How Do You Destroy Your Loot On Death?

[Death_Lord12]

More specifically, as a DM, if an NPC with a bunch of magic items dies, what is the best way to not let the PCs get those items? I have usually 10-12 Players in my group, so I try to give the NPC bosses a nice boost to make it more fair. However, some of these items are fine for a 1 vs 12 battle, but I would not trust them in the hands of my Players, mostly because of how unpredictable that can be.

So, what is the best way to (preferably) destroy, or if need be move out of the players grasp magic items upon the death of this NPC? Would Contingency be good in this situation? If so what should I pair with, something like Flame Strike, or should I have a bunch of slotless items like Ioun Stones cast Disintegrate on each individual item I want gone? Considering this is trying to do enough damage to the items to destroy them, I feel like these are a "pray for the best" solution. I looked at Mordenkainen's Disjunction to just take away the magic of the items, but I don't really want that to hit the equipment of the players too. So, what should I do?

If you want an example of one of the items to find how much damage is needed to destroy it, the NPC has Demon Armor.

Core and 3rd party methods are allowed, and cost isn't much of an issue. As a side note, if you can find a method that seems demon related (he likes demons) then that'd be great. When I think demons I think fire but considering that doesn't do much damage I'd like to know what you all think.

Thanks in advance.

[Zanos]

There are rituals in DMGII for creating magic items that only work for yourself.

[Ashtagon]

Bone grafts spring to mind.

I have an idea once for a dwarf BBEG who scribed his scrolls onto the walls of his lair. He also made use of rune circles and other forms of non-portable magic items.

Drow magic items in 2e required radiation from the underdark to avoid simply melting away after a few days.

[Flickerdart]

Must the NPC have items? Loading up on temporary boosts like oils, potions, and spells bought off casters is a great way to blow through NPC WBL without delivering a single piece of loot. The NPC can have incarnum "weapons" and "armor" that disappear as soon as he dies, or he could have conjured the items with call weaponry.

Shapechange into a balor will give you its Death Throes special attack, automatically destroying any weapon you are wielding.

Items such as weapons of Legacy and Legendary items will not function properly for anyone without the necessary rituals or class levels. Intelligent items can refuse to work for a new owner. There are cursed items that will not function unless certain conditions are met, which can be "wielded by such and such race" or "perform such and such evil deed" that the PCs won't do. If magic weapons are augmented with a Fiend of Possession enslaved by the wielder, his death frees the fiend and the item loses the augmentation.

[Traitoreous]

I haven't yet used this myself, but have a wizard cast contingency to cast area dispel magic on himself when he dies. Fill his pockets with books filled with explosive runes, shrunk maybe? A custom bestow curse will make sure that the dispel check fails. Also necklace of fireballs doubles the fun.

[Troacctid]

Cursed items (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/cursedItems.htm), particularly those with special requirements, are a good way to disincentivize the PCs from taking an NPC's stuff. The party paladin is not going to take the bad guy's magic sword if it has to be bathed in the blood of the innocent every night in order for it to function.

[Death_Lord12]

There are rituals in DMGII for creating magic items that only work for yourself.
What page is this on?

Bone grafts spring to mind.

I have an idea once for a dwarf BBEG who scribed his scrolls onto the walls of his lair. He also made use of rune circles and other forms of non-portable magic items.
Where can I find these bone grafts? And while that is a clever method to use walls as scrolls, the character is a tyrannical duke who is trying to hide his affiliations with demons.

Must the NPC have items? Loading up on temporary boosts like oils, potions, and spells bought off casters is a great way to blow through NPC WBL without delivering a single piece of loot. The NPC can have incarnum "weapons" and "armor" that disappear as soon as he dies, or he could have conjured the items with call weaponry.

Shapechange into a balor will give you its Death Throes special attack, automatically destroying any weapon you are wielding.

Items such as weapons of Legacy and Legendary items will not function properly for anyone without the necessary rituals or class levels. Intelligent items can refuse to work for a new owner. There are cursed items that will not function unless certain conditions are met, which can be "wielded by such and such race" or "perform such and such evil deed" that the PCs won't do. If magic weapons are augmented with a Fiend of Possession enslaved by the wielder, his death frees the fiend and the item loses the augmentation.
I prefer using magic items to things like potions just because they seem easier, and his weapon is actually the only thing I am not concerned about because, 1. it is technically indestructible, but 2. if any one but him picks it up they become encumbered, and have to make a Fortitude save DC 46 every round or be nauseated/sickened, and after every minute of that they gain a negative level. So the weapon is of no concern to me but the rest of his gear is. For intelligent items, I'm pretty sure intelligent items basically hate each other, and even if they didn't they are supposed to be about 1% of magic items, and I try to reserve intelligent items for those really special plot related ones. As for cursed items, I already have planned to have an entire cave filled with them and don't want the players thinking I'm obsessed with cursed items (though they are fun).


I haven't yet used this myself, but have a wizard cast contingency to cast area dispel magic on himself when he dies. Fill his pockets with books filled with explosive runes, shrunk maybe? A custom bestow curse will make sure that the dispel check fails. Also necklace of fireballs doubles the fun.
This looks like it could be a fun way to do it if nothing else works. Still open to suggestions though.

[Honest Tiefling]

Cursed items (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/cursedItems.htm), particularly those with special requirements, are a good way to disincentivize the PCs from taking an NPC's stuff. The party paladin is not going to take the bad guy's magic sword if it has to be bathed in the blood of the innocent every night in order for it to function.

Eh. That's what Blackguard is for. I would make the curses not against their character (doubt not the greed of the players, for it is vast and mighty), but something annoying or impossible. Having to use that weapon and only that weapon and having it leak acidic blood? Okay, maybe. Bowing to the will of a Demon Prince and being at their beck and call? Yeah, not going to happen.

[mabriss lethe]

A trick I've used to good effect is to add the items to the character normally, then simply handwave an appropriate percentage of their magical equipment as innate supernatural abilities for loot purposes. I even tell my players straight out, what I'm doing and why. Something to the effect of this:

Me: " Here's how this works. In order to challenge you I'm going to give these opponents certain abilities that mimic magic items. You'll still get treasure appropriate to the encounter, but those pseudo-items won't be included in the loot. If it helps, think of it as a sort of collateral damage already figured in. Not every magic item these guys carry will survive a pitched battle."

[Gildedragon]

There is an ice, as well as a subterranean metal that evaporate outside of their preferred environment. Make the armor out of that and it will go poof.
Alternatively: intelligent items, or symbiotic/parasitic items. Either might repulsed the PCs or reject their commanss

[Cosi]

Magic equipment that evaporates when the enemy dies is stupid. It's WoW logic that has no place in D&D. If you want the PCs to not use enemy equipment, enforce a cap on total magic items. If you can only have eight magic items, enemies can drop as many magic items as they need to (probably eight) and the PCs only care if those items are better than theirs. You still have problems with people selling magic items, but as far as wealth schemes go "kill a bunch of monsters and sell their stuff" seems a lot better than "cast fabricate a thousand times". If you really care, use scaling items to stop them from getting bigger bonuses than you want them to have.

Figuring out how to make treasure not really treasure is going to go over a lot worse than just changing people's incentives.

[Kyberwulf]

You as a DM have a right to take away the players toys, if they ask why. Just tell em a god did it.

If they whine. Make it so a thief comes in the night and takes something. If they ask how no on noticed. Tell em you made their rolls for them while they slept.. and they all failed. Even if a guy was on watch.

[Gildedragon]

You could use legacy gear. Rituals need to be done to get the item to unlock its power

[Zanos]

What page is this on?
Sorry, 231, Bonded Magic Items section.

[Barbarian Horde]

Looking into item creation as well, I know you can limit the use of items to a particular race & class if you so wished it as well. So like an amulet of strength could only be usable by a orc barbarian, something along those lines.

[Kelb_Panthera]

My advice: don't. There's almost no way to do this and maintain verisimilitude. Let them have the toys and then break out the rust monsters, skilled thieves, disenchanters, and sunder-monkies. They'll either start burning significant resources on protecting themselves from such or they'll be losing gear at a rate to compensate for the excess. Either way, the problem will be resolved.

If you're worried about specific, overpowered items; don't give them that stuff in the first place or use expendable versions of them that will be discharged and seriously weakened or expended after a few uses.

To the comment of permanent items being easier than potions; yes, they are. However, you sometimes have to engage willing suspension of disbelief and let the game's verisimilitude or realism take a small hit for the sake of playability. Which would you rather have; a game that's perfectly consistent that players cannot find logical fault with or one that's actually fun to play?*



*It is theoretically possible to play in a game that is both but D&D 3.X and pathfinder ain't it.

[Arbane]

You as a DM have a right to take away the players toys, if they ask why. Just tell em a god did it.

If they whine. Make it so a thief comes in the night and takes something. If they ask how no on noticed. Tell em you made their rolls for them while they slept.. and they all failed. Even if a guy was on watch.

Fixed your font for ya.

(This is a great way to end up ion the 'silliest railroad' thread.)

[MisterKaws]

Can't you just fluff the items as custom grafts on subcutaneous levels(since he doesn't want to be exposed)?

You're already going over NPC WBL, so having the modifier for odd slots won't do such a difference.

[Kyberwulf]

Nah, I said what I meant. I just think this is all going to boil down to... "PC's Are special snowflakes".

He as a DM can take away anything he feels he needs too. The rules for all the items in the PHB and DMG, are pretty much the rules meant for players. You as a DM can do anything you want. If you want all the items on buy guys to have contingency on them, them by all means. If you want them all to blow up when the wearer's hp go to -10, then by all means. Make the Dungeon they are in fall to pieces while they are in there if they dillydally. Curse all the items.

Players can and will do the whole SKYRIM thing if you let them get away with it. You know, pack themselves down with everything in a dungeon just to make a CP.

[Zanos]

Nah, I said what I meant. I just think this is all going to boil down to... "PC's Are special snowflakes".

He as a DM can take away anything he feels he needs too. The rules for all the items in the PHB and DMG, are pretty much the rules meant for players. You as a DM can do anything you want. If you want all the items on buy guys to have contingency on them, them by all means. If you want them all to blow up when the wearer's hp go to -10, then by all means. Make the Dungeon they are in fall to pieces while they are in there if they dillydally. Curse all the items.

Players can and will do the whole SKYRIM thing if you let them get away with it. You know, pack themselves down with everything in a dungeon just to make a CP.
Doing whatever you want if an excellent way to not have anyone to DM for.

[LTwerewolf]

Yeah that's pretty much one of the things that lands you in the "we hated this dm because they were terrible threads.

[Âmesang]

There's also the 5th-level death throws spell from Spell Compendium, page 60—castable by clerics, sorcerers, and wizards. Not as big of an area-of-effect as the balor's version, but does a healthy amount of damage with no saving throw or spell resistance and lasts a good, long while before it's activated.

[Kyberwulf]

Well, doing whatever you want. Is a Good way to make you have to find another Dm

[Bohandas]

Drow magic items in 2e required radiation from the underdark to avoid simply melting away after a few days.

Similarly many Netherese devices require an external power source


You could use legacy gear. Rituals need to be done to get the item to unlock its power

Similarly, Relics require either a feat or a class ability to use and require you to worship a particular deity

[LTwerewolf]

Well, doing whatever you want. Is a Good way to make you have to find another Dm

No gaming is better than bad gaming.

On topic: if you don't want your players to have it, don't put it in the game. There are plenty of ways to make enemies more powerful without items.

[torrasque666]

No gaming is better than bad gaming.

On topic: if you don't want your players to have it, don't put it in the game. There are plenty of ways to make enemies more powerful without items.
The easiest of which is "They're more powerful because reasons"

[LTwerewolf]

The easiest of which is "They're more powerful because reasons"

Pretty much. You don't have to explain why the BBEG has 3 more levels in blackguard than he otherwise would have. They don't know what he would have. You're not answerable to the party on how you build the enemies so long as it's challenging and more importantly fun. You are answerable to them once you give them things however. I also give my enemies full hit points from their hit dice, not average. They still tend to go down quickly, but not instantly.

[Quertus]

Firstly, don't.

Secondly, why would you? "I would not trust them in the hands of my Players, mostly because of how unpredictable that can be"?

Why would the npc?

I can't remember the last time I found a 1-on-12 type fight truly epic and memorable, unless the one was a PC, holding out against seemingly overwhelming odds. Boost the npc by having several fiends of possession pour out of his equipment to even the odds a little. If he's somehow still worried about appearances at this point, have said fiends be using illusions / hat of disguise / whatever to appear as his bodyguards / a pack of wolves / whatever.

Kudos on running such a large group, btw. I had feared the days of the double-digit playgroup died with the birth of 3e.

What level is the party?

[ExLibrisMortis]

Give the BBEG a contingent plane shift to the Abyss, keyed to his death, that is regrettably too late to save him, as he failed to specify it had to go off before rather than after the final hit?

[Psyren]

You have lots of options. Here's a few:

1) Use consumables instead of permanent items.
2) Have the bad guy escape/be retrieved (along with his gear) instead of being killed.
3) Have it use cursed items where the drawback isn't meaningful for the NPC but will harm the PCs (e.g. a drow priestess wearing ceremonial gear that does nasty stuff if worn by a non-worshiper of Lolth.) Removing the curse, even if successful, depowers the item entirely.
4) Make the gear irretrievable: there are several (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DefeatEqualsExplosion) ways. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LoadBearingBoss)
5) Let the party keep the gear, then gradually bring them back into line with WBL by increasing the number of low-wealth encounters they face over the next few sessions.

[meemaas]

As a suggestion that hasn't yet been noted. Write a custom variant of Vow of Poverty for the guy. Do away with the restrictions maybe, and have that be the source of the items powers. As a bonus, keep the items on him as nonmagical ones and say that he didn't realize the power came from him the entire time.

[hifidelity2]

I have used a mixture of all of those and not had the PCs complain (to much)

Another one is charges – the sword / armour used charges (like a wand) to operate and they PCs don’t know how to re-charge it – so for example it might be a set of armour that is +5, with speed but each time it uses its speed or stops a blow it uses 1 charge – and guess what – there are only 2 charges left in the suit

[Bohandas]

Cursed items (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/cursedItems.htm), particularly those with special requirements, are a good way to disincentivize the PCs from taking an NPC's stuff. The party paladin is not going to take the bad guy's magic sword if it has to be bathed in the blood of the innocent every night in order for it to function.

Now I'm imaginingsome kind of gentle repose based vessel that stores a small quantity of blood reusably

[Âmesang]

Give the BBEG a contingent plane shift to the Abyss, keyed to his death, that is regrettably too late to save him, as he failed to specify it had to go off before rather than after the final hit?
The Smoking Eye template from The Shackled City Adventure Path has an ability like that, although there's a delay of one round per character level before being shifted away (which can be delayed with dimensional anchor and similar spells).

[Elder_Basilisk]

I'm not a huge fan of consumables rather than actual items since it gets really old if the NPCs always know you're coming with time to drink all fifteen of their 3 minute potions.

Instead of doing that all the time, here are a few other options:

1. Permanent spells. A magic item that gives see invisibility? Or cast permanency on see invisibility? A lot of people might opt for the permanency spell and it can't be looted when you die. (Though reaving dispel can loot it while you're alive).
See Invisibility, Greater Magic Fang, and Enlarge Person are explicitly permitted but the DM is expected to rule on other spells. Superior Resistance seems like one that would logically be available and which would be a good loot replacement.

2. Long duration buffs from a allied spellcaster (who may or may not be part of the encounter). The simple way to do this is to say "the cleric cast greater magic weapon on the bad guys' swords" but if the NPCs are part of an organization or have a BBEG boss, there's no reason that Sir not appearing in this encounter could not have provided the greater magic weapon, magic vestment, hero's feast, extended mass convictions, etc. Even without a support network, things like Stalwart Pact, Zealot Pact, and Renewal Pact are things that could logically be purchased by enemies, add to their effectiveness like magic items, and are not lootable (again, without reaving dispel).

3. Locational effects. Even a long-expired unhallow imparts a magic circle vs good effect to people inside it. +2 deflection and resistance vs effects from good creatures will substitute for some magic items. If the location is an active temple, then things like righteous wrath of the faithful or fires of purity might be options. Obviously every encounter won't be in an evil temple, but some will be.

4. Magical location effects. Most of these are not going to substitute for items but there may be a few that do. If the NPC has absorbed the power of the elemental fire node gate and can empower one [fire] spell per day for free, maybe you don't need to give him the metamagic rod of Empower Spell.

5. Relics. Since they only work if you worship the appropriate deity and have the true believer feat or sacrifice a cleric spell slot, they are less valuable to PCs. For example, the skewer of gnomes is more effective for a kobold Pious Templar than it would be for a PC or than its gold price would indicate. (Especially if the PCs are gnomes).

6. Class abilities. If you use Pathfinder classes, there are a number of them that have on the fly weapon enhancement abilities. A magus or inquisitor or warpriest can add enhancements (including bane if the magus took the right abilities) as a swift action.

7. Consumables on lower level allies. How much does a second level bard contribute to a fight with six 5th level orc barbarians? Not nearly as much as a second level bard with a scroll of haste. PCs can't loot consumables the NPCs use and if the primary contribution of some combatants is going to be by using their consumables, that's loot the PCs can't take. One advantage that NPCs have is that you can always add more of them so they don't suffer the same action economy issues that PCs do.

8. Monsters with class levels. A minotaur fighter 1 is often going to be more effective than a human fighter 4. And the minotaur does not have the same gear built into his CR. (He has the NPC gear of a 1st level fighter, not a 4th). You don't want to do this every time, but mixing in some monstrous races will enable you to skim a little more loot out of your encounters from time to time.

Combine all the various loot limitation tactics in various combinations throughout your encounters and you should be able to keep loot to a reasonable level without ignoring classed NPCs as an encounter option.

[Necromancy]

I ran a mostly humanoid intrigue campaign where all NPCs had their proper WBL and actually geared up like a PC would. By session 3 we were keeping track of loot with spreadsheets. It was a fun game though as they raised the most well geared army ever.

I liked the tougher NPCs so I tried another game with simple revamped magic item rules. All simple bonus items (+1-+5 whatevers) are attuned. They're cheaply made and can't be reattuned to others. Instead, once their attuned owner dies they become weakened and can be easily broken down into residuum at 1/10 the value.

This allows for widespread magical boost in a high magic game without destroying player economy, and still allows the odd real magic item in the mix

[frost890]

Since sooner or later your group will feel wronged make it part of the story. A contingency spell to save the big bad or his gear. (Even bad guys can be cheapscates) That way the cult of woobidy woo can reuse his gear. The lich could keep all his old minions in a magic museum. "You see how his head is falling from his shoulders... Do not fail me as well..." This works to show the progress they made and gives you a chance to recount some of the things they did up to that point.

But you may want to think about several weaker enemies so that they get more of a feeling of doing something.

[Gurifu]

Destroy? No. Magic items are precious and death is temporary. Very few characters would be motivated to destroy their own items on death.

On the other hand, Class/race/alignment restrictions, passwords, and salvage by minions/bosses/allies (few fights have to be fought to the last man) are all things that make sense and are often done by players. Bypassing such restrictions is part of UMD, or can be a downtime objective or a sidequest.

[Braininthejar2]

Collapsing lair. They have 15 seconds to decide what to grab and then they need to start running.

[Death_Lord12]

Alright to clear up a few things here's some more background on this guy:

First off he's possessed by a demon that doesn't care if the person dies or if the items are destroyed, and it's plot related that he dies and stays dead (so no teleporting out with the items, at least not while alive). Second he's a duke ruler of the capitol city of a small island continent (really it's the only city, the rest is all towns and stuff), so basically he has wealth and connections, but the fight will be in his throne room and it's vital that the castle not get destroyed so that someone can take over and anarchy does not occur.

As I said earlier, I don't really want to use cursed items because I already plan on using a bunch earlier in the campaign, also you might be surprised by how much a character might want an item, no matter the curse. Though...

Bowing to the will of a Demon Prince and being at their beck and call?
That could certainly be interesting, and fits the theme.

To the suggestions saying use an item that only works in specific areas, as I said above, this is in the capitol city castle, so not really much special about that place (except the Gate it has in the dungeon leading to more demons but that's beside the point). And also my Players are crazy, and would probably take the items and use them to take over the castle or something.


Can't you just fluff the items as custom grafts on subcutaneous levels(since he doesn't want to be exposed)?

Permanent spells. A magic item that gives see invisibility? Or cast permanency on see invisibility?
These are certainly some nice options.


There's also the 5th-level death throws spell from Spell Compendium, page 60—castable by clerics, sorcerers, and wizards. Not as big of an area-of-effect as the balor's version, but does a healthy amount of damage with no saving throw or spell resistance and lasts a good, long while before it's activated.
Unfortunately about this one, the main problem is I don't want to kill the players and that no saving throw part might just do that, seriously harm them yeah why not, but kill? Well maybe if they do something stupid like slap him with a fish to try and kill him, that's asking for it. But this guy is seriously a tank, like his AC is 41 I think, so the players will certainly be weakened when they kill him.


I haven't yet used this myself, but have a wizard cast contingency to cast area dispel magic on himself when he dies. Fill his pockets with books filled with explosive runes, shrunk maybe? A custom bestow curse will make sure that the dispel check fails. Also necklace of fireballs doubles the fun.
This seems like one of my more favorite choices so far, only question is, aren't explosive runes Force damage? So how would the necklace of fireballs be triggered, unless I just make the Contingency trigger all of the runes and the fireball (can you do that?).


What level is the party?
Currently, 9 (LA not included), but this is a more end-game boss fight so they will be much higher, the boss himself is level 20.


As a suggestion that hasn't yet been noted. Write a custom variant of Vow of Poverty for the guy. Do away with the restrictions maybe, and have that be the source of the items powers. As a bonus, keep the items on him as nonmagical ones and say that he didn't realize the power came from him the entire time.
He actually gets most of his powers from his weapon due to his class.


4. Magical location effects. Most of these are not going to substitute for items but there may be a few that do. If the NPC has absorbed the power of the elemental fire node gate and can empower one [fire] spell per day for free, maybe you don't need to give him the metamagic rod of Empower Spell.
This is actually a good idea, especially because of the demonic gate I mentioned above.

Also, to the people saying "This is a great way to end up in blah-blah-blah our DM sucks thread." I'd appreciate more straight forward answers instead of comments like that, don't assume you know what I am going to do because you don't, this is only one part of a much larger plan. There is more to rewards than just looting a corpse.


Thanks for all the suggestions so far, keep them coming.

[LTwerewolf]

Collapsing lair. They have 15 seconds to decide what to grab and then they need to start running.

Dump the corpse in a bag of holding and you end up with the same problem.

[The Vagabond]

Alternatively, if you are willing to backport some pathfinder stuff, and your Wizard doesn't have Transfer Tattoos (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/t/transfer-tattoo) in his spellbook (or a way to cast the spell), magic tattoos (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/item-creation-feats/inscribe-magical-tattoo-item-creation) are a WONDERFUL way to provide boss items to the boss to boost his CR, while also not boosting the PCs WBL, while also maintaining verisimilitude.

Note, however, that you're going to have to boost the NPCs WBL to PC level; Magic tattoos cost twice as much as their corresponding item. Perhaps you could include lava in the area to immolate his skin so the tattoos are destroyed with his corpse.

[Bohandas]

Alternatively, if you are willing to backport some pathfinder stuff, and your Wizard doesn't have Transfer Tattoos (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/t/transfer-tattoo) in his spellbook (or a way to cast the spell), magic tattoos (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/item-creation-feats/inscribe-magical-tattoo-item-creation) are a WONDERFUL way to provide boss items to the boss to boost his CR, while also not boosting the PCs WBL, while also maintaining verisimilitude.

What if they skin him?

[Norin]

Easy, just make the encounters into Balors (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm). They have this neat ability to explode and destroy their weapons upon death.

Death Throes (Ex)

When killed, a balor explodes in a blinding flash of light that deals 100 points of damage to anything within 100 feet (Reflex DC 30 half). This explosion automatically destroys any weapons the balor is holding. The save DC is Constitution-based.

...no i'm not serious about using Balors. I just figured that the ability was fitting, if a bit too powerful. :smallbiggrin:

[Jormengand]

If the character can use major creation and greater magic weapon/vestment, he can have powerful magic weapons and armour that go away after a while.

[Gildedragon]

Another option might be to break the party down into more manageable sizes. Either by having multiple gaming groups or multiple encounters. The big bad isn't just one person but a small cabal, or a mindlinked trio; or the like. That and mobs. Lots of small minions with piddly rewards. But lots of small minions can be very very deadly

[Elkad]

I just cheat on stats.

Why yes, the evil overlord did actually roll straight 18s and max hp on 15d12. How do you think he rose above all the other evil newbies in evil camp? The odds aren't that astronomical, just 1 in 1,564,736,443,504,341,985,078,529,753,088.

Work it backwards. Give him his final stats. Give him appropriate-to-the-party treasure. Figure out his sheet, including the treasure, and then just stick inherent or untyped bonuses wherever the sheet comes up short.

[icefractal]

Self-destructing equipment sounds a bit counterproductive, but self-retrieving equipment can be quite useful. Let's say you're sending disposable minions out to do your dirty work, but want to equip them. Or even for yourself - backup measures like Clone make death less of an issue, but losing all your stuff still sucks.

1) Custom craft all your items in slotless form. Specifically, small pomegranate-seed shaped gems.
2) Make sure one of those items is a Ring of Sustenance.
3) Craft a custom item: it's a metal pomegranate with slots for those gems. It has one ability - if you die, it will teleport (or plane shift) itself to a designated location.
4) Stick the seeds in the "pomegranate".
5) Swallow it (Enlarge Person may help).

In addition to saving your items in the event of your demise, it has the advantage that your items can't be stolen/sundered/disjoined/anything, because nobody has line of effect to them (and if "line of effect to inside someone's body" is allowed, have fun killing people with cantrips). Even anti-teleport or anti-magic fields won't stop the teleport, for the same reason.

Main downside - most of your items cost double.

[Bucky]

Dump the corpse in a bag of holding and you end up with the same problem.

Which is why all my bosses now carry portable holes.

[Psyren]

Which is why all my bosses now carry portable holes.

Folded and stuffed in their bum, where the PCs don't see until it's too late :smallbiggrin:

[Bohandas]

Soulknife or meldshaper characters

[Bohandas]

Easy, just make the encounters into Balors (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm). They have this neat ability to explode and destroy their weapons upon death.

Death Throes (Ex)

When killed, a balor explodes in a blinding flash of light that deals 100 points of damage to anything within 100 feet (Reflex DC 30 half). This explosion automatically destroys any weapons the balor is holding. The save DC is Constitution-based.

...no i'm not serious about using Balors. I just figured that the ability was fitting, if a bit too powerful. :smallbiggrin:
IIRC according to Fiendish Codex 1 even regular fiends have a canonical tendency to be sucked back into the lower planes on death, which potentially accomplishes functionally the same thing.

[The Vagabond]

What if they skin him?
How will they get the tattoos on their skin, then? It's physically attached to the mans skin. And he's dead. Plus, now they're carrying the skin of a dead man.
Or: Crafted contingent spells of erase on his mega-tattoo.

[Bohandas]

How will they get the tattoos on their skin, then? It's physically attached to the mans skin. And he's dead. Plus, now they're carrying the skin of a dead man.

regeneration spell while it/s held against where there used to be a patch of their own skin. Possibly the Graft Flesh feat as well

[Death_Lord12]

Alternatively, if you are willing to backport some pathfinder stuff, and your Wizard doesn't have Transfer Tattoos (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/t/transfer-tattoo) in his spellbook (or a way to cast the spell), magic tattoos (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/item-creation-feats/inscribe-magical-tattoo-item-creation) are a WONDERFUL way to provide boss items to the boss to boost his CR, while also not boosting the PCs WBL, while also maintaining verisimilitude.

Note, however, that you're going to have to boost the NPCs WBL to PC level; Magic tattoos cost twice as much as their corresponding item. Perhaps you could include lava in the area to immolate his skin so the tattoos are destroyed with his corpse.
I am willing to use Pathfinder stuff, and this could possibly work because his skin is already disfigured from the Devil's Flesh feat, so he has a hat of disguise to hide all that stuff. Also, if I make this guy blow up in fire when he dies then the tattoos will be removed.


Easy, just make the encounters into Balors (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm). They have this neat ability to explode and destroy their weapons upon death.

Death Throes (Ex)

When killed, a balor explodes in a blinding flash of light that deals 100 points of damage to anything within 100 feet (Reflex DC 30 half). This explosion automatically destroys any weapons the balor is holding. The save DC is Constitution-based.

...no i'm not serious about using Balors. I just figured that the ability was fitting, if a bit too powerful. :smallbiggrin:
Yeah it is very fitting but too powerful, if you happen to know of a toned down version though that'd be great.


If the character can use major creation and greater magic weapon/vestment, he can have powerful magic weapons and armour that go away after a while.
He has an indestructible weapon so I am not concerned with it, the armor though is Demon Armor (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Demon_Armor) and isn't needed to be destroyed but it would be nice, I basically want to see if I can incinerate this guy and all the items on him. The main thing I am looking for is ideas on how to destroy the various magic items he is carrying (armor, goggles, cape, etc.).


Another option might be to break the party down into more manageable sizes. Either by having multiple gaming groups or multiple encounters.
I considered this but I don't know if I want to do it, my original intent was to have a very challenging campaign. Encounters already take forever so I want those to a minimum, and this boss is designed to be alone (he is not the final boss, just so you know, THAT guy has an army of undead and shadow creatures). As for multiple groups, it's difficult enough to find someone to host, so I prefer the big group so that whoever shows up shows up and I don't have to worry about it, though there are those few that show up every session.


I just cheat on stats.

Why yes, the evil overlord did actually roll straight 18s and max hp on 15d12. How do you think he rose above all the other evil newbies in evil camp? The odds aren't that astronomical, just 1 in 1,564,736,443,504,341,985,078,529,753,088.

Work it backwards. Give him his final stats. Give him appropriate-to-the-party treasure. Figure out his sheet, including the treasure, and then just stick inherent or untyped bonuses wherever the sheet comes up short.
I like this idea.


Self-destructing equipment sounds a bit counterproductive, but self-retrieving equipment can be quite useful. Let's say you're sending disposable minions out to do your dirty work, but want to equip them. Or even for yourself - backup measures like Clone make death less of an issue, but losing all your stuff still sucks.

1) Custom craft all your items in slotless form. Specifically, small pomegranate-seed shaped gems.
2) Make sure one of those items is a Ring of Sustenance.
3) Craft a custom item: it's a metal pomegranate with slots for those gems. It has one ability - if you die, it will teleport (or plane shift) itself to a designated location.
4) Stick the seeds in the "pomegranate".
5) Swallow it (Enlarge Person may help).

In addition to saving your items in the event of your demise, it has the advantage that your items can't be stolen/sundered/disjoined/anything, because nobody has line of effect to them (and if "line of effect to inside someone's body" is allowed, have fun killing people with cantrips). Even anti-teleport or anti-magic fields won't stop the teleport, for the same reason.

Main downside - most of your items cost double.
This is very creative and a good idea, and yeah the double cost would suck if I was a Player, but this is for a rich NPC so I'll keep this in mind.


Soulknife or meldshaper characters
The class is already decided and won't be changed. If you're curious as to what it is, it's a homebrewed class I found here (https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Demon_Knight_(3.5e_Class)), though I modified it a bit by taking out the Demonic Empowerment part. Also, as you can see, the weapon is indestructible so again, not concerned about the weapon, it's all the other stuff.

Still open to suggestions.

[Jack Mann]

What do you want the magic items to accomplish? If it's higher stats, just give him higher stats. If it's special abilities, just say the demon's master bestowed them as gifts. Leave enough loot for wealth by level purposes.

Your players will probably never see his sheet, nor really care how he can do what he does.

Don't worry if your NPCs follow all the same rules as your players. Just make sure they make for a balanced encounter that will be fun for your players. If any of them ask, just tell them what you did and why. Most players will be cool with it.

[Ahus]

Sunder attempts are attacks on items specifically without attacking the wielder.

Any attack that would hit touch AC hits the armor first. Whether or not it penetrates the armor is a function of its hardness. By virtue of the critter inside being dead the armor must be damaged. Similarly any attack negated by Dex or Deflection is the critter explicitly parrying with whatever is in their hand the item granting the bonus. It is a lot easier to accept if they have to pause to get their own stuff fixed as well as their loot, and since they are not dead odds are that their stuff will be less damaged.

You can decide how hard it is to get stuff fixed after the battle. It might be anywhere from restringing the bow, casting mending, casting make whole, finding and paying an epic dwarf Necromancer with 26 ranks in Profession (Seamstress). This allows you to control the loot and makes craft skills exponentially more valuable.

[Death_Lord12]

What do you want the magic items to accomplish?
Well I had a list of like 10 items but I can't seem to find it, probably lost when my computer lost power and wasn't saved. Here's what I got so far:

Demon Armor
Hat of Disguise
something that gives +5 profane bonus to AC
something that gives +5 deflection bonus to AC
something that gives constant true seeing

The constant true seeing is my main concern, which I think the price on that would be at least 288 thousand gp. I may just make true seeing a supernatural ability though, as I've noticed several demons have it. At this point I'm more curious, though those other 5 items I misplaced are a slight concern (might just remove those completely though).

So judging from all the suggestions, I'll probably just make the true seeing + whatever crazy abilities into supernatural abilities or something that happened 'cause of reasons.

Thanks for all the help.

[zergling.exe]

Sunder attempts are attacks on items specifically without attacking the wielder.

Any attack that would hit touch AC hits the armor first. Whether or not it penetrates the armor is a function of its hardness. By virtue of the critter inside being dead the armor must be damaged. Similarly any attack negated by Dex or Deflection is the critter explicitly parrying with whatever is in their hand the item granting the bonus. It is a lot easier to accept if they have to pause to get their own stuff fixed as well as their loot, and since they are not dead odds are that their stuff will be less damaged.

You can decide how hard it is to get stuff fixed after the battle. It might be anywhere from restringing the bow, casting mending, casting make whole, finding and paying an epic dwarf Necromancer with 26 ranks in Profession (Seamstress). This allows you to control the loot and makes craft skills exponentially more valuable.

Are these all houserules? Because none of it is in base 3.5 rules that I can tell. Armor specifically cannot be targeted by sunder if it is worn, and items only take damage otherwise from being in an AoE that permits a save and their owner failing the save. Dex and Deflection are also completely unfluffed, with nothing even suggesting parrying.

I may be wrong on some of these things, but it definitely is more in line with the RAW.

[Endarire]

Buffs account for a lot! Don't load NPCs with any more permanent items than they need.

Also remember consumables and buffs from other people/casters count.

[Bohandas]

An item can gain magical abilities through inhabitation/possession by fiendish creatures. In addition to adding actual abilities to the item, a possessing fiend wih truesight might also relay such information as it finds it useful to pass along along to the item's wielder.

[nedz]

If you want your NPCs to have powerful items you can just make them intelligent items and give them an interesting personality.

Fell free to tweak the powers in the table in the DMG to be something more appropriate for the situation - and feel free to choose your dice rolls too.

A really powerful intelligent item will have a large ego and likely become an encounter in and of itself rather than mere loot.

This is similar to the cursed item concept - only a little more interesting.

Obviously the Items personality would be good to go with for the NPC - or maybe the item controlled them all along ?

[Aquillion]

Honestly, I would just avoid having the boosts be in the form of items. Some of the advice above would start to become very obvious and strange-feeling if you had every major NPC doing it (after all, why should the NPC care what happens to his items after death? Most of them would logically invest the time and energy into not dying instead.)

I'd give the NPC items appropriate for what you want the PCs to win by beating them, and then give other benefits in the form of extra feats, levels, allies and minions, etc. NPCs don't have to follow the same rules PCs do; and honestly, I suspect it will bother your players a lot more if you introduce powerful items and then use fairly convoluted methods to keep the PCs from getting them as opposed to just slipping a few extra feats, stat points, or numerical bonuses onto the NPC's sheet.

[Bohandas]

Belligerent intelligent item

[Sian]

In the case of being concerned about your PCs getting magical items, when their opponents kinda need them to give them a worthy fight due to numerical superiority, consider changing gear in your enemy creation, giving them more, slightly weaker opponents instead or make their enemies monsters having SLA's and the like (Demons and Devils are obvious choices for a wide palette of possibilities) ...

Long story short, I think your barking up the wrong tree with trying to find a solution to your problem ... your problem aren't the items you have to deck out the NPC's with, but that the NPC's need them in the first place due to being so outnumbered.

[Hiro Quester]

The Smoking Eye template from The Shackled City Adventure Path has an ability like that, although there's a delay of one round per character level before being shifted away (which can be delayed with dimensional anchor and similar spells).

We played SC in a large group like that. Some gods were aligned against our party, and equipped the monsters they sent to stop us.

So after we killed a monster it would begin slipping out of our dimension (the god who sent them reclaiming their minions). Any nearby player had one round to try to snatch an item from the monster before it dissipated. Depending on the player's dexterity and the type of item you wanted, that was only one or two items max.

We found it very fun and frustrating trying to make an informed guess about whether it would be better to take the dead monster's ring or necklace or weapon before it disappeared.

And we totally understood that the DM needed to superpower the bad guys to challenge us, while wanting to avoid us getting all the items that made the bad guys so challenging.

[Braininthejar2]

Dump the corpse in a bag of holding and you end up with the same problem.

It has to actually fit through the opening. I can see some reduce item shenanigans though.

[weckar]

Contingengy: Death teleport all your items into a bag of holding. And another Contingency to teleport that bag of holding into another bag of holding.

[Jack Mann]

Contingengy: Death teleport all your items into a bag of holding. And another Contingency to teleport that bag of holding into another bag of holding.

Contingency only allows you to cast spells on yourself. I'm also pretty sure that you can't actually teleport into a bag of holding, since it's not technically on the same plane.

No matter how you solve this, you have the issue that you're "cheating" the encounter a bit by giving him extra items above his CR, but then keeping the players from taking them. That's not a bad thing in and of itself, but a lot of these solutions are rubbing the fact in the players' faces. Some of them seem designed to punish players for looting the body (which honestly goes against the core principle of D&D; i.e. kill things and take their stuff).

Just go ahead and make them inherent abilities. Your players aren't likely to see the enemy's sheet, nor care that much. Most groups are going to understand if you tell them you boosted the bad guy's abilities a bit to make a better encounter. They know they're not going to be able to loot special monster abilities and class features. Having the abilities come from items and then keeping those from them is a bit like waving shiny new toys in front of them and saying "Nuh-uh, you don't get to play with these!"

[Ikitavi]

Well I had a list of like 10 items but I can't seem to find it, probably lost when my computer lost power and wasn't saved. Here's what I got so far:

Demon Armor
Hat of Disguise
something that gives +5 profane bonus to AC
something that gives +5 deflection bonus to AC
something that gives constant true seeing

The constant true seeing is my main concern, which I think the price on that would be at least 288 thousand gp. I may just make true seeing a supernatural ability though, as I've noticed several demons have it. At this point I'm more curious, though those other 5 items I misplaced are a slight concern (might just remove those completely though).

So judging from all the suggestions, I'll probably just make the true seeing + whatever crazy abilities into supernatural abilities or something that happened 'cause of reasons.

Thanks for all the help.

Well, that makes it a lot easier.

First off, some thoughts from my campaign:

Magic takes effort, and when someone makes a magic item, they will spend more effort into making it useful to themselves so that they do not lose, and very little effort on Spite.

Second, there are some existing lore examples. Githyanki are known for hunting down gear that was stolen from them with such ferocity that simply ransoming the stuff back is an option many PCs will consider. Also, powerful items can have a personality. It should not take much "You hear whispers in an empty room. Do you try to hear them or blot them out?" along with random "Make a Will Save" before players will get very jittery around powerful items.

Hat of Disguise? Go with the Tolkein options on this one. Some of the main bad guys will not only see through it, but will be alerted if it is used within miles of them. Or have it require a strong will to change back to normal form, or have it be addictive.

The AC part is easy. Have it provide the bonus for a day, because it always provides the bonus for a day. At which point the party realizes why the bad guy had so many people in his dungeon. For sacrifices to power the item.

Maybe the item itself isn't evil, so the party won't feel they have to destroy it, but it could be like Torg's sword in Sluggy Freelance, it just is very rare they would pay the moral cost to use it.

True Sight offers the most GM fun. Because it can be something that is subtly NOT TRUE sight. It is visions filtered by a malevolent deity that seeks to manipulate. So it works close to as it says on the tin for the bad guy, but a good guy using it? All sorts of potential trouble.

[Jack Mann]

Well, that makes it a lot easier.

First off, some thoughts from my campaign:

Magic takes effort, and when someone makes a magic item, they will spend more effort into making it useful to themselves so that they do not lose, and very little effort on Spite.

Second, there are some existing lore examples. Githyanki are known for hunting down gear that was stolen from them with such ferocity that simply ransoming the stuff back is an option many PCs will consider. Also, powerful items can have a personality. It should not take much "You hear whispers in an empty room. Do you try to hear them or blot them out?" along with random "Make a Will Save" before players will get very jittery around powerful items.

Hat of Disguise? Go with the Tolkein options on this one. Some of the main bad guys will not only see through it, but will be alerted if it is used within miles of them. Or have it require a strong will to change back to normal form, or have it be addictive.

The AC part is easy. Have it provide the bonus for a day, because it always provides the bonus for a day. At which point the party realizes why the bad guy had so many people in his dungeon. For sacrifices to power the item.

Maybe the item itself isn't evil, so the party won't feel they have to destroy it, but it could be like Torg's sword in Sluggy Freelance, it just is very rare they would pay the moral cost to use it.

True Sight offers the most GM fun. Because it can be something that is subtly NOT TRUE sight. It is visions filtered by a malevolent deity that seeks to manipulate. So it works close to as it says on the tin for the bad guy, but a good guy using it? All sorts of potential trouble.

The problem here is that you're taking something the GM wants to do, and using it to punish the players for basically no reason. Giving the party "screw you" items is kind of a jerk move. The problem here isn't that the players have done anything wrong (it's D&D, you're supposed to take the enemy's stuff), the problem is allowing them to do that without overpowering them. Screwing with them kind of helps with that, but it's weirdly punitive.

Since there's no reason to give the bad guy items in the first place (just make them inherent abilities), there's no reason to use the items to screw over the players.

Don't get me wrong, sometimes screwing with the players is the right thing to do. But it should be because it's going to move the story forward in some way. "Hahahahah! Those items you thought were good are actually bad!" doesn't move things forward. In fact, it halts progress, and by itself doesn't give any real payoff.

A GM is in a position of power in the game. Not only do you control what's in the game world, you control how much information the players possess. Telling them they've got really neat, cool items and then pulling the rug out from under them isn't clever or funny. On its own, it's just going to be frustrating to the players.

A little frustration can build up tension and give players a motivation to take out the villain. However, it has to lead to that pay-off, or it's just going to make the game less fun.

[Fitz10019]

As a hybrid of the intelligent items/demon grafts ideas, you could create a demonic symbiotic creature that is physically attached to the NPC, grants him the bonuses needed, and perhaps has some SLAs, too. It could also get it's own turn in the initiative to puzzle the PCs. Imagine it attaches at his shoulders with gripping hands, and give it useful rings. A difficult Spot check could let the PCs notice the rings at the NPC's shoulders. The symbiote could teleport itself away when the NPC dies, or it could play dead, waiting for a future opportunity to escape or to tempt a PC.

[ExLibrisMortis]

As a hybrid of the intelligent items/demon grafts ideas, you could create a demonic symbiotic creature that is physically attached to the NPC, grants him the bonuses needed, and perhaps has some SLAs, too. It could also get it's own turn in the initiative to puzzle the PCs. Imagine it attaches at his shoulders with gripping hands, and give it useful rings. A difficult Spot check could let the PCs notice the rings at the NPC's shoulders. The symbiote could teleport itself away when the NPC dies, or it could play dead, waiting for a future opportunity to escape or to tempt a PC.
These exist, have a look at this lovely (cough) resource (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?190350-Fleshwarping-A-List-of-Grafts-Symbionts-and-Related-Goodies).

[Bohandas]

Aligned weapons bestow negative levels on creatures of opposite alignment that attempt to wield them. That could make them less useful when looted.

If the villain's a spellcaster their last act could be to break their staff for a retributive strike. I believe there were rules in one of the books (or possibly an issue of Dragon) for adding he retributive strike ability to staffs that don't usually have it, but I forget which book it's from (and that's assuming that I didn't imagine it)

EDIT:
What if they wore their most powerful ring on their toe. That might get overlooked. Especially if they're wearig thick armor that might interfere with detect magic. If the players don't specifically say it give them one chance with a high dc search check and if they fail it gets left behind.

[Sun Elemental]

It looks like the fundamental problem is, how does a DM make a villain powerful without making the loot too powerful? First, decide how powerful you want him to be, stats-wise, including all his powers/items.

If he's overwhelmingly more powerful than the party, he'll destroy them in combat. Don't make him a combat monster, make him a roleplaying-only enemy. Ignore his combat powers and items. Win or lose versus his intrigues, the rewards and consequences will be role-playing based, with no risk of death. Win and he praises them, maybe even gives a fraction of an encounter's treasure value as a gift. Lose and he publically smears them, maybe even fabricating criminal charges that they struggle against. All this protects the party from fighting a massively overleveled villain.

If he isn't overwhelmingly more powerful than the party, with all his items, then they'll destroy him. They're Player Characters, that's what they do. You made him a villain and gave him combat stats, stats are meant to be used. Don't get attached to him. Give him strategy, let him use all his items, give him competent minions to help in combat, maybe even escape once or twice... but let them kill him.

Them, give them level appropriate (but not random), normal, un-cursed treasure. Who cares about discrepancies between the loot and his powers? Paladins, Antipaladins, Maguses and Inquisitors can all enchant butterknives into +3 Flaming Butterknives. Greater Magic Weapon and Vestment are legitimate spells that people use. It really shouldn't be a big deal, and players shouldn't expect villains that are as powerful as them to have much more powerful loot.
If all else fails, just give the villain a template that gives him unique powers. We do it all the time for liches and vampires, why is this any different?

[JBiddles]

I'm not sure if this has been brought up, but you could have this armour be granted to the NPC by some demon or other, and so it bursts into unholy flame and returns to its home plane on his death.

Alternatively, take the Elder Scrolls Daedric armour approach: it's alive and designed for that person, and will try to kill you if you wear it.

[Gildedragon]

Alternatively, take the Elder Scrolls Daedric armour approach: it's alive and designed for that person, and will try to kill you if you wear it.
I've never run into daedric armor that did that: is that from daggerfall?