summoned creatures (both natural and manufactured) burn with elemental fire that causes an additional 1d6 points of fire damage on a successful hit.

Improved augment summoning : Each creature you summon with a conjuration (summoning) spell gains a +6 enhancement bonus to Strength and Constitution for the duration of the spell that summoned it. This bonus replaces the bonus granted by the Augment Summoning feat.

Mixed with the abilites of the classes made the character and his summons extremly useful, I am playing the newer version of him now which uses psionics mixed in with arcane casting so I took a feat called Astral fire for example (because you know devil summoner has to love fire) and basically what it does is you pay 3pp per spell level and your fire spell deals X extra damage each turn where X is the total number of damage you did the first turn divide by 5. And it lasts for a number of rounds equal to your int modifier. So If he is not summoning something, he is cooking it.

[JKTrickster]

I'm using the Celestial Commander Summoner (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/summoner/archetypes/rite-publishing---summoner-archetypes/celestial-commander) which provides some of the same goodies that the Malconvoker does, but as a base class and for good aligned summons.

It's why I'm so interested in the Celestial Summoning Specialist feat (from Planar Handbook). It lets you add one "good aligned" monster to each level of summon monster! Talk about more versatility! But my knowledge of DnD 3.5 monsters is incomplete. What would be good additions to Summon Monster at each level?

Whoa those look like cool options! Where did you find them? Favored Creature, Paragon Creature, Improved Augment Summons and Legion look really cool! Where did those feats come from?

[dantiesilva]

The class is intresting as a base class however its boosts out the most power when you summon a single creature (which when using teamwork feats which it also grants become useless as you only summoned one. The capstone ability is nice however.

The feats come from two different 3rd party books, Summoner Feats by Ewan Conradie and A Menagerie of Summoner Options by Patrick Younts. Both books pack a lot of options for summoners and if your DM allows the use of 3rd party material I would highly recomend investing in them as they add an entire new level of flavor to any summoner build.

Though to make games move faster I would make a sheet for each of your summons that you use on a constant basis with these feats, and work with your DM to make these creatures special to you. Perhaps you know them by name, or have fought great battles with them by your side. For the celestial animals perhaps you were there when they were born and helped raise them. The options are limitless when it comes to the roleplaying with these feats as it makes you WANT to make each creature unique. Or at least with me it does.

As for good summons I normally use this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?255219-The-Summoner-s-Desk-Reference-D-amp-D-3-5) made by Eggs and grab what fits theme wise with my character at each level even if it is not the best option. Eggs goes into detail about a few of the options, including summons that are introduced in other books so it is a very useful thread in my eyes. And mixed with the 3rd party books I mentioned above you can have a lot of fun with the character. I hope this helps you.

[JKTrickster]

Not summon a single creature, but a single spell. Technically you could summon from a lower list for multiple creatures.

But enough of that.


For Celestial Summon Specialist, how does this feat work? How should I determine what a "good-aligned" creature is? Does applying the Celestial template automatically make things good aligned?

[JKTrickster]

Would adding the following creatures (via Celestial Summoning Specialist) be a good idea?

Summon Monster I - Celestial Dire Rat (technically the SRD only has stats for a Fiendish Dire Rat...but rats don't have to be only evil. :smallconfused:)

Summon Monster II - Celestial Horse (I ran out of ideas. Summoning a horse to ride sounded cool and its an okay tank at least)

Summon Monster III - Guardinal, Musteval (from Book of Exalted Deeds) (It's a low CR Good Oustider. I wanted an early access to these types and this was the way to go I think)

Summon Monster IV - Guardinal, Cervidal (from Monster Manual 2) (More low CR Good Outsiders! I wanted to get something with more versatility, compared to the Beastly combat summon that is the Celestial Lion).

Summon Monster V - Guardinal, Lupinal (from Monster Manual 2) (I feel like this compares very similar to the Celestial Griffon. Trades the whole flying + dive combo for more utility and spells. Notice the trend yet :smalltongue:)

Summon Monster VI - Guardinal, Equinal (from Book of Exalted Deeds) (Getting into the slightly higher CR now, I just can't keep away from Guardinals! This is squishier and more SLA focused compared to the Celestial Griffon. Less about charging and demolishing targets, more about providing utility and support. Versatility!)

Summon Monster VII - Archon, Hammer (from Races of Stone) (it's like the slightly tougher, less SLA, flight-less version of the Guardinal, Avoral)

Summon Monster VIII - Guardinal, Ursinal (from Book of Exalted Deeds) (picking up another Guardinal to round out my list, to keep in line with all the other Guardinals I picked up. Compared to the rest of the list, Ursinal is definitely squishier, and more of a spellcaster summon than anything else. What it lacks in raw combat statistics, it makes up in spellcasting. Also with this, I get to pick up all the Guardinals! Yay! :smallbiggrin:).

Summon Monster IX - Shiradi Eladrin (from Book of Exalted Deeds) (this was one of the highest CR creatures of this Celestial type to pick up. I tried to aim for 12 - 13, but there was a problem. There's only two CR 12 creatures - the Monastic Deva and the Leonal Guardinal. I get both on my list already. And there are actually no CR 13 Celestial creatures so I had to go up to CR 14. So this guy is definitely strong - but I think he represents the pinnacle of what a Summon Monster IX can do).

[ExLibrisMortis]

Oh wow that sounds like such a cool feat!

It'll probably be hard to work that into my build though - not much room for dips. But that's really cool. Hmm would it be possible to somehow manifest Astral Construct without dipping into another class?
Hidden Talent (astral construct) with some bonus PP (maybe kalashtar) will work, but you'll have a fairly low manifester level and pp total. There's also the binder, who, apart from Zceryll, also grants some psionic vestiges, and you can get extra PP with feats and soulmelds. However, I'd sooner recommend an ardent dip, Practiced Manifester, and just taking a few levels in Cerebremancer, because that gets you useful mantle abilities and a lot more PP.

[JKTrickster]

Hidden Talent (astral construct) with some bonus PP (maybe kalashtar) will work, but you'll have a fairly low manifester level and pp total. There's also the binder, who, apart from Zceryll, also grants some psionic vestiges, and you can get extra PP with feats and soulmelds. However, I'd sooner recommend an ardent dip, Practiced Manifester, and just taking a few levels in Cerebremancer, because that gets you useful mantle abilities and a lot more PP.

Hmm I don't want to take too many levels from my class - I want to keep that part of the build pretty much constant for now.

But thanks for this piece of advice! It looks very, very optimal :smallbiggrin:



Would adding the following creatures (via Celestial Summoning Specialist) be a good idea?

Summon Monster I - Celestial Dire Rat (technically the SRD only has stats for a Fiendish Dire Rat...but rats don't have to be only evil. :smallconfused:)

Summon Monster II - Celestial Horse (I ran out of ideas. Summoning a horse to ride sounded cool and its an okay tank at least)

Summon Monster III - Guardinal, Musteval (from Book of Exalted Deeds) (It's a low CR Good Oustider. I wanted an early access to these types and this was the way to go I think)

Summon Monster IV - Guardinal, Cervidal (from Monster Manual 2) (More low CR Good Outsiders! I wanted to get something with more versatility, compared to the Beastly combat summon that is the Celestial Lion).

Summon Monster V - Guardinal, Lupinal (from Monster Manual 2) (I feel like this compares very similar to the Celestial Griffon. Trades the whole flying + dive combo for more utility and spells. Notice the trend yet :smalltongue:)

Summon Monster VI - Guardinal, Equinal (from Book of Exalted Deeds) (Getting into the slightly higher CR now, I just can't keep away from Guardinals! This is squishier and more SLA focused compared to the Celestial Griffon. Less about charging and demolishing targets, more about providing utility and support. Versatility!)

Summon Monster VII - Archon, Hammer (from Races of Stone) (it's like the slightly tougher, less SLA, flight-less version of the Guardinal, Avoral)

Summon Monster VIII - Guardinal, Ursinal (from Book of Exalted Deeds) (picking up another Guardinal to round out my list, to keep in line with all the other Guardinals I picked up. Compared to the rest of the list, Ursinal is definitely squishier, and more of a spellcaster summon than anything else. What it lacks in raw combat statistics, it makes up in spellcasting. Also with this, I get to pick up all the Guardinals! Yay! :smallbiggrin:).

Summon Monster IX - Shiradi Eladrin (from Book of Exalted Deeds) (this was one of the highest CR creatures of this Celestial type to pick up. I tried to aim for 12 - 13, but there was a problem. There's only two CR 12 creatures - the Monastic Deva and the Leonal Guardinal. I get both on my list already. And there are actually no CR 13 Celestial creatures so I had to go up to CR 14. So this guy is definitely strong - but I think he represents the pinnacle of what a Summon Monster IX can do).

Do you have any opinions on this? How does this look?