PDA

View Full Version : Shapechanging Druid Variant



Catharsis
2007-06-28, 03:27 AM
Please share your experiences with the PHBII shapechanging druid variant. I can tell it's less powerful than the vanilla druid, but it sounds like a lot of fun and flavor.

Here's my build idea: Sulepsi Qufarah, a dark-skinned lady from Mulhorand who likes to turn into a black panther at will, S 16, D 14, C 12, I 13, W 16, X 8. Feats: Combat Expertise and Improved Trip. The idea is to use my barbarianesque Strength in wild form to keep the main baddies on the floor. The expected level range is 1-10, at the very most 15. Opinions? Should I leave the specialized combat to the fighter types and put those Int score points into Con? I thought tripping would be the best use of high Strength but low attack bonus...

If anything, I love the movement capabilities of this build.

Fixer
2007-06-28, 06:28 AM
My wife will be playing the first shapeshifting druid we will have ever played in a couple weeks from now. We will tell you how it goes.

Catharsis
2007-06-28, 10:40 AM
Huh, OK. Any others?

Counterspin
2007-06-28, 10:58 AM
Much more balanced than a normal druid because you're limited in your shapeshifting capacity. Still not particularly balanced, because you're still a full caster capable of doing front line fighting.

I tried to be good, I only took enough druid to get the forms I wanted, then went swordsage, but the spells were still so good that sometimes I succumbed to the temptation and went back to caster mode.

Catharsis
2007-06-28, 11:19 AM
I know that "full caster" is supposed to be justification enough for a druid's überness, but so far I haven't exactly found the druid spell list awe-inspiring (I'm looking at the 1-10 level range, since that's where most of the game is going to play). Most spells appear to be geared towards grove interior decoration and interaction with plant monsters. Meanwhile, clerics get Hold Person at CL 3, which is basically a save-or-die spell...

Counterspin
2007-06-28, 11:53 AM
I was, admittedly using the Spell Compendium. But windwall is pretty strong, and I was also using... blinding cloud maybe? Additionally, castle vs. dig speed(from a druid spell), dig speed wins! Regardless of the methods, I managed to trivialize two encounters in one evening using druid spells. As always your milage may vary.

nerulean
2007-06-28, 12:38 PM
Most spells appear to be geared towards grove interior decoration and interaction with plant monsters.

I haven't laughed so hard in a long time. Have an internet.

A lot of the druid spells work well with cunning applied, like Counterspin's dig speed vs. castle. A druid does get some very useful little numbers, especially if you are weasely in your application.

Amphimir Míriel
2007-06-28, 04:52 PM
Could someone post a quick summary of this variant?

(don't have the PHBII and can't really go and buy supplements)

Merlin the Tuna
2007-06-28, 05:21 PM
Could someone post a quick summary of this variant?You lose Wild Shape and your Animal companion. In return, you gain the ability to shapeshift into a few generic forms. In this case, by "generic" I mean "you could describe this as similar to any number of animals." So instead of having separate forms for tigers and lions, it's just called "Beast Form" (or something similar) and some suggestions for how to flavor it are included.

At any rate, shapeshifting can be done at will starting at level one as a swift action, but more varied and powerful forms are granted as your Druid level increases. In addition, older forms receive small upgrades, which helps to slow the rate at which they become useless. For example, you might be granted Mobility while in a certain form (but not in any others, including your original creature type).

Taking different forms is pretty simple to work out, too; instead of having to dig through monster manuals, the bonuses are specifically enumerated (as in, +8 enhancement to Strength, 40 ft move speed, etc.) in each form. In the end it's still a Druid class feature, though, meaning it requires a page and a half of explanation, but it's certainly less of a mess than Wild Shape.

TheOOB
2007-06-28, 06:06 PM
It should also be noted that shapeshift druids cannot cast while shifted, period, but since shifting is a swift action, its not that big of a deal (though no sniping in aerial form).

Shapeshift forms lack much of the sheer versitility that normal druids have, lacking even something as simple as a water form, but its not hard to homebrew feats for stuff like that (I made a few myself).

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-06-28, 06:17 PM
It should also be noted that shapeshift druids cannot cast while shifted, period, but since shifting is a swift action, its not that big of a deal (though no sniping in aerial form).

Shapeshift forms lack much of the sheer versitility that normal druids have, lacking even something as simple as a water form, but its not hard to homebrew feats for stuff like that (I made a few myself).

Natural Spell FTW.

Piccamo
2007-06-28, 06:57 PM
Natural Spell FTW.

I hope you're not implying to use Natural Spell?

Gerrtt
2007-06-28, 07:02 PM
I dont have the book, but if memory serves you can't use natural spell with the shapeshifting variant.

Gavin Sage
2007-06-28, 07:03 PM
Natural Spell FTW.

No it is explicitly barred as having no effect in the PHB II.

TheOOB
2007-06-28, 07:04 PM
No spellcasting, period, it does not allow natural spell. Natural spell is what turned druids from insanely twinky into gods.

Person_Man
2007-06-28, 07:05 PM
I've seen it used in a campaign I DM'd, and I liked it a lot.

Druids are full casters with a huge list. If you completely took away all their other abilities they'd still be quite good (cough *Spirit Shaman* cough). The PHBII variant allows them to hold onto their Wildshape fluff without nerfing their overall playability.

TheOOB
2007-06-28, 07:12 PM
I've seen it used in a campaign I DM'd, and I liked it a lot.

Druids are full casters with a huge list. If you completely took away all their other abilities they'd still be quite good (cough *Spirit Shaman* cough). The PHBII variant allows them to hold onto their Wildshape fluff without nerfing their overall playability.

That about sums it up, shapeshift is good, but you could get much the same results just by having good combat eq. This varient mostly lets you save your money for casting eq.

kpenguin
2007-06-28, 09:23 PM
As a DM, I like having my PCs have it but not my NPCs. Mostly because I want to keep my PCs balanced, but have no desire to hinder my NPCs.

I would never use shapechange as a player, mostly because it lacks the utility you get from wildshape. Sure you could shapechange into aerial form, but do you get an eagle's spot bonuses? You could shapechange into hunter form, but do you get pounce? You don't even get a burrowing or a scout or an aquatic form. Shapechange is combat, pure and simple. I don't like it.

TheOOB
2007-06-28, 09:41 PM
As a DM, I like having my PCs have it but not my NPCs. Mostly because I want to keep my PCs balanced, but have no desire to hinder my NPCs.

I would never use shapechange as a player, mostly because it lacks the utility you get from wildshape. Sure you could shapechange into aerial form, but do you get an eagle's spot bonuses? You could shapechange into hunter form, but do you get pounce? You don't even get a burrowing or a scout or an aquatic form. Shapechange is combat, pure and simple. I don't like it.

Versitility? Being a full spellcaster with access to their entire list isn't enough?

DaMullet
2007-06-28, 09:44 PM
If I recall correctly, kpenguin, that since they changed Wild Shape to Alternate Form, you didn't get either Pounce or the Eagle's Vision.

Leon
2007-06-28, 09:46 PM
I was, admittedly using the Spell Compendium. But windwall is pretty strong, and I was also using... blinding cloud maybe? Additionally, castle vs. dig speed(from a druid spell), dig speed wins! Regardless of the methods, I managed to trivialize two encounters in one evening using druid spells. As always your milage may vary.

ive got a mental image of all these molehills around a castle now

kpenguin
2007-06-28, 09:57 PM
If I recall correctly, kpenguin, that since they changed Wild Shape to Alternate Form, you didn't get either Pounce or the Eagle's Vision.

Um.. yeah you do.


Alternate Form

A creature with this special quality has the ability to assume one or more specific alternate forms. A true seeing spell or ability reveals the creature’s natural form. A creature using alternate form reverts to its natural form when killed, but separated body parts retain their shape. A creature cannot use alternate form to take the form of a creature with a template. Assuming an alternate form results in the following changes to the creature:

* The creature retains the type and subtype of its original form. It gains the size of its new form. If the new form has the aquatic subtype, the creature gains that subtype as well.
* The creature loses the natural weapons, natural armor, and movement modes of its original form, as well as any extraordinary special attacks of its original form not derived from class levels (such as the barbarian’s rage class feature).
* The creature gains the natural weapons, natural armor, movement modes, and extraordinary special attacks of its new form.
* The creature retains the special qualities of its original form. It does not gain any special qualities of its new form.
* The creature retains the spell-like abilities and supernatural attacks of its old form (except for breath weapons and gaze attacks). It does not gain the spell-like abilities or attacks of its new form. Apply any changed physical ability score modifiers in all appropriate areas with one exception: the creature retains the hit points of its original form despite any change to its Constitution.
* The creature gains the physical ability scores (Str, Dex, Con) of its new form. It retains the mental ability scores (Int, Wis, Cha) of its original form.
* The creature retains its hit points and save bonuses, although its save modifiers may change due to a change in ability scores.
* Except as described elsewhere, the creature retains all other game statistics of its original form, including (but not necessarily limited to) HD, hit points, skill ranks, feats, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses.
* The creature retains any spellcasting ability it had in its original form, although it must be able to speak intelligibly to cast spells with verbal components and it must have humanlike hands to cast spells with somatic components.
* The creature is effectively camouflaged as a creature of its new form, and it gains a +10 bonus on Disguise checks if it uses this ability to create a disguise.
* Any gear worn or carried by the creature that can’t be worn or carried in its new form instead falls to the ground in its space. If the creature changes size, any gear it wears or carries that can be worn or carried in its new form changes size to match the new size. (Nonhumanoid-shaped creatures can’t wear armor designed for humanoid-shaped creatures, and vice versa.) Gear returns to normal size if dropped.

Catharsis
2007-06-29, 01:56 AM
* The creature retains the special qualities of its original form. It does not gain any special qualities of its new form.
That would rule out the Eagle's eyesight, right?


Versitility? Being a full spellcaster with access to their entire list isn't enough?
Not if there are only a handful of good spells, most of which are rather situational. Being conservative with the available spell list (Core + Complete + PHBII), that is the case.

(Not that I would want to burrow through dirt. That's just undignified. :smallwink: )

kpenguin
2007-06-29, 02:34 AM
But you still get the eagle's racial skill bonuses and ranks.

Fixer
2007-06-29, 07:33 AM
When I was reviewing my wife's character sheet (Diotima in signature) and trying to optimize her to stay alive (my wife is a novice player) I realize that, in her shapeshifted forms, her AC sucks. It also never really gets better for many levels.

Elite Array, gearing towards combat:
Str 15
Dex 13
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 12 (Yeah, I know, bad druid, but I am trying to show combat focus here)
Cha 8

Predator form:
Str 19
Dex 13
Con 14
Natural Armor 4

This druid has a 15 AC. This won't get ANY better until they gain access to 2nd level spells (barkskin) and then it only gets a few points higher.

Until they get to (I think) 12th level, that AC does NOT get any better. They also cannot use any magic items to improve their AC (except an animated shield, which is iffy) EVER.

Catharsis
2007-06-29, 08:08 AM
The Slayer form at 8th level has a better AC, and Barkskin scales up. But yeah, the AC is low. At least you can revert to the armored and shielded humanoid with a Swift action if you need better AC. (In my build, I can even use Combat Expertise to tank up, but if you're stuck with the elite array, well... poor you. :smalleek:) The reliance on tripping also comes with a damage mitigation effect; an enemy that has to stand up can't take full-round actions.

Does anyone have an opinion about the build in the original post? Is the Wis too low? Con too low? Is the tripping Schtick worth it?

Fixer
2007-06-29, 08:10 AM
The slayer form does, indeed, have a better AC but at the level where you get the slayer form your AC could potentially be higher with magic items. You also (italicized for emphasis) lose the benefits of ALL worn magic items. At higher levels that really starts to suck as you have accumulated all sorts of offensive and defensive magic items.

Fax Celestis
2007-06-29, 09:13 AM
The slayer form does, indeed, have a better AC but at the level where you get the slayer form your AC could potentially be higher with magic items. You also (italicized for emphasis) lose the benefits of ALL worn magic items. At higher levels that really starts to suck as you have accumulated all sorts of offensive and defensive magic items.

You could try adding the Wild property to a Monk's Belt, so that it continues to function while you're in animal form. It'd be ad hoc, but it'd work.

Catharsis
2007-06-29, 09:28 AM
How about giving the belt to a partymate, who then ties it around your belly once you're in slayer form? :smallwink:

ImperiousLeader
2007-06-29, 09:35 AM
Wilding Clasps function under Wildshape, but Shapeshift is not Wildshape, RAW, I don't believe it works. The Druid's higher level forms offer some decent save boosts, but the equipment loss is kinda painful. You could go Vow of Poverty, but I'm not a fan of that kind of cheese. I tend to spend more cash on offensive spellcasting equipment, pearls of power, wands and metamagic rods for example, and take Persistent Spell at high levels, since a persistent bear's endurance is useable both shifted and unshifted, therefore worth the high level slot.

I like the Shapeshift variant, but it isn't nearly as powerful. And you're right about the first few forms lacking AC, and being difficult to fix that.

Fixer
2007-06-29, 09:57 AM
How about giving the belt to a partymate, who then ties it around your belly once you're in slayer form? :smallwink:

Actually, if you look at my wife's character sheet, you will see where we actually have written down a "Riding Dog set of Mithril Breastplate armor" that my character puts on her after she shapeshifts.

Of course, the problem is that when she becomes anything OTHER than a riding dog, it gets absorbed again and you can't get it 'out' until she returns to normal form and it falls at her feet. Even if she goes back to Riding Dog form before returning to normal form, it has been absorbed by that point and wouldn't 'unabsorb'.

Why?

Because the rules don't say so and they DO say that all worn equipment is absorbed when you change shapes. Other rules specify that all equipment worn while in an alternate shape falls to the ground in front of the character when they return to normal form.

Catharsis
2007-06-29, 10:50 AM
Do you mean dragonhide breastplate? I though druids couldn't wear metal. The idea of having a set of armor for your predator shape is ingenious, though. Buying your friendly neighborhood wizard a Pearl of Power with which to cast Mage Armor on you once a day could also be worthwhile. Suddenly, shapechanging doesn't look like becoming a second-rate barbarian anymore...

Fax Celestis
2007-06-29, 10:56 AM
Barding is ingenious. You could get magically enhanced barding that shapes to whatever nonhumanoid, quadrupedal animal it is placed on. I'd call that probably a +1. Might even be something like it already in the A&EG.

ZeroNumerous
2007-06-29, 11:12 AM
I've started using the variant in the games I run, and it definitely helps with the problem of Druids being overpowered. Sure, it does lack what Wild Shape can do for a druid, but it introduces much needed balance.

Fixer
2007-06-29, 11:42 AM
Do you mean dragonhide breastplate? I though druids couldn't wear metal. The idea of having a set of armor for your predator shape is ingenious, though. Buying your friendly neighborhood wizard a Pearl of Power with which to cast Mage Armor on you once a day could also be worthwhile. Suddenly, shapechanging doesn't look like becoming a second-rate barbarian anymore...

Uhm....

er....

No, I made it Mithril.

Whoops! Gotta fix that. THANKS! :D

(EDIT) Fixed. Made it +1 Dragonscale (Silver, if anyone was asking)

Catharsis
2007-07-01, 09:10 AM
Hm, how about adding a level of Monk into the shapechanging Druid stuff? Wis to AC (even touch!) and +2 to all saves is nice. Sure, the BAB hurts, but the Str bonus of the shapes help.

You could even take two Monk levels and go Sacred Fist after that. I guess you'd have to stick with the predator and flyer shapes, but that's not such a harsh deal. You lose a spell level, so it's not optimized, but very stylish. :smallbiggrin:

Cormac
2007-12-25, 11:55 AM
if you were going to create the same character (a tripping shapeshift druid), how would you arrange the points with a 28 point buy?

i have another post up thinking about this character more thoroughly
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67593&highlight=druid

but my current thought is

14
14
12
14
14
8

i know, i know, a low wisdom on a druid?!?!?! what am i thinking!?!
But what would you recommend?