OOTS #1039 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Greymortis]

Doors! I can't wait

[yester]

This Xykon neck will take some getting used to, I guess

[Epoxy]

I just noticed the detail of RC's tattered cloak, nice!

[enh]

That is... more doors than I expected. And, obviously, they've already been making exploratory incursions, which neatly clears up the lingering "what has Xykon been doing all this time" issues.

[Hackman]

Where's Monty Hall when you need him?

[BannedInSchool]

I believe statistically speaking you might as well just do the doors in order.

[Shining Wrath]

Heh. Throwback city - "Keep on the Borderlands" and a lot of other dungeons where the question is "What's behind door #4"?

Grayview managed to be annoying rather than amusing, at least to me. I imagine that if you had to live with him after a few weeks you'd be investing in a tight-fitting muzzle.

It appears that MitD is allowed to go with Team Evil into the dungeon, or at least to approach the doors. And we now know the MitD can hold two things at once - umbrella and paint brush - which is probably implied from the rope pulling scene, but anyway, two appendages not used for standing.

[hamishspence]

So that's where Oona got her cloak from.

[Seto]

Poor defiled Stone dwarf. Scribble all over on the Order of the Scribble is irony, yes?

I like that Xykon lets MitD have his fun, though. And the exchange between Oona and Greyview is hilarious. An exciting new adventure by an Evil party is about to begin.

[Bubble]

This Xykon neck will take some getting used to, I guess

Wow! Can't unsee...

I didn't notice it until you pointed it out. I suppose that's more anatomically correct. I think it clashes a bit with the upper teeth and the jaw though.

[Bestigle]

Wow. Xykon's neck got a serious overhaul. Not sure how to feel about that. Also, are the monsters in Kragor's Tomb breeding? If so, is Team Evil just going to spend the next book looking through the doors and getting jumped on by monsters?

[Bubble]

Yay for evil adventuring parties!

[Shining Wrath]

BTW, we now know that Xykon has been busy, but yet, he's also been ...

wait for it ...

doormant.

[Shining Wrath]

Wow. Xykon's neck got a serious overhaul. Not sure how to feel about that. Also, are the monsters in Kragor's Tomb breeding? If so, is Team Evil just going to spend the next book looking through the doors and getting jumped on by monsters?

From behind he appears to be a toadstool with a crown, probably from Super Mario Brothers.

[Ivrytwr]

Eeny, meeny, miny, moe
Thanks Giant!

[enh]

I believe statistically speaking you might as well just do the doors in order.

Maybe they do, but the doors rearrange themselves overnight.

Probably not Kraagor/Serini's style though. She designed a tomb filled "with the nastiest monsters in the world, to reflect [Kraagor's] belief in the power of physical might" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html). I'll have to look elsewhere for reshuffling doors.

[Bestigle]

From behind he appears to be a toadstool with a crown, probably from Super Mario Brothers.Thanks for that. Another thing I can never unsee.

[snowblizz]

Does the upper half of Kraagors statue look familiar to anyone else (in the last pane). :smallbiggrin:

Or is thre jsut so much one can do with stickfigures? :smalltongue:

[Havelocke]

Looking forward to seeing team evil as an adventuring party! time for eeny meeny minee moe I guess.

[hroþila]

Also, are the monsters in Kragor's Tomb breeding?
They might be respawning.

[anjxed]

I wouldve thought that Kraagors tomb would be like very large dungeon crawling thing

Edit: Does this mean that MitD can fly? Since the doors are a little far off from the ground and from where he is standing

[hobo386]

In before the inevitable reveal where all the doors are fake and the Gate is hidden within the statue.

[Bluepaw]

THAT SPLASH PANEL.

(Also... "Sacrifice Forgotten"?)

[Quibblicious]

Thanks for that. Another thing I can never unsee.

Oh, grow a spine...

:smallbiggrin:

It is a bit off-putting.

Love the multiple doors; it's like a giant roulette of pain.

Q

[Fitzclowningham]

Seeing Xykon's neckbone behind his jaw is kind of weirding me out. I'm sure I'll get used to it eventually.

[Shennynerd]

Xykon was reeeeally snarky towards Redcloak, even for him. He must be running empty on patience. I'm interested in seeing how this particular delving goes.

[AdmiralCheez]

Now that's a dungeon entrance! I wonder if Oona and the clan have actually found the gate at any point in their expeditions, and just figured it was something unimportant.

[Ezekiel]

Oh, I wasn't expecting the tomb to be multiple choice :smalleek:

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I wouldve thought that Kraagors tomb would be like very large dungeon crawling thing


Instead, it's several hundred very large dungeon crawls. Spend all day investigating one, only to find it does not lead you to the gate.

GW

[Hamste]

It is going to take forever for them to finish everything if they have a 5 minute adventure day.

Also any bets on the gate being hidden underneath the statue of the dwarf? After all why give them any chance to guess the right door when you can give them no chance.

[Bestigle]

Oh, grow a spine...

:smallbiggrin:

It is a bit off-putting.

Love the multiple doors; it's like a giant roulette of pain.

Q

I would grow one, but I'm worried it'll make me look like new Xykon. :smalltongue:

They might be respawning.Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that a) a more video game style mechanic, and b) would the halfling (100% forgot her name) have had access to that type of magic? I've never been that great with DnD-specific mechanics, always more of Pathfinder, so I have no idea how they differ, but I don't really think there's a lot of precedence for 'respawning monsters,' is there?

[Quibblicious]

Oh, I wasn't expecting the tomb to be multiple choice :smalleek:

An essay would've been a lot tougher...

Q

[DougTheHead]

It's interesting how most of the gates we've seen so far seem to be designed to slow down anyone trying to get to them as much as they are designed to protect someone FROM getting to them.

[Nymrod]

They might be respawning.

Or rather, deepspawning.

And since a lot of people here do not know much about D&D let me explain that pun.

The deepspawn is a monster that eats other monsters and can then vomit forth endless copies of whatever it has eaten. Only limit to what it can spawn is what it can swallow. It's the usual way monsters respawn in D&D megadungeons.

[Quibblicious]

I would grow one, but I'm worried it'll make me look like new Xykon. :smalltongue:

Bone cold handsome? :smallcool:


Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that a) a more video game style mechanic, and b) would the halfling (100% forgot her name) have had access to that type of magic? I've never been that great with DnD-specific mechanics, always more of Pathfinder, so I have no idea how they differ, but I don't really think there's a lot of precedence for 'respawning monsters,' is there?

Sirini was her name, thieving was her game.

I don't think she'd have access to such magic, but maybe she recruited assistance?

Q

[warmachine]

Monsters big and aggressive enough to deter adventurers require smaller animals as food, which requires a large ecosystem, more so for a breeding population to replace themselves for generations. An ecosystem far, far, far larger than a cave. But in OotS, Drama and Rule of Cool point and laugh at Logic crying in a corner.

[AeonsShadow]

In all this excitement I seem to have forgotten which door is the right path... so tell me boys... ARE YOU FEELIN' LUCKY?

[KillingAScarab]

Its the cliffs of Narshe all over again for me. But with less Magitek armor.


This Xykon neck will take some getting used to, I guessI think its the jaw which I find a bit unsettling. Which, actually,is probably a good thing in a villain.

[Bestigle]

Bone cold handsome? :smallcool:



Sirini was her name, thieving was her game.

I don't think she'd have access to such magic, but maybe she recruited assistance?

QHeh. Doubt it'd make me look that good.

Anyway, she was the rogue? I couldn't remember her role off the top of my heap, seeing as there's been four 'Order of X Line' groups so far, but that would answer my question. I'm leaning towards monsters breeding right now, seeing as the Order of the Scribble is so old that it'd be just as likely that the original monsters, or at least the less long-lived ones, are dead of old age at this.

[Shining Wrath]

An essay would've been a lot tougher...

Q

True. Or, perhaps, false.


Monsters big and aggressive enough to deter adventurers require smaller animals as food, which requires a large ecosystem, more so for a breeding population to replace themselves for generations. An ecosystem far, far, far larger than a cave. But in OotS, Drama and Rule of Cool point and laugh at Logic crying in a corner.

In D&D in general - the Monster Manuals are full of apex predators. Obviously Sirini would have needed to get help in building a Noah's Ark of high-CR monsters and keeping them fed. Maybe the monsters are in some sort of stasis until needed? But Oona's comment indicates the supply of monsters replenishes, so there's got to be a functional ecosystem in there.

[Onyavar]

The last panel eerily reminds me of the works of Thunt, especially his (weird) design of dungeon crawls. (Tarol Hunt, writer of Goblins (www.goblinscomic.com))

Well, so much for my theory of "the statue of Kraagor that was described by Lord Shojo turns out to be actually Kraagor himself, frozen in time as the rift was sealed around him".

Still, I can now see how "lots of monsters" can possibly detract Xykon from instantly accessing the gate. Especially if the monsters are tough, on Ancient Silver Dragon scale upwards. Rocs and purple worms are probably easy for high-level villains like Reddie and Xykon.
So, I guess the monsters are either living and breeding in some kind of pocket planes behind the doors, or were captured and time-frozen by Serini, and opening their tomb-door will wake them up. I'm hoping for the latter - at least someone was time-frozen somehow!!

Edit:

Monsters big and aggressive enough to deter adventurers require smaller animals as food, which requires a large ecosystem, more so for a breeding population to replace themselves for generations. An ecosystem far, far, far larger than a cave. But in OotS, Drama and Rule of Cool point and laugh at Logic crying in a corner.

So far, not extremely so. Sure, there are many little examples of unlogic, but not in the sense that space or physical laws are distorted more than normal D&D magic allows. If you want to see dungeon crawls that defy ANY logic, you way want to look at "The Maze of Many", "The Depths of the Dragons Maw" or "The Well of Darkness". As mentioned above: By Thunt.


Oh, I wasn't expecting the tomb to be multiple choice :smalleek:

What if the game master opens one door as a hint - would you then reconsider your choice of all the other doors?

[aurilee]

So *that's* why they haven't gotten to the gate yet.

I expect they'll be held up with the door-choosing until the Dynamic Paladin Duo get there.

Xykon-with-neck is a little unsettling, but I guess I can get used to it.

[Gift Jeraff]

So I'm guessing after they find the right door, Redcloak will be forced to kill the bugbears so they can't spread the info to anyone else. And maybe one will manage to escape and help the Order when they arrive.

Anyway, I bet we're about to cut back to the paladins, vampires, or protagonists.

[hamishspence]

Its the cliffs of Narshe all over again for me. But with less Magitek armor.

I think its the jaw which I find a bit unsettling. Which, actually,is probably a good thing in a villain.

I notice that the top half of his skull now has a brow ridge - whereas before, it was oval:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0899.html

[hroþila]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that a) a more video game style mechanic, and b) would the halfling (100% forgot her name) have had access to that type of magic? I've never been that great with DnD-specific mechanics, always more of Pathfinder, so I have no idea how they differ, but I don't really think there's a lot of precedence for 'respawning monsters,' is there?
I wasn't being serious, and yes, that's more of a video game thing. But it wouldn't be magic, just the natural way of things in the wild.

[PirateMonk]

The inscription on the statue is... interesting. Girard's idea? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html)


So I'm guessing after they find the right door, Redcloak will be forced to kill the bugbears so they can't spread the info to anyone else. And maybe one will manage to escape and help the Order when they arrive.

Anyway, I bet we're about to cut back to the paladins, vampires, or protagonists.

We've spent several strips on Team Evil already. Presumably something interesting is going to happen in today's excursion.

[Bestigle]

I wasn't being serious, and yes, that's more of a video game thing. But it wouldn't be magic, just the natural way of things in the wild.My assumption was that they were mostly breeding, likely in an ecosystem style format that others have already suggested. For a moment, I was confused as to whether respawning was a valid hypothesis. Thanks for clarifying.

[Nymrod]

Monsters big and aggressive enough to deter adventurers require smaller animals as food, which requires a large ecosystem, more so for a breeding population to replace themselves for generations. An ecosystem far, far, far larger than a cave. But in OotS, Drama and Rule of Cool point and laugh at Logic crying in a corner.

Or you know, there are mechanics facilitating them. In Undermountain, probably the largest dungeon in D&D, Halaster has set up wandering portals that snatch unsuspecting monsters from the wild and dump them in his dungeon. He has massive feeding bin caverns populated by magically-fast growing fungus and teeming with larger herbivores for his monsters to feed on. Many monsters also have explicitly magical metabolisms since they gain nutrition from more than flesh; i.e. draconic metabolism is partly powered by the Elemental planes.

[Nymrod]

My assumption was that they were mostly breeding, likely in an ecosystem style format that others have already suggested. For a moment, I was confused as to whether respawning was a valid hypothesis. Thanks for clarifying.

It is, through deepspawns:smallcool:

[Giggling Ghast]

Also, are the monsters in Kragor's Tomb breeding?

An empty dungeon will inevitably re-fill with monsters. Xykon himself addressed this a long time ago.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0191.html

[Lhynard]

Should it be "Sacrifice is not forgotten"?

[Vectner]

So do all of those doors lead to a respawning dungeon? If so then I would think Oona would already know that the monsters come back. How big are the dungeons? So may questions!

[Giggling Ghast]

Should it be "Sacrifice is not forgotten"?

No. His sacrifice WAS forgotten. It's just more poignant to eliminate the "was."

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html

[Bestigle]

It is, through deepspawns:smallcool:I'm embarassed to say, despite being a monster nut, I had to go look that up. That would actually explain quite a lot.

An empty dungeon will inevitably re-fill with monsters. Xykon himself addressed this a long time ago.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0191.htmlI did not remember that. Thanks for providing a link. :smallsmile:

[Roland Itiative]

In before the inevitable reveal where all the doors are fake and the Gate is hidden within the statue.

That was the first thing I thought of when I saw the last panel. Would be a nice call-back to Xykon's own "cheating" in the "shell game" way back in the invasion of Azure City, and Serini, being a rogue, would be in the perfect spot to come up with the same plan.

Also, there's something unsettling about Kragoor's statue in the last panel. It feels like it's looking straight at the reader, even more than it does in the other panel where it's seen from the same angle :smalltongue:

[Ted The Bug]

Wow, what a final gate!

And Xykon's neck/jaw...that will take some getting used to. A little less menacing.

[Bestigle]

Also, there's something unsettling about Kragoor's statue in the last panel. It feels like it's looking straight at the reader, even more than it does in the other panel where it's seen from the same angle :smalltongue:Look at The Giant's avatar for a second.

[Slayer Lord]

Ah, so this is how they haven't found the gate yet. Kraagor's Tomb, Monster Hollow, the dungeon looks really awesome.

[Thecommander236]

I'm getting this feeling that Kraagor didn't kill nearly as many goblins as Redcloak claims. How could he possibly know what he did if his sacrifice and life was forgotten?

[Quild]

Assuming Redcloak to be level 17, his spells do:

(Extended) Freedom of movement (lvl 4): Protects from what may impede movement for 340 minutes (extended doubles duration)

(Extended) Fortunate Fate (lvl 7): Casts Heal whenever target gets below -10 HP for 340 minutes

Magic Vestment (lvl 3): RC's armor's enhancement bonus goes to +4 for 17 hours

Superior Resistance (lvl 6): +6 on saves for 24 hours

I wonder if he casts that everyday or just for the tomb.




Sacrifice Forgotten :(



BTW, we now know that Xykon has been busy, but yet, he's also been ...

wait for it ...

doormant.

Nice one :smallbiggrin:

[Hopeless]

Three thoughts.

1) Can any of them detect Halfling?
I'd assume Serini is probably buried near the correct Gate.

2) What if Serini deliberately moved the statue sort of how Girard did with his phoney location?

3) What if the correct decision is to blow up all of the doors as that would reveal the true gate's location?

[Nettlekid]

That Extended Fortunate Fate is a Chekhov's Gun if ever I've seen one. The Giant could have named any number of buff spells for Redcloak (and did) from Core sources. It's always a little surprising (in-comic) when material is taken out of Core, like when Tsukiko used Electric Orb. For that particular spell to be chosen I think we can count on Redcloak being killed at some point in the very near future and coming back when no one, least of all Xykon who doesn't care about Redcloak's spell selection, expects it.

[hroþila]

I'm getting this feeling that Kraagor didn't kill nearly as many goblins as Redcloak claims. How could he possibly know what he did if his sacrifice and life was forgotten?
By reading Serini's diary.

[CoffeeIncluded]

Well I guess this confirms that Serini is also out of the picture.

[Whelk]

I like the subtle changes to Xykon's design.

[DaggerPen]

Oh boy. It never occurred to me that there'd be anything more than a slog through all the monsters to this - but while it was made in honor of Kraagor, I suppose it was also made by a rogue, wasn't it? Very well done.

[Tentreto]

So MitD has paint to mark where they have been, but is also wary of Xylon. I think MitD may do some extra painting if he sees an opportunity...

Also, I agree that it is likely the gate is at the statue, or there is the true final dungeon below it.

[KillingAScarab]

I'm getting this feeling that Kraagor didn't kill nearly as many goblins as Redcloak claims. How could he possibly know what he did if his sacrifice and life was forgotten?He can learn things The Dark One is aware of, as pointed out in the comic.

I'm pretty sure there's a crayon page where the Order of the Scribble are making bets about who can kill more goblins. Since they were integral to the history of the Gates, knowledge of the party could have been passed on through the Crimson Mantle as part of The Plan.

[Christopher K.]

I know that the Order of the Scribble stopped "officially" communicating, but considering how there are all the hearts around Girard in Serini's diary and how the programmed message said Girard and Serini were both alerted when the Order of the Stick were at the fake location in the desert, could she have enlisted his help in illusion-ing the gate at some point before he died?

[Shining Wrath]

I know that the Order of the Scribble stopped "officially" communicating, but considering how there are all the hearts around Girard in Serini's diary and how the programmed message said Girard and Serini were both alerted when the Order of the Stick were at the fake location in the desert, could she have enlisted his help in illusion-ing the gate at some point before he died?

An excellent point; the Gate isn't below the statue, it's below an anonymous clump of snow 215 feet SSE of the statue. :smallsmile:

[Jay R]

Instead, it's several hundred very large dungeon crawls. Spend all day investigating one, only to find it does not lead you to the gate.

Sorry Princess. Your Gate is in another dungeon.


In before the inevitable reveal where all the doors are fake and the Gate is hidden within the statue.

Right. The con isn't in getting you to pick the wrong dungeon. The con is in getting you to accept that the basic premise of the game is still being followed. The con is in getting you to pick a dungeon at all. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0428.html)


So do all of those doors lead to a respawning dungeon? If so then I would think Oona would already know that the monsters come back.

She does. Eighth panel (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1039.html). She specifically said, "Wait. Then monsters come back. Start all over."

[Ganbatte]

So here I am, refreshing the site.

Neat, a new strip is up!

Nice, it looks a lot more interesting than the last one.

Fortunate Fate? Didn't know that *check* Wow, nice spell


Read down


Damn Redcloak's sure a top villain now, look at those buffs!


Read down


See Xykon's new face

PPFTTHHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHA H hah *cough* HAHAHahahahah

ahahahahaHAHahah https://youtu.be/aFfPWU1Fzvk?t=33s

[Storm_Of_Snow]

Does the upper half of Kraagors statue look familiar to anyone else (in the last pane). :smallbiggrin:

Ah, so it wasn't just me then. :smallwink:

[Hamste]

Thinking about it in the scribbles we see the gate is above the ground, slightly bigger than dwarf statue sized and we know the gate can't be moved. Is it possible the statue is the thing holding the gate closed kind of like the sapphire?

[Kantaki]

That dungeon design is pure evil.:smallamused: Especially if there are monsters and tunnels behind every door.
The good thing is, unless Team Evil removes them, those marks will make the Order's life easier.

[Captain Raveman]

For a while I was predicting that Kraagor's statue was going to turn out to be magically animated and be the final obstacle guarding the dungeon/tomb, but now it seems to be outside the dungeon/tomb itself.

[Doug Lampert]

I believe statistically speaking you might as well just do the doors in order.

That would be true if Sereni choose which door held the gate at random.

She almost certainly did not. Trying to outguess her may or may not be better than random chance, depending on how much better or worse at that sort of game she was than you are.

Of course, as others have pointed out, if she's any good at that sort of game then you won't easily find the gate behind any of the doors, if it's behind a door at all it's well enough hidden that she expected it to be missed by anyone that picked the correct door. So if you assume the gate is actually easily findable by opening the correct door and killing something exposed, then you're assuming she's not actually good at this game or is deliberately messing up as some sort of tribute to Kragor, in which case you may as well also assume you can outguess her and that therefor you're better off not to go in order or randomly yourself.

[Zack Norglad]

I don't care if and how much of it is an act - Oona is awesome.

She is damn right, too: A mask like that is stylish yet functional.

Oona knows best - white masks without any nose or mouth holes/elements and with red markings/lines/shapes are the pinnacle of aesthetic perfection.

[Crusher]

Nice!

Sereni's made sure Kraagor has a really annoying legacy.

Sadly, I suspect we're not going to see Team Evil again for a while now that we know what they've been up to, and what they're going to continue being up to for the forseeable future.

[Kopmon]

This was awesome.

Red Cloak has got to be my favorite character on Team Evil.

I don't know if the whole 'Statue is a hidden secret' really fits with me. It seems like an obvious and silly place to hide, don't you think? Perhaps I'm subscribed to the idea that we had our fill of deception and trickery back at Jirad's gate.

Who knows? I for one, am looking forward to these mega monsters vs. Team Evil.

[Cizak]

Well I guess this confirms that Serini is also out of the picture.

I still believe she's alive somewhere. The Order, as well as the readers, need a first hand telling of what actually went down between the Scribble members, and she's the only candidate left to tell it.

[Jasdoif]

That would be true if Sereni choose which door held the gate at random.

She almost certainly did not. Trying to outguess her may or may not be better than random chance, depending on how much better or worse at that sort of game she was than you are.

Of course, as others have pointed out, if she's any good at that sort of game then you won't easily find the gate behind any of the doors, if it's behind a door at all it's well enough hidden that she expected it to be missed by anyone that picked the correct door. So if you assume the gate is actually easily findable by opening the correct door and killing something exposed, then you're assuming she's not actually good at this game or is deliberately messing up as some sort of tribute to Kragor, in which case you may as well also assume you can outguess her and that therefor you're better off not to go in order or randomly yourself.Or suppose the key involves opening a sequence of doors in order. Even if that sequence is only two doors long, going through the doors methodically via a simple system is guaranteed to fail if those two doors aren't adjacent.

[CardboardPizzas]

Xykon looks frickin' awesome! I like how he has a spine/neck now! :xykon:

[Windscion]

I am pleased that the Giant saw fit to make it absolutely clear that Oona can understand Greyview.
And the roaches "void where prohibited by Chaos."

[LasVegasLawyer]

Heh. Doubt it'd make me look that good.

Anyway, she was the rogue? I couldn't remember her role off the top of my heap, seeing as there's been four 'Order of X Line' groups so far, but that would answer my question. I'm leaning towards monsters breeding right now, seeing as the Order of the Scribble is so old that it'd be just as likely that the original monsters, or at least the less long-lived ones, are dead of old age at this.

Her biography was "The Life and Time of Serini Toormuck, Halfling Rogue." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0195.html) So yes, she was the party's rogue.

[Bodica]

Did anyone else notice that the Mitd doesn't leave snow prints, but everyone else does? Does this mean the umbrella masks his footprints, or does he float/fly?

[Seto]

That Extended Fortunate Fate is a Chekhov's Gun if ever I've seen one. The Giant could have named any number of buff spells for Redcloak (and did) from Core sources. It's always a little surprising (in-comic) when material is taken out of Core, like when Tsukiko used Electric Orb. For that particular spell to be chosen I think we can count on Redcloak being killed at some point in the very near future and coming back when no one, least of all Xykon who doesn't care about Redcloak's spell selection, expects it.
That's a really good point. Maybe combined with the Chekhov's Gun that is Xykon's old enchantment on MitD? I could see them arguing when they find the Gate, try the ritual, and Xykon somehow discovers that the ritual doesn't do what it's supposed to (or MitD discovers it and is compelled to obey the enchantment, since he seems to be knowledgeable about magic/reading magic/the ritual (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0700.html)). Then MitD eats Redcloak, spit him out along with his amulet, Xykon leave him for dead, and bam! Fortunate Fate kicks in.

Plus all that drama would give time for the Paladins/maybe the Order to show up.

[Anarion]

Wow. They've only been doing a door a day apparently, and they're burning some powerful spells. I'm glad that Serini was the type to get majorly carried away.

[Commander672]

The Irony here is if Xylon had just taken the Hobgoblin army with him this puzzle would be solved in no time flat. I suppose travel times would have been longer but it might have been worth it to just say "Everyone grab a squad and pick a door. If you die, try to scream as loudly as possible so we know to send another squad in later."

[Rankor]

Nice comic, but I had to download it and zoom in to read some of the small print. Also, i think xykon looked better before he had a separate jaw. I monder if his new look is in preparation for him getting his jaw knocked off.

[Demolator]

I have 0 idea what fortune fate does and why it's important, but I think Xykon's about to kill Redcloak

[Quibblicious]

Did anyone else notice that the Mitd doesn't leave snow prints, but everyone else does? Does this mean the umbrella masks his footprints, or does he float/fly?

Excellent observation.

That means he either floats, flies, or otherwise doesn't leave prints (like most fey).

Q

[Shining Wrath]

For a while I was predicting that Kraagor's statue was going to turn out to be magically animated and be the final obstacle guarding the dungeon/tomb, but now it seems to be outside the dungeon/tomb itself.

Hiding the gate within the statue would be amusing, but it's been done.

[ThePhantom]

Its a nice comic, very good, but I do prefer how Xykon looked before, a simple design but it worked great. Well, maybe in time I'll get used to it.

[Quibblicious]

Hiding the gate within the statue would be amusing, but it's been done.

Mr. B isn't into repetition, so I concur. I do think the caves and all their doors are a misdirection of the first order. Where the actual gate is is another question...


Q

[NihhusHuotAliro]

Poor Kraagor looks so dorky with those glasses.

Also, I love the last panel, with all those doors. I'd like it as a wallpaper.

[Faltenin]

I like it when others are protective of their great farming spots too, especially when they have Tailoring (or Leatherworking, most probably) as their secondary profession :smallamused:

[Auburn Bright]

Aw, no love for new Xykon? I think the new head shape really works. His features seem to fit better than when it was a perfect oval. Also, the brow is a nice detail.

[Quibblicious]

Ballad of the Doors

Darkness hidden beneath the earth;
Blood marked for their lives;
Always seeking, never found
Beneath the grey cloud sky;

A Thousand doors,
A Thousand lives,
A Thousand choices made;

Thunder cracks the lonely night;
The doors will mark their graves.

Hmmmm...

Not bad for a first pass...

Q

[Quibblicious]

Ballad of the Doors

Darkness hidden beneath the earth;
Blood marked for their lives;
Always seeking, never found
Beneath the grey cloud sky;

A Thousand doors,
A Thousand lives,
A Thousand choices made;

Thunder cracks the lonely night;
The doors will mark their graves.

Hmmmm...

Not bad for a first pass...

Q

FWIW, I've been listening to a fair amount of Disturbed lately, so it's got that vibe for this part of the OOTSverse.

Yeah, I quoted myself. I'm just that quotable.

Q

[Shining Wrath]

Mr. B isn't into repetition, so I concur. I do think the caves and all their doors are a misdirection of the first order. Where the actual gate is is another question...


Q

Oooooh ...

The Bugbears built their village right ... on ... top of the real gate. When Xykon finds out he'll just go Dresden on the village, and things will go very badly very quickly for Oona

[ChillerInstinct]

The irony of the door system is that Girard really could have used something like this. All those doors with a bunch of epic illusions would probably have made for a better stalling/ambush tactic than what his Gate provided (admittedly we only saw what was left AFTER the Draketooth clan bit it, but still)


The Irony here is if Xylon had just taken the Hobgoblin army with him this puzzle would be solved in no time flat. I suppose travel times would have been longer but it might have been worth it to just say "Everyone grab a squad and pick a door. If you die, try to scream as loudly as possible so we know to send another squad in later."

This too. Irony seems to be the word of the day for Team Evil.

Either way, this is DEFINITELY going to slow them down long enough that the Order's detour to stop Hel is completely guilt-free.

...Hmm. Redcloak should be getting XP for this, aye? If he wasn't Epic already, this is a rather convenient opportunity to close the level gap between him and Xykon...

[Lkctgo]

Hmm. Wonder what the chances are that it's another shell game. Wouldn't serini also place a bit of her profession into this particular gate building?

[ellindsey]

Excellent observation.

That means he either floats, flies, or otherwise doesn't leave prints (like most fey).

Q

In 474 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0474.html), the MitD was specifically described as leaving tracks, though none were drawn, but they were also described as "Weird".

[ChillerInstinct]

In 474 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0474.html), the MitD was specifically described as leaving tracks, though none were drawn, but they were also described as "Weird".

Now, THIS is interesting. Can anyone think of why the MitD would leave tracks on grass (note that the terrain is described as "plains") and not snow? Presumably the MitD hasn't been given any buff spells that would induce that...

Could it be some sort of ice monster, and refroze the snow as it walked? I know that sounds pretty... grasping, but... meh.

[DaggerPen]

I would point out that the MitD was dragging a table and two bodies when he left tracks, but only has an umbrella here. Not that I think the MitD floats, but for the sake of completeness...

[Ninjaman]

Does the upper half of Kraagors statue look familiar to anyone else (in the last pane). :smallbiggrin:

Or is there just so much one can do with stickfigures? :smalltongue:

Nice touch, I think it is intentional.


It is going to take forever for them to finish everything if they have a 5 minute adventure day.

Also any bets on the gate being hidden underneath the statue of the dwarf? After all why give them any chance to guess the right door when you can give them no chance.

Now that you say it that does seem probable, so it's unlikely true :smalltongue:

[StLordeth]

Ah I like the way the Tomb is set up. This was the best comic since fighting Tarquin on the airship in my opinion. Redcloak, Xykon, MITD and the new additions have great dialogue.

On another note I can't believe it's issue 1039. I've been reading this since Cliffport.

[Jasdoif]

Now, THIS is interesting. Can anyone think of why the MitD would leave tracks on grass (note that the terrain is described as "plains") and not snow? Presumably the MitD hasn't been given any buff spells that would induce that...Boots of the Winterlands (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#bootsoftheWinterlands) would account for it. It'd also prevent slipping on ice, which would be useful if Xykon/Redcloak assume MitD is clumsy enough to slip and fall (and possibly crush through the ice in a way that would inconvenience them).

[Phoniex]

so the reason why team evil can not use divination magic to find the gate is? I know Xycon is "bad" at it and that red cloak's god can not give information that he does not know... but just like clerics of hel using thor's might/weather control.. shouldn't clerics of the dark one be allowed to use "find the path" by the same reasoning? I mean what about the god code/agreement? Thor has to be Ok with being stopped by a cleric from controlling lighting for a spell, but red cloak loses the power of the spells because of other gods?

Another stupid question, why not just go astral and explore the gates without fighting all the monsters?

[Berserk Knight]

Serini was a rogue, right? (looks at :haley:)

I'm with the "this is another shell game" camp.

Or maybe it's the Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade, and the real door is the seemingly plain and uninteresting maintenance door.

...This one might work. Trapdoor, under the ice, under the snow.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Serini was a rogue, right? (looks at :haley:)

(This comment selected to represent all the other "it's a shellgame" comments)

She might be a rogue but, two things to keep in mind:
1) We've already seen the "misdirection" dungeon. Rich is not going to repeat himself
2) She wanted to build a dungeon that prized physical might to honor her fallen friend. She would not cheapen it by then having the solution be "to sneak around".

Grey Wolf

[Red Wizard]

"Sometimes shaman is with the asking and the helping."
I wonder if the Giant has ever read Mistborn?

[Jasdoif]

shouldn't clerics of the dark one be allowed to use "find the path" by the same reasoning?Find the path (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/findThePath.htm) specifically works for locations, not objects at locations.

[silvadel]

Just what team evil needs -- more levels. Although Xykon's epicness might reduce the exp gain Redcloak and Oona get to a relative crawl.

[LordRahl6]

The splash page of Kraagor's Tomb was fun giving me the thought of "pick a door any door.":smalltongue:

[Quibblicious]

In 474 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0474.html), the MitD was specifically described as leaving tracks, though none were drawn, but they were also described as "Weird".

Oooh, good catch. I forgot about that.

BUT!

It could be that in some circumstances he doesn't leave tracks.

Maybe...

Q

[Quibblicious]

so the reason why team evil can not use divination magic to find the gate is? I know Xycon is "bad" at it and that red cloak's god can not give information that he does not know... but just like clerics of hel using thor's might/weather control.. shouldn't clerics of the dark one be allowed to use "find the path" by the same reasoning? I mean what about the god code/agreement? Thor has to be Ok with being stopped by a cleric from controlling lighting for a spell, but red cloak loses the power of the spells because of other gods?

Another stupid question, why not just go astral and explore the gates without fighting all the monsters?

re: Divination -- RC can't learn what his god doesn't know. The Dark one doesn't know where the gate is; the other gods hid that knowledge from him, as stated at the top of this strip.

As far as astral; there could be astral beings guarding that path as well, and they tend to be nastier.

Q

[Armitage]

I believe statistically speaking you might as well just do the doors in order.
Well, doing things 'in order' is probably not the first thing a chaotic evil lich thinks about. Or the second. Or the third.
Also, maybe they tried the most likely doors first (using magic to detect evil/good/magic/whatever).

[Knaight]

I would point out that the MitD was dragging a table and two bodies when he left tracks, but only has an umbrella here. Not that I think the MitD floats, but for the sake of completeness...

We know that at some point the MitD ended up next to a table with a body and a paralyzed person. We technically don't know that the MitD transported them there, and even if we make the assumption that the MitD did we don't know that dragging was used. As just one alternative, he could have carried them.

[Shining Wrath]

(This comment selected to represent all the other "it's a shellgame" comments)

She might be a rogue but, two things to keep in mind:
1) We've already seen the "misdirection" dungeon. Rich is not going to repeat himself
2) She wanted to build a dungeon that prized physical might to honor her fallen friend. She would not cheapen it by then having the solution be "to sneak around".

Grey Wolf

She violated point (2) the minute she added a second door. If I were going to build a 3.5 dungeon that rewarded fighters / barbarians / martials, it'd feature:

A very long series of rooms that have to be dealt with one at a time - no teleporting
Occasionally, a room contains an AMF that removes buff spells
If you prepare spells or rest you are teleported back to the start and the rooms refill with monsters


Now that would emphasize the one thing the fighter can do that the Wizard / Cleric / Druid cannot - keep on swinging a sword hour after hour for dozens of encounters that would make any spellcaster burn through their prepared spells for the day.

[Lombard]

Holy Keep on the Borderlands on steroids! 10000% of your RDA of vitamin B2!

Not only that but we get the strip to answer future trivia versions of Where's Burlewaldo. I just love the excitement conveyed by this one. A bit worried that these guys are going to be leveling up through all this but I guess it's gonna go at the speed of plot in any event. Hmm one might say that "Sacrifice Forgotten" seems a bit turned around... But anyways. Me like.:thog:

[Lord Raziere]

Nope. Don't think its misdirection.

Its one of those doors, but the monsters within are so strong that even epic level adventurers have to be ready and prepared to go through even one a day. If I were designing it, each passage would winding, branches out into two or passages within, probably has encounter combinations that are hell to get through, probably has anti-scrying and teleportation fiat stuff just to make sure no one can bypass any of it, probably has monsters that you can't sneak around, monsters respawning fast enough that you have to fight your back to the entrance when your reach the end, just designed to be an endless slog of pain, unfair monster encounters, mind-numbing repetition, constantly being outnumbered that wears you down, tires you out, and eventually kills you when you simply have no more spells or HP left.

every other dungeon had some trick to it: Dorukan made sure only the pure of heart could access the gate and put many other abjurations up. Lirian had nature protect and surround it, trusting that nature would never let some outside influence destroy itself. Soon relied upon a Paladin's honor, their integrity to protect the Gate to sacrifice their lives no matter what to make sure no one could get to it. Giraard relied upon misdirection, lies and tricks at every level.

but Kraagor? Nah. He is a DWARF. he would dismiss all that as unreliable. then he would say "we only need strength, pure strength! if they really want the Gate, they gotta endure hell for it!" its just a big wall of "screw you" miles thick, and the only way your getting through is getting out your mining pick and laboriously, patiently hammering away bit by bit. the Serini's contribution is figuring out ways to make sure their only choice to go through the slog no matter what, and maybe some good ol' fashioned Tomb of Horrors-style traps, I'm figuring.

and the crowning last defense? the biggest, nastiest, high-CR boss monster that one could possibly think of, one that makes the MitD or a Tarrasque look like a cute puppy, and capable of single-handedly TPKing any party of adventurers you care to think of. the sheer number of dead adventurers this dungeon would be capable of producing would be enough to make people think twice about even going near it.

[Wildstag]

It seems they have chosen poorly. Perhaps luck isn't necessary. They just need to choose wisely. Also, is Kraagor supposed to look like the Giant in the last panel? Because to me, he kinda does.

[DaggerPen]

We know that at some point the MitD ended up next to a table with a body and a paralyzed person. We technically don't know that the MitD transported them there, and even if we make the assumption that the MitD did we don't know that dragging was used. As just one alternative, he could have carried them.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0484.html

I'll grant that we don't see the MitD dragging them there, but we do see the MitD dragging O-Chul here. It's a fairly logical conclusion, enough so to make an argument in favor of the MitD being a flying creature, just not one against the MitD not flying.

[Clistenes]

Of course, it will be Haley Starshine who will point that Serini Toormuck, being a Rogue like herself, will play a Shell Game and the "ball" (the Gate) isn't in any of the "shells" (dungeons), but somewhere else...

The irony is, Redcloak tried to play a Shell Game of his own against the Azure Guard, but now he's fallen for it.


Nope. Don't think its misdirection.

Its one of those doors, but the monsters within are so strong that even epic level adventurers have to be ready and prepared to go through even one a day. If I were designing it, each passage would winding, branches out into two or passages within, probably has encounter combinations that are hell to get through, probably has anti-scrying and teleportation fiat stuff just to make sure no one can bypass any of it, probably has monsters that you can't sneak around, monsters respawning fast enough that you have to fight your back to the entrance when your reach the end, just designed to be an endless slog of pain, unfair monster encounters, mind-numbing repetition, constantly being outnumbered that wears you down, tires you out, and eventually kills you when you simply have no more spells or HP left.

every other dungeon had some trick to it: Dorukan made sure only the pure of heart could access the gate and put many other abjurations up. Lirian had nature protect and surround it, trusting that nature would never let some outside influence destroy itself. Soon relied upon a Paladin's honor, their integrity to protect the Gate to sacrifice their lives no matter what to make sure no one could get to it. Giraard relied upon misdirection, lies and tricks at every level.

but Kraagor? Nah. He is a DWARF. he would dismiss all that as unreliable. then he would say "we only need strength, pure strength! if they really want the Gate, they gotta endure hell for it!" its just a big wall of "screw you" miles thick, and the only way your getting through is getting out your mining pick and laboriously, patiently hammering away bit by bit. the Serini's contribution is figuring out ways to make sure their only choice to go through the slog no matter what, and maybe some good ol' fashioned Tomb of Horrors-style traps, I'm figuring.

and the crowning last defense? the biggest, nastiest, high-CR boss monster that one could possibly think of, one that makes the MitD or a Tarrasque look like a cute puppy, and capable of single-handedly TPKing any party of adventurers you care to think of. the sheer number of dead adventurers this dungeon would be capable of producing would be enough to make people think twice about even going near it.

Kraagor didn't build the dungeon. Serini, a halfling rogue, built it.

[Jasdoif]

It seems they have chosen poorly. Perhaps luck isn't necessary. They just need to choose wisely.That's what I thought at first, but then I realized...those doors appear wooden, so aren't they all the door of a carpenter?

[Porthos]

Put me in Camp Not Misdirection.

We've already done that with Girard; no reason to do it again. And, no, putting a hundred doors up and saying "Pick a door, any door" isn't misdirection. It's flat out telling you what is going on.

Now it could be a shell game, but I also doubt that. No, it's behind one of these doors. And what better way to test physical might than to force somone to fight. Over and over and over again. If you fail at Door Number 22? Well, you obviously weren't really strong enough, now were you?

....

Maybe Kraagor had endurance as a feat and this is Serini's way of honoring THAT. :smallwink:

[prism6691]

Its fair to say that even if she tried to build it to value absolute might above all else in respect to Kraagor there would probably be elements other than that. She is an epic level rogue after all. Perhaps a deceptive element that can't be resolved until all the monsters are defeated or all the passages are explored. That being said, if there is a deception its probably not so obvious that the statue is hiding the gate.




Of course, it will be Haley Starshine who will point that Serini Toormuck, being a Rogue like herself, will play a Shell Game and the "ball" (the Gate) isn't in any of the "shells" (dungeons), but somewhere else...

The irony is, Redcloak tried to play a Shell Game of his own against the Azure Guard, but now he's fallen for it.



Kraagor didn't build the dungeon. Serini, a halfling rogue, built it.

[Lord Raziere]

Kraagor didn't build the dungeon. Serini, a halfling rogue, built it.

And she built it to honor KRAAGOR not herself. multiple doors and dungeons is just her going "would Kraagor want them to only endure ONE dungeon of endless monsters, or go through MULTIPLE ONES, just to see that nothing is there and they have to fight all that again just to get back to the entrance and choose another door?" and the answer is obvious because dwarves are predictable as stone: "OF course I would Serini! More battle is best battle! If they can't endure going through this kind of dungeon a hundred times, they don't even deserve to see the gate! Tricks are for the weak! and anyone who can't get past all this, will just be plain too weak to get in!"

he is also a barbarian. so. dwarf barbarians are vey predictable and easy to think for. this is a dwarf barbarians idea of a final dungeon: Endless battle without pause. not hard to see that.

[dmattingly]

One does not simply unlock into More-Door.

[Doug Lampert]

She violated point (2) the minute she added a second door. If I were going to build a 3.5 dungeon that rewarded fighters / barbarians / martials, it'd feature:

A very long series of rooms that have to be dealt with one at a time - no teleporting
Occasionally, a room contains an AMF that removes buff spells
If you prepare spells or rest you are teleported back to the start and the rooms refill with monsters


Now that would emphasize the one thing the fighter can do that the Wizard / Cleric / Druid cannot - keep on swinging a sword hour after hour for dozens of encounters that would make any spellcaster burn through their prepared spells for the day.

The fighter can do that all day as long as the monsters do 0.0 damage per round. In which case team commoner can also deal with it. Or for that matter a Druid's animal companion/wildshape or a cleric with a weapon.

If the monsters are at least trivially dangerous then the best 3.x class for that sort of endurance run is a Cleric. Team cleric has far more endurance than team fighter, because they don't run out of HP or get hit by a condition they can't remove or need to waste 25% of their wealth on items to let them sort of kind of duplicate a lower level cleric.

And they can still bash things with a stick quite well so as to save slots.

[ref]

Does the upper half of Kraagors statue look familiar to anyone else (in the last pane). :smallbiggrin:

Or is thre jsut so much one can do with stickfigures? :smalltongue:

What? Like the Dwarf in the Playground?

[Jay R]

Misdirection is what you have when somebody deliberately makes it difficult to know what direction to take. With at least 115 doors, somebody clearly made it difficult to know which direction to take.

We are not discussing whether or not there is misdirection, but rather, what form the misdirection takes.

[Lingo]

My first thought: It's too bad tOotS currently don't have a cleric either. Hopefully they can resurrect Durkon before they get here.

Second thought: I know how Team Evil are going to find the correct door. They're going to run into the paladins somehow. Then they will force O-Chul to use his own divination spells to find the correct door, by threatening Lien's life (or they'll kill Lien outright and just threaten to trap her soul in a gem forever). Does that sound plausible?

[wumpus]

Her biography was "The Life and Time of Serini Toormuck, Halfling Rogue." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0195.html) So yes, she was the party's rogue.

Weird mix of old rulesets. Haley mentions her father, Ian Starshine, was a 1e thief. Even in 2e, I'd expect a character to be either "thief" or "bard" (although 2 class characters tend to be overpowered (for a little while): if you can get your party to drag your useless self along while re-leveling). See Baldur's Gate for a great introduction to 2e.

I'm guessing this is yet another time the "rule of cool" trumps a one-off joke from before OOTS got serious.

[Seto]

One does not simply unlock into More-Door.

That was pretty fun. You got me all mellon-cholic.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

She violated point (2) the minute she added a second door.

No, she did not. The hundred-door thing is the equivalent of having one entrance tunnel that forks a hundred times... except even more honest. There is no deception on the doors: just promise of monsters beyond, for you to fight. Do you need to pick a door? Sure, but unless the tunnels rearrange themselves overnight (and probably they don't, or the paint would not work), this continues to be straightforward.

Hel, for all we know, the only way to find the rift is to fight your way through all the tunnels.

GW

[Rogar Demonblud]

My first thought: It's too bad tOotS currently don't have a cleric either. Hopefully they can resurrect Durkon before they get here.

Second thought: I know how Team Evil are going to find the correct door. They're going to run into the paladins somehow. Then they will force O-Chul to use his own divination spells to find the correct door, by threatening Lien's life (or they'll kill Lien outright and just threaten to trap her soul in a gem forever). Does that sound plausible?

Paladins don't have divination (barring Detect Evil).

Also, Serini you deceitful furrfoot you.:smallbiggrin:

[Grey Watcher]

Oh gods! Monster closets! :shudders from FF II flashbacks:

[Quibblicious]

That's what I thought at first, but then I realized...those doors appear wooden, so aren't they all the door of a carpenter?

It's the one with the old knight behind it.

Q

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I guess there is a pretty good reason why Team Evil hasn't cracked the gate yet. Also, I love the extra details that the update adds to Xykon and Redcloak. Redcloak is quite menacing.

So, if you pick a door and a different door is opened and revealed not to have the rift in it, should I switch doors? :smallbiggrin:

[Burner28]

Glad to see Xykon again.

[Kantaki]

Oh gods! Monster closets! :shudders from FF II flashbacks:

:smalleek:Thanks for reminding me of those things.
Getting out of those was so much fun:smallannoyed:
But at least it was immediately clear that they were dead-ends.
I expect Serini’s version to be worse.
Fortunately it's Team Evil that has to brave this Dungeon. That makes me feel less bad.

[Lingo]

Paladins don't have divination (barring Detect Evil).

Also, Serini you deceitful furrfoot you.:smallbiggrin:

Oops.
Then again, as soon as I posted my theory, it occurred to me that if that could have possibly worked, Redcloak would have tried it on O-Chul in Azure City.

[gooddragon1]

I feel like the statue is a cameo of Rich Burlew after the graffiti was added. With more beard. It just looks kinda the same.

Also, Xykon is really sticking his neck out here. Really going out on a limb.

[SavageWombat]

I love the reader explanations of the "purpose" of this dungeon. Well done, guys.

So - does Roy (or Elan!) have some ability to find the correct door that Xykon doesn't - or does this put Roy in the position of letting Team Evil do the hard work for him for a change?

[ti'esar]

All I can say to this one is finally. I've been anticipating Kraagor's Tomb for some time.

Now, to what extent does this finish the conspiracy theories about what happened to Durkon's parents...?

[luagha]

Nope. Don't think its misdirection.

and the crowning last defense? the biggest, nastiest, high-CR boss monster that one could possibly think of, one that makes the MitD or a Tarrasque look like a cute puppy, and capable of single-handedly TPKing any party of adventurers you care to think of. the sheer number of dead adventurers this dungeon would be capable of producing would be enough to make people think twice about even going near it.

Ut oh. You just stated that the final boss monster is MITD's dad.

[luagha]

I love the reader explanations of the "purpose" of this dungeon. Well done, guys.

So - does Roy (or Elan!) have some ability to find the correct door that Xykon doesn't - or does this put Roy in the position of letting Team Evil do the hard work for him for a change?

Elan's Sense Plot ability might give him a clue, but only if he could swing in and crash through a window dramatically. It would be best if they were just arriving as Team Evil is down to the last door that it HAS to be.

As for me, I'm hoping that we'll get a look to see exactly how rough the upcoming door is.. which will tell us how many times Xykon has been taken out and had to reform at his phylac-

Oops. If Xykon is killed, that means Redcloak had better get his green butt to Xykon's astral fort to switch amulets.

[sotanaht]

Instead, it's several hundred very large dungeon crawls. Spend all day investigating one, only to find it does not lead you to the gate.

GW

Or maybe it does, and you just missed a secret room. And then you never go back. Only the wisest of the wise turn the same stone twice.

[Shining Wrath]

Misdirection is what you have when somebody deliberately makes it difficult to know what direction to take. With at least 115 doors, somebody clearly made it difficult to know which direction to take.

We are not discussing whether or not there is misdirection, but rather, what form the misdirection takes.


No, she did not. The hundred-door thing is the equivalent of having one entrance tunnel that forks a hundred times... except even more honest. There is no deception on the doors: just promise of monsters beyond, for you to fight. Do you need to pick a door? Sure, but unless the tunnels rearrange themselves overnight (and probably they don't, or the paint would not work), this continues to be straightforward.

Hel, for all we know, the only way to find the rift is to fight your way through all the tunnels.

GW

Obviously I side with Jay R on this one. A pure strength test, nothing else, is "walk through the door and start fighting. Stop fighting when you reach the gate." Anything else requires thought. Traps? Forks? Doors? Thinking.


The fighter can do that all day as long as the monsters do 0.0 damage per round. In which case team commoner can also deal with it. Or for that matter a Druid's animal companion/wildshape or a cleric with a weapon.

If the monsters are at least trivially dangerous then the best 3.x class for that sort of endurance run is a Cleric. Team cleric has far more endurance than team fighter, because they don't run out of HP or get hit by a condition they can't remove or need to waste 25% of their wealth on items to let them sort of kind of duplicate a lower level cleric.

And they can still bash things with a stick quite well so as to save slots.

Until you run out of healing spells, in which case the question is "Who has the most HP"? Not the cleric.

[Castamir]

Doors marked with "already checked" signs... MitD with a bucket of paint and a brush...

Oy vey... the Giant couldn't have said this louder.

[tsotate]

Redcloak has the strangest accent I've ever read. This is the first time I've ever seen "Divine Metamagic Persistent" pronounced "Extended".

[Doug Lampert]

Until you run out of healing spells, in which case the question is "Who has the most HP"? Not the cleric.

A level 1 cleric has 2 fewer HP than a fighter, and about 2d8+6 extra points of healing (better than that if he has the healing domain). He runs out of healing spells about 2 encounters after the fighter is DEAD!

It gets worse as you go up in level. A high level cleric has something like 10x as many HP available as the fighter, and spells to spare after that.

So yeah, at the point in an endurance run where 50 or so fighters are all dead, a crew of 4 or so clerics STARTS to run short on spells and healing.

Fighters are utter crap at endurance runs.


Redcloak has the strangest accent I've ever read. This is the first time I've ever seen "Divine Metamagic Persistent" pronounced "Extended".

If he had divine metamagic persistent he'd be using it one better spells with a shorter normal duration.

[Spartakus]

Why do I have this sudden urge to listen to The Doors?

Great comic, as always! Thanks Giant!

[Reyes]

Xykon was reeeeally snarky towards Redcloak, even for him. He must be running empty on patience. I'm interested in seeing how this particular delving goes.

Same with Redcloak. At least for awhile now anyway. I guess that whole feeding Tsukiko to her own wights thing changed things a bit.

[gooddragon1]

Xykon was reeeeally snarky towards Redcloak, even for him. He must be running empty on patience. I'm interested in seeing how this particular delving goes.

Bad guys get loot too. I wonder what they'll get :/

[Scizor]

According to my count there aer approximately 120 doors visible on this page, of which 16 have been opened.

[Porthos]

Obviously I side with Jay R on this one. A pure strength test, nothing else, is "walk through the door and start fighting. Stop fighting when you reach the gate." Anything else requires thought. Traps? Forks? Doors? Thinking.

That's.... awfully reductive.:smallsmile: And it eliminates the vast majority of dungeon crawls, classic or otherwise.

More to the point, I am critcizing the ideas of "It's really under the statue" or "The doors shuffle ala a shell game" and the like. All of those are misdirections and bluffs. This looks to be a simple fight, fight, and keep fighting until you get it right. No more, no less.

If the Gate is really under the statue or if the way to the Gate keeps changing or if there is some sort of trickeration that requires the doors to be entered into a certain order, then I think that would be more the way some are suggesting.

This seems to be a "Well, I'm not gonna make it too easy for y'alls. Especially since I ain't gonna be here ever again, unlike all my other compatriots and their respective Gates."

And it is that last point I think a lot of us overlook/keep forgetting. As far as we know, this was set up as a "fire and forget" since Serini didn't want to settle down.

So she created an obnoxious dungeon crawl to end all obnoxious dungeon crawls. Might not be the infamous World's Largest Dungeon (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World%27s_Largest_Dungeon). But, then again, when added all together it might not be far off. :smalltongue:

[Oneris]

There was a story I read a while ago where a warlord was searching all over the world to find the one correct seal out of a thousand fakes that sealed away the body of his lost love. It turned out eventually that none of the seals were fake, but that all of them were a part of a single gigantic seal that could not be released until every last one of them was destroyed.

Maybe this dungeon operates the same way?
There was a great emphasis on the monsters in the dungeon eventually respawning over time, and they're tough enough that even Xykon and crew could only clear a few doors at a time. Maybe to finally reveal the gate, every last door must be cleared and every last monster killed - before any respawn.

Given the vast number of doors, sheer difficulty of the monsters, and near impossibility to pinpoint where exactly a respawned monster could be, using conventional methods the gate would likely never be revealed.

[Keltest]

I feel like the statue is a cameo of Rich Burlew after the graffiti was added. With more beard. It just looks kinda the same.

Also, Xykon is really sticking his neck out here. Really going out on a limb.

Clearly this is Rich's announcement that he plans to grow out a mighty warrior beard.

[NerdyKris]

No, she did not. The hundred-door thing is the equivalent of having one entrance tunnel that forks a hundred times... except even more honest. There is no deception on the doors: just promise of monsters beyond, for you to fight. Do you need to pick a door? Sure, but unless the tunnels rearrange themselves overnight (and probably they don't, or the paint would not work), this continues to be straightforward.

Hel, for all we know, the only way to find the rift is to fight your way through all the tunnels.

GW

Or all of the tunnels are misdirection, and she just sealed the entire gate off completely. I doubt there is one tunnel that leads straight to the gate. That would be taking a exceptional risk for no reason. All someone would have to do is randomly choose the correct one. An army could go through the tunnels even faster. The gate isn't a reward, the monsters are there to stop people looking for the gate. It doesn't make sense to say "Well, you were strong enough to beat our monsters, the gate is yours!"

[Porthos]

My other objection to it being under the statue can be neatly summed up by Haley herself in this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0697.html) where she observed that when one doesn't know which way to go, looking in the obvious spot first becomes more appealing, not less.

If the way to the gate is under the statue, being so visible makes it MORE likely for someone to search it first than less. Why check 120 things when someone can check 1?

Even if they start with the doors, after about the eighth or ninth failed expedition into the Dungeon of More Door (props to dmattingly for that! :smallcool:), most even slightly paranoid adventuring parties are going to say "Screw this, let me look for another way in". And here is a statue sticking out like a sore thumb just begging to be looked at.

Finally, even if folks reject it as a double bluff, after the fifteenth or so failed expidition, even those folks might say "screw it, look in the mouth of the statue - annihilation is probably preferable to this." :smallamused:

[Phoniex]

Find the path (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/findThePath.htm) specifically works for locations, not objects at locations.

So the room that the gate is in? in your example you are saying that the gate is a object that I can move.. like a apple or a sword. The gate however is a immovable place, ie a location that you should be able to find path too. The important point with the spell to me is that he path from team evil to the gate can not be changed (just like the path from team evil to say goblintopia) without changing the geography of the world.. so find the path to get to the gate room if you prefer that term seems reasonable. Just like to me if one cleric spell has to work against the gods because that is the agreement that all the gods/clerics/domains have, then red cloaks spell should work just the same.

[Lheticus]

LEGO Hobgoblin: Lord Xykon! We're trying to locate the Gate, but the entrance to the tomb protecting it is so generic, it matches every other tomb in our database!

LEGO Xykon: Diabolical...


Also, I'm totally calling it that somehow the real Gate is behind NONE of those doors. As in, I'm going with "None of the above" in answer to the Multiple Choice. ;)

[Phoniex]

re: Divination -- RC can't learn what his god doesn't know. The Dark one doesn't know where the gate is; the other gods hid that knowledge from him, as stated at the top of this strip.

As far as astral; there could be astral beings guarding that path as well, and they tend to be nastier.

Q

And as I stated there seems to be a god agreement about the powers clerics wield, just like a cleric of hel keeping thor's lighting at bay so should a divination spell be allowed to work from a cleric of the dark one. Why? because the gods have an agreement that it should work, otherwise red cloak should not have any clerical magic that works because "all the gods hide that knowledge from him".... and please don't forget that there are elemental clerics and clerics without a specific god that the spell would work for without a specific god "knowing" where something was.

Or team evil can just teleport to any place with any OTHER cleric capable of casting the spell and force them with dominate person to caste the spell to "find a path" or whatever spell is necessary. I mean literally it could be as little as a 3 round mission for team evil: teleport in, caste dominate person, teleport out to find the correct path to the gate room/treasure room/through the maze of possible ways to go to get to the other side of this dungeon. And since team evil is evil.. using a "good" cleric in that way would make Xycon laugh and laugh.. and red cloak has to know about the possibility of a spell because its on his spell list...

The problem for team evil is they don't know which way to go in a dungeon to get to the treasure at the end.. guess what there are spells for that.

And I still don't understand why not go Astral, even if the monsters are worse than normal monsters.. there are bound to be much fewer so you can go through a dungeon much faster.

[Jasdoif]

So the room that the gate is in? in your example you are saying that the gate is a object that I can move.. like a apple or a sword. The gate however is a immovable place, ie a location that you should be able to find path too. The important point with the spell to me is that he path from team evil to the gate can not be changed (just like the path from team evil to say goblintopia) without changing the geography of the world.. so find the path to get to the gate room if you prefer that term seems reasonable. Just like to me if one cleric spell has to work against the gods because that is the agreement that all the gods/clerics/domains have, then red cloaks spell should work just the same.Look at your first sentence: "the room that the gate is in". The Gate isn't a location, the Gate is an object at a location. And you can't know the location of the Gate room, assuming the Gate is in fact in a room, without knowing where the room is in the first place.

[DaggerPen]

Didn't Durkon try Find the Path in Windy Canyon and have it fail? I know the Scribblers did the defenses on their own, but we know Girard and Sereni (Serini? I'm on mobile and I can't find an easy reference) kept in touch. While the point of this dungeon may have been for the monsters to be the defense, I find it unlikely that Sereni would allow the point of the dungeon to be so easily circumvented by a simple spell. Making it so that you HAVE to fight the monsters and can't clever it away seems entirely in keeping with the spirit here.

[Jasdoif]

Didn't Durkon try Find the Path in Windy Canyon and have it fail?Yep (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0837.html), though Durkon didn't mention what exactly he was using for the location. Later on Zz'dtri tried locate object (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0894.html), which might've worked if the spell wasn't blocked by the thin sheet of lead Roy exposed in the next comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0895.html).


I know the Scribblers did the defenses on their own, but we know Girard and Sereni (Serini? I'm on mobile and I can't find an easy reference) kept in touch."Serini" is correct (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html).

[NihhusHuotAliro]

"Sometimes shaman is with the asking and the helping."
I wonder if the Giant has ever read Mistborn?
Ah, good old Lestibournes.

[Mandor]

But to get the Achievement, you have to open ALL the doors, ALL at once! and then survive the fight without Feign Death or Vanish or other aggro-dropping abilities.

[JoeyTheNeko]

dang, they haven't even made a real notable dent in that gate defence. a worthy tomb for kragor indeed.

also yay xykons back.

[Peelee]

And what better way to test physical might than to force somone to fight. Over and over and over again. If you fail at Door Number 22? Well, you obviously weren't really strong enough, now were you?

I think this is the best way anyone has put it so far. I fully agree with this assessment.

[Emanick]

I believe statistically speaking you might as well just do the doors in order.

Yes, but it's just possible that they picked the door's location nonrandomly, so you might as well check all the doors in a location that somehow "stands out" first - such as the last one, or the first one. Frankly I'd probably do all the bottom ones first, since they might leave the most space for exterior tunnels.

[Silverraptor]

I loved the doors joke! That was incredibly funny! Best way to protect something, literally make as many dungeon crawls as possible!:smallbiggrin:

On another note, seeing Xykon with the graphics update was jarring and unnerving. It may be because his teeth are arranged differently and he appears to have more of them, but he seems a lot more evil looking to me, menacing even. I mean yeah, he's a super evil lich, that should come with the territory, but being comedy gold is his what he is too! I don't know, the new look doesn't fit the comedy he's known for to me for some reason. Just my thoughts on him.

[Phoniex]

Look at your first sentence: "the room that the gate is in". The Gate isn't a location, the Gate is an object at a location. And you can't know the location of the Gate room, assuming the Gate is in fact in a room, without knowing where the room is in the first place.

The gate is a fixed point... it is a doorway to the snarl. It does not move. You can MEET at the opening to a cave or the doorway into a castle. The gate is no different, it is a location that is why it can not move. If you DON't believe that.. then the gate is a obj by your rules. It is STILL in an area, lets call that area or location the "gate room". Since you don't want to be able to go to the gate because it is a obj, then "find the path" to the gate room works. Why? because the gate is a stationary fixed point along with the room it is in, or the end of the hall it is in, or the cliff it is off. Either way magic spells can find the path to them unless stronger magic prevents it. That is the way magic works in D and D.

[Jay R]

That's.... awfully reductive.:smallsmile: And it eliminates the vast majority of dungeon crawls, classic or otherwise.

Of course. "A pure strength test, nothing else" does eliminate the vast majority of dungeon crawls. That was his intent.

By the way, I don't assume that it's under the statue or in Kraagor's Rift. I just don't assume 5that it's behind one of the doors. We are left unsure. On purpose.

[RolkFlameraven]

Huh, I wonder why one of the double doors has two X's but the other one they have hit doesn't? Are those double doors NOT double doors but two different tunnels side by side?

'Sacrifice Forgotten' does seem a bit odd though doesn't it? I mean 'His Sacrifice was Forgotten' or 'Forgotten Sacrifice' sounds better, too me at lest, and it makes me wonder if there is a clue there. (Though it could have been for that 'is for suckers' gag.)

[Necris Omega]

... the ball is in the con man's hand the entire time. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0428.html)

Except this con man has a whole lot more than three shells.

Honestly? I enjoy seeing our villains not just stymied, but stretched to the brink (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0462.html). Solidifies them as legit characters and... well, any good villain is one you enjoy watching squirm, even if you love them in the role they're in.

[Jasdoif]

The gate is a fixed point... it is a doorway to the snarl. It does not move. You can MEET at the opening to a cave or the doorway into a castle. The gate is no different, it is a location that is why it can not move. If you DON't believe that.. then the gate is a obj by your rules. It is STILL in an area, lets call that area or location the "gate room". Since you don't want to be able to go to the gate because it is a obj, then "find the path" to the gate room works. Why? because the gate is a stationary fixed point along with the room it is in, or the end of the hall it is in, or the cliff it is off. Either way magic spells can find the path to them unless stronger magic prevents it. That is the way magic works in D and D.You're going to an awful lot of trouble to insist that a spell can do what its description specifically says it can't do, particularly since the most likely candidate for doing it (Redcloak) already said he can't do it.

[Porthos]

Of course. "A pure strength test, nothing else" does eliminate the vast majority of dungeon crawls. That was his intent.

By the way, I don't assume that it's under the statue or in Kraagor's Rift. I just don't assume 5that it's behind one of the doors. We are left unsure. On purpose.

But why should it be a "pure strength test" if it is to (paraphrasing) honor the legacy of Kraagor? Why get so hung up on the word 'pure'? :smallconfused:

The only line we have is "She decided that she would build a tomb for Kraagor, and fill it with the nastiest monsters in the world, to reflect his belief in the power of physical might."

That doesn't mean the dungeon itself has to be a breeze fest that just one waltzes through. The idea that even be a fork in the dungeon counts as 'misdirection' and therefore Serini has already violated purity so she might as well go whole hog on deception strikes me as somewhat dubious. Hopefully it was tongue-in-cheek. :smallwink:

I just don't think trickery and deceit is going to rule the day here like it did in Girard's dungeon. I am of the belief that is going to be relatively straightforward. But straightforward doesn't mean easy. Or simple. :smallsmile:

[Thanatos95]

THAT SPLASH PANEL.

(Also... "Sacrifice Forgotten"?)

I assume the forgotten part refers to the fact that the order of the scribble wanted to keep the secret of the gates. So no one but them truly knows what happened to Kragor, and the sacrifice he made to save the world.

My theory on the monsters reappearing is that it might be like the talisman in the dungeon of Dorukon. Something that attracts monsters to the location to insure it is always loaded with dangerous beasts even when not being attended.

[ode]

As always, Giant, thanks for the ongoing adventures!

[Phoniex]

You're going to an awful lot of trouble to insist that a spell can do what its description specifically says it can't do, particularly since the most likely candidate for doing it (Redcloak) already said he can't do it.

So if the spell can not find a way to a destination that is unknown to the caster, why would Durkon bother to caste it to try to get to Gerard's gate? How is the order of the sticks situation when they were looking for Gerard's gate any different than team evils situation looking for this gate? Its not, its the exact same, except in the OOTS's situation epic magic was being used to block Durkon's spell. So yes if the a Barbarian and a rouge have access to epic magic to keep the spell from working, that's fine. In fact it makes perfect sense for them to set up a dungeon like this because it would be the hardest way for a barb or a rouge to find the gate... they would not know exactly how magic could make finding the gate easier or how astral travel could negate all the physical monsters that are in place to stop/slow down anyone trying to find the gate.

But since you think you are right, explain to me where it says in the spell description that you need to have been to or seen or whatever the location you are going to before the spell can work. Now if every one of those doors is a gate to another plane, then bravo! but then the question becomes how did a barb and a rouge open and anchor that many gateway spells and if the final gate is even on the normal plane?


Find the path :

"The recipient of this spell can find the shortest, most direct physical route to a specified destination, be it the way into or out of a locale. The locale can be outdoors, underground, or even inside a maze spell. Find the path works with respect to locations, not objects or creatures at a locale. The location must be on the same plane as you are at the time of casting.

The spell enables the subject to sense the correct direction that will eventually lead it to its destination, indicating at appropriate times the exact path to follow or physical actions to take. For example, the spell enables the subject to sense trip wires or the proper word to bypass a glyph of warding. The spell ends when the destination is reached or the duration expires, whichever comes first. Find the path can be used to remove the subject and its companions from the effect of a maze spell in a single round.

This divination is keyed to the recipient, not its companions, and its effect does not predict or allow for the actions of creatures (including guardians). "

[Jasdoif]

But since you think you are right, explain to me where it says in the spell description that you need to have been to or seen or whatever the location you are going to before the spell can work. Now if every one of those doors is a gate to another plane, then bravo!Well since you asked....

Kraagor's Tomb (or Monster Hollow) isn't especially useful since that locale is the whole area;
The Gate itself doesn't work, because it's an object at a locale and not a locale itself;
The room the Gate is in doesn't work as the sole description, because "the room the Gate is in" has the Gate as the subject (unless you're already familiar with the room to provide more detail or something) and find the path doesn't work with objects at a locale;
The region on the other side of the rift inside the Gate doesn't work, because that region is on another plane and find the path doesn't work if the location is on another plane.

[toapat]

The fighter can do that all day as long as the monsters do 0.0 damage per round. In which case team commoner can also deal with it. Or for that matter a Druid's animal companion/wildshape or a cleric with a weapon.

If the monsters are at least trivially dangerous then the best 3.x class for that sort of endurance run is a Cleric. Team cleric has far more endurance than team fighter, because they don't run out of HP or get hit by a condition they can't remove or need to waste 25% of their wealth on items to let them sort of kind of duplicate a lower level cleric.

And they can still bash things with a stick quite well so as to save slots.

the only class which can Trudge through the endless encounters of Bash is Crusader. Everyone else will tire out, will run out of spells, HP, and WBL. while the Fullcasters and Full Psionics will efficiently dive deep into the dungeon, they will run out of resources. Even the most efficiently prepared Psionic Artificer will run out of usable WBL deep into the dungeon because they cant access their crafting mitigation

While the Mundanes fell off first, then the Incarnum and rangers, then the paladins. then the bards would carry deeper and deeper into the dungeon. While the crusaders wouldnt take the lead for days, maybe even months, Slowly their ever recharging Maneuvers and healing would carry them. eating away at the gulf that the Psionic Artificers carved in their Madman charge.

[gerryq]

Monsters big and aggressive enough to deter adventurers require smaller animals as food, which requires a large ecosystem, more so for a breeding population to replace themselves for generations. An ecosystem far, far, far larger than a cave. But in OotS, Drama and Rule of Cool point and laugh at Logic crying in a corner.

To be fair, this applies to every dungeon in the history of RPGs.

[M.A.D]

I'm not sure that I'm too comfortable with Xykon's new neck which he has always has. While this one is more anatomically correct, it also makes him less intimidating due to the lower shoulder of his cloak. Xykon drawn in the old style looked badass enough, whereas this guy looks like the offspring of Barbie and a really ugly mannequin.

Badass cloaks normally have their collars raised up to the chin after all, and even the old Xykon has his chin slightly lower than the highest point of his cape. For this Xykon, I think you should draw his neck shorter, or add some shoulder pads to his cape to make the shoulder look higher. Alternatively, you can have his clavicles shown under his chin if you keep his collar look the same.

Thanks for the chapter, mr Giant!

[Jay R]

To be fair, this applies to every dungeon in the history of RPGs.

Not really. Originally, you could assume that every denizen of a dungeon went up a couple of stairs to find food, since the monsters higher up in the dungeon were always less powerful.*



*The solution to the "level" problem (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0012.html) is to not use the word at all.

[Quibblicious]

Or team evil can just teleport to any place with any OTHER cleric capable of casting the spell and force them with dominate person to caste the spell to "find a path" or whatever spell is necessary. I mean literally it could be as little as a 3 round mission for team evil: teleport in, caste dominate person, teleport out to find the correct path to the gate room/treasure room/through the maze of possible ways to go to get to the other side of this dungeon. And since team evil is evil.. using a "good" cleric in that way would make Xycon laugh and laugh.. and red cloak has to know about the possibility of a spell because its on his spell list...

The problem for team evil is they don't know which way to go in a dungeon to get to the treasure at the end.. guess what there are spells for that.



Panel 3 Redcloak flat out says his god can't tell him because the dark one doesn't have the knowledge.

As for dominating another cleric of another god, that may be unproductive as the gods are deliberately hiding the info and may not even tell their own clerics, plus doing such an act would tip off the other gods that something was afoot. That would ruin the Plan.

Q

[Terbovus]

Does the upper half of Kraagors statue look familiar to anyone else (in the last pane). :smallbiggrin:

Or is there just so much one can do with stickfigures? :smalltongue:

I thought this as well... :smallsmile:

[137beth]

Well there's are first hint as to why Xykon hasn't already taken the Gate....

[Phoniex]

Well since you asked....

Kraagor's Tomb (or Monster Hollow) isn't especially useful since that locale is the whole area;
The Gate itself doesn't work, because it's an object at a locale and not a locale itself;
The room the Gate is in doesn't work as the sole description, because "the room the Gate is in" has the Gate as the subject (unless you're already familiar with the room to provide more detail or something) and find the path doesn't work with objects at a locale;
The region on the other side of the rift inside the Gate doesn't work, because that region is on another plane and find the path doesn't work if the location is on another plane.

First off you are wrong simply because you defy the logic that the gate is a PLACE, as soon as you prove that the gate can be moved like a object then you can treat it as such. But the gate, which you can stand in, meet at, go through, Look through to ANOTHER location, wait at, and arrive at another area by going through.. all defining traits of a LOCATION. Once you defy all those FACTS of every other GATE we have seen in the comic.. then you can go on to the third paragraph where I explain why your still wrong.

Second you still did not explain why Durkon was trying to use the spell in comic to do the exact same thing as team evil needs to be done now. If Durkon could use the spell to find Gerrads gate.. I mean what did he caste it for, to find a pyramid he knew nothing about? No he basically caste it to FIND the gate, IE the same thing team evil could be doing now. I mean Durkon was already in the windy canyon... the only thing he knew about in the comic was there was a gate so that's what he caste it on in the comic already as precedent for the spell. And the spell did not fizzle, its signal got blocked by more powerful magic. Read the comic yourself if you don't understand still.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0837.html


So this paragraph goes under the incorrect assumption that the gate is a object that can a person can be polymorphed into or that can be thrown or moved. All the spell find the path requests is a specific destination. You start off by saying that it would work for Kraagors tomb.. well guess what lets say that kraagors tomb is in a room at the end of one of these dungeons, so then you agree that it would work for Kraagors tomb.. but magically does not work for a room called the gate room? Why simply because you don't like it? They are both specific places, you already admit that it would work for the first, but not for the second.. is it because one is capitalized? No where in the spell description does it say that you need to be familiar with the destination, been there before, or have to have a mental picture like for teleport. If those were requirements for the spell then it would say so. If you used find the path to search for the bathroom that magically wont work? a 6th level cleric spell can't find a bathroom for you? Bathroom is not a specific destination? Now if you want to say that every dungeon has a gate room.. then yes it would not work as well because the spell would take you to every bathroom or gate room in turn. But it would still take you there! If it works to find you a bathroom then it can work to find you a gate room. Or we can say toilet room and gate room, just to make it even more clear.

[Phoniex]

Panel 3 Redcloak flat out says his god can't tell him because the dark one doesn't have the knowledge.

As for dominating another cleric of another god, that may be unproductive as the gods are deliberately hiding the info and may not even tell their own clerics, plus doing such an act would tip off the other gods that something was afoot. That would ruin the Plan.

Q

And I explained that if the domain agreement was in effect, such that a cleric of hel could stop a god from throwing lighting because its against the god rules they all agreed to. Then a cleric of the dark one should not have their spells stop working because that too would be against the god rules that all the gods agreed to. Besides at no point does it say that the reason divinations work is because a specific god has to know something, otherwise the spells would not work for clerics that do not have gods!

I also said that lets say you are right and the dark one does not want to let the other gods know, well good thing we have earth clerics (like the clerics of the stone ) or water or fire or air clerics that don't have specific deities to "alert" that could also be used so as not to ruin the plan. But if they really are gods.. and they do have the power to look at whatever they want because (god TM) then I would think the most powerful non-god being on the planet (Xycon) would be someone that the gods would want to keep an eye on? So at some point in the 40 years that the plan has been going on shouldn't 1 god have looked in on team evil and figured something is up.. I mean a Maxamized energy drain gets no god attention, team evil busting up all these gates gets no attention? I think team evil is on the radar.. to say the least. Since the godsmoot just happened in response to team evils acts. So the gods KNOW team evil is going for the last gate, they might not know the exact spell being caste on the gate.. but that's about all they don't know.

[PallentisLunam]

Whoo! New comic!

I'm sure someone has already made this joke but, Pick the carpenter's cup!

[Jasdoif]

First off you are wrong simply because you defy the logic that the gate is a PLACE, as soon as you prove that the gate can be moved like a object then you can treat it as such.No, actually, being able to be moved is not a requirement to be an object. Besides, I'm rather certain locations don't take damage in the normal sense, whereas a Gate does (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0898.html).


Second you still did not explain why Durkon was trying to use the spell in comic to do the exact same thing as team evil needs to be done now. If Durkon could use the spell to find Gerrads gate.. I mean what did he caste it for, to find a pyramid he knew nothing about? No he basically caste it to FIND the gate, IE the same thing team evil could be doing now. I mean Durkon was already in the windy canyon... the only thing he knew about in the comic was there was a gate so that's what he caste it on in the comic already as precedent for the spell. And the spell did not fizzle, its signal got blocked by more powerful magic.Since the comic didn't say what he was trying to find the path to, and since it didn't work regardless...I don't think either of us can definitively say what he was trying to locate. I certainly don't think it's fair to assume Durkon is never told anything that we didn't see on-panel, nor that Durkon can't try something that I haven't come up with myself.


So this paragraph goes under the incorrect assumption that the gate is a object that can a person can be polymorphed into or that can be thrown or moved. All the spell find the path requests is a specific destination. You start off by saying that it would work for Kraagors tomb.. well guess what lets say that kraagors tomb is in a room at the end of one of these dungeons, so then you agree that it would work for Kraagors tomb.. but magically does not work for a room called the gate room? Why simply because you don't like it? They are both specific places, you already admit that it would work for the first, but not for the second.. is it because one is capitalized?It's because Kraagor's Tomb (or Monster Hollow) is a defined geographical location, which is why it's capitalized (English proper noun and stuff). That it (theoretically, at least) contains a tomb for Kraagor has nothing to do with it except for the nomenclature.


No where in the spell description does it say that you need to be familiar with the destination, been there before, or have to have a mental picture like for teleport. If those were requirements for the spell then it would say so.It says "Find the path works with respect to locations, not objects or creatures at a locale." You can't use it to find an object (or creature) at a location.


If you used find the path to search for the bathroom that magically wont work?Bathrooms are well defined and well known (I hope) areas, so that would probably work.


a 6th level cleric spell can't find a bathroom for you?I wouldn't count on heroes' feast finding a bathroom for me, though I might expect the 3rd level for cleric spell locate object to find a toilet :smalltongue:

[Lerianis]

Oh Jeebuz..... that last image and that question asked..... hilarious in the extreme. DOZENS if not hundreds of doors, most likely leading to differing areas and differing places with differing challenges. Now I understand what "Physical might is the best!" was referring to.
She just loaded this place up with various monsters and said "Welp, just have to put a couple of dozen doors to differing places here with some traps and I'm done! Better still, if I even forget which door is the correct one!"

[Phoniex]

No, actually, being able to be moved is not a requirement to be an object. Besides, I'm rather certain locations don't take damage in the normal sense, whereas a Gate does (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0898.html).

Since the comic didn't say what he was trying to find the path to, and since it didn't work regardless...I don't think either of us can definitively say what he was trying to locate. I certainly don't think it's fair to assume Durkon is never told anything that we didn't see on-panel, nor that Durkon can't try something that I haven't come up with myself.

It's because Kraagor's Tomb (or Monster Hollow) is a defined geographical location, which is why it's capitalized (English proper noun and stuff). That it (theoretically, at least) contains a tomb for Kraagor has nothing to do with it except for the nomenclature.

It says "Find the path works with respect to locations, not objects or creatures at a locale." You can't use it to find an object (or creature) at a location.

Bathrooms are well defined and well known (I hope) areas, so that would probably work.

I wouldn't count on heroes' feast finding a bathroom for me, though I might expect the 3rd level for cleric spell locate object to find a toilet :smalltongue:

Locations take damage just fine.. the mountain that housed the elven and paladin rebels was destroyed by an earthquake. The walls of a castle have hit points and hardness ratings so that you can knock them down... then you can have 2 locations the fully built castle and the castle the dragon destroyed.. both are locations. Home is a location, my bedroom is a location, the girl I just started dating's bedroom is a location.. and just like the gate room find a path should be able to find a way there. LOL

So your argument that Durkon was not looking for the gate is that somewhere off panel durkon was shown a specific room, a picture of the pyradmid, or some other identifiable something that we don't know about and that's how he used find the path. And the fact that you see there is a no signal, just like you would when your divination is blocked by superior magic. And it was explicitly stated that superior magic was being used to block the spell in the comic. And yes it was said by Elan but both V and Durkon were there and neither said "no.. Elan is wrong we just need to try something different because magic is not blocking us". All those things are pointing at Durkon using find the path on the gate.. but you believe they are all wrong and something off panel is how he caste the spell? That's the best you got..? wow

Well Kraggors tomb (or where he is laid to rest) is a specific place, its where his body is. But you are right we can call the area around the apple tree in my back yard Kraggors tomb and then it would also magically be a place for "find the path" to find.. So both of them work and I'm right. So yes if Kraggors tomb is in a room at the back of one of these dungeons then the spell will find it.. now his body/ashes or whatever don't have to be there. But when these dungeons were being made and laid out on a map, and there were dragon rooms, and purple worm rooms, and bath rooms.. there should also have been a gate room.

You know the gate, the place Dorkdon built a castle around, the place the paladins built a city around, the place Gerrade built his pyramid around, and now the place Kraaggor built his dungeon around.

And gate rooms are defined and well known, you understood it, team evil understands it, the OOTS knows it, that's what the room would be labeled on a map of the dungeon. But somehow you will admit that bathrooms work, but not a gate room.

[factotum]

Well Kraggors tomb (or where he is laid to rest) is a specific place, its where his body is.

Not necessarily. A tomb can be a cenotaph, where no body is buried--this could be the case with Kraagor, who might have been pulled into the Snarl's dimension while fighting it.

[Doorhandle]

Not necessarily. A tomb can be a cenotaph, where no body is buried--this could be the case with Kraagor, who might have been pulled into the Snarl's dimension while fighting it.

Good point.

Anyone else want to run a game set in Kraagor's tomb now?

[Jasdoif]

The walls of a castle have hit points and hardness ratings so that you can knock them down... then you can have 2 locations the fully built castle and the castle the dragon destroyed.. both are locations.Both are the same location.

This seems to be where I keep losing track of where you're going, though: You appear to be defining "location" in terms of contents rather than positioning, which I don't see how it could apply since find the path says it doesn't work with respect to objects or creatures.


So your argument that Durkon was not looking for the gate is that somewhere off panel durkon was shown a specific room, a picture of the pyradmid, or some other identifiable something that we don't know about and that's how he used find the path. And the fact that you see there is a no signal, just like you would when your divination is blocked by superior magic. And it was explicitly stated that superior magic was being used to block the spell in the comic. And yes it was said by Elan but both V and Durkon were there and neither said "no.. Elan is wrong we just need to try something different because magic is not blocking us". All those things are pointing at Durkon using find the path on the gate.. but you believe they are all wrong and something off panel is how he caste the spell?No....I believe Durkon understands his spell well enough to try something that would work, that was blocked by whatever anti-divination was going on...but because the spell was blocked, he never found the path so we never found out where it led; so there's no way to know whether he tried the Gate itself, or something/somewhere else. And without knowing that, there's no way to know why it wouldn't for Redcloak here.


And gate rooms are defined and well known, you understood it, team evil understands it, the OOTS knows it, that's what the room would be labeled on a map of the dungeon. But somehow you will admit that bathrooms work, but not a gate room.They're defined in terms of the object in them, yes; and the spell still says it doesn't work with respect to objects.

And I will admit I should probably be harsher on bathroom hunters. But I have a hard time justifying shutting down a spell over something that could be casually be determined with similar mundane means, and dungeon janitors deserve a lot more respect than they get.

Ultimately I get what you originally said a page or so back: Team Evil's been at Kraagor's Tomb for about a week and Redcloak is the type to come up with and try the various shortcuts you pointed out; so why are they brute forcing it? I assume that's because none of the shortcuts worked, but why didn't they work?

I suspect the actual answer is that Kraagor's Tomb is set up that way narratively to delay Team Evil from getting started on the ritual so HPoH/OotS have the chance to stop them before they're done; so no shortcuts are allowed. And since shortcuts not working would be boring on-panel we're not shown it, and since we're not shown it there's not much chance of us finding out why it doesn't work unless OotS tries the same thing themselves (and maybe not even then).

But that's kinda boring from a reader's perspective, so I'm trying to figure it out.

It's possible the same big anti-divination thing Windy Canyon had is in effect here, but as you mentioned before that level of magic seems unusual for a rogue like Serini. And what I know of find the path doesn't mesh with what you suggested it for, so that's what I've been debating over.

...it just now occurred to me that I've been assuming the caster defines what constitutes a location and that targeting an object simply doesn't work, but the spell text doesn't actually specify that. What if (OotS-world's, at least) find the path works on external geographical definitions, and "Find the path works with respect to locations, not objects or creatures at a locale" means trying an object gets you that geographical area it's in? Like trying Girard's Gate would be like "Oh, you want this big patch of desert, let's give you a path!", and trying Serini's Gate would be like "Oh, you want this big patch of snow, let's give you a path!"

That'd make casting to find a Gate work to find the general area (explains Durkon), while still not narrowing the set of doors at Kraagor's Tomb enough for Team Evil to find it quickly (explains Redcloak)....But the problem with the dignity of custodians remains.

[Roland Itiative]

To the people saying there can be no misdirection because Serini wanted to follow Kraagor's ideals... unless he was really big on the power of luck making things easier, that can't be true. If we take the current set-up at face value, a lucky party could stumble on the correct door right away, and then 99% of those powerful monsters would be wasted.

So, I can think of three options:

1- It IS a luck-based mission, just as it seems.

2- There is something that requires a party to explore ALL doors in order to open the path to the Gate.

3- It's Haley's Shell Game all over again.

Option 1 doesn't seem to fit with the little we know of Serini and Kraagor (which is basically their race and class combination, so not much at all). It could be that either of them really praised luck, but we jusr haven't been informed of it.

Option 2 would sort of be equivalent to having one long string of rooms with all the encounters in it. The only difference would be that a large and powerful enough party could divide-and-conquer it in the way it's set. So, in a way, it would be a WORSE defence than a single door.

Option 3 wouldn't fit Kraagor's philosophy, but would seemingly fit Serini's. The dungeon might simply be a combination of both. The misdirection doesn't preclude the hidden correct path of ALSO having powerful monsters in there. I agree that the statue would be a bad place to hide the real path, though.

[JSSheridan]

Thanks Giant!

[Killer Angel]

I knew there would have been some nitpicking about "find the path"... :smallamused:

[DaggerPen]

With respect to the giant "find the path" argument -

1. The line between "object" and "location" is super fuzzy and is clearly there to give the DM wiggle room to do stuff like "no, you can't just say 'the room with the MacGuffin,' start rolling search checks." In this case, there is no DM, but there is a writer who gets to rule on this sort of stuff, and it's in his interests for it not to work here.
2. Likewise, because there is that wiggle room, I would fully expect Durkon, who knows the rules of his own spells (more or less) to give it the old cleric school try even if he expects it may not work.
3. Team Evil has canonically had to be clever to find the location of most of the other Gates, something well illustrated with Azure City, wherein Team Evil needed to use Miko to get something more than "in Azure City"
4. It is a little weird for an epic rogue to have access to that sort of magic. Unless, of course, she was part of a party with an epic wizard and druid who created a dual ritual to seal the rifts, and also an epic illusionist* with whom she kept in touch later. It's entirely possible that the spell used to seal the rifts has "block divination" built in from the start by merit of "let's keep the Holey Order away from this mess".

To paraphrase the Giant - you can very safely infer from the text that "find the path" doesn't work here and come up with an easy assumption as to why from the text, so why make an assumption that doesn't fit the comic?

*I know he was multiclass and did not have epic magic, but we've still seen him blocking divination magic, so my point stands.

[Yendor]

Wouldn't the simplest choice for Find the Path be, "the other end of this canyon"?

As for blocking divination, surely the party put up some basic defenses before they split up. And if Dorukan and Lirian cheated on their oath, why not Serini and Girard?

[Baywolfe]

To be fair, this applies to every dungeon in the history of RPGs.

Except for "one-offs" like TSR's Tomb of Horrors.

[hroþila]

I don't understand the arguments that Serini or any other member of the Order of the Scribble wouldn't have access to this or that skill that falls outside their character class's capabilities. They were stinking rich by the time they retired. Powerful magic for a particular feature is not more improbable than, say, expert masonry for the walls.

Apparently Dorukan was tightfisted but that doesn't mean the others were too.

[Jay R]

First off you are wrong simply because you defy the logic that the gate is a PLACE,...
etc.
etc.

You're spending a lot of time and effort on trying to find a way that Rich can use to destroy the story.

The author isn't going to destroy the story.

He's said more than once that if the D&D rules don't fit the story, then that rule or action works differently here.

The author isn't going to destroy the story.

He just isn't.

[Valynie]

So the evil party is winning XP just now ?

[Kish]

I'm not sure how this tangent started. If Phoniex is arguing that it's an obvious plothole that Redcloak cannot and did not quickly cast a spell to find the Gate, then yes, that argument is messed up. If Phoniex is arguing instead that a 17th-level cleric and high-epic sorcerer having to search manually proves some kind of anti-divination warding is here, then I agree. (For that matter, what Redcloak says strikes me as a non-fourth-wall-breaking way of saying, "Warded directly by multiple gods; the most powerful mortal spell will not lead anyone to a Gate.")

Edited to reply to above post: They're getting XP if anything they're fighting is high enough CR not to be "trivial" to a party that includes Xykon. The amount of XP they're getting, if they're getting any, is likely to be power-leveling Oona, slowly creeping Redcloak toward level 18, and barely registering with Xykon.

[Quibblicious]

And I explained that if the domain agreement was in effect, such that a cleric of hel could stop a god from throwing lighting because its against the god rules they all agreed to. Then a cleric of the dark one should not have their spells stop working because that too would be against the god rules that all the gods agreed to.

1. The Dark One is not operating under the domain agreement. He's outside the pantheons that have such agreements. He was a late comer to the scene and was rejected from the pantheons, unlike Hel, who agreed from the beginning to the terms of the domain agreement. The Dark One wants to use the gate to force a new agreement, one he is party to, and one that's better for his worshipers.


Besides at no point does it say that the reason divinations work is because a specific god has to know something, otherwise the spells would not work for clerics that do not have gods!

2. This is the Ootsverse, not D&D. If the High Priest says he can't do it, he can't do it. He stated the reason flat out at the top of #1039. You're arguing not with me, but with the ultimate authority, the text of the comic.


I also said that lets say you are right and the dark one does not want to let the other gods know, well good thing we have earth clerics (like the clerics of the stone ) or water or fire or air clerics that don't have specific deities to "alert" that could also be used so as not to ruin the plan. But if they really are gods.. and they do have the power to look at whatever they want because (god TM) then I would think the most powerful non-god being on the planet (Xycon) would be someone that the gods would want to keep an eye on? So at some point in the 40 years that the plan has been going on shouldn't 1 god have looked in on team evil and figured something is up.. I mean a Maxamized energy drain gets no god attention, team evil busting up all these gates gets no attention? I think team evil is on the radar.. to say the least. Since the godsmoot just happened in response to team evils acts. So the gods KNOW team evil is going for the last gate, they might not know the exact spell being caste on the gate.. but that's about all they don't know.

3. The gods themselves don't really watch affairs in the Prime Material that closely. Capturing a priest would tip of the clerics of the order of that priest, since they'd need to capture a fairly high level priest. Capturing said priest wouldn't exactly be easy.

4. As for non-god based clerics, the entire godhead of three pantheons determined that the information must be kept secret. So its unlikely the stone clerics could root it out, either.

5. The Godsmoot happened in response to 4 of the 5 gates being destroyed, *not* in response to anything Xykon and Redcloak did. The gods are worried about the snarl getting free more than about the plans of what they consider a nuisance godling like the Dark One.

[Quibblicious]

Anyone else want to run a game set in Kraagor's tomb now?


<heavy breathing>YESSSSSS!!!!<heavy breathing>

[Shining Wrath]

I'm not saying the Gate can't be behind a door, just that this dungeon involves more than fighting. A Rogue built it in honor of a fallen barbarian, it is reasonable to think there's going to be some roguish elements - and that the epic level rogue would be aware of things like Find the Path and Teleport and ensure that her memorial to her fallen friend couldn't be bypassed by magic.

I assert therefore that

Wherever the Gate is, a lot of fighting will be involved to reach it
But starting with the multiple doors, there are non-combat elements to defeat in this dungeon
The obvious and not-so-obvious magical methods of bypassing (1) and (2) will be protected against
The statue may have a role to play, such as being the final boss. Consider a Stone Golem with 17 Templates (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?280524-Tarrasque-17-Templates-3-5e). That may be overkill but Serini's goal was to have the toughest and most fierce monsters in existence to honor her friend so I'm not going to rule out a fully pimped golem or shield guardian (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/shieldGuardian.htm) formed from Kragor's statue, mainly because it would be hilarious for the final guardian of the Gate to closely resemble Rich Burlew :smallsmile:

[Keltest]

Wouldn't the simplest choice for Find the Path be, "the other end of this canyon"?

As for blocking divination, surely the party put up some basic defenses before they split up. And if Dorukan and Lirian cheated on their oath, why not Serini and Girard?

Only if the canyon had only one end.

[Jasdoif]

I don't understand the arguments that Serini or any other member of the Order of the Scribble wouldn't have access to this or that skill that falls outside their character class's capabilities. They were stinking rich by the time they retired. Powerful magic for a particular feature is not more improbable than, say, expert masonry for the walls.

Apparently Dorukan was tightfisted but that doesn't mean the others were too.I considered that, actually, but neither of the Order of the Scribblers who we know had the ability to block divinations did so via permanent means. Girard's Pyramid had a repeating schedule to keep it blanketed in spells (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0842.html). Dorukan's cloister could handle the whole thing, but it has a duration of weeks (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html).

Dorukan and Girard have both been dead since before the first comic, so it's unlikely either of them have been casting spells for Serini; and the only other epic caster I know is still around to be able to cast and craft high-level magical stuff is Xykon.

Now, it's entirely in the realm of feasibility that Serini (or an understudy) are UMD-ing spells from scrolls or staffs or similar created by some sufficiently high-level caster I'm not aware of, or that whatever spell was/is blocking divination over Windy Canyon doesn't appear on the list for Girard's family because it was permanent and didn't need to be renewed when Girard cast it for himself and possibly Serini, or that Serini came across some high-level treasure with a repeatable effect Girard or Dorukan didn't have access to....But the grain of salt I'd need to take that sort of unsupported convenience with is kind of large, so I think it's prudent to keep looking for explanations that could be more easily supported.

[DaggerPen]

I considered that, actually, but neither of the Order of the Scribblers who we know had the ability to block divinations did so via permanent means. Girard's Pyramid had a repeating schedule to keep it blanketed in spells (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0842.html). Dorukan's cloister could handle the whole thing, but it has a duration of weeks (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html).

Dorukan and Girard have both been dead since before the first comic, so it's unlikely either of them have been casting spells for Serini; and the only other epic caster I know is still around to be able to cast and craft high-level magical stuff is Xykon.

Now, it's entirely in the realm of feasibility that Serini (or an understudy) are UMD-ing spells from scrolls or staffs or similar created by some sufficiently high-level caster I'm not aware of, or that whatever spell was/is blocking divination over Windy Canyon doesn't appear on the list for Girard's family because it was permanent and didn't need to be renewed when Girard cast it for himself and possibly Serini, or that Serini came across some high-level treasure with a repeatable effect Girard or Dorukan didn't have access to....But the grain of salt I'd need to take that sort of unsupported convenience with is kind of large, so I think it's prudent to keep looking for explanations that could be more easily supported.

Maybe it's just encased in lead :smalltongue:

[KorvinStarmast]

A version of the spell that Xykon cast to suppress scrying and divination into Azure city.
Someone used an older edition "permanency" spell on such an abjuration. (Recall that a certain redhead's dad was a 1e thief. As I read the OoTS timeline, Haley's dad was a young thief around the time, or a bit after the time, that this gate was protected).
So, spell to block detection.
Permanency spell (1e).
A possible means by which use of magic to detect is frustrated.

[Jasdoif]

Maybe it's just encased in lead :smalltongue:That would thwart many other divinations quite handily, yes :smalltongue:

[hroþila]

Jasdoif, you raise good points, but you're forgetting something: Soon's gate was also guarded against divinations, and neither Dorukan nor of course Girard seem to have had anything to do with that. So there are ways, if Serini can find herself the right person to do it.

Maybe Dorukan preferred to use his Cloister spell regardless because it was more powerful than whatever Soon and (in this scenario) Serini did, not because he didn't have access to it.

[Peelee]

They're getting XP if anything they're fighting is high enough CR not to be "trivial" to a party that includes Xykon. The amount of XP they're getting, if they're getting any, is likely to be power-leveling Oona, slowly creeping Redcloak toward level 18, and barely registering with Xykon.

A question:

Since whats-his-name goblin killed the Silver Dragon and got levels, prompting Xykon to eliminate him, would that be confirmation that Oona and Redcloak would likely be getting XP? Or would said goblin not count as part of Xykon's party?

[Windscion]

Jasdoif, you raise good points, but you're forgetting something: Soon's gate was also guarded against divinations, and neither Dorukan nor of course Girard seem to have had anything to do with that. So there are ways, if Serini can find herself the right person to do it.

Well, Azure City had the budget for it I imagine. Also, "the throne room" was described as being warded ... because Team Evil did not yet know that it held the gate. But this made me think of something: maybe the gates themselves are immune to divination. After all, they are epic magic, and only partially of this world. (Plus, the Scribblers did not want them to be found.)

[Kish]

I think if they're fighting anything as strong as that dragon--CR 23--they're certainly getting XP, but if all those doors the bugbears have been farming are full of epic monsters, Oona and her tribe clearly deserve far more respect than the southern goblinoids have been giving them.

[Jasdoif]

Jasdoif, you raise good points, but you're forgetting something: Soon's gate was also guarded against divinations, and neither Dorukan nor of course Girard seem to have had anything to do with that. So there are ways, if Serini can find herself the right person to do it.

Maybe Dorukan preferred to use his Cloister spell regardless because it was more powerful than whatever Soon and (in this scenario) Serini did, not because he didn't have access to it.Hmm...The Sapphire Guard had a bunch of clerics though, they could have had a scheduled recasting thing like Girard had. Then again, Girard doesn't seem like he would "rely upon clerical aid" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0698.html). If Soon's Gate was warded by a cleric-only spell (or a magic item or architecture reliant on a cleric-only spell)...even if it were superior in duration, Girard wouldn't trust it and Dorukan would, like you suggested, trust his own spell instead. Neither of which applies to Serini.

So that could account for it.

[Kish]

So, I'm the only one who read "[t]he majority of other gods have colluded to hide the existence of the Gates even from [the Dark One's] divine senses, so my magic can't just point that way" to mean "the gods warded all the Gates against magical location, irrespective of whatever the Order of the Scribble did or did not do" rather than either a handwave to cover a plothole, or Redcloak babbling something meaningless?

Okay then.

[Peelee]

Eh, it's a good theory. I'll subscribe to it.

[Keltest]

So, I'm the only one who read "[t]he majority of other gods have colluded to hide the existence of the Gates even from [the Dark One's] divine senses, so my magic can't just point that way" to mean "the gods warded all the Gates against magical location, irrespective of whatever the Order of the Scribble did or did not do" rather than either a handwave to cover a plothole, or Redcloak babbling something meaningless?

Okay then.

I have a hard time buying that the gods would protect it so overtly like that, but only in that one specific manner. I feel like if nothing else there would also be some divine minions stationed at the rifts who wont die of old age/get bored and leave/go crazy and mess with the gate.

[Peelee]

I have a hard time buying that the gods would protect it so overtly like that, but only in that one specific manner. I feel like if nothing else there would also be some divine minions stationed at the rifts who wont die of old age/get bored and leave/go crazy and mess with the gate.

They have an information blackout on the rifts, not active security. No reason "information blackout" wouldn't include a "don't tell them about it even if they ask" attitude towards divinations spells.

Like I said, it's a good theory.

[Jasdoif]

So, I'm the only one who read "[t]he majority of other gods have colluded to hide the existence of the Gates even from [the Dark One's] divine senses, so my magic can't just point that way" to mean "the gods warded all the Gates against magical location, irrespective of whatever the Order of the Scribble did or did not do" rather than either a handwave to cover a plothole, or Redcloak babbling something meaningless?I read it to mean "the Dark One doesn't have the knowledge to simply give to Redcloak, so Team Evil has to investigate with their own abilities", and the timespan and number of marked doors implies they already tried the shortcuts they could come up with and none of them worked for whatever reasons. And working over those reasons seems more entertaining than a blanket "a wizard divine conspiracy did it", even if it ultimately doesn't impact the course of events and even if a divine conspiracy did in fact do it.

Does that count?


I have a hard time buying that the gods would protect it so overtly like that, but only in that one specific manner.Indeed. I figure if they were blocking divinations with respect to the locations, they would block all divinations with respect to the Gates and the rifts too; which raises questions about the "magical inquiry" Shojo mentioned (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html). If nothing else, Shojo (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0273.html) and Hel (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1000.html) both used the name "Snarl"; what are the odds that's a coincidence?

[Jay R]

So, I'm the only one who read "[t]he majority of other gods have colluded to hide the existence of the Gates even from [the Dark One's] divine senses, so my magic can't just point that way" to mean "the gods warded all the Gates against magical location, irrespective of whatever the Order of the Scribble did or did not do" rather than either a handwave to cover a plothole, or Redcloak babbling something meaningless?

Okay then.

Nope - I'm going with the handwave. I read it as "Rich is not going to allow the workings of D&D spells to destroy his story."

And it's not a plothole; it's a rules patch. There is nothing wrong with the plot except that D&D powers can prevent good plots from working.

Rich mentioned in Snips, Snails, and Dragon Tales that "the powers and abilities associated with D&D characters take most traditional storytelling idioms and shove them in a canvas sack and then beat them with hammers until they stop moving." If the D&D spell as written would mess up his story, then that D&D spell doesn't work that way in this universe. Somebody tried to tell Thor how D&D spells are supposed to work in this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0353.html), for all the good that did.

Rich is not going to mess up his story no matter how clever a way to do so readers come up with. He won't mess up the story, and he won't mess up the income stream by finding a way to end the story quickly.

[Keltest]

They have an information blackout on the rifts, not active security. No reason "information blackout" wouldn't include a "don't tell them about it even if they ask" attitude towards divinations spells.

Like I said, it's a good theory.

Ok, but divination spells work in ways beyond "ask the gods". For example, such a blackout would do exactly squat against arcane divination, which is why I'm skeptical that they are actively warding the gates against divination.

[Shining Wrath]

Something I've considered writing for 5e is a book entitled "Spells for Dungeon Masters". The Spell Compendium and PHB and other source material never claim to be an exhaustive list of all available spells, nor do the DMG and Magic Item Compendium claim to be an exhaustive list of magic items. For the most part, these books are designed with players in mind, not the DM.

In a world with wizards and dragons, a king is going to have his treasury protected by more than just locks, and his heir protected by more than just guards. We can assume that there are spells developed for kings and the like of the form

under no circumstances does anyone enter this room other than by walking through that door right there, period, even if they get 27 epic wizards to cast Wish at the same moment, and they must unlock the door using the key, and the key cannot be touched other than by people on this list
the person wearing this amulet can only be magically located by someone who knows the password, and it is utterly impossible to learn the password other than by having the wearer tell it to you"
no you can't charm, dominate, mind rape, detect thoughts, or otherwise muck with this person's mind and / or free will


They may be 9th level spells requiring hugely expensive material components, but if you're a king, you pay. The alternative is gleeful thieves teleporting into your treasury and mind-raped guards assassinating you every other day.

[Zea mays]

Oona's grammar is tricky.

https://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Oona_zpstooqci2y.png "Monster Hollow important to Bugbear clan. Hunt a little, tame a little. Wait, then monsters come back, start all over again.
Living here in icy ice where dwarves don't chase us because Monster Hollow is good to us."

Does that mean
- Life that far up north is good because monster hollow provides food, stylish accessories, and adorably pessimistic worg companions,
or
- Life that far up north is good because the dwarves don't chase them there because the dwarves fear to venture near Monster Hollow?


I also wonder if the dwarves were mentioned because they are about to be (or are in the process of being) invaded by a vampire army.

[Manty5]

Are there any monsters in the monster manual capable of being nigh undetectable via both magical and clerical effects?

If so, that would easily explain how much trouble everyone's having finding the exact location. The gate is within a monster or within a certain distance from a monster that grants nondetection.

Heck, if the monster's smaller than the statue and the effect doesn't require the monster to be alive, it could be inside the statue instead of the maze.

[Kantaki]

Oona's grammar is tricky.

https://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Oona_zpstooqci2y.png "Monster Hollow important to Bugbear clan. Hunt a little, tame a little. Wait, then monsters come back, start all over again.
Living here in icy ice where dwarves don't chase us because Monster Hollow is good to us."

Does that mean
- Life that far up north is good because monster hollow provides food, stylish accessories, and adorably pessimistic worg companions,
or
- Life that far up north is good because the dwarves don't chase them there because the dwarves fear to venture near Monster Hollow?

Yes.:smallamused:

[Windscion]

I figure if they were blocking divinations with respect to the locations, they would block all divinations with respect to the Gates and the rifts too; which raises questions about the "magical inquiry" Shojo mentioned (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html). If nothing else, Shojo (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0273.html) and Hel (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1000.html) both used the name "Snarl"; what are the odds that's a coincidence?

When the Scribblers were active, the gates did not yet exist, only the rifts. The gods might not have been aware of the rifts before mortals started encountering them, but I am guessing they were. However, they may not have done anything about them, since doing so would require a meeting where the high priests, at least, learned of their existence.

Also, magic inquiries need not involve divinations. Maybe they tried stuff liking tossing orbs of annihilation at the rifts to see what happened.

re: Hel's statement. Do we know for sure that the gods and/or their avatars use actual language? "Snarl" might have been what Roy heard, where others might have heard something different.

[JessmanCA]

It's possible that the gate could be in one of the doors they already checked as well, just behind a wall that they didn't break down or something.

[pendell]

Why shouldn't there be some misdirection, especially since we're protecting one of the cornerstones of the planet here?

There are plenty of repeating elements in all the dungeons we've seen. All the dungeons have A) monsters B) traps C) puzzles d) loot. Why not E) misdirection as well?

I suppose it's possible Serini put the gate behind one of those 100+ doors, but then she'd be risking an adventuring party getting lucky and guessing the right door on the first try. Or the tenth.

Why give a party a 1/121 chance of getting it right when she could give them a 0% chance of getting it right?

So my guess is that this dungeon combines fighter strength and roguish ingenuity, and that the real door is somewhere else -- or perhaps it IS in those doors, but you won't find it just by walking inside. Maybe there's a passcode that will allow you to reach the gate through any of the doors, or maybe you need to collect clues or something in each door before you can move on.

Regardless, I think that Rich will keep Team Evil stalled trying doors until the plot-critical moment when Redcloak finally figures out the One True Door -- which I bet will NOT be one of the 121 we see on this panel.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Peelee]

Why shouldn't there be some misdirection, especially since we're protecting one of the cornerstones of the planet here?

There are plenty of repeating elements in all the dungeons we've seen. All the dungeons have A) monsters B) traps C) puzzles d) loot. Why not E) misdirection as well?


Where were the traps and puzzles in the ABD's lair? Where was loot in Girard's pyramid?

Imean, we could also lob "monsters" in the Girard's pyramid one, since they were not part of the design and were brought in by an outsider after the Order entered.

[Ruck]

I thought the "majority of the Gods have colluded to hide the existence of the Gates from the Dark One" was a clear reference to events described in Start of Darkness:

Pages 40-42: Even though the elder gods accept the Dark One into godhood, they decline to share what they know about the Snarl. Until one day a goblin cleric discovers a rift and gets swallowed by it.

This brings it to the Dark One's attention, and he confronts his allies among the gods about it, who finally fill him in.

[Mx56]

Why give a party a 1/121 chance of getting it right when she could give them a 0% chance of getting it right?
Assuming each door represents a path with a whole bunch of high CR monsters along the way, you also need to account for the probability that any given party is high enough level to get to the end of whichever path they pick. P(party finds gate on first try)=P(party could ever get to the gate)/[Total no of doors]. It's the numerator that makes that a vanishingly small number - whatever's behind the doors, it's hefty enough that it's non-trivial for a party that includes Redcloak and Xykon, two exceptionally powerful characters by Oots world standards, so presumably most parties would get nowhere near the end of their first path even if they happened to pick the one with the gate first time.

[luagha]

Indeed, as mentioned above, the Gate could be inside a creature - the final boss monster.
If that Boss Monster has the ability to cast 'Mind Blank' then all this divination stuff can be put to rest.

Mind Blank is pretty much the be-all and end-all of stopping annoying divinations. and it's only 8th level and lasts 24 hours to boot.

[F.Harr]

No. No I do not feel lucky. I'd have started at the top left and taken each one in turn.

Pretty clever. That's going to take a long time. But it's not VERY clever. Very clever would have been having all the monsters attack Team Evil at once.

This bodes well for the narrative.

[Yendor]

I thought the "majority of the Gods have colluded to hide the existence of the Gates from the Dark One" was a clear reference to events described in Start of Darkness:

Pages 40-42: Even though the elder gods accept the Dark One into godhood, they decline to share what they know about the Snarl. Until one day a goblin cleric discovers a rift and gets swallowed by it.

This brings it to the Dark One's attention, and he confronts his allies among the gods about it, who finally fill him in.

But not enough, apparently, to let him know there's more than one.

[davidbofinger]

It looks like Serini has a con in the spirit of the three Xykons shell game. Perhaps she doesn't (Rich may not want to repeat himself) but it looks like she does so you'd at least expect Redcloak, author of the previous con, to be suspicious. Instead he seems acquiescent. So my question is: Assuming Redcloak suspects this is a con, is there any reason he might be letting Xykon waste his time?

I can't think of a good reason. The most promising line I do see is to ask what effect the revelation of Hel's plans might have on the Dark One's.

[Abjurer II]

Looks like all the doors they're tried so far have vertical slats.

[The_Weirdo]

Who wants a self-help book written by Greyview? :smallbiggrin:

[Bratmon]

I just realized: we all think that the main thing guarding the gate here is "the nastiest monsters in the world, to reflect [Kragor's] belief in the power of physical might."

But the source of that is what an epic level rouge told the paladin. We have no reason to believe it's true.