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View Full Version : D&D 5e/Next The Warlord (Base Class)(WIP)



R.Shackleford
2016-06-07, 10:05 PM
Was inspired recently by http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?489864-Four-New-Base-Classes and decided to make a Warlord.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1YHu1acrT-7Zcaot0PZJAy5xNv5s7K_qx-BRiwOFRf6A/edit?usp=sharing

I wanted to make a teamwork fighter type, one that can do some damage but has enough utility and growth that you aren't playing a level 5 character when you reach level 15+.


Some Notes


Essentially as a class I really like the "1 attack + bonus damage on a stipulation + utility features" set up that the rogue has going on. There are already a lot of classes that do the 2 attacks + nova capabilities so I'm not even giving this class the Extra Attack feature... Mostly due to their "Lead by Example" ability will work as an extra attack (mostly).

If you think martials should be simply *i move and hit* then this is NOT the class for you. There is a lot of that, yes, however a well timed "Charge!" or "Words of Insight" can really save your skin.

Deflect is an alternative to Deflect Missile from the monk, 5e usually doesn't like the abilities being simular with different names or different names for the same ability but... Barbarian and Monk both have Unarmored Defense and they both work differently soo... I don't really care that much since they already broke that rule.

The place i'm sitting on the fence with this class is...

The DC for the 3rd level Commanding Style feature. I don't want it to be too hard early on but I don't want it to be too easy later on. I also want to keep it easy and just something they can do without needing imput from the DM... But I don't want it to be automatic, well at least not until later levels.

The DPR, I feel like I'm missing something. I know that the -5/+10 feat can be used... But it doesn't apply to Lead by Example. Polearm master can increase the DPR a little but Veteran Strike only applies to 1 attack on your turn. Combat Style only works 1/turn so that won't be an issue... Maybe I'm being paranoid.

I need to edit the wording quite a bit still

This be Richard
2016-06-09, 09:39 AM
You should probably list the feature improvements on the chart. Coordinated Offensive improves at every "dead level" you have listed, for example, so they probably shouldn't look dead.

Combat Style
Does this feature work with ranged weapons?
If turning the effect into damage isn't cumulative with features from fighting styles, how does that interact with fighting style features that don't impact damage, like Archery, Defense, and Protection?

Coordinated Offensive
The weapon selection seems a little arbitrary.
Why does the attack deal 1d10 damage instead of whatever's normal for the weapon?
Taking this up to 5d10 plus mod as levels are gained seems like it might be a bit on the overpowered side. Offensive reactions don't really seem to scale much in the vanilla game, and this reaction is more powerful than a Wizard's Fire Bolt cantrip. Probably better than a Valor Bard attacking twice. Etcetera. It's more powerful as a reaction than what some people do for their turn's main action, especially at high levels.
Even if it didn't scale like crazy, it would still be awfully powerful to give a character a chance to reaction-attack pretty much every round. The shadow monk gets a significantly more limited version of this feature... at level seventeen.
I'd much rather see Extra Attack added to the class at level five and this feature toned way down than have this be the big-time damage source for the class.

Charge!
Letting the entire party move is a really powerful option. It's somewhat balanced by the rest restriction and the fact that a check is necessary, but I'm not entirely sure it works.

Veteran Strike
This seems reasonable. Comparable to a paladin's Improved Smite. Might actually want to beef it up a little -- maybe take away the 1/turn restriction. I'm a bit leery of allowing the choice of two ability scores -- that isn't usually a thing -- but it's not a huge deal.

Cunning DeterminationI'm assuming you mean Int, Wis, and Cha by "mental saving throws"? Might want to spell that out. Again, I'm not sure I like getting the choice of ability.

Spit, Grit, and Elbow Grease
Okay.

Never Give Up / Never Surrender
By "massive damage," do you mean "instant death" from taking too much damage all at once?
I might suggest making the get-back-up-when-you're-down feature once per long rest, but allow it to restore more HP. Half their HP, maybe?
This feature seems a little difficult to rationalize functioning in a mundane, martial way.

Resourceful Warlord
Observe Weakness gives information on a bonus action that a higher-level Battlemaster needs a minute to puzzle out. I don't think the check makes that fair.
Jack of All Trades is really powerful for a relatively low-level subclass feature.
Resourceful Charge is really good, but I don't think I'd have a problem with it if I were more comfortable with Charge to begin with.
Observe Weakness Improved works for me.

Inspiring Warlord
Words of Insight... removing any one source of disadvantage as much as once every turn is a really big deal. It remains a big deal at high levels, too, when the check would be laughably easy. And I don't know of a good way to make the DC scale without effectively punishing the player for leveling up.
Deflect doesn't seem unbalanced so much as it feels out of place.
Inspiring Platoon seems okay, I guess.
The level 14 feature actually feels better to me than the level 3 feature because it can only be used once per short rest.

Templar
It'd probably be simpler to just use Int or Cha as the casting ability than to make it wisdom and let the Templar use wisdom for other checks.
It seems like you're going for a third-caster warlock-style build here. That's... interesting, but I'm not sure how well it balances. Warlock casting is weird.

R.Shackleford
2016-06-09, 11:06 AM
You should probably list the feature improvements on the chart. Coordinated Offensive improves at every "dead level" you have listed, for example, so they probably shouldn't look dead.

Combat Style
Does this feature work with ranged weapons?
If turning the effect into damage isn't cumulative with features from fighting styles, how does that interact with fighting style features that don't impact damage, like Archery, Defense, and Protection?

Coordinated Offensive
The weapon selection seems a little arbitrary.
Why does the attack deal 1d10 damage instead of whatever's normal for the weapon?
Taking this up to 5d10 plus mod as levels are gained seems like it might be a bit on the overpowered side. Offensive reactions don't really seem to scale much in the vanilla game, and this reaction is more powerful than a Wizard's Fire Bolt cantrip. Probably better than a Valor Bard attacking twice. Etcetera. It's more powerful as a reaction than what some people do for their turn's main action, especially at high levels.
Even if it didn't scale like crazy, it would still be awfully powerful to give a character a chance to reaction-attack pretty much every round. The shadow monk gets a significantly more limited version of this feature... at level seventeen.
I'd much rather see Extra Attack added to the class at level five and this feature toned way down than have this be the big-time damage source for the class.

Charge!
Letting the entire party move is a really powerful option. It's somewhat balanced by the rest restriction and the fact that a check is necessary, but I'm not entirely sure it works.

Veteran Strike
This seems reasonable. Comparable to a paladin's Improved Smite. Might actually want to beef it up a little -- maybe take away the 1/turn restriction. I'm a bit leery of allowing the choice of two ability scores -- that isn't usually a thing -- but it's not a huge deal.

Cunning DeterminationI'm assuming you mean Int, Wis, and Cha by "mental saving throws"? Might want to spell that out. Again, I'm not sure I like getting the choice of ability.

Spit, Grit, and Elbow Grease
Okay.

Never Give Up / Never Surrender
By "massive damage," do you mean "instant death" from taking too much damage all at once?
I might suggest making the get-back-up-when-you're-down feature once per long rest, but allow it to restore more HP. Half their HP, maybe?
This feature seems a little difficult to rationalize functioning in a mundane, martial way.

Resourceful Warlord
Observe Weakness gives information on a bonus action that a higher-level Battlemaster needs a minute to puzzle out. I don't think the check makes that fair.
Jack of All Trades is really powerful for a relatively low-level subclass feature.
Resourceful Charge is really good, but I don't think I'd have a problem with it if I were more comfortable with Charge to begin with.
Observe Weakness Improved works for me.

Inspiring Warlord
Words of Insight... removing any one source of disadvantage as much as once every turn is a really big deal. It remains a big deal at high levels, too, when the check would be laughably easy. And I don't know of a good way to make the DC scale without effectively punishing the player for leveling up.
Deflect doesn't seem unbalanced so much as it feels out of place.
Inspiring Platoon seems okay, I guess.
The level 14 feature actually feels better to me than the level 3 feature because it can only be used once per short rest.

Templar
It'd probably be simpler to just use Int or Cha as the casting ability than to make it wisdom and let the Templar use wisdom for other checks.
It seems like you're going for a third-caster warlock-style build here. That's... interesting, but I'm not sure how well it balances. Warlock casting is weird.

I believe 5e typically doesn't spell out when an ability improves but other times does. I like the look of the "dead levels' as it breaks up different sections of the Warlord.

Combat Style: Works with any weapon.

Works with defensive style, defensive style doesn't deal damage.

Depending on how a DM deals with cover of this stacks or not with archery. If you run cover by the book... Yes because that +2 attack will be negated a lot. If you aren't playing with cover rules then no as that +2 is essentially a damage boost.

Coordinated Offensive
Weapons are "Warlord" weapons. This class can use ranged weapons but is geared more to up front in the thick of things type leadership.

Like sneak attack this is just "extra damage" you deal due to Coordinating your attack.

The DPR of this class is about on par with the non-cheesy Rogue which should be fine.

This class's action really isn't that powerful. 2d6 + 5 + 5 + 2 = 19 for damage (not counting feats as the -5/+10 applies to everyone) at high levels. Even then, that +2 isn't garunteed.

I would rather stay away from extra attack. I like the rogue's chassis of Attack + Stipulation Extra Damage + support features. Though technically Coordinated Offensive works as your "extra attack".

I'm thinking about just changing it to 2 to xd10 damage with warlord weapons and have it work more like the rogue's sneak attack but with different stipulations.

Charge!

It is balanced by the fact that sometimes players can't move or don't want to move (in a good spot or self preservation).

It is also balanced by the fact that allies must use their reaction to move, not everyone likes to use their reaction like that. A Paladin would prefer to smite with an OA.

Veteran Strike as 1/turn works because the Warlord gains 1 attack on their turn. If they are fighting alone, which they should never be, and get to attack off turn (OA) the Warlord can add it to their OA.

The choice between the two comes down to there being two types of warlords. It wouldn't really be fair If someone wants to make an Int-lord and be forever into using Cha for features. The Warlord is already a bit MAD.

Cunning Determination
Yup! I'll change that up.

Never Give Up (Never Surrender)
I debated long rest versus short rest, long rest could work better.

Resourceful Warlord

The battlemaster fighter is the problem, they gain an ability that takes too long and is too high of level. This gives different information and is worth not forgetting. I've seen way too many Battlemasters forget they have that feature.

Jack of All Trades: The Warlord get a this ability 4 levels after a Bard. The Bard learns Expertise 2 levels after the Rogue. The Bard (lore) also gain Magical Secrets at 6 (and can take higher level spells from the ranger/Paladins list before they can). This kind of poaching happens with classes like this. JoaT is great, but nothing broken. If there is a good alternative I'll look into it.

Inspiring Warlord

Words of Insight
It removes one source of disadvantage for weapon attacks from an ally. If an ally is prone and blinded and makes a bow attack then they would still take disadvantage on the attack roll.

There are plenty of abilities that give advantage which does the same thing of negating a source of disadvantage . The rogue has a subclass that can BA help action at a range of 30'. Casters and ritual casters gain a Familiar that can be used as a free way to get advantage.

Words of Insight is weaker than those abilities as it doesn't grant advantage. However, WoI grows at a later level to include more people.

Between it not giving advantage, works in one source at a time, and working only for weapon attacks I can't see how this is unbalanced.

I do need to stipulate that this applies to one attack if I haven't all ready.

Deflect
This is about inspiring your allies through doing something awesome. Arrow coming for the Warlord? Pshaw. It may give no mechanical nellbenefit to the characters but the players Will be glad their warlord didn't get hurt and you can role play the scenario in a cool way "I split the arrow down the center" type of stuff.

Templar

I wanted a wisdom based warlord that uses spells. This grants more player customization. You can now have three warlords in a party that all play differently.

Balance wise... It should be fine as the cleric, warlock, and other melee + casters will have more spells/spell features and you only get 2 spell slots (plus 1 redo) but some nifty spells so I guess it won't be a problem.


****

Thanks for your input, I'll be correcting a few things and rethinking a few areas :)