Player Fu is weak.. Suggestions?

[HolyDraconus]

So in a campaign I'm running, it was let on that the players were more than what they think they are. I thought they was pretty good with what they was doing so far, till I threw a monster I was fairly certain they should of been able to handle.... THE monstrous crab. No alterations to it, just vanilla. They was level 7, almost 8. But after rolling initiative and the crab getting a natural 20 (seriously) to it, it literally two shot the fighter and retreated. The fighter is destroyed (-4 hp but was undead to begin with) and they (wisely) ran from a Drowned that was summoned on board a ship heading for a plot that didn't matter anymore. Normally I don't tell players what they need to do in terms of optimizations, and give them PLENTY of opportunities to buy pretty much literally any magical item that they feel that they may need (like seriously) but outside of forcing it on them, they don't really take advantage of it. So should I just dump loads of gear on them cause they DO need it, or should I continue to allow them to make their own mistakes? They have +1 and +2 gear, with bags of holding III but that's it. At lvl 7.

And for the curious, party was small, but has a lvl 4/3 SwordSage/Psychic Rogue, lvl 6/2 Barbarian/Druid (who picked up sharkskin armor in the same campaign...), and lvl 6/2 Fighter/Bard (dead.) All characters are templated, with level adjustments and racial hit die (if any) waved.

[Gildedragon]

Three words:
Dice are fickle

You can make them less random by using bell-curve rolls

[HolyDraconus]

Three words:
Dice are fickle

You can make them less random by using bell-curve rolls

That reasoning only works so far. When players don't actively seek ways to increase wealth (they aren't murder hobos?!), or loot corpses, and continually get in such situations (the fighter is an undead because the swordsage killed him with a desert wind manuever while the battlefield was covered in greater darkness) then outside of handing them the encounter its pretty bad.

[Kelvarius]

Give them a rich patron questgiver NPC.

Tailor the rewards for what you think they need.

[Strigon]

First off, are you completely certain this is such an issue? You gave the example of the party not fighting something, and a creature getting a couple of lucky blows and killing one person. That alone is not cause for concern.

Now, assuming these are just a couple examples, and they are consistently over their heads, it seems you and the players are at different power levels. This means you can either buff the players, or nerf the encounters. Buffing the players works to a point, and they'll probably appreciate it, but as the party levels up it will take more and more system mastery to keep being effective, gear or no gear.

This brings us to the second option; nerfing encounters. Or, rather, making them less directly lethal. The party seems to know when to run away, so while bringing the fights down a tick wouldn't hurt, might I recommend making more use of multiple opponents? Whenever you have one large, beefy character, things are more prone to being swayed by luck; a single crit can finish an otherwise healthy PC. By having four or five weaker opponents, you ensure that one lucky hit doesn't end the fight - your players should have more time to recognize the fight isn't going their way, and take appropriate actions.

[Gildedragon]

That reasoning only works so far. When players don't actively seek ways to increase wealth (they aren't murder hobos?!), or loot corpses, and continually get in such situations (the fighter is an undead because the swordsage killed him with a desert wind manuever while the battlefield was covered in greater darkness) then outside of handing them the encounter its pretty bad.

Gear:
Have their gear level up with them (weapons of legacy could be a good guideline)
Have them find caches of stuff

Encounters:
Give them social things, the dead-fighter thing is pure roleplay or chaosplay you can't accidentally hit someone else by the rules (so that death is wholly on you)... Or it was intentional pvp and you allowed it (again: on you)

[Honest Tiefling]

My advice is to dump the gear onto them. They don't seem to enjoy being murderhobos, so please, for the sake of anyone who might play with them in the future, don't encourage it! (unless this is the type of game you wish to run, of course!)

The idea of a rich patron is one I shall second. If they are behaving like normal people, let them enjoy the benefits of such like being able to interact with them.

I do worry there's a bit of them being overwhelmed or not enjoying combing through books to get gear. (I personally hate it, for instance.) However, present the loot to them in a fun way. Don't just have the patron give it to them. No, no, he summons his court mage to present it to them in an ivory-inlaid box, and then he summons the court bard to recount the tale of how his far flung (and contested) ancestor forged the blade from the scales of a white dragon he had defeated with nothing but an oar. It isn't JUST an enchanted sword, it is a steel sword with an odd silvery tinge to it that seems cold to the touch, etc. etc. I think you get the idea, dress up the occasion and the item to make it seem more like a reward.

[HolyDraconus]

Give them a rich patron questgiver NPC.

Tailor the rewards for what you think they need.That's pretty much what I think may have to be done. They aren't complete novice ( one of them turned down the idea of stealing a boat when none of them are competent with sailing) but besides knowing enough of the rules to play, they don't enough to op fu.


First off, are you completely certain this is such an issue? You gave the example of the party not fighting something, and a creature getting a couple of lucky blows and killing one person. That alone is not cause for concern.I didn't mention it in the OP but that was NOT the first time a party wipe almost happened. They tripped an Endless Summoning Trap, picked a fight with an ancient Colossal + Silver* (it was pretending to be Silver, was actually gold) dragon, got nearly destroyed by kobolds, and was forced to retreat from Bugbears. They need gear and tactics. Tactics can be learned but takes time. Gear is a quick fix til they get there. Problem is, they don't know what they may or may not need. Worse, they ASKED me as DM to NOT pull punches. Hence my dilemma and plea.

Now, assuming these are just a couple examples, and they are consistently over their heads, it seems you and the players are at different power levels. This means you can either buff the players, or nerf the encounters. Buffing the players works to a point, and they'll probably appreciate it, but as the party levels up it will take more and more system mastery to keep being effective, gear or no gear. Characters were buffed with templates specifically for what they wished to do, with level adjustments and or hit die waved. The half fey doesn't take the d6 to all hit die for starters, unless its beneficial. It keeps everything else. The Fey'ri gets DR and its abilites. The (dead...er) Death Knight retained pretty much everything but a hit to the range on its call undead ability. They was buffed. Enemies were nerfed. But this is level 7 encounters. Buffs only works so far.

This brings us to the second option; nerfing encounters. Or, rather, making them less directly lethal. The party seems to know when to run away, so while bringing the fights down a tick wouldn't hurt, might I recommend making more use of multiple opponents? Whenever you have one large, beefy character, things are more prone to being swayed by luck; a single crit can finish an otherwise healthy PC. By having four or five weaker opponents, you ensure that one lucky hit doesn't end the fight - your players should have more time to recognize the fight isn't going their way, and take appropriate actions.Kobolds. Bugbears. And lvl 2 deep gnomes. Multiple enemies I fear isn't enough to save them.Responded in quotes.


Gear:
Have their gear level up with them (weapons of legacy could be a good guideline)
Have them find caches of stuff

Encounters:
Give them social things, the dead-fighter thing is pure roleplay or chaosplay you can't accidentally hit someone else by the rules (so that death is wholly on you)... Or it was intentional pvp and you allowed it (again: on you)
You... can actually. See Fireball. The ability used does NOT exclude allies. Hatchling's Flame I think, and the fighter at THAT point in time was grappled and was rendered unconscious (at -1). Was hit to -12 after the flame. Dead. Ritual was used to bring him back as a Death Knight. Was killed by Monstrous Crab.

My advice is to dump the gear onto them. They don't seem to enjoy being murderhobos, so please, for the sake of anyone who might play with them in the future, don't encourage it! (unless this is the type of game you wish to run, of course!)

The idea of a rich patron is one I shall second. If they are behaving like normal people, let them enjoy the benefits of such like being able to interact with them.

I do worry there's a bit of them being overwhelmed or not enjoying combing through books to get gear. (I personally hate it, for instance.) However, present the loot to them in a fun way. Don't just have the patron give it to them. No, no, he summons his court mage to present it to them in an ivory-inlaid box, and then he summons the court bard to recount the tale of how his far flung (and contested) ancestor forged the blade from the scales of a white dragon he had defeated with nothing but an oar. It isn't JUST an enchanted sword, it is a steel sword with an odd silvery tinge to it that seems cold to the touch, etc. etc. I think you get the idea, dress up the occasion and the item to make it seem more like a reward.Yeah, dumping gear may be the way to go.
But they asked me not to pull punches.... So wouldn't me just GIVING them gear, instead of them doing their own OpFu be pulling them? And yes, everyone is enjoying the campaign (even the NOW dead Fighter... again..)

[AslanCross]

Isn't the monstrous crab pretty notorious for being extremely deadly for its CR anyway? It's not really a good baseline for establishing the level of play. It's the kind of thing you unleash on parties to punish them.

[HolyDraconus]

Isn't the monstrous crab pretty notorious for being extremely deadly for its CR anyway? It's not really a good baseline for establishing the level of play. It's the kind of thing you unleash on parties to punish them.

At the CR listed, YES, its notorious. Remember though, I said level 7 (some 8!) players. Two of which had ongoing buffs of one thing or another, with all of them capable of killing the damn thing in a standard attack routine of some sort. And again, that is just ONE listed encounter. The Summoning Trap could of been disabled or flat out evaded. The kobolds had 0 (count em, NONE) class levels. They almost died to that one too. And nothing can explain the Silver* Dragon Fiasco.

[CGNefarious]

So basically you want the party to be stronger than it actually is. You're giving them encounters you feel are level appropriate and they keep failing them hard. So the simple solution is to just tone down the encounters. Pretend like they're all a level or two lower than they are, until you find a power level that works well.

Or you could try boosting their power, but since you don't control the PCs, they have much more say in that than you do. Throw items and gold at them all day, but if their idea of a fun PC is suboptimal, then that's the direction they will take.

Is the high level of challenge really even a problem? Some players like a high mortality game. If they seem to be enjoying it as is and no one is complaining about the difficulty, you could always just leave things the way they are. There is a reason that Dark Souls is so popular.

Either way, I hope you find a proper solution. I'd go with the first, as you have by far the most control with it, but I'm also always a fan of giving the PCs nice things. Maybe throw in a few mythic levels here and there and just not account for it when designing encounters. I'm sure absolutely nothing bad will come of it.

[HolyDraconus]

So basically you want the party to be stronger than it actually is. You're giving them encounters you feel are level appropriate and they keep failing them hard. So the simple solution is to just tone down the encounters. Pretend like they're all a level or two lower than they are, until you find a power level that works well.

Or you could try boosting their power, but since you don't control the PCs, they have much more say in that than you do. Throw items and gold at them all day, but if their idea of a fun PC is suboptimal, then that's the direction they will take.

Is the high level of challenge really even a problem? Some players like a high mortality game. If they seem to be enjoying it as is and no one is complaining about the difficulty, you could always just leave things the way they are. There is a reason that Dark Souls is so popular.

Either way, I hope you find a proper solution. I'd go with the first, as you have by far the most control with it, but I'm also always a fan of giving the PCs nice things. Maybe throw in a few mythic levels here and there and just not account for it when designing encounters. I'm sure absolutely nothing bad will come of it.

Not familiar with mythic levels, been DnD only so far, and while I have the vast majority of 3.5 (and some 3.0 books... Fullblade, I miss you) I have nothing on Pathfinder. They are enjoying themselves, and the only strife really is party wise, which I can't really do anything about. But basically, the best I can do from what I'm gathering so far... is ignore the players anyway, and pull punches. Funny you mention Dark Souls though....
However, its not that I FEEL the encounters are level appropriate (well, the ones I actually meant for them to fight. That Silver Dragon thing was beyond stupid), its that they ARE. Three 7th level characters should easily destroy 10 no level kobolds.

[Crake]

They have +1 and +2 gear, with bags of holding III but that's it. At lvl 7.

a type 3 bag of holding is 7,400gp, a +2 weapon is 8300gp, a +1 armor and shield is 2300gp, that comes up to 18,000gp, leaving about 1000gp change for consumable items or the like. Considering level 7 WBL is 19,000gp, they're about where they should be, you're making it sound like they're agregiously below WBL?

[Mechalich]

Your party is only 3 people and is primarily martial. You're looking at 23 levels of mostly weak classes that are, unless the build synergy is awesome in ways that aren't instantly apparent, are probably being weakened more by multiclassing than strengthened by it. This is a weak party and regardless of gear is going to only get weaker over time unless the martial focused characters transition to their spellcasting classes more heavily.

Ultimately, a party of 3 characters is hurt significantly in the action economy anyway, and that's probably the easiest thing to solve. You can just give them a level-equivalent NPC to support them. A divine caster with a buff spells + healing focus can make them much more capable while still avoiding hogging the spotlight in obvious ways. Properly utilized such a character should never have to attack. Also, NPC support is easy to take away if it becomes too powerful, in a way gear generally isn't.

[HolyDraconus]

a type 3 bag of holding is 7,400gp, a +2 weapon is 8300gp, a +1 armor and shield is 2300gp, that comes up to 18,000gp, leaving about 1000gp change for consumable items or the like. Considering level 7 WBL is 19,000gp, they're about where they should be, you're making it sound like they're agregiously below WBL?

If you read the WBL chart, it even states that the numbers given are low due to being static and NOT accounting for actual adventuring, which would dramatically inflate that number. A fresh level 7 char vs a char that has been adventuring since level 1 all the way to level 7 SHOULD have vastly different amounts of wealth, since you just find crap to sell. In the case of this current campaign however, they don't loot bodies, check for chests, secret rooms or hidden items. Even the items that they DO have ( like the bags of holding and +1 armors) they only have it because the crew they were running with was reasonably powerful at that point. They DO have enough disposable income ( with liberal usage of at will Charm Person... gotta love Half Fey) But I promise you, if I did a douche move and threw something like a Half Fire elemental Troll at them, they would NOT be able to kill it, and it would party wipe them. I dislike DPCs but outside of a prince they haven't decided what to do with, their combat prowess is there own.
I don't know. I'm just not sure what's best to help them at times.

Your party is only 3 people and is primarily martial. You're looking at 23 levels of mostly weak classes that are, unless the build synergy is awesome in ways that aren't instantly apparent, are probably being weakened more by multiclassing than strengthened by it. This is a weak party and regardless of gear is going to only get weaker over time unless the martial focused characters transition to their spellcasting classes more heavily.

Ultimately, a party of 3 characters is hurt significantly in the action economy anyway, and that's probably the easiest thing to solve. You can just give them a level-equivalent NPC to support them. A divine caster with a buff spells + healing focus can make them much more capable while still avoiding hogging the spotlight in obvious ways. Properly utilized such a character should never have to attack. Also, NPC support is easy to take away if it becomes too powerful, in a way gear generally isn't. You see it too! That's exactly what I see! I dislike discouraging players from playing what they like, but I DID tell them that a good party isn't all fighters. The swordsage has no idea what she's going for. She's alive due to currently a good AC (high Dex and Wis), the, now dead, fighter wanted to focus on both halberd and shield (which didn't work out too well since either A. he dropped it for his sword regardless of where the enemy is whenever a teammate draws one, and he does better with the Halberd {+2} or B. is usually using a hand crossbow... with nothing to really help him outside of his fighter BAB) with the Barb planning on going some kind of Beastmaster route.
The fighter did reroll into a cleric after the others threw books at him when he wanted to play a ninja. A gnome cleric.... yup... Currently the prince is being made out to be a fairly weak spellcaster, but I'm trying not to over shadow the party (He's a Beguiler, with a favorite spell {forgot the feat} of Detect Evil).
Honestly I'm torn. I have been catering to the group, they are having a blast, but I just don't think this campaign can hit above 12 without some severe nerfing on my end.

[HolyDraconus]

double post... yuck

[AslanCross]

At the CR listed, YES, its notorious. Remember though, I said level 7 (some 8!) players. Two of which had ongoing buffs of one thing or another, with all of them capable of killing the damn thing in a standard attack routine of some sort. And again, that is just ONE listed encounter. The Summoning Trap could of been disabled or flat out evaded. The kobolds had 0 (count em, NONE) class levels. They almost died to that one too. And nothing can explain the Silver* Dragon Fiasco.

Hmm. It's strange that they don't actually loot the corpses, so yeah I think it might be a good idea to actually give them the gear. Have a mysterious patron send them a package. It might also be actually good to get the players on board on this---"Hey guys, if your character were to have really cool gear, what would you want?"

[Kelvarius]

Three 7th level characters should easily destroy 10 no level kobolds.

Not necessarily. Ever hear of Tucker's Kobolds?

But in all seriousness, I'm curious on what happened there, because you're right. In a normal fight, they should have been practically untouchable barring extreme luck.

Also, are you sure they aren't new? I mean, I understand that people will purposely pick certain feats/gear/etc based on role play and not optimizing. That's great. But I've never met someone like that which did so to the point of making their character practically useless.

I know some people that have "played D&D for years," which sounds like they'd be super experienced and know what they're doing. But when you look at the details, you find out that of those years, there are long stretches of months in between playing (So nothing is retained), or maybe they only played campaigns that fell apart after one session (So they haven't really learned anything beyond making the initial character. No knowledge of what works and what doesn't), or some other thing that doesn't actually add up to what they say.

[Zanos]

Not necessarily. Ever hear of Tucker's Kobolds?
Tucker's Kobolds would have a large CR adjustment due to using tactics that are unusual for a typical encounter, and highly advantageous terrain. It's in the DMG.

On topic, do your players typically optimize? An undead template on a frontliner isn't typical due to the loss of HP, and the item selection is pretty poor. You might want to point out comparable items that aren't as pricey, such as a Handy Haversack instead of a back of holding. I will say that your situation is unusual, and probably not your fault. Monstrous Crab is considered obscene for CR 3, but a party of level 7/8 characters shouldn't really have trouble with it unless their optimization is below WotC standard(which is pretty horrendous).

[Crake]

If you read the WBL chart, it even states that the numbers given are low due to being static and NOT accounting for actual adventuring, which would dramatically inflate that number. A fresh level 7 char vs a char that has been adventuring since level 1 all the way to level 7 SHOULD have vastly different amounts of wealth, since you just find crap to sell.

Can you please point me to the section where it says that? Because reading it it says the WBL chart is:


based onaverage treasures found in average encounters compared with the experience points earned in those encounters. Using that information, you can determine how much wealth a character should have based on her level.
The baseline campaign for the D&D game uses this “wealth by level” guideline as a basis for balance in adventures.

So both a "fresh" level 7 character, and one who's been adventuring since level 1 should have the same amount of stuff, though arguably the "fresh" character would be better geared because all their equipment would be tailored, unless the adventuring guy has access to a decent magic mart or has been getting tailored loot.

Now admittedly, everyone having their own bag of holding is a bit overkill and a waste of resources, I'll give you that, but how much are you expecting them to have at this point really? A +2 weapon, a +2 ability item, some +1 armor, maybe a +1 or 2 cloak of resistance and that's it for level 7.

[Liquor Box]

Perhaps allow each character to have a cohort, one or two levels lower, so each player controls two characters. That should increase class diversity and overall party strength, as well as giving theme a backup for when a character does die.

[illyahr]

The problem I have with this is that it sounds like your players are honestly having fun and you are the one with the problem. Sure, they may want to run a party entirely made up of CW Samurai, but if they are enjoying themselves then that's all you can ask for. Now everyone should be having fun, including the DM, but you might want to take a step back and just let them enjoy the game that they are playing.

[martixy]

Well... your job is to adapt to them.

TBH, if near-TPK encounters aren't frequent I think you're doing a fine job so far.
They asked you not to pull punches, and as long as you're not hammering them with ONLY tough encounters, I seems to me, you're exactly where they want you to be.

If DMing for an underpowered party is a personal pet peeve of yours, just up the WBL by 20-30% and dispense some strategically appropriate bonuses - a +2 to an important stat here and there, a feat or two that you know would work well with their builds, stuff like that.

[HolyDraconus]

Well... your job is to adapt to them.

TBH, if near-TPK encounters aren't frequent I think you're doing a fine job so far.
They asked you not to pull punches, and as long as you're not hammering them with ONLY tough encounters, I seems to me, you're exactly where they want you to be.

If DMing for an underpowered party is a personal pet peeve of yours, just up the WBL by 20-30% and dispense some strategically appropriate bonuses - a +2 to an important stat here and there, a feat or two that you know would work well with their builds, stuff like that.

After reviewing the tapes (well, more like audio logs), I am pretty sure gear won't help the answer. I dislike any form of divine interventions though, cause players get upset with that. I guess tactics is about the best I can hope for. Ah well.

[Tohsaka Rin]

The problem I have with this is that it sounds like your players are honestly having fun and you are the one with the problem. Sure, they may want to run a party entirely made up of CW Samurai, but if they are enjoying themselves then that's all you can ask for. Now everyone should be having fun, including the DM, but you might want to take a step back and just let them enjoy the game that they are playing.

I just want to second this.

Sure, having cunning, well-armed, combat-savvy players is nice, but if they're having fun, and NOT constantly derailing the game with OOC hijinx (seriously, check one of the other active threads on here, one poor DM has what seems to be an entire group using DnD as an excuse to sit around and NOT play DnD), then you should focus on encouraging more role play, and such.

There's nothing wrong with low-balling all the encounters. If the players are more into playing than fighting, work with that, as long as it isn't infuriating you.