Building a better Holy Gun

[Gruzzle]

I've not been able to find a Pathfinder game for some time (like 4 years) and I long ago stopped keeping up with errata and updates. Fortune has smiled on me and I've been able to secure a seat at a campaign that's beginning soon. The AP is one I'd never heard of before called Wrath of the Righteous. I'm also told this will include mythic levels, which I know precisely squat about. The DM has said she will be emailing us a copy of the Player's Guide for this AP soon, but the tl:dr is that we're gonna go to war with a demon invasion. She said to go re-watch Battle: Los Angeles, to get an idea of scope. So we have to be Good-aligned. I got to thinking about what I ought to play and since I'm returning to Pathfinder, I wanted to play a gunslinger of some type. I was told this is a paladin-friendly campaign, and our DM said that more than one paladin in the party will be just fine, and very flavorful. So I thought of the Holy Gun archetype.

Turns out, apparently from some google searches, that the Holy Gun archetype is broken/bad. So most folks are saying that a better option in the same spirit is to take Mysterious Stranger Gunsling at level 1 then take the rest of your levels as a Divine Hunter Paladin. So this is the goal, but I feel like I need more info on how to proceed. I've googled this and have seen some bits and pieces of how to make this work.

Stat Priority: Dex>Cha>Wis>Con>Str>Int

Feat progression: 1 Point Blank Shot, Rapid Reload (pistol), 2 Precise Shot (bonus), 3 Rapid Shot, 5 Deadly Aim, 7. Cluster Shot.... from here?

The extra level 1 feat assumes Human, but I've also considered Azata-blooded Assimar? The extra level 1 feat is just so strong though...
Also, pistol seems to be the go-to choice for mysterious strangers so that's what my rapid reload is for. But I like rolling big dmg die, so is musket/rifle viable? Or is the reload times going to be crippling too much? How rough would it be to swap out Mysterious Stranger for Musket Master? If that's feasible, I presume we go 5 levels in Musket Master and the rest as Divine Hunter? I'm partial to the long-gun idea, but Mostly I just want to be able to blow away demons with a gun all campaign long.

Also looking at Traits, I like Friend in Every Town, fluff wise. I imagine I will be one of, if not the highest Cha in the party so it could also help fulfill the face of the party role. But Reactionary to help go first, catching folk flat-footed is good. Also, Dangerously Curious seems crazy useful, though I think we're gonna have a rogue in the party?

For those familiar with the AP, would this character be useful? Also, what should I know/ plan for when it comes to Mythic-ness? All other tips/tricks/pointers/criticism is majorly appreciated.

[Geddy2112]

Yeah, holy gun is a pile of failure, sadness, hot garbage, and utterly ruins such an awesome concept. Mysterious stranger 1/paladin is a solid mix, although there are other ways to pack heat. I do agree to keep a pistol over a rifle, unless you go musket master in which case you will need wisdom. Consider the dune drifter caviler archetype-it gives you a gun and bases your grit off charisma instead of wisdom, and it will give you a stacking mount if you want a divine bond-mount. Otherwise the mount will be kinda weak, even with boon companion. It also gives you the ability to have quick clear, which is a major handicap of the mysterious stranger. If you go mysterious stranger, have a backup for when your gun jams, and it will if you are using alchemical cartridges. Divine hunter is okay for a few levels, but it is better as a paladin dip as it starts to suck hard around level 3(unless your entire party is ranged shooting). I would go vanilla paladin or just a couple levels pally and maybe a third option.

The fastest way to get dex to damage on a gun is 3 levels in trench fighter fighter archetype, complete with the awesome bonus feats. If you decide to go this route and pick up fighter ranks, pick a complimentary archatype that tosses bravery since you will be immune to feat at level 3. Blackjack, armor master, savage warrior, and vengeful hunter all bring minor, but better boons to the table. Mysterious stranger has to wait till level 9 for dex to damage, but will have dex and cha to damage. Keep in mind that you can't stack cha to damage twice from the mysterious stranger focused aim and smite, so you won't need focused aim as much, but it can still do a ton of damage if you can add dex and cha.

For stats, your wisdom does not need to be very high if you plan on going paladin. Not only do they have good will saves, but you get cha to saves, so wis is really a dump stat. You probably don't want int less than 10, even as a human, with only 2 skill ranks. 10 con is fine since you have good hit dice and fort saves, and dump strength as low as you can for carrying capacity-avoid this outright by having the BSF or mount hold your crap at lower levels, then a handy haversack and never worry about it again.

Feats are fine, improved initiative is always good if you need something. Greater mercy is okay, but it unlocks ultimate mercy, which is pretty good if you don't have a cleric in the party to raise dead/resurrect(and no material component, but you will need it for the restoration spell to get em back to full level).

Reactionary is probably the best trait in the game. Also consider magical knack to make your paladin spells stronger. You have diplomacy and knowledge: local as class skills so you don't need friend in every town. Dangerously curious does give you UMD, which is by far the best skill in the game and CHA based, but you won't have many skill ranks to max more then a few skills.

[Secret Wizard]

Dex to damage is overrated.

As a straight Pally, you'd do more damage out of Divine Bond advancement and Smite damage.

[stack]

Oath of vengeance is really nice to have in general, but even more so when 90+% of your enemies will be evil like in WotR. My archer paladin was quite effective.

If you can work out the loading issues (race with a tail is handy) dual wielding pistols is a strong long term strategy. Less so early on. Champion path is probably your best bet, if nothing else you can get good movement and not provoke with ranged attacks.

[Florian]

@Gruzzle:

You should look at the Mythic Rules first, then base your actual build on it second.
Mythic Ranks will allow you to pick mythic versions of basic feats, greatly upgrading them. You´ll also find that guns are not overly supported with the Mythic Rules, so you won´t get full mileage out of them when compared to other, more traditional weapons.

It´s also a question on which Mythic Path to chose and how to incorporate that into the overall build.
Two other important questions are if the Paladin should double as party healer and, as this AP uses them, who es equipping his character for using the mass battle rules?

[the_david]

You're going to play Wrath of the Righteous and you worry about playing a broken character? Isn't WotW the one adventurepath where you end up with a broken character anyway?

[Gruzzle]

@Gruzzle:

You should look at the Mythic Rules first, then base your actual build on it second.
Mythic Ranks will allow you to pick mythic versions of basic feats, greatly upgrading them. You´ll also find that guns are not overly supported with the Mythic Rules, so you won´t get full mileage out of them when compared to other, more traditional weapons.

It´s also a question on which Mythic Path to chose and how to incorporate that into the overall build.
Two other important questions are if the Paladin should double as party healer and, as this AP uses them, who es equipping his character for using the mass battle rules?

Ok, I have today off, so I'll go find the open source info on mythic. Any tips for a character who could be awesome using mass battle rules? Personally I enjoy social RP situations almost as much as combat and easily slip into the party face roll, so I prefer classes that don't dump charisma. Hence my interest in Mysterious Stranger/Divine Hunter. Someone who can lay down the pain in combat and still schmooze with the NPCs well. I may end up with a sub-optimized paladin anyway, but the last time I played Pathfinder, Ultimate Combat was the cool new book, so I know there has been a bunch of new classes, errata and archetypes that I know practically nothing about. So any things that you guys recommend I will research at length. Especially any recommended builds for this AP. If the mythic stuff doesn't support gunplay much, I'm gonna be super bummed. But most ranged feats work with guns? I dunno, I'll read up and get back to ya.

[Florian]

Ok, I have today off, so I'll go find the open source info on mythic. Any tips for a character who could be awesome using mass battle rules? Personally I enjoy social RP situations almost as much as combat and easily slip into the party face roll, so I prefer classes that don't dump charisma. Hence my interest in Mysterious Stranger/Divine Hunter. Someone who can lay down the pain in combat and still schmooze with the NPCs well. I may end up with a sub-optimized paladin anyway, but the last time I played Pathfinder, Ultimate Combat was the cool new book, so I know there has been a bunch of new classes, errata and archetypes that I know practically nothing about. So any things that you guys recommend I will research at length. Especially any recommended builds for this AP. If the mythic stuff doesn't support gunplay much, I'm gonna be super bummed. But most ranged feats work with guns? I dunno, I'll read up and get back to ya.

You´ll find both, Mythic Adventures and Ultimate Campaign (mass battle rules) on the Paizo PRD: http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/

Will write a bit more on that after my lunch break.

[Arutema]

Have you considered being (at least partially) a mounted, gunslinging champion of good without levels in paladin (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/ArchetypeDisplay.aspx?FixedName=Cavalier%20Spellsc ar%20Drifter)? It's buried somewhere in the PFS clarifications guide, but Paizo has said that the cavalier's challenge works with the Spellscar Drifter's gun. Even a 1-level dip in a paladin build would get you a starting firearm, Cha-based grit, and a first-level deed.

[Florian]

Sorry, wanted to answer earlier.

The thing with gun-based ranged combat simply is that it is a feat and class-feature hog until all features come online and are functional. The return of investment here is that this style of combat gets the most out of iterative attacks compared to other styles.The sweet spots here are between levels 6 and 12 before diminishing returns set it.

The problem with guns and this AP is DR. It´s simply a shame when you have to rely on luck to beat the DR of a simple enemy like a Dretch or Quasit.

In contrast, the Paladin class is good at two things: Burst damage and In-Combat Healing.

Before going deeper into that, the question still remains unanswered which actual role the character should take in this particular AP.

[Gruzzle]

Well, regarding DR I've looked up two options. One is that at level 14 (yikes that's a ways off) the Divine Hunter paladin archetype gets Righteous Hunter, giving my ranged attacks good-alignment for overcoming DR. I imagine this'll work well in the AP. The other option is one I am surprised and reticent about. Holy Gun archetype. Now this Holy Shot ability can only be used as often as I have grit points AND it replaces my smite evil. But if I start with one level in Mysterious Stranger, then my Grit pool ought to be pretty decent. Amateur Gunslinger reads that if I take a level in gunslinger I can immediately convert that feat to Extra Grit, so in theory at level 2, assuming a wisdom score of 14, I should have 4 grit points. This would allow for significantly more Holy Shots, especially at low level, than Smite Evil. I do understand that the down side to Holy shot is that it only affects a single attack, where as Smite Evil is an effect on the character as long as your target lives. Thing is, I don't think things are gonna live long enough for me to attack it 4 times. So I ought to be able to Holy shot a couple different targets throughout the adventuring day, AND with kills and crits I can regain the grit. Right? So is Mysterious Stranger into Holy Gun actually reasonable here? Or is Holy Gun archetype still terrible?

[stack]

Holy gun is still terrible. Oath of vengeance gets you more smites, which will get you through the day better. You won't be amazing against mooks, but bigger targets will fear you. I played the first book and then some with an archer paladin, guns shouldn't be that far off other than needing more feats and hitting touch AC so you can deadly aim (mythic deadly aim!) and (mythic) rapid shot to your hearts content.

My DM was nice enough to let me trade medium and heavy armor for a ranged feat, made low levels easier.

[Florian]

It´s still terrible.

Let´s be concrete about points of comparison: Human Paladin VMC Oracle (Life Mystery), Hierophant Mythic Path, Greatsword as Divine Bond.

This Paladin will simply sport Power Attack (M), Improved Critical (M), Critical Focus (M), Channel Smite, Greater Mercy and Ultimate Mercy.

Hierophant Path abilities are equally simple, starting with Channel Shockwave, Overflowing Grace, Relentless Healer, Fast Healing and going from there.

This simple healer build is a crit-fisher and will simply tear through enemies while keeping the team alive.
When playing Mythic, anything below that level or performance is simply bad and should be avoided. Sadly, the Holy Gun does not even come close to it.

[Gruzzle]

Ok, that build doesn't sound terrible, but I'm kinda looking to be a ranged damage dealer role. The party already has a Sorceress, Sword and Board Paladin (or Fighter, but lets be honest, this is the campaign to play a paladin), and a (melee) cleric. There are 6 players total, the other two are talking about a wizard and a rogue respectively. I guess I don't mind just going straight gunslinger (if I do, it'll be musket master) but I also understand that the AP isn't very supportive of gunslingers. Hence my plan to go Gunslinger (MS) 1/ Paladin (DH) 19. I could just find my Dwarven Ranger (switch-hitter build) that I made ages ago. I would appreciate any tips to building an effective ranged damage dealer that will do well for this AP.

[grarrrg]

I do understand that the down side to Holy shot is that it only affects a single attack

Not just a 'single attack', but it can only be used as a Standard Action.
That's what outright kills the Holy Gun at mid/high levels.

Early levels (before you can make multiple attacks) Holy Gun closer to average. It makes some trades but it isn't the worst you could do (I'd say low level Holy Gun is still better than low level Empyreal Knight).
But once you get your Rapid Reload+Cartridges, and "full attack" actually means something, then Holy Gun falls hard, and fast.

You can -slightly- extend the life of it by using a Scatter-gun > Smiting Shot applies on the -attack-, not the -target-.
But again, once you can make a full attack, you're better off taking a different archetype.

[Florian]

@Gruzzle:

That example was simply to give you a benchmark on what minimum performance can be expected from a Paladin right now. Anything that performs lower than that is pretty much crap.

Archery-based Paladins are quite common (Divine Hunter) and usually manage to shift into high gear at around level 7 when a full attack will allow to fire 4 arrows and Litany of Righteousness becomes available (swift action cast to flat double your damage). Keep in mind that you will usually have the Fate´s Favored trait and pack a wand of Divine Favor and maybe have the Unsanctioned Knowledge feat and get Wrath covered with a wand, too. Special mention goes to an often overlooked property of Smite Evil - The first hit (not attack!) against an evil outsider gains double CHA bonus on damage. Now tie these elements together to see what damage profile a Paladin can have, where the actual damage comes from and why you don´t want to lose more Paladin levels than absolutely necessary.

So, guns. The only thing you need Grit for is using Quick Clear on a jam and that should not be the case too often (if it is, go have a serious talk with your dice). For all practical purposes, that means that you can manage to get by with the Amateur Gunslinger feat. As shown above, a dedicated casting Paladin can manage to stack an ungodly amount of buffs to easily compensate for the missing damage attribute on guns/x-bows. The important thing here really is to go heavily into spellcasting and push CHA hard.

So the best basis for this would be a plain vanilla Oath of Vengeance Paladin, Human for the bonus feat (Amateur Gunslinger) doing the basic PBS, Rapid Shot, Rapid Reload, Deadly Aim thing first, then following up with Unsanctioned Knowledge and simply more Extra Lay on Hands to convert into Smite Evil after that. Divine Bond will naturally go on the rifle so you can gain Holy and Bane as fast as possible.
CHA should start at 20 and gain the +2 boost when going Mythic.

As for Mythic feats and Paths, you´re practically set at this point. Feats will go into reinforcing what you already have, with Rapid Reload (M) doing away with the need for Alchemical Cartridges (That´s why it´d be my first pick) followed by Deadly Aim (M) to get a grip on basic damage dealt.

From then on, it´s a toss-up between Champion and Marshal. Personally, I´d rather go for a Marshal build, maybe Tactician, as enough melees are present and a gun-Paladin doesn´t do much besides continually full attacking.

[stack]

Precise shot is in the mix of necessary feats unless you are starting at high levels. 20 charisma may be difficult to start with as well. The AP runs from level 1 normally, even with touch attacks you won't hit much with poor dex and penalties for firing into melee. Less of an issue later of course.

[Florian]

Less of an issue, actually. You take Fate´s Favored to add another +1 on all kinds of luck bonus you get. Divine Favor is +1 luck bonus to hit and damage/3 levels. So even the basic CL1 wand will constantly net you +2 hit/dmg, offsetting half the firing into melee penalty by itself. Add in the ability of guns to target touch AC and you´re good at that point.

20 Charisma is actually not that difficult with a Paladin, as you can dump WIS hard and not feel any difference by doing so (followed by INT if needed). The important part here simply is that Paladin spells and spellcasting are simply part and parcel of the overall performance of the class and contribute more than just survival basics, specially the swift-cast litanies.

[Gruzzle]

Not just a 'single attack', but it can only be used as a Standard Action.
That's what outright kills the Holy Gun at mid/high levels.

Early levels (before you can make multiple attacks) Holy Gun closer to average. It makes some trades but it isn't the worst you could do (I'd say low level Holy Gun is still better than low level Empyreal Knight).
But once you get your Rapid Reload+Cartridges, and "full attack" actually means something, then Holy Gun falls hard, and fast.

You can -slightly- extend the life of it by using a Scatter-gun > Smiting Shot applies on the -attack-, not the -target-.
But again, once you can make a full attack, you're better off taking a different archetype.

Oh. Crap. I hadn't realized this. Yeah ok, Holy Gun is truly irredeemable. Thanks for explaining it this way! :smallsmile:


@Gruzzle:

That example was simply to give you a benchmark on what minimum performance can be expected from a Paladin right now. Anything that performs lower than that is pretty much crap.

Archery-based Paladins are quite common (Divine Hunter) and usually manage to shift into high gear at around level 7 when a full attack will allow to fire 4 arrows and Litany of Righteousness becomes available (swift action cast to flat double your damage). Keep in mind that you will usually have the Fate´s Favored trait and pack a wand of Divine Favor and maybe have the Unsanctioned Knowledge feat and get Wrath covered with a wand, too. Special mention goes to an often overlooked property of Smite Evil - The first hit (not attack!) against an evil outsider gains double CHA bonus on damage. Now tie these elements together to see what damage profile a Paladin can have, where the actual damage comes from and why you don´t want to lose more Paladin levels than absolutely necessary.

So, guns. The only thing you need Grit for is using Quick Clear on a jam and that should not be the case too often (if it is, go have a serious talk with your dice). For all practical purposes, that means that you can manage to get by with the Amateur Gunslinger feat. As shown above, a dedicated casting Paladin can manage to stack an ungodly amount of buffs to easily compensate for the missing damage attribute on guns/x-bows. The important thing here really is to go heavily into spellcasting and push CHA hard.

So the best basis for this would be a plain vanilla Oath of Vengeance Paladin, Human for the bonus feat (Amateur Gunslinger) doing the basic PBS, Rapid Shot, Rapid Reload, Deadly Aim thing first, then following up with Unsanctioned Knowledge and simply more Extra Lay on Hands to convert into Smite Evil after that. Divine Bond will naturally go on the rifle so you can gain Holy and Bane as fast as possible.
CHA should start at 20 and gain the +2 boost when going Mythic.

As for Mythic feats and Paths, you´re practically set at this point. Feats will go into reinforcing what you already have, with Rapid Reload (M) doing away with the need for Alchemical Cartridges (That´s why it´d be my first pick) followed by Deadly Aim (M) to get a grip on basic damage dealt.

From then on, it´s a toss-up between Champion and Marshal. Personally, I´d rather go for a Marshal build, maybe Tactician, as enough melees are present and a gun-Paladin doesn´t do much besides continually full attacking.

So if I understand you correctly, you propose that I'm better off not dipping into Gunslinger (Mysterious Stranger) at all? Honestly feels like, if I'm not going that route, I shouldn't even get into blackpowder weapons at all :smallfrown:. Stick with Bows and just stat prioritize Cha>Dex>Str>Wis>Con>Int? It'll save me a feat slot, though I lose out on the touch AC yumminess of guns.


Less of an issue, actually. You take Fate´s Favored to add another +1 on all kinds of luck bonus you get. Divine Favor is +1 luck bonus to hit and damage/3 levels. So even the basic CL1 wand will constantly net you +2 hit/dmg, offsetting half the firing into melee penalty by itself. Add in the ability of guns to target touch AC and you´re good at that point.

20 Charisma is actually not that difficult with a Paladin, as you can dump WIS hard and not feel any difference by doing so (followed by INT if needed). The important part here simply is that Paladin spells and spellcasting are simply part and parcel of the overall performance of the class and contribute more than just survival basics, specially the swift-cast litanies.

The basic gist I'm getting is that I shouldn't be sacrificing any levels of paladin at all?

[Florian]

You´ve got that right. The Paladin is an incredibly efficient class once you manage to tie in spellcasting to the overall performance. A lot of people generally overlook that aspect, but that´s where the true power of this class comes from. So dipping or MC´ing generally delays your abilities and rarely generate enough synergy to be worth it. (The sole exception so far being the Life Oracle, but the VMC rules covered that, too)

At that point, it comes down to style, as even with a Bow you rarely manage to get a significant STR score on a Divine Hunter until late game equipment.
Personally, I prefer the melee Paladin over the Ranged Paladin as Channel Smite is an readily available option. Of the ranged Paladins, I prefer X-Bow over bow, followed by Gun, based on how they interact with the class as a whole.

(And I´m gonna bet Dolar for a Dime that your groups Sword and Board Paladin is gonna suck and starts being dissatisfied at around level 6)

[Gruzzle]

You´ve got that right. The Paladin is an incredibly efficient class once you manage to tie in spellcasting to the overall performance. A lot of people generally overlook that aspect, but that´s where the true power of this class comes from. So dipping or MC´ing generally delays your abilities and rarely generate enough synergy to be worth it. (The sole exception so far being the Life Oracle, but the VMC rules covered that, too)

At that point, it comes down to style, as even with a Bow you rarely manage to get a significant STR score on a Divine Hunter until late game equipment.
Personally, I prefer the melee Paladin over the Ranged Paladin as Channel Smite is an readily available option. Of the ranged Paladins, I prefer X-Bow over bow, followed by Gun, based on how they interact with the class as a whole.

(And I´m gonna bet Dolar for a Dime that your groups Sword and Board Paladin is gonna suck and starts being dissatisfied at around level 6)

So I'm trying to lay out both sides of this so I can make an informed choice. I like the melee paladin build you've laid out, and if I end up going paladin I'll be using it. But what layout would you recommend if I went gunslinger for this AP? What build loadout would you recommend?

[Florian]

So I'm trying to lay out both sides of this so I can make an informed choice. I like the melee paladin build you've laid out, and if I end up going paladin I'll be using it. But what layout would you recommend if I went gunslinger for this AP? What build loadout would you recommend?


Sorry, wanted to answer earlier but my internet provider had troubles.

If you want to use guns, check something with your GM first, namely their stance on the Multishot feat. Some allow it to work with guns, others don´t, but this´ll have an impact on which Mythic Augmented Feats to chose and use.

Staying pure Paladin, you´ll want Human for the bonus feat, skill point and FCB.
Traits, you´ll want Fate´s Favorite (for the upgraded luck bonus) and Killer (to add the crit multiplier as static precision bonus. So with guns, it´s +4)
As for skills, you want to dump INT hard and still come out with three class skills. Profession: Soldier, Diplomacy and Use Magical Device got you overall covered.

As for feats, you´ll want to stick with Pistols instead of Rifles. (1) is Rapid Reload (Pistol) and Amateur Gunslinger, (3) Point-Blank Shot, (5) Rapid Shot.
(7) depends on what your GM says on Multishot. When you´re green-lighted on it and also gain the Mythic augmented version, do, if not, go for Deadly Aim instead, followed by Extra Lay On Hands.

Overall, I prefer the Oath of Vengeance Paladin over the Divine Hunter for this. Precise Shot as a bonus feat is not such a big deal when using guns and adding Wrath and Blessing of Fervor to the spell list alleviated the need for Unsanctioned Knowledge. (Let me remind you: The big deal with Wrath is not only the stacking morale bonus to hit and damage (up to +3), it´s the free Improved Critical feat you gain at CL 12th)

Equipment should aim towards a War Commander´s Field Plate and Seraphic Pistol. The former is good for mass battles, the later is a force-multiplier as it allows to negate DR for the whole team, invaluable when into a demon-heavy campaign. (You automatically bypass DR when using smite, so go figure)
Divine Bond goes to your pistol as you want free Axiomatic and Holy ASAP. On a practical side, this let´s you get some (lesser) Quicken meta-magic rods and use them for BFC purposes.

Mythic Path here should be "Champion" with Champion´s Strike/Distant Barrage as main feature. 1st - Limitless Range, Mythic Smite, Sniper´s Riposte. 3rd - Binding Ritual, Precision, Unstoppable Shot, 6th is Perfect Strike and Shatter Spells, and so on.
Mythic Augmented Feats should go towards enhancing what is already there, meaning, again, PBS, Rapid Shot, Rapid Reload and Multishot (if allowed)

We´ve already covered that spells play a big role in this build. Spell selection is going to be quite utilitarian and boring for that. You´ll want to back up most of them by using wands and keep Pearls of Power ready to recharge the ones cast using your own slots.
Basics here are Divine Favor and Wrath. Litany of Righteousness is going to be your multiplier, the Angelic Aspect line general defense, Archon´s Trumpet and Chains of Light for general BFC due to high CR and Blessing of Fervor simply is Haste, so hurray!
Mythic Augmented Spells, you´ll want to get Divine Favour and Prayer but talk about that with the other Paladin in the party first.

The overall result should be quite pleasing as long as you stay within PBS range. The downside is, that until this character hits level 4, performance is lackluster, as is usual with guns.

Edit: Keep in kind that this whole build is based on conversion rates. CHA to LoH, LoH to Smite, Smite to CHA to DMG.

(Don´t forget to buy 4 Guard Dogs and a Hunting Falcon for your starting equipment.This will significantly lessen the gun-pain of the earlier levels)

Edit 2: No, I would not want to play that. Guns simply are not a viable options outside of certain builds and in most cases cripple the style of the intended class.

[Gruzzle]

So in lieu of building an actual gunslinger, you'd recommend staying paladin? Is this because of the AP?

[Florian]

So in lieu of building an actual gunslinger, you'd recommend staying paladin? Is this because of the AP?

I simply did´t get your intention and thought we were still at the topic of Paladin with guns.
Besides that, this AP is penetratingly focused on the whole Paladin and demon-slaying topic, up to the point that it gets annoying. (As someone else pointed out in your other thread, you´ll want to play a CN Fighter and slaughter all NPC out of sheer self-defense...)

Ok, Gunslinger: The main issue with the class itself is that with reaching 5th level, it pretty much is complete and you simply have no further gain from it. So it´s more of an issue what to do with the other 15 levels that will shape how the build will look like and function.

The most direct approach will simply be Tiefling Gunslinger 5/Fighter 15, going TWF with two pistols.
That´s a straight upgrade in effectiveness, as now all WMH/AMH options are available and it doesn´t change the overall feeling of the class. Including the Snap-Shot line of feats will make it pretty effective against enemy casters and you can gain a bit of utility with some of the relic feats.

[Secret Wizard]

I'm a fan of full gunslinger. The defensive tools and great saves are quite worth it imho.

[Florian]

I'm a fan of full gunslinger. The defensive tools and great saves are quite worth it imho.

The issue here is simply that AMH/WMH actually shifted the Fighter a whole Tier, especially when it comes to versatility. Add in options like acquiring the Warpriest bonus damage progression or gaining the Paladins Divine Weapon Bond and you´ll find that the basic Fighter now can offer outstanding performance.

[Gruzzle]

I simply did´t get your intention and thought we were still at the topic of Paladin with guns.
Besides that, this AP is penetratingly focused on the whole Paladin and demon-slaying topic, up to the point that it gets annoying. (As someone else pointed out in your other thread, you´ll want to play a CN Fighter and slaughter all NPC out of sheer self-defense...)

Ok, Gunslinger: The main issue with the class itself is that with reaching 5th level, it pretty much is complete and you simply have no further gain from it. So it´s more of an issue what to do with the other 15 levels that will shape how the build will look like and function.

The most direct approach will simply be Tiefling Gunslinger 5/Fighter 15, going TWF with two pistols.
That´s a straight upgrade in effectiveness, as now all WMH/AMH options are available and it doesn´t change the overall feeling of the class. Including the Snap-Shot line of feats will make it pretty effective against enemy casters and you can gain a bit of utility with some of the relic feats.

With this build, would you recommend the pistolero archtype?

[Florian]

With this build, would you recommend the pistolero archtype?

Explanations first: Tieflings have access to the "Prehensile Tail" Alternate Racial Feature. That gives your character a free "third hand" when it comes to reloading or holding items (in exchange for their magic boost, which you do not need at all). Tieflings can also select a racial sub-type, which should go towards being an Asura-Spawn (Faultspawn), which correspondents well with regular PB.

Character alignment should really be CN then, as being hit with Chaos Hammer or Unholy Blight is a definitive issue in this AP.

Feat selection will depend on your GM allowing you to start out with a second gun when going TWF or you having to wait for it until you can manage by WBL alone.

So yes, starting out with Pistolero and (1) Rapid Reload (3) Point-Blank Shot (4) Deadly Aim (5) TWF is certainly a thing.