Ask your doctor is Stormguard Warrior is right for you

[Valcor]

Ok, the decision has been made to go Warblade after 4 levels of Fighter. FAR too many hours have been put into figuring out WHAT being a martial adept means and working through all those maneuvers! (should have seen last game night - I literally had to just pick a couple low levels maneuvers and start the game, I had NO idea...haha:smalleek:)


So now I've got an idea. My half-orc is designed to be a sword and board character, two-weapon fighting and all. So, obviously we're not quite optimizing here - however, DM is nice and is working with me to create some maneuvers particularly for S&B usefulness. more on that later.

What I'm trying to figure out is my feat build. I love the idea of shield-bashing and charging. I'm pretty sure I want to go with Shock Trooper for the trip attempt (and will use Bounding Assault). I'm not as interested in Combat Brute, and not sure about the feasibility/possibility of investing in Dungeon Crasher.

feats so far:
Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Shield Bash, Power Attack, Cleave, Powerful Build

Powerful Build was allowed as a replacement for Monkey Grip (wow, so much better than monkey grip. my eyes have been opened to MG suck factor, thanks to the playground) and to be taken with a flaw. I have been offered some flexibility from my DM to change feats retroactively. (and probably those maneuvers I picked, but I'm keeping Charge of the Minotaur!) So I now have one free feat to spend!

Questions:
-Is improved shield bash worth it? Feats are so precious, and my shield only gives me +2AC, but I pretty much bash every round)
-Is POWER ATTACK worth it? I know it is the golden child, but I don't use a two-handed weapon. (actually, I use a great sword one-handed, coincidently, have you ever heard someone wonder if the RAW "when using a two-handed weapon" could be interpreted that I AM able to get max potential out of PA?)
-I should ditch Cleave, shouldn't I? My thought is that it will get less useful than another feat could be. However, there is a pretty high mook-factor in our game, which is battlefield mostly. Might it be the best choice? A free attack is a free attack - and I am enlarged, so the 13foot half-orc has an easy time agro-ing enemies within threat.
-I'm not able to take bonus feats that AREN'T from the warblade list once I'm warblade - is that correct?

-The big question is what to aim for. I have read many places that Stormguard is just the bomb +vorpal bag of chips. I do NOT think Robilar's gambit will be cool with my DM. I don't plan to do any dipping in other classes (I don't think DM would approve of Spirit Lion Totem either - we're really character driven) Is it plausible that I can develop enough AoO to make it worth it? Is it really that good? There are so many directions to go with Warblade feats alone!
-Should I focus on tripping instead? (and pay the tax of Combat Expertise - not to mention have to budget out an item for +3 Int?)
-Final question: is there a build that allows for dazing or even stunning from shield bashing?

thanks guys - as always, you've been super helpful!
-Valcor

[Darrin]

What I'm trying to figure out is my feat build. I love the idea of shield-bashing and charging. I'm pretty sure I want to go with Shock Trooper for the trip attempt (and will use Bounding Assault). I'm not as interested in Combat Brute, and not sure about the feasibility/possibility of investing in Dungeon Crasher.


Dungeon Crasher has some rules issues, in that you can't legally move your target into a wall/object because the wall/object is blocking him from moving into that square. However, it's not entirely a mystery on how the feat was intended to work, so a short conversation with the DM about this should clear it up.



-Is improved shield bash worth it? Feats are so precious, and my shield only gives me +2AC, but I pretty much bash every round)


There's still some debate about how important AC should be, and what sort of "minimum AC" would be good. This depends a great deal on the campaign, how "tough" the DM can be, how well the other players optimize, and so forth, so it's pretty hard to pin down for any particular group. I've seen a "rule of thumb" suggested for minimum AC should be 15 + (1.5 x Character Level), but some people would laugh at that.

There are other ways to make up for that +2 AC, but for the most part, you usually need Improved Shield Bash to qualify for more interesting shield-related feats, such as Shield Charge and Shield Slam.

As far as "Is it worth it?", that's probably a *NO*, as you're much more likely to get consistently high damage output just by two-handing a greatsword. A better question would be, "Is it more interesting to have this feat?" and that would probably be a *YES*, although it depends on what feat chains you're investing in, and whether they open up interesting things to do, or give you a bunch of hypothetical situations that hardly ever occur in the game.



-Is POWER ATTACK worth it? I know it is the golden child, but I don't use a two-handed weapon. (actually, I use a great sword one-handed, coincidently, have you ever heard someone wonder if the RAW "when using a two-handed weapon" could be interpreted that I AM able to get max potential out of PA?)


For two-handed weapons, *YES*. For TWF... harder to say, but probably a *NO*, mostly because it's a complete waste for light weapons, and your offhand weapon is almost always light. There are a few methods to use Power Attack with TWF:

1) Oversized TWF (Complete Adventurer). Allows you to wield a one-handed weapon in your offhand and treat it as light for the purposes of TWF. For the purposes of Power Attack, it's still a one-handed weapon, so you get a PA damage bonus (although at only x1.0 multiplier). You can use a heavy shield with this feat, as it's treated as a one-handed weapon.

2) Agile Shield Fighter (PHBII). This feat *replaces* the TWF penalties with -2 primary/-2 offhand penalties. So you can TWF with a heavy shield and get the same penalties as if it were a light weapon. But it's not a light weapon, and still gets Power Attack damage. The problem with Agile Shield Fighter is it requires an additional feat, Shield Specialization. As you said, feats are precious, so Oversized TWF is usually more effective than Agile Shield Fighter.

3) Improved Unarmed Strike (Core). You can use your unarmed strike as an offhand weapon even if your hands are busy doing something else. It's a light weapon, but explicitly works with Power Attack because the feat says it does.



-I should ditch Cleave, shouldn't I? My thought is that it will get less useful than another feat could be. However, there is a pretty high mook-factor in our game, which is battlefield mostly. Might it be the best choice? A free attack is a free attack - and I am enlarged, so the 13foot half-orc has an easy time agro-ing enemies within threat.


Cleave is a decent feat, because it gets you extra attacks without a lot of fuss and bother. But it's not always dependable, and in a TWF build, it eats a feat slot that could go to something you use every round, rather than something you only get to use once or twice an encounter.



-I'm not able to take bonus feats that AREN'T from the warblade list once I'm warblade - is that correct?


I'm not sure what you mean here, but if you mean, once you reach Warblade 5, do you have to pick bonus feats from the Warblade list? Yes, just those feats. But if you take more levels of Fighter, you get more fighter bonus feats, and those don't have to be from the Warblade list.



-The big question is what to aim for. I have read many places that Stormguard is just the bomb +vorpal bag of chips. I do NOT think Robilar's gambit will be cool with my DM. I don't plan to do any dipping in other classes (I don't think DM would approve of Spirit Lion Totem either - we're really character driven) Is it plausible that I can develop enough AoO to make it worth it? Is it really that good? There are so many directions to go with Warblade feats alone!


I am... ambivalent about Stormguard Warrior. My biggest problem with it is, you have to be able to say that, if I wait a turn and unload all my damage on the second turn, is that really doing more damage than doing two full attacks in a row? And that's a really difficult question to answer when you bring in things like terrain, enemy AC, number of enemies, etc. I think that over several battles, you're much more likely to get a higher damage output by just full attacking whenever possible, rather than trying to stagger your bonus damage into every other round.



-Should I focus on tripping instead? (and pay the tax of Combat Expertise - not to mention have to budget out an item for +3 Int?)


Yes, tripping is a good debuff and makes battles a little more tactically interesting, but no, you should not pay the tax of Combat Expertise. Take a two-level dip into Barbarian, and after you pick up the Spirit Lion Totem ACF for Pounce (Complete Champion), get the Wolf Totem ACF for Improved Trip (Unearthed Arcana).



-Final question: is there a build that allows for dazing or even stunning from shield bashing?


Yes. You need the Shield Slam feat from Complete Warrior. Include a shield bash as part of your charge attack, and your enemy has to make a Fort save vs dazed for one round. A few weeks ago, I posted a Dual Shield build (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20733240&postcount=84) (page down a bit) in my TWF OffHandbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?279079-3-5-The-TWF-OffHandbook) that uses Shield Slam, among other things.

As far as your particular build... I sounds like you have something similar to:

Race: Half-Orc
1) Fighter 1. Feat: Power Attack. Bonus: Cleave. Flaw: Powerful Build.
2) Fighter 2. Bonus: TWF.
3) Fighter 3. Feat: Improved Bull Rush.
4) Fighter 4. Bonus: Improved Shield Bash.
5) Warblade 1.

I'm not sure where you've got the open feat, unless you mean you want to trade one of your existing feats for something else. I don't know if I'd swap anything out yet... sorta depends on the long-term plans of the build, because you can mix bull rushing, shield bashing, and TWF together once you get enough feats.

For maneuvers... you get three and a stance to start with, but can pick up to 2nd level maneuvers because your IL is 3. Keep in mind for a TWF Warblade you want to focus mostly on counters and swift-action maneuvers, as every standard-action strike you use means your TWF feats are going to waste. Which is not to say you shouldn't have a couple strikes, but try to save them for unusual situations/emergencies. Some maneuvers I'd recommend as strong picks:

Punishing Stance (Iron Heart 1): For TWF, you're probably going to be spending 90% of your time in this stance, even at higher levels. D&D combat is a race to reduce your opponent's HPs to zero, and this gets you there faster. Start with this stance... when you get to Warblade 4, I usually pick up Leading the Charge (if I've got pounce) rather than a 3rd level stance. Even without pounce, starting off with Leading the Charge on round 1 and then switching to Punishing Stance after that is still pretty darned effective. I see a lot of people recommend Hunter's Sense, which helps you pinpoint invisible opponents, but for that you can buy a dog (25 GP). Also, flour pouches (1 SP, Dungeonscape) and Torchbug Paste (25 GP, Complete Scoundrel) are cheap.

Wolf Fang Strike (Tiger Claw 1): This allows a "mini-pounce": move action to get into melee range, then two attacks as a standard action. However, mostly I take this maneuver to qualify for Sudden Leap. Once you get Pounce + TWF working reliably, you won't need it so much, and it will probably be the first maneuver you trade away at Warblade 4. Oh, and there's a quirk to it: the penalties for Wolf Fang Strike supercede the typical TWF penalties, so you can do some non-typical stuff with it, like attacking with two one-handed weapons with only a -2 penalty on each.

Sudden Leap (Tiger Claw 1): Swift-action movement is a game-changer for TWF, as it allows you to move + full attack and all those TWF feats won't go to waste. If you're already standing next to an opponent, leaping 10' back sets you up for another charge + pounce. Note that, unlike a typical Jump check, you don't worry about a running start or doubling the DC, although you may want to be careful about "overjumping" with a high roll.

Moment of Perfect Mind (Diamond Mind 1): Pretty much the essential "I'm a Warblade" maneuver. Even if Will wasn't one of your weakest saves, skill ranks go up faster than your base saves, and you don't autofail when you roll a "1" on a Concentration check. It's also a counter, so it's TWF-friendly. Another good reason to keep it around is you need four Diamond Mind prereqs to get Time Stands Still (sort of the "Capstone" for TWF Warblades), and this is probably going to be one of them.

Mountain Hammer (Stone Dragon 2): If you're going to get a strike, make sure you get this one. Damage Reduction tends to hurt TWF much harder than two-handers, who can just Power Attack their way through it. Being able to ignore DR for a single attack doesn't entirely solve everything for TWF, but you do get some bonus damage, and it's much more satisfying to at least get one solid hit in than watch a bunch of smaller hits go PING. It also ignores hardness, which is why I call this the Swiss Army Chainsaw: outside of combat, you can cut through anything: adamantine doors, iron portcullis, stone walls, etc.

Wall of Blades (Iron Heart 2): A great NOPE! card, but I usually don't have room for it, because I'm trying to squeeze in something like Iron Heart Surge or White Raven Tactics... which sometimes means I'm ignoring my own advice, as this is a counter and TWF Warblades should have a good mix of those.


Charging Minotaur... ok, it's not a bad pick, but it doesn't work well with TWF, and it's not something you'll be using over and over again in the same encounter. I do like the ability to move your opponent a bit, which opens up some tactical possibilities, and doing damage on a bull rush is nice. It's a good "first round opener" if you don't have Pounce yet, and I do like to have at least one maneuver available that I can use with a charge, but probably not something you're going to want to keep long-term.

[Thiyr]

While I think Darrin has provided a lot of really good information there, I want to point out one fun interaction I discovered about a number of things mentioned in here if we add in one more super secret ingredient.

See, Stormguard Warrior and Dungeoncrasher actually work surprisingly well together with the addition of the Knockback feat from Races of Stone. If you have powerful build you qualify to take it, and it states that if you "score a hit while using the power attack feat" you get a free bullrush attempt with a bonus equal to the penalty you took (2x the penalty if you're using a two-handed weapon). But it never says you need to damage.

I'm sure you can probably see where this is heading. Stormguard Warrior's Combat Rhythm lets you replace your normal melee attack with a melee touch attack that does no damage. Free, easy touch attacks. And power attack lets you decide before making any attacks to subtract from attack and add to damage for all melee attacks. Normally you'd have no reason to power attack if you're not getting the bonus damage, but this makes the dead time in round 1 as you're charging up combat rhythm actually be really solid uptime. Round 1, you have a near-guarantee to get your hit+bullrush, as you power attack for some high portion of your BAB and get your bonus. Your attack does no damage, but your bullrush still happens separately, and THAT does damage as your opponent hits walls or other solid objects. Then next round you use power attack more conservatively so you retain a decent chance to hit, plus bonus damage from combat rhythm, plus potential dungeoncrashing. It helps alleviate the issues Darrin brought up, though it could potentially be construed as mildly cheesy. Without pounce you're at a bit of a disadvantage with it, but once you've closed on your enemy, it puts you in a rather good spot.

[Valcor]

Hey guys - I just want to say thank you for this IMMENSE amount of thought. I'm still chewing through it! Sorry to take so long to reply, but really - thanks a lot!
~Valcor:smallbiggrin:

[Fizban]

Stormguard Warrior is for people that sometimes don't want to bother attacking but do want extra damage. Everything I see points to sword and board with Combat Expertise: you turtle up for a turn with -5/+5, or even -9/+7 (if you fight defensively on top of the feat's option), and roll touch attacks because your normal attacks wouldn't hit with that penalty. You take no damage because if your AC was good enough to be in melee then +7 means you're not being hit now. Then next turn you unload the damage. The third part even requires using Expertise or fight defensively, and offsets some of the penalty if you're hitting multiple dudes every turn. Note however that Stormguard requires Ironheart Aura, a feat which does nothing for you (gives adjacent allies +2 on saves), and of course you need 13 int to take Combat Expertise (unless you can find a Barbarian ACF that gives it at 1st, or eat the BAB penalty from a Passive Way Monk dip, or get your DM to waive the int requirement).

The takeaway is that for all people like to go full aggro all the time, Stormguard Warrior is actually an extremely defensive feat. While a dead foe is the best defense, unless your DM allows you to actually run ubercharger builds that can kill someone on turn 1, it doesn't matter if you do the damage on turn 1 or turn 2. Not dying from lack of AC is a serious plus, and the AC bonus from Combat Expertise/fight defensively/Pearl of Black Doubt all work against touch attacks from spellcasters and freaking incorporeal undead just as well.

IMPORTANT NOTE: check with your DM on weather you can use the Combat Rhythm function in place of any attack, or if it has to apply to all your attacks that turn. The way it's written with "choose to make melee touch attacks in place of normal melee attacks" using the plural implies it might effect all attacks, but isn't explicit about it. If you can just use it for your last iterative attack each round then you don't even need a spiffy combo, it's just trading a hail-mary attack for free damage, at least at higher levels when you have 3rd and 4th attacks which aren't going to hit. I suspect this looser reading is why most people are gaga about the feat. At the level you're at this doesn't matter so much yet.

Since the bonus damage from Stormguard works on every hit, switching from sword 'n board to sword 'n bash isn't a bad idea. If you're fully embracing the defenses up/defenses down dichotomy then don't bother with Improved Shield Bash, but if you want your AC to be better all around then I'd say go for it and swap from TWF to Agile Shield Fighter for more damage. With maneuvers and powerful build you don't need to rely on Power Attack nearly as much.

You could go Ironheart Aura (say that your Warblade level happened earlier as part of your reshuffle), Improved Shield Bash, Shield Spec, Agile Shield Fighter, Combat Expertise, and finally Stormguard Warrior at 6th for your general feat. Unless your plan was to get all 2nd level manuevers out of your starting pile from Warblade (part of that fiddly multiclass friendly stuff), but I don't find that as useful for Warblades as it is for the others. You can easily fill your 3 starting manuevers with 1st levels (Steel Wind, Wolf Fang Strike, and Sudden Leap or Moment of Perfect Mind) and pick up Mountain Hammer or Wall of Blades next level instead of omgrightnow. Wall of Blades would be perfect for when you drop your AC and they try to hit you, just nope Wall of Blades!

Race: Half-Orc
1) Fighter 1. General Feat: Improved Shield Bash. Bonus: Shield Specialization. Flaw: Powerful Build.
2) Fighter 2. Bonus: Agile Shield Fighter.
3) Warblade 1. General Feat: Ironheart Aura. (Stance: Punishing Stance, Maneuvers: Steel Wind, Wolf Fang Strike, Sudden Leap)*
4) Fighter 3.
5) Fighter 4. Bonus: Combat Expertise.
6) Warblade 2. General Feat: Stormguard Warrior (Maneuver: Wall of Blades)*
7) Warblade 3. (Maneuver: you've got IL 5 now so 3rds are open and you've got lots of choices for your 1 pick)

8) Warblade 4. (Stance: Pearl of Black Doubt-this stance is crazy good for tanking holy nuts. Manuever: you can swap one of your old manuevers here, upgrading it to 2nd or 3rd level in the process, assuming you're unsatisfied with any of them.

9) Warblade 5. You've got a 4th level maneuver here, as well as two feats, both of which could even be Martial Study for more maneuvers. Or just break down and get Power Attack, but if you're using this build it's not going to be very useful. You could Martial Study (say, Shield Block)+Martial Stance (Thicket of Blades) if you like punishing people for walking away from you. Warblade bonus feats are actually quite limited, but Stone Power is good: area attacks that ignore AC can be blunted with temporary hp using this while building Rhythm.


*Technically the order of operations for leveling up says feats must be selected before spells and checking class features, but I don't think I've ever heard of anyone actually running it this way and you probably wouldn't have known if I hadn't just mentioned it. So forget I said anything! (Consider how many caster builds have Touch of Healing or Fiery Burst at 3rd level-same thing).

If you can get a basic +1 Bashing Heavy Shield (4,000gp+ mwk shield), that's a 2d6 weapon in your off hand with only the -2 penalty for a light weapon (possibly up to 3d6 if your DM lets Bashing boost the spikes on the shield), and it comes with a +1 enhancement bonus. Paired with a large longsword for a 2d6 weapon in your main hand you have the same base dice as a large greatsword at this level, more if you're both Enlarged/Punishing Stanced (only less if you're both Hasted and nothing else). Note that with Shield Spec you're getting +3 from a non-magical heavy shield, shield+armor are the two cheapest ways of boosting your AC, and they don't overlap with the good AC buff spells (Shield of Faith/Magic Circle/Barkskin). Finally, you could try to sneak in one of my houserules: in order to make a difference between buckler/light/heavy shields, I bumped light shields to +2 and heavy to +3 (which would be +4 with Shield Spec). It's "only" +1, but those little +1's keep adding up and then when you turn on the Expertise suddenly you're invincible.

You main tactic is this: walk straight up to your enemy talking smack and telling them to beware the storm and use Combat Expertise with Stormguard-Combat Rhythm for a single touch, which ought to hit. Either they attack you and miss, or they get away. If they stand and fight you can full attack for three hits with 2d6+5 base. If they run you can forfeit an AoO to Stormguard-Channel the Storm and then Sudden Leap or Wolf Fang Strike to make multiple attacks anyway, this time at 2d6+9 with an extra +4 to hit, and use Wall of Blades if they try to hit you while your defenses are "down". If you want to go all out and they're cornered or your jump modifier is good, you can use Wolf Fang for +10 Rhythm on turn 1 and then rely on Sudden Leap into full attack on turn 2 with 2d6+10 base, or 2d6+14 if they provoked. When you run out of maneuvers, just spend a turn turtling and building Rhythm while you recover.

Actually that second version is more consistent, use that: turn 1 builds Rhythm with a manuever, turn 2 chases and punishes and Wall of Blades, turn 3 builds Rhythm and recovers maneuvers, turn 4 chases and punishes, etc. If your foe doesn't evade then you don't need your manuevers to cycle the hurt and can just alternate Expertise+Rhythm+recovery and offense+Wall of Blades. Obviously things will get muddier once you have more swift/immediate actions, or if you're trying to switch Punishing Stance on and off, and with more foes, but that's how the cookie crumbles.

If you have the pleasure of fighting multiple foes you can instead open with Steel Wind to hit both (for normal damage), then then take -4/+4 Expertise which becomes -2/+4 thanks to Stormguard-Fight the Horde as you trade full attacks. And if they decide to go hit someone else then you can Channel the Storm for +4/+4 and punish them with Wolf Fang or Sudden Leap+full attack.

[Troacctid]

Well, Sudden Leap isn't actually going to let you attack after they withdraw, unless you can make epic Jump checks without a running start. Even if they only move 30 feet, that's a DC 60. Pretty difficult.

[Fizban]

Darrin seems to disagree, though I think your reading is more correct. That's why you switch the maneuvers around depending on the distances and terrain involved. And remember that jump is the easiest skill to boost.

[Troacctid]

Darrin was talking about using pounce. Different thing.

[Fizban]

For reference:

Sudden Leap (Tiger Claw 1): Swift-action movement is a game-changer for TWF, as it allows you to move + full attack and all those TWF feats won't go to waste. If you're already standing next to an opponent, leaping 10' back sets you up for another charge + pounce. Note that, unlike a typical Jump check, you don't worry about a running start or doubling the DC, although you may want to be careful about "overjumping" with a high roll.
The second part about ignoring running starts was what I meant. Darrin says the manuever ignores that, but by my reading it doesn't: you "move the distance determined by your check result," and since you're making a standing jump that's half the jump check in feet, unless you actually used it after moving 20' in a straight line of course (good for a sort of twisted not charge). Thus I agree that Sudden Leap won't let you pursue someone trying to seriously evade you, but if the non-you targets are close by or you're in small dungeon rooms then it's sufficient.

As for using Sudden Leap to set up pounce, this amuses me greatly. I tend to glaze over at mention of Spirit Lion Totem the same way I do with Celerity, they're both so obviously overpowered you can't use them as the standard. If you're bringing 1st level pounce into things then you really don't need martial maneuvers. But it's quite true that Sudden Leap is a great way to set up pounce from whatever source you manage to get it: a Warblade dip for a Druid or Wildshape Ranger who likes pouncing is an excellent idea, as the standing full attack of pouncing creatures is often underwhelming.

Also, back to the Monk dip idea: not only can you grab Combat Expertise without needing the int, it does boost your unarmed strike. You could use unarmed+TWF instead of the ISB/Shield Spec/Agile Shield Fighter line, since making an unarmed attack doesn't stop your shield bonus. And you qualify for Snap Kick which is even more attacks to build up/deliver Rhythm damage. Downside is that both Stormguard and Snap Kick require BAB 6+ and are not on bonus feat lists, so you've got to take one at 6th and one at 9th. You want Monk early for Combat Expertise, but the BAB penalty means you can't take either of those at 6th. You'd have to suffer another level or two of incomplete build:

Race: Half-Orc
1) Fighter 1. General Feat: ? Bonus: TWF. Flaw: Powerful Build.
2) Fighter 2. Bonus: ?
3) Warblade 1. General Feat: Ironheart Aura. (Stance: Punishing Stance, Maneuvers: Steel Wind, Wolf Fang Strike, Sudden Leap)
4) Fighter 3.
5) Fighter 4. Bonus: ?
6) Warblade 2. General Feat: Stormguard Warrior (Maneuver: Wall of Blades)
7) Monk 1. Bonus: Combat Expertise
8) Warblade 3. (Maneuver: you've got IL 6 now so 3rds are open and you've got lots of choices for your 1 pick)
9) Warblade 4. General Feat: Snap Kick (Stance: Pearl of Black Doubt)

10) Warblade 5. Warblade bonus feat and a Manuvuever of up to 4th level (IL 7). Stone Power might be nice, but that means this manuever needs to be a Stone Dragon: Mountain Hammer, Bonecrusher, or maybe Overwhelming Mountain Strike.
. . .
12) Warblade 7. General feat here, and finally learning a 5th level manuever. As a TWFer you want Dancing Mongoose. Presumably it's supposed to be used as part of a full attack, otherwise Pouncing Charge at the same level would be rather meh, but the way I'm reading it you can use Dancing Mongoose after any attack action-so you could use it after move+attack or move+Wolf Fang, for 4-5 attacks while moving, or 7 full attacking (five at -6, but the last iterative is at -14).


You're at 5th now, you need to wait until 6th for Stormguard no matter what. With this monk-dip build you have to wait for 7th to get Expertise in for the tanky part of the combo, but that's still only one level later. It also leaves 3 feats open so you can load up on other stuff, such as keeping your existing Power Attack+Cleave and grabbing a side of Combat Reflexes, and has even more attacks thanks to both TWF and Snap Kick. The downside here is that you have to be Lawful, you lose one point of BAB, and one point of AC from not having Shield Spec, and your offhand attack is only 1d6 (or maybe 1d8) unarmed instead of 2d6 (or 3d6 with favorable Bashing+spikes).

With TWF+Snap Kick you can get up to +20 from Stormguard on a full attack (-4/-4/-4/-9 touches), which should chew through DR just fine when you attack. And if you're naked for some reason you can Flurry to reach as high as +25. But the most important thing is that you can Snap Kick even on a normal standard action attack or strike, so you can always get +10 Rhythm or deliver two attacks while moving even if you're out of manuevers. This makes you much more consistently mobile once you've hit level 9.

You could also go with Improved Trip (ew) instead of Snap Kick, which with the loose reading of Stormguard (and some Combat Reflexes) will let you Expertise, trip, follow up with Rhythm, finish your full attack with Rhythm, Gather when they stand up, Gather if they move without Withrdawing, and potentially get some 3 Rhythms (-2/-2/-7, but they're prone cause you tripped on the first attack) plus two Gathers, for +8 hit and +23 damage on the next round. But I don't like trip builds in the first place and would prefer the consistency of Snap Kick for building Rhythm if I'm sacrificing the Bashing shield damage.

All of that TWF/Snap Kick/Trip comboing still happens under your full Armor+Shield bonuses, using Combat Expertise while building up your Rhythm/Gather bonuses, with Wall of Blades available. So you should be ridiculously hard to hit on your prep turn and still have good AC plus a counter on your offense turn, and you've got your Snap Kick/Wolf Fang/Sudden Leap to help with keeping up attacks while moving.