Building a Core-Only Cleric

[Corginin]

It has been a few years since I have played but I am getting into a game with a few friends. Our DM is new so he wants to keep things "simple" the only books allowed are the 3.5e Player's Handbook, Player's Handbook II, Dungeon Master's Guide, and Monster Manual. We will be starting out at level 1 building up from there and most likely will stick with these characters for a long time so I want to get it right the first time. I decided to roll a Cleric as it is one of the classes I never actually played around with before.

I am looking at building a melee based Cleric, I remember reading about a 'Reach Cleric' once before that used a longspear but I believe that was in Pathfinder. I would love to somehow make that work effectively with what resources I have though I am open to other suggestions. Leaning towards Human for that sweet sweet starting feat and skill points.

My questions for you wise person are as follows:

1. What should I be looking at building into and start out with to be an effective member of the party as I do not want to be a 'healbot'?

2. If there was a feat I really needed to try and negotiate from another book what would it be? Note that I already tried acquiring DMM: Persist, that got shot down quickly.

[AnimeTheCat]

So, I did a quick look over the SRD (which is mostly what you'll find in PHB I, classes from the DMG, and MM1 monsters) and PHB II and I'm sorry to say that there aren't any real gripping PrC's for a cleric (IMO) with the exception of Hierophant. That would look something like Cleric 13/Hierophant 5/Cleric 2. More specifically the other parts of the build I recommend to be like this:

Race: Human
Class: Cleric
Deity: Heironeous
Domains: War, Good.
Feats:
War Domain - Martial Weapon Proficiency (Longsword)
War Domain - Weapon Focus (Longsword)
Human - Scribe Scroll (This will come in to play later) (PHB I Pg 99/SRD)
1st - Shield Specialization (Heavy) (PHB II Pg 82)
3rd - Shield Ward (Grants you your Shield bonus to Touch AC as well as some other goodies) (PHB II Pg 82)
6th - Power Attack

Those Feats are a pretty good start for any melee centric build. Maximize your AC so you can stay in combat longer, and improve your damage output at a reduced chance to hit. The reason I don't start with power attack is because you don't have any BAB to use it with anyway. Secondly, after you hit Cleric 7 you'll be able to scribe scrolls of Divine Power (+6 Str/+1 HP/character level) that you can use or that the party rogue can use, or that any class with UMD can use. I think Paladin may get the spell at some point to so they wouldn't need UMD either. But that's a great buff spell. The only way to make it better is with metamagic, but since you have no way of buying off the spell level adjustment then your best bet is to just make lots of scrolls of it. I decided to have it as your human bonus feat because you can do the same with all the other great buff spells like magic weapon or shield of faith for level 1, the bear endurance style spells from 2nd level. That, I feel, is about the closest you're going to get to persisting spells.

Another route you can go is to pick a deity that you like the domain spells and granted abilities for and then pick up a long spear yourself and take the short haft feat (phb II, pg 82) to be able to use it in close range if necessary. I don't feel that there are any feats that a cleric NEEDS from any other book that aren't just changing the focus to cheese.

[Troacctid]

Cleric is a highly versatile class and can fill pretty much any role you like. So, what is it you want your character to do?


So, I did a quick look over the SRD (which is mostly what you'll find in PHB I, classes from the DMG, and MM1 monsters) and PHB II and I'm sorry to say that there aren't any real gripping PrC's for a cleric (IMO) with the exception of Hierophant.
Thaumaturgist is cleric-only and it's arguably the most powerful prestige class in the DMG. Loremaster is more for wizards, but it's still strong on a cleric. Hierophant isn't even good, except maybe as a dip at level 19 or 20 when the campaign's already over.

[AnimeTheCat]

Thaumaturgist is cleric-only and it's arguably the most powerful prestige class in the DMG. Loremaster is more for wizards, but it's still strong on a cleric. Hierophant isn't even good, except maybe as a dip at level 19 or 20 when the campaign's already over.

If you're wanting to be a front-line style cleric I would say it's abhorrent... d4 HD, and bonuses to summoning. You have to be able to cast a 4th level spell, you need a feat to get it that is mediocre for clerics and does nothing to assist your combat capabilities. OP said he liked the idea of the cleric reach build and said he wants to be melee oriented. Thaumaturgist is far from a melee oriented build. On top of that, now you're making yourself significantly more mad because to be able to use the first class ability of the class you need a decent Charisma, on top of everything else you want. It just doesn't work for being a melee build. Thaumaturgist may be one of the most powerful PrC's in DMG, but it's not good for a melee build, and Loremaster falls in to the same field as Thaumaturgist, d4 HD and lots of skill points have to go in to it just to gain entry. I'm not saying that either class is bad, but they're just not good on a character who wants to be melee focused. I recommended Hierophant because a 1 level dip can let you cast touch spells with a range of 30 ft, you won't lose HD, and if you proceed further its like getting a bonus feat every level. That sounds pretty good to me.

[Bucky]

"Summoning" is a pretty good answer to this question though.



1. What should I be looking at building into and start out with to be an effective member of the party as I do not want to be a 'healbot'?

[AnimeTheCat]

"Summoning" is a pretty good answer to this question though.

True, but so is debuffing (cause fear/scare, Doom, etc.) and buffing (magic weapon at low levels, faith shield, bless, prayer, etc.). Summoning is ok at early levels, and progressively gets worse until much higher levels, and if you want to focus on summoning you'll want augment summoning before 9th level, which is when you'll get it with Thaumaturgist. There are better core classes to play if you want to be a summoner.

[Willie the Duck]

AnimeTheCat did a very nice build, although do note that a weapon-and-shield build may or may not be a good choice, as you cannot use a heavy shield and cast spells (without dropping your weapon). A pure summoning build is another non-healbot build. A reach build isn't bad either, as you can cast spells with a two handed weapon, and the reach means you are somewhat protected. Pick human, and the feats you choose early on should include combat reflexes (especially if you have a dex bonus), possibly improved initiative, and either short-haft or quick-draw (neither of which need to be 1st level, as a spiked gauntlet is just fine until having to keep two weapons up with level-appropriate enchantment becomes an issue).

As to not being a healbot, not healing in the middle of a fight is the right choice. However, how is the party going to heal hp if you don't do it? The easiest way to deal with that, without it getting in the way of your other desires is to pick up Craft Wand at level 6, cough up the xp, make the rest of the party cough up the gp, and cust use level 1 wands of CLW to handle that part of the job.

[Efrate]

I'd try to get travel and/or luck domains if you want the best domains and powers in PhB, but war is fine, though I would take something other than good for your second domain. Protection has some use though its unimpressive but at least better than just +1CL on spells of a certain type.

You don't need short haft just wear gauntlets, which are included in most heavier armor. Short haft requires a swift to activate and causes you to lose the reach until you spend another swift to get it back.

Brew potion is great early, because everyone loves a potion of bull strength if they are in melee, and if you are using PHB2 you can retrain it when you don't need it later.

The divine feats from PHB2 have some usage, divine justice isn't absolutely horrible if you are in melee with a big bruiser and can be reasonably sure you are going to get hit. Plus gives you something to do with your turn undead past like level 3.

Outside of power attack there really is very liittle to damage help in nearly-core. You cannot effectively do a rolibar's build unless you don't mind waiting till very high level, and its a huge feat investment. Something like Flay or Trophy Collector might give you a few options but neither is that great.

[Corginin]

Thanks for all the insight everyone!



The divine feats from PHB2 have some usage, divine justice isn't absolutely horrible if you are in melee with a big bruiser and can be reasonably sure you are going to get hit. Plus gives you something to do with your turn undead past like level 3.

Outside of power attack there really is very liittle to damage help in nearly-core. You cannot effectively do a rolibar's build unless you don't mind waiting till very high level, and its a huge feat investment. Something like Flay or Trophy Collector might give you a few options but neither is that great.

Is there anything that I may be able to convince the DM to let me take that isn't grossly over-cheese?

[Eldariel]

Honestly, you could just burn a feat on Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Spiked Chain if you want to fight at reach. It works fine though it'd be hard to afford the stats for Combat Expertise and Improved Trip, which are a big part of why Spiked Chain is solid to start with. This would take most of your feats. Good feats with these sources:

Martial:
Power Attack
EWP: Spiked Chain (into Improved Trip; requires 13 Int - can also benefit greatly of Combat Reflexes, but that requires Dex to boot so only if you have extremely high stats)

If you don't use Spiked Chain, Longspear is fine. Reach weapons are the king in this game - getting extra attacks is just great and you can always 5' step back to attack adjacent targets (or take out your backup weapon). There are longer chains like Robilar's Gambit here but those tend to be a waste on a Cleric.

Magic
Extend Spell
Quicken Spell
Prerequisites for Thaumaturgist if that strikes your fancy (BAB doesn't matter, you get full from Divine Power anyways, which you'll want to be using)

Item Creation
Craft Wondrous Items
Craft Magic Arms & Armor

Mostly the two most useful ones. Wondrous Items are by far the most numerous and useful so you can generally make do with just that though. Since you want some armor and weapon enhancements (Animated Shield being an early purchase so that you can use Magic Vestment on two items), Magic Arms & Armor is a decent investment if you have the chance. The less fortunate (more mundane) party members would thank you as well.


Then you just self-buff and bringeth the smackdown. Greater Magic Weapon, Magic Vestment (Animated Shield later), and in-combat given the chance, Divine Power, Righteous Might, Quickened Divine Favor, Blades of Blood. Spells should see to your survivability and defenses as well. Domain powers help there too though, but mostly I'd focus on finding abilities you're missing in Domains (such as Trickery & Travel giving you stuff like Invisibility & Fly, later Polymorph & Time Stop). Planar Allies and all that good stuff.

[Pluto!]

I'm pro-Summoning. Melee Clerics are overhyped and mostly just worse than the other things you could use those feats, spell slots and in-combat actions for.
On the topic of Thaumaturge:

True, but so is debuffing (cause fear/scare, Doom, etc.) and buffing (magic weapon at low levels, faith shield, bless, prayer, etc.). Summoning is ok at early levels, and progressively gets worse until much higher levels, and if you want to focus on summoning you'll want augment summoning before 9th level, which is when you'll get it with Thaumaturgist. There are better core classes to play if you want to be a summoner.
PHB2 is in, so retraining for Quicken Spell or something at level 9 shouldn't be an issue.

And Re: Thaumaturge being MAD because it can use Diplomacy to do an extra broken thing, not at all. Not only is Diplomacy the single easiest skill to pump with or without a high Charisma, and not only is the option of using Diplomacy pure upside over the Cleric's status quo, but Charisma is already the third most important stat for a non-Melee Cleric due to Turning and Turning-based feats/abilities.

[Troacctid]

If you're wanting to be a front-line style cleric I would say it's abhorrent... d4 HD, and bonuses to summoning. You have to be able to cast a 4th level spell, you need a feat to get it that is mediocre for clerics and does nothing to assist your combat capabilities. OP said he liked the idea of the cleric reach build and said he wants to be melee oriented. Thaumaturgist is far from a melee oriented build. On top of that, now you're making yourself significantly more mad because to be able to use the first class ability of the class you need a decent Charisma, on top of everything else you want. It just doesn't work for being a melee build.

Who's going to have more HP: a Cleric 11; or a Cleric 7/Thaumaturgist 4 with a lantern archon floating over her shoulder spamming aid every round? (Hint: it's the second one.)

[AnimeTheCat]

Who's going to have more HP: a Cleric 11; or a Cleric 7/Thaumaturgist 4 with a lantern archon floating over her shoulder spamming aid every round? (Hint: it's the second one.)

Just because you're not a thaumaturgist doesn't mean you can't have that. Which has more HP, Cleric 11 with a lantern archon floating over her shoulder spamming Aid every round, or Cleric 7/Thaumaturgis 4 with the same? (Hint: its the first one.)

Snarkeyness aside, yes that is easier (and more affordable) to do with a thaumaturgist, but a Cleric 11 can still do it just the same. For 1 week of service a Lantern Archon will spam aid on you in combat for 7k gold as a Cleric 11 and 3.5k gold as a Thaumaturgist 4, I'm including the free extend spell that Thaumaturgist gets simply to isolate the cost value. Considering that its only 1/week, you can afford to take extend spell 1/week and that's just a good metamagic feat to have around.

I guess my ultimate point is that for a melee build character, even if you have some sort of buff, taking a hit to your HD like that isn't particularly desirable. That is my primary focus when I make suggestions. I'm not trying to be rude and I know it likely came across that way, and for that I am truly sorry. I read your posts all over this forum and I truly enjoy the insight that you provide to most (if not all) topics.

[mabriss lethe]

In core-only I'm fond of the four elemental domains for a wide range of minion-mancy. Usually fire and air: fire type creatures are pretty ubiquitous, so it's good for a ready supply of disposable fodder. Air creatures are harder to find but often have useful abilities.

[Eldariel]

I guess my ultimate point is that for a melee build character, even if you have some sort of buff, taking a hit to your HD like that isn't particularly desirable. That is my primary focus when I make suggestions. I'm not trying to be rude and I know it likely came across that way, and for that I am truly sorry. I read your posts all over this forum and I truly enjoy the insight that you provide to most (if not all) topics.

HD on those levels is really a rather small part of your HP. HD on level 1 is big, but once Con, Con bonuses and levels begin accumulating, the overwhelming majority of your HP will begin to be derived off Con (and temporary HP in the case of casters). Thus the lost HD, which amounts to an average of 2 less HP per level, doesn't probably blip your radar very much nor make the difference between living and dying a significant number of times with the size of the damage effects being thrown around by monsters and spells alike on these levels.

Even in the extreme case scenario, a Wizard vs. a Barbarian on level 20, Wizard has 4 + 2.5 * 19 + Con * 20 while the Barb has 12 + 6.5 * 19 + Con * 20. Barb will have 84 more HP which is of course noteworthy (and more Con in Rage) but ultimately, if they both have...say 24 Con (14 base, +6 item, +4 Tome) that's still going to amount for 140 HP. Their total HP is around 191 for the Wizard and 275 for the Barbarian, which leaves the Barbarian with 30% more; far cry from the first level where the Barbarian has 60% more. And this is over 20 levels with the largest difference in the game. The 10 HP from 5 Thaumaturgist-levels over 5 Cleric-levels would barely register.


In general, the best way to survive is not by having a lot of HP, high AC, high touch AC, high HD and high saves (though those don't hurt of course) but by having as many immunities as possible. Every save can be a natural 1, every attack can be an autohit on 20; thus being able to negate those cases where your luck fails are the key to reliable survivability over a thousand battles. Of course, this is best accomplished by enemies not being able to hit you - reach weapons plus movement disabling (complete with size increases like Righteous Might) are thus a good combination since enemies with less reach than you might just never be able to hit you in the first place if you can stop them. Of course, spell immunities and resistances and any kinds of immunities to various physical attacks help a lot as well - however, again, aside from domains, the Cleric-list falls short of the Wizard-list on those options, particularly as one intends to fight.

Cleric-list isn't as great at acquiring the physical immunities in Core as Wizard (indeed, you need Shapechange before you can get anywhere), but you can at least buff up with temporary HP, some less critical bodies (summons, planar allies, the like) and things of that nature. Spell immunity wise, there's Freedom of Movement, Heroes' Feast, Death Ward, Spell Resistance, etc. which makes for a rather broad base of defenses.

[Troacctid]

Just because you're not a thaumaturgist doesn't mean you can't have that. Which has more HP, Cleric 11 with a lantern archon floating over her shoulder spamming Aid every round, or Cleric 7/Thaumaturgis 4 with the same? (Hint: its the first one.)

Snarkeyness aside, yes that is easier (and more affordable) to do with a thaumaturgist, but a Cleric 11 can still do it just the same. For 1 week of service a Lantern Archon will spam aid on you in combat for 7k gold as a Cleric 11 and 3.5k gold as a Thaumaturgist 4, I'm including the free extend spell that Thaumaturgist gets simply to isolate the cost value. Considering that its only 1/week, you can afford to take extend spell 1/week and that's just a good metamagic feat to have around.

I guess my ultimate point is that for a melee build character, even if you have some sort of buff, taking a hit to your HD like that isn't particularly desirable. That is my primary focus when I make suggestions. I'm not trying to be rude and I know it likely came across that way, and for that I am truly sorry. I read your posts all over this forum and I truly enjoy the insight that you provide to most (if not all) topics.
Thaumaturgist gets it for free with Summon Monster, is the point. The standard cleric has to spend a full round casting the summon spell, while the Thaumaturgist has it as a free action.

I mean, sure, if Book of Exalted Deeds is allowed and you happen to be an outsider with the good subtype, you can get literally dozens of lantern archons as permanent servants for free with Call Faithful Servants, but this is a book-limited game, so that's off the table.

The thing is, HD size doesn't really matter very much at high levels. Going down to a d4 at level 1 would be a disaster, but at level 8, it's not really a big deal. And the upside of free action summon spells is easily worth losing a measly 8 HP and +1 BAB.

[AnimeTheCat]

Thaumaturgist gets it for free with Summon Monster, is the point. The standard cleric has to spend a full round casting the summon spell, while the Thaumaturgist has it as a free action.

I mean, sure, if Book of Exalted Deeds is allowed and you happen to be an outsider with the good subtype, you can get literally dozens of lantern archons as permanent servants for free with Call Faithful Servants, but this is a book-limited game, so that's off the table.

The thing is, HD size doesn't really matter very much at high levels. Going down to a d4 at level 1 would be a disaster, but at level 8, it's not really a big deal. And the upside of free action summon spells is easily worth losing a measly 8 HP and +1 BAB.

Thaumaturgists do not get free Planar Allies. They can perform a diplomacy check and if they improve the creature's attitude to Helpful then they only pay 50% the cost. Also, they don't get free action summons. Nothing in the class changes the casting time of Summon Monster from full round to Free Action. You may be looking at Contingent Conjuring, but you can only have one of those active at a time and you are still required to do the bargaining as soon as the creature appears or else it will just leave (in the case of Planar Ally) because the spell is not fully cast at the time of making it a contingent summon.

[Troacctid]

Thaumaturgists do not get free Planar Allies. They can perform a diplomacy check and if they improve the creature's attitude to Helpful then they only pay 50% the cost. Also, they don't get free action summons. Nothing in the class changes the casting time of Summon Monster from full round to Free Action. You may be looking at Contingent Conjuring, but you can only have one of those active at a time and you are still required to do the bargaining as soon as the creature appears or else it will just leave (in the case of Planar Ally) because the spell is not fully cast at the time of making it a contingent summon.

A contingent summon monster spell is cast in advance and triggered as a free action, so it requires no actions in combat. After combat ends, you can cast another one for the next combat. You don't have to bargain with a creature summoned by summon monster, that's silly, the spell would run out before you even finish agreeing to terms.

[AnimeTheCat]

A contingent summon monster spell is cast in advance and triggered as a free action, so it requires no actions in combat. After combat ends, you can cast another one for the next combat. You don't have to bargain with a creature summoned by summon monster, that's silly, the spell would run out before you even finish agreeing to terms.

That's why I specified with summon planar ally for that bit. Additionally, the class ability works the same as the Contingency spell, which means that at 20th level, you can only get free SMVI, which will get squished by monsters/enemies at that point, and with our 11th level example you can only use SMIII in this way. A celestial bear or hippogryph at level 11 is probably getting 1 shot by most any enemy. They don't have much in the way of immunities and only have 25 and 31 HP (respectively and with Augment Summoning). I know that most of the enemies I fight in my games look at hitting for 25 Damage pretty par for the course. I mean, both of those could potentially get mopped up by a 6th level sorcerer casting a fireball. That's a 5 character level difference. By the time you're able to get your "free summons" they're nearly worthless. Also, a good cleric can't summon any of the fiendish variants of the critters so your SMIII list is limited to Celestial Black Bear, Celestial Bison, Celestial Dire Badger, Celestial Hippogryph, and small elementals.

Look, I'm not saying that free summons are bad, but in perspective it really almost wasting spell slots on something that is going to be thrashed in round 1 of combat.

[Troacctid]

That's why I specified with summon planar ally for that bit. Additionally, the class ability works the same as the Contingency spell, which means that at 20th level, you can only get free SMVI, which will get squished by monsters/enemies at that point, and with our 11th level example you can only use SMIII in this way. A celestial bear or hippogryph at level 11 is probably getting 1 shot by most any enemy. They don't have much in the way of immunities and only have 25 and 31 HP (respectively and with Augment Summoning). I know that most of the enemies I fight in my games look at hitting for 25 Damage pretty par for the course. I mean, both of those could potentially get mopped up by a 6th level sorcerer casting a fireball. That's a 5 character level difference. By the time you're able to get your "free summons" they're nearly worthless. Also, a good cleric can't summon any of the fiendish variants of the critters so your SMIII list is limited to Celestial Black Bear, Celestial Bison, Celestial Dire Badger, Celestial Hippogryph, and small elementals.

Look, I'm not saying that free summons are bad, but in perspective it really almost wasting spell slots on something that is going to be thrashed in round 1 of combat.

Well you're not using planar ally as a contingent spell. And if the enemy attacks your lantern archon instead of you, that means it's soaking up a lot more than 8 damage, which is still a win for the Thaumaturgist.