2E Subabilities

[Re4XN]

I was looking at the Skill & Powers book the other day and stumbled upon the so called subabilities. What I want to know is if they are actually worth using in game or do they add unnecessary complexity? As you know, apart from flat ability checks, there's not much you can roll in 2E, so what's your opinion on these?

[Lord Torath]

I've never used them. To me it just seemed like unnecessary complication for the sole purpose of min-maxing.

[hamlet]

I have found them to be completely unnecessary and, in the end, useless even if employed.

[LibraryOgre]

One of the big problems with subabilities is that they are very gamable... if your GM doesn't pay a lot of attention to encumbrance, for example, you can usually dump Str/Sta and get Str/Msc, which gives bonuses to hit and damage. Higher Knowledge improves your bonus proficiencies... the other one is only useful if you're a mage.

I do find them to have minimal use in the racial bonuses area... a slight bump in Msc or Stamina can personalize a character, rather than just be a minmax tool.

[hamlet]

I do find them to have minimal use in the racial bonuses area... a slight bump in Msc or Stamina can personalize a character, rather than just be a minmax tool.

True enough, though there's actually a section of the PHB that discusses this with the core six attributes. Basically, how to explain your character's stats in meaningful ways. Creativity can easily create very interesting characters.

[Mutazoia]

I was looking at the Skill & Powers book the other day and stumbled upon the so called subabilities. What I want to know is if they are actually worth using in game or do they add unnecessary complexity? As you know, apart from flat ability checks, there's not much you can roll in 2E, so what's your opinion on these?

Skills & Powers was an afterthought to the system that was tacked on near the end of TSR's lifespan as they tried to make D&D more like other, newer RPGs that offered more than just attributes for character creation. Being that it was rather shoe-horned in, it didn't work very well and, as already pointed out, could easily break a game if the DM wasn't careful.

The only "sub-ability" that I've personally ever seen successfully used in a 2E game was "perception". You added your Int and Wis scores, divided by two (round down) and that was your perception score. You used this like a 3E perception check, or for such things as how fast you woke up in an emergency (the higher the score the faster you woke up and the more alert you were right after waking up).

There was an article in Dragon Magazine #133 (http://annarchive.com/files/Drmg133.pdf) on page 12 that first introduced Perception as a new ability back in '88, but they generated the stat a little differently than we did (it was another rolled stat in the article).

[Re4XN]

I have my own Perception score. Instead of rolling 6 abilities, you roll 7 and one of them is your perception. You then roll a 1d20 and try to roll low for the perception check. I think this also works and it's simple enough. I did not know about the "shoe-horned" part :P I have only played D&D for a bit less than 2 years now, and there is still much I need to learn. Thanks for the information everyone!

[BigBadHarve]

I use them in my 2nd Ed. campaign, and we have had no problems. But I agree with the sentiment that they can get out of hand without DM supervision.

My players get the 3d6, assign as desired method for their attributes, so they tend to be in the average range. I've found that makes for a variety of motivations for splitting the subabilities. Each one gets used and min/maxing isn't a huge problem.

I find the Player's Options books have a lot to offer the game, but as DM it's important to find the balance of what you want in your game and keep boundaries clear.

[Re4XN]

I use them in my 2nd Ed. campaign, and we have had no problems. But I agree with the sentiment that they can get out of hand without DM supervision.

My players get the 3d6, assign as desired method for their attributes, so they tend to be in the average range. I've found that makes for a variety of motivations for splitting the subabilities. Each one gets used and min/maxing isn't a huge problem.

I find the Player's Options books have a lot to offer the game, but as DM it's important to find the balance of what you want in your game and keep boundaries clear.

How did you balance it for your campaign? I originally wanted to use them to differentiate PCs from one another, give them more customization options. Also, rolling flat Ability Scores might seem a bit bland, so these give a bit more options (though it might get a bit complicated). At least, this is what I thought at first, most people tell me they complicate the game and are utterly not worth it.

[BigBadHarve]

How did you balance it for your campaign? I originally wanted to use them to differentiate PCs from one another, give them more customization options. Also, rolling flat Ability Scores might seem a bit bland, so these give a bit more options (though it might get a bit complicated). At least, this is what I thought at first, most people tell me they complicate the game and are utterly not worth it.

Well, if you're using the Player's Options, then you've already added a level of complication to the existing system. Whether or not it's worth it depends on you and your group.

For me, I adhere strictly to the 3d6 method. I still get occasional complaints about low scores, but given the abilities one can achieve with the Player's Option system, you have to stick to your guns. Don't let the whiners influence you when they don't get a coveted 18 on their grid. That's where stat splitting comes in, they can sacrifice a little bit to boost part of an Attribute to a high level if they get a moderate statistic. It's not that much removed from the ability to drop 2 from an attribute to add 1 to another (something from the B/X system, I believe)

Ultimately, aside from qualifying for specialty classes, Attributes shouldn't really matter to the playability of a character.

Any other balance will come from other factors of your gaming style. It doesn't hurt to have players who understand that their characters don't have to be the best at what they do. I have certainly dealt with my share of players who just aren't happy if they aren't superheroes in the game world. Not all fighters need an 18/00 strength, not all mages MUST have 18 Intellect.

[lykaon]

This subject came up on another forum (namely, Dragonsfoot) where I asked for comments about my houserules. I also love the way the subabilities allow customization, and think that differentiating between most of them really makes sense.

We are playing a Dark Sun game with heavily moderated access to most of the stuff in Player's Option books, includin character points (CP), and modified nonweapon proficiencies.


The scores for the two subabilities must be within two points of each other.
Subabilities can not exceed racial ability maximums.
All races can adjust subabilities of any ability score that have positive racial adjustments for free, increasing one subability score and decreasing the other relevant subability score by 1 point. Humans can choose to modify subability scores of any single ability for free. All other subability modifications cost 1 CP per ability.
Every point of CON/Heath ability score above 14 gives 1 point bonus to the fortitude based saves.
CON/Health subability determines the max minus HP for Hovering on Death’s door for a PC or NPC can.
Weight Allowance (STR/Stamina) determines number of rounds (minutes) a character can stand heavy labour/ hard weather conditions without rest (and water in Athas, of course).
Perception = (INT/Reason + WIS/Intuition) / 2


What I did for STR/Stamina is, besides forcing the encumbrance rules, to use it to determine number of rounds (minutes) a character can stand hard weather conditions without rest and water, which is an important issue in a Dark Sun game.

For CON/Health, which is traditionally dumped in favor of Fitness for more HP's as you mentioned, I use it to determine the max minus HP for Hovering on Death’s door. (you live till you are at -15 if you have 15 Health) Besides, every point of Heath ability score above 14 gives 1 point bonus to the fortitude based saves.

INT/Reason and WIS/Intiution are dump stats for everybody except wizards and clerics respectively, so I use average of these two for Perception, which is a stat we use very often.

These may not balance the subabilites perfectly, but at least there are some trade-offs now.