OOTS #470 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[sklar dansig]

funny thing about the title, haley doesnt have quiver :smallsmile:

[Quezovercoatl]

*snif* Ahhh. That fresh comic smell.

[Dagoth]

Awesome battle sequence!

Rogues rule! :smallbiggrin:

[Maatogaeoth]

Awesome to see Belkar speechless. Of course, even his "speechless" requires some talking... :smallbiggrin:

[Drascin]

For the second time ever, I agree with Belkar. That was too awesome to ruin with words. Who said rogues couldn't solo a mob? :smalltongue:

[bluewind95]

That was quite a nice way to finish off the hobgoblins.

[Pagz]

heh heh, human corpses.

Once again, great comic giant (makes me wonder how she'd "save a hobgoblin for later" though).

[Uthrac]

Yep. 22. Nice!

[Jacen]

WOW.

I am speechless.

Hmmm... She did shoot 15 with arrows if I am not counting wrong. Then 10 under the tower. It looks like some latecomers arrived. But I think that she was getting overconfident because without that lucky cool shot she had got a few more hits in.

[battleburn]

But why, couldn't they have easily outrun them? Or does this allow them to go back to sneaking again?
Haley is out of arrows and they still have to get to Roy and then the whole way back. And the way back is a lot harder with Roy on their backs.

Oh well. It still was awesome ;-)

[Manga Shoggoth]

Nice shooting. Nice use of available materials too.

Perhaps the hobgoblins need a new tee-shirt: "I killed a PC and all I got was this lousy tower on my head".

[mikeejimbo]

Heh, awesome. I don't exactly get what the title was referring to, though. It looked like she used more than three arrows. I suppose it means that now she only has three left?

[Lavidor]

Nice. I love how she managed to drop a tower with one arrow. That was great.

Edit: Wow, 4 people posted in the time I wrote it.

[Omicroncubed]

GO HALEY!!! Brilliant comic!

[Caractacus]

Superb Haley rockage! Now THAT'S what we like to see. You go, girl! :smallcool:

[mohair_ninja]

Hard to believe that the tower stood still on such a small stone and COINCIDENCIALLY Haley rolled natural 20 when fighting hobgoblins, killing 20 hobgoblins at ONCE. Power of the plot :smallbiggrin:
And Gimli couldn't say "that's only counts as one".
Rich posts strips in the mornings now? (It's afternoon here, so it's even better now for me)

[Miklus]

Go Haley! As nimble as she is stone cold red hot sexy...

[Skippy]

The girl has good throws, definitely!!! Great comic, Giant!!!

[SteveMB]

Never let it be said that Belkar has no respect for anything....

OTOH, the problem is that, after a few more impressive feats of mass carnage, she might have Belkar seriously hitting on her. :smalleek:

[heroe_de_leyenda]

..........

[Alysar]

Sexy bare-bellied goddess of war :smallbiggrin:

[Dalenthas]

Ah Haley showing off her skills as "the world's finest archer". That was freaking sweet.

[Tq3eufiy]

Awesome comic, loved belkar's line -"he he human corpses."

[Moral Wiz]

Nice. well done. Now to return to wishing that SoD would get here sooner.

[Fighteer]

Yeah, thanks for helping, Belkar. Aren't you outside the castle yet? Then again, it's fun to see Haley get her turn to kick some hobgoblin ass.

[Baldknight]

Impressive.
If there's one way to get Belkar's respect it's by killing a lot of sentient beings in a flashy way.

[heroe_de_leyenda]

Sorry about the last post, I can speak now. Awesome.

I Think the title refers to what most archers I know do all the time, they fire arrows like Rambo shoots with his machine gun and they nevere run out of arrows or never keep track of the arrows left.

[nerulean]

Woohoo, go Haley! And you know what, I'd love to see a proper Haley-Belkar team up. That'd be highly entertaining. ;)

[Alysar]

Ah Haley showing off her skills as "the world's finest archer". That was freaking sweet.

For those of you who have not picked up 'On the Origins of PCs' (shame on you), that is a reference to that book.

Four in the series, collect 'em all!

[Robert Paulson]

Hot! The second in a run of awesome strips!

[The Vorpal Tribble]

Hrmmmm, I dunno, while not bad... I just don't get much out of the strips where most of it is just bang, bang, thud, dead unless it has something snappy to it. The shoeless god of war for instance was hilarious, this... needed something extra.

[Torias]

pretty sure the comic title "With Three Arrows Left in the Quiver" refers to how many arrows remaining in Haley's quiver, given that the standard quiver of arrows quoted in the PHB holds 20 arrows.

However, I only count 16 arrows being fired by Haley in this comic... and no arrows fired since they left the others (a time which she surely would have refilled her active quiver).

So maybe there's an arrow being shot I missed? I perhaps she shot sixteen, has one "loaded" ready to shoot and has "Three Arrows Left in the Quiver"?

[battleburn]

pretty sure the comic title "With Three Arrows Left in the Quiver" refers to how many arrows remaining in Haley's quiver, given that the standard quiver of arrows quoted in the PHB holds 20 arrows.

However, I only count 16 arrows being fired by Haley in this comic... and no arrows fired since they left the others (a time which she surely would have refilled her active quiver).

So maybe there's an arrow being shot I missed? I perhaps she shot sixteen, has one "loaded" ready to shoot and has "Three Arrows Left in the Quiver"?

In the second frame of the second page. She loses one arrow because she falls.
I think that is your missing arrow.

I didn't realise it before. But since she still has 3 arrows left. She was speaking of saving the goblin for later.

[JoseB]

Abso-freaking-lutely fantastic comic, Rich. I *loved* it, and found it exciting and engaging.

I'd say that, in the proper circumstances, Haley and her bow are more dangerous than a tank!

[Anthea]

A speechless Belkar withholding his puns? That is really something to remember.

[Swordguy]

Eh, get back to me when she does it all while skateboarding down a flight of stairs on a shield. :smallwink:

(Seriously, I though she was gonna do the "lego-lass" thing to Redcloak's mammoth.)

[Damaris]

Aw, I feel sorry for that last hobgoblin. He looks so shocked.

[Monan]

Haley bringing the realness!!!!

[Wolfie_1066]

wow...i mean wow...go haley! the last panel was GOLD

[Miraqariftsky]

Blooody blasted blazing blighted incredible, Giant!


funny thing about the title, haley doesnt have quiver :smallsmile:

Yeah? Have you ever seen the warrior type characters use sheaths and scabbards or even just weapon harnesses? Do they pull their weapons from Hammerspace?

Do y'all remember the panel just before Miko bisects Shojo? When I first saw that, I was asking myself, "Where'd that sword come from???"

[Vondre]

And once again we are reminded that the hobbo's only strength was in their overwhelming numbers. Pwnt.

[Nightfall]

And THAT is why she's my favorite character!

{{{hugs}}} :haley:

[Fuzzy_Juan]

Uh oh...Elan better watch out...I think Haley has a pair...and I ain't talking about the ones she got fom her momma :smallbiggrin:

[banjo1985]

Haley is pure unadulterated awesome! I agree with Belkar too, that was to good to ruin with words!

[SteveMB]

A speechless Belkar withholding his puns? That is really something to remember.

A speechless Belkar withholding an offensive -- possibly sexist -- remark?

Who are you, and what have you done with the real Belkar?

[NeonRonin]

Dude. That was about the BEST shooting I've seen without a high-powered handgun being involved. Haley rocks. :smallsmile:

[slb]

[...]Haley is out of arrows and they still have to get to Roy and then the whole way back. And the way back is a lot harder with Roy on their backs.

I don't think so. Maybe 3 arrows left in her quiver, but certainly not in her bag of holding :smallbiggrin:

BTW Belkar really has an awful spot rank: I counted 23 Hobgob killed by Haley.

[Nightwalker]

3 in the quiver is for a standard 20 quiver. 17 arrows were used:
Page 1-4: 1
Page 1-5: 2
Page 1-7: 1
Page 1-9: 3
Page 1-11: 1
Page 1-12: 3
Page 2-1: 2
Page 2-2: 2
(One was dropped, and the other didn't get the sound affect, far left side)
Page 2-5&6: 1
Page 2-10: 1

Total 17 arrows

This is for anyone who's having difficulty getting them to add up.

[shakes019]

OTOH, the problem is that, after a few more impressive feats of mass carnage, she might have Belkar seriously hitting on her.
I believe that Haley is already on the Lust side of Belkar's chart.

[Mad Scientist]

Haley is so awesome! I know they're only hobgoblins so she probably doesn't get any xp for killing them, but that rocked!

Also, the whole "if i'd known that I would have saved that last one for later"
So funny! :smallbiggrin:

[Korta]

In Page one, panel five, there are 3 "fft"s... not two. So I assume that either the "lost" arrow or the one without a "fft" on page two panel two doesn't count.

p.s... Haley rocks! How nice to have you back from the voiceless (not that she needed it for most of this one)

[Pepz]

well that would make it incredibly easy for Roy to shut belkar up once and for all :) just enslave a load of hobbos and every time he wants some peace he'd kill a hobbo in a spectacular way :P Sacrificing minions, what problem can't it solve? :P

[ref]

That was awesome. As Haley herself said, "you go, girl!"

[Blaznak]

WOOT! Go Haley! That was a pretty nifty display of archery... I especially liked using the terrain (turret) as a weapon. Very nice.

Belkar, speechless? Yikes! That, however, just can't be! ...


Later...

[SteveMB]

I believe that Haley is already on the Lust side of Belkar's chart.

Well, yes, but his attention isn't particularly focused on her. A few heart-warming (if you're Belkar) displays of impressive carnage might change that.

[Bendal]

There are plenty of arrows outside the walls; Haley can easily replenish her quiver by picking them up prior to getting Roy's body. Belkar can fight outside the walls too if necessary (although they'll have to drop Roy to do it).

Good shootin', Haley! Lots of 1-3 hp hobgoblins out there!

[Pantler]

I love Belkar's line.

Plus, I love the low-dialogue-budget pure-action strips :biggrin:

[Kesnit]

I loved how :haley: did the backflip and came out shooting.

[Zhrec]

First time ever Belkar is speachless. Well may be second (V's tentacles was kind of impresive). Good comic, very good!!!

he-he humans... Just priceless..

[delguidance]

If Belkar is impressed by flashy killng and If Belkar had scene Xykon's bouncing ball he would have changed sides.

Great comic.

[Thormag]

The work of a genius.
Good job Giant :smallsmile:

[Wikkin]

Nevermind. I count exactly 22 hobgoblins slain. Nice spot, Belkar!

Wik

[Maurog]

All I have to say is, Belkar sucks at math. He counted 22, but Haley killed 25 hobgoblins in that sequence. Also, it makes me wonder... she started the fight knowing she has only 20 arrows. How would she kill the last 2? Bare hands?

[Thanatos 51-50]

Bad-<Censored, even though its obvious>ery.

[Maurog]

I only count 20 hobgoblin kills. Where's the other 1-2? :)

Wik
Panel Kills
04 -- 01
05 -- 03
07 -- 01
09 -- 03
11 -- 01
12 -- 03
13 -- 02
19 -- 10
21 -- 01
--------
Total 25

[RyQ_TMC]

Hey, the only thing that would make that one more dynamic and action-packed would be doing a movie. Great job, indeed.

[atom]

Is it just me or would anyone else want some OGL skill tricks that let rogues do backflip-to-sneak-attack-with-multishot things?

Really, I do not see this comic being possible in D&D world without generous application of rule 0 and/or a lot of homebrew, but the Giant is known for both, so no sweat there :)

[Scutatus]

Perhaps, instead of the running "standing in place" gag, we actually SAW "evasion" in action for a change? That might explain the sumersaulting Xena act. Maybe. Possibly. And then perhaps then the Hobgoblins were just so lowsy at hitting that those "multishots" actually represent several turns?

It's all in the interpretation. As always.

Alternatively, I suggest that the "impossibility" of the scene is the actual joke?

This scene is like a laughably implausible action movie. We know the action sequences are ridicululous and impossible, (Arnie, Stallone, Willis, Diesel, you name them, they're all b****cks) but that hasn't stopped the genre getting even more ridiculous and impossible with each new generation. Realism and plausibility are rarely found in action sequences I'm afraid, or else the action would be over with the first shot, the first sword thrust, the first arrow.

Even the combat in D&D (and most RPg's for that matter) is hardly realistic. In rl, if you are wounded, even once, you are generally out of the fight. An arrow will put you down. A sword wound is debilitating. Fire will have you screaming and (if you survive being burnt) will scar you for life. You don't just shrug damage off like you do in games. I find it interesting how anyone can play D&D and then complain about how "things in OOTS aren't possible".

[Elfanatic]

Dear Legolas,

I'm sorry, my beautifull blonde bowman, but I have found a new love. It helps that she hot, she has kissed a girl once ("Ok, Ok, more than once!" http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0309.html), she has a wonderfull tattoo...oh yeah, and she's female.

Love,
Elfantatic

[Fighteer]

Is it just me or would anyone else want some OGL skill tricks that let rogues do backflip-to-sneak-attack-with-multishot things?

Really, I do not see this comic being possible in D&D world without generous application of rule 0 and/or a lot of homebrew, but the Giant is known for both, so no sweat there :)
Use of the Tumble (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/tumble.htm) skill allows you to maneuver around or through enemies in combat without provoking attacks of opportunity. Haley is taking move actions with single shots, combined with full attacks in alternate rounds. She obviously has the Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot feats, although she should be provoking AoOs from the hobgoblins near her when she shoots them in melee.

[Doug Lampert]

All I have to say is, Belkar sucks at math. He counted 22, but Haley killed 25 hobgoblins in that sequence. Also, it makes me wonder... she started the fight knowing she has only 20 arrows. How would she kill the last 2? Bare hands?Level 13 Rogue, Level 1 Warrior Hobgoblins.

Assuming she's the only high level Rogue in existance that DOESN'T have a concealed dagger or sap somewhere then: Unarmed strike is finessable so Haley hits with a +13 or better, drops to +9 if she choses to do lethal damage. They get an attack of opportunity when she attacks. She gets 2 attacks per round. She does 1d3+Strength modifier damage, assuming she doesn't have some way to render them flat footed and add that extra 7d6 of rogue goodness or use an improvised weapon to improve her damage and avoid the AoO.

Hobgoblin's average 4 HP and about 15 AC. So her primary attack hits on a 2 if she is just knocking them out, and her secondary attack hits on a 7. She can knock out or kill two goblins in about 3 rounds with her bare hands ASSUMING that she has not a single feat, skill, special ability, or item to help do so.

Heck, she actually does better to take the penalties for Two Weapon Fighting WITHOUT the feat and attack with both hands, it's only -4/-8 given that unarmed is light so she'd attack at +9/+4/+5 and average over one hobgoblin a round knocked out!

Assuming that the goblins do actually manage to hit her, which isn't a sure thing by any means. Then she takes about 6 damage per hit out of her probable 61+ HP.

There's a REASON those Hobgoblins aren't worth any XP except for roleplaying awards to Haley and that the GM let her kill a bunch with a falling tower rather than playing it all out.

[screwtape]

Bollocks.

I'm sick of the oots getting by on dumb luck. First, V is saved from a certain and richly deserved death by a zombie dragon head falling on the death knight. Now Haley is saved by a fumbled shot knocking down a tower. It is cheap and screams of a railroading DM.

It is as bad as when the Enterprise escapes from some problem by varying the frequency of some nonsense techno-babble device.

I am so disappointed.

[Scutatus]

Bollocks.

I'm sick of the oots getting by on dumb luck. First, V is saved from a certain and richly deserved death by a zombie dragon head falling on the death knight. Now Haley is saved by a fumbled shot knocking down a tower. It is cheap and screams of a railroading DM.

It is as bad as when the Enterprise escapes from some problem by varying the frequency of some nonsense techno-babble device.

I am so disappointed.

Fumbled shot? Or "worked out the rebound angles perfectly with her amazing skill"?

Yes, I know it's impossible but in OOTS that has always been part of the joke.

[Fabio_MP]

^______^

go Haley go!

[SPoD]

Bollocks.

I'm sick of the oots getting by on dumb luck. First, V is saved from a certain and richly deserved death by a zombie dragon head falling on the death knight. Now Haley is saved by a fumbled shot knocking down a tower. It is cheap and screams of a railroading DM.

It is as bad as when the Enterprise escapes from some problem by varying the frequency of some nonsense techno-babble device.

I am so disappointed.

Uh, it's not a fumble. She shot the stone that was holding the tower up, and it fell. She's looking at the tower in panel 16, shoots up and away from the hobgoblins in panel 17. It was a deliberate act on her part, no doubt.

Not that it matters, because I'm guessing you just enjoy hating the characters and complaining about when they succeed, since you feel that V's death would have been "richly deserved".

[Monan]

3 in the quiver is for a standard 20 quiver. 17 arrows were used:
Page 1-4: 1
Page 1-5: 2
Page 1-7: 1
Page 1-9: 3
Page 1-11: 1
Page 1-12: 3
Page 2-1: 2
Page 2-2: 2
(One was dropped, and the other didn't get the sound affect, far left side)
Page 2-5&6: 1
Page 2-10: 1

Total 17 arrows

This is for anyone who's having difficulty getting them to add up.

I love how folks on this site geek it out, including our fav cunning artist/author. Makes me proud to be a geek! BTW thanks for explaining.

[Doug Lampert]

Bollocks.

I'm sick of the oots getting by on dumb luck. First, V is saved from a certain and richly deserved death by a zombie dragon head falling on the death knight. Now Haley is saved by a fumbled shot knocking down a tower. It is cheap and screams of a railroading DM.

It is as bad as when the Enterprise escapes from some problem by varying the frequency of some nonsense techno-babble device.

I am so disappointed.Level 13 Rogue, 25 level 1 Warriors. The only way Haley can lose this fight is if she accidently falls asleep from boredom in the middle of it and they coup-de-grace her. And even THEN she might make her save, wake up, and kill them all with her toenail clipers.

Really people, she's showing off with trick shots and tumbling through them because she CAN. The fight's a forgone conclusion, they probably need a 20 to hit her, she needs a 1 to miss them, their hits can't really hurt her, her hits are single shot kills.

That's how the game WORKS if you put level 1 NPC warriors up against level 13 PCs.

[Ezlo]

Good comic. Now hopefully Belkar and Haley can get to a good hiding spot before reinforcements come.

[Elfanatic]

Bollocks.

I'm sick of the oots getting by on dumb luck. First, V is saved from a certain and richly deserved death by a zombie dragon head falling on the death knight. Now Haley is saved by a fumbled shot knocking down a tower. It is cheap and screams of a railroading DM.

It is as bad as when the Enterprise escapes from some problem by varying the frequency of some nonsense techno-babble device.

I am so disappointed.

You're RIGHT! Because it makes absolutely no sense that the gods would send competent heroes on a quest to save the entire world and perhaps the gods themselves, or that they would help with a invisible god-finger once in a while to save the heroes hides. ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE AT ALL!

For those in need of a nap, that's sarcasm.

[xyzchyx]

Panel Kills
04 -- 01
05 -- 03
07 -- 01
09 -- 03
11 -- 01
12 -- 03
13 -- 02
19 -- 10
21 -- 01
--------
Total 25
Actually I count 24. I realize that panel 19 shows 10 dead goblins, but I think she only killed 9 and one of those was dead from a previous panel, because in panel 16 there are exactly 10 goblins left pursuing.

Now as for why the already dead goblin was not visible in panel 16, I can only speculate.. maybe the big boulder that was on the ground got moved a bit when the tower top crashed down on it and revealed one behind the debris, but I really don't know and can't say.

Either way, Belkar still can't count.

[Shatteredtower]

Well, if Belkar's not going to do make the crack, I will.

All that little stunt proved is that Haley hits like a girl.

Specifically, Miko.

:smallwink:

[SoulKage]

Long time reader, first time poster. Loved the skill Haley laid down, can't wait to see more! ^^

[Jacen]

3 in the quiver is for a standard 20 quiver. 17 arrows were used:
Page 1-4: 1
Page 1-5: 2
Page 1-7: 1
Page 1-9: 3
Page 1-11: 1
Page 1-12: 3
Page 2-1: 2
Page 2-2: 2
(One was dropped, and the other didn't get the sound affect, far left side)
Page 2-5&6: 1
Page 2-10: 1

Total 17 arrows

This is for anyone who's having difficulty getting them to add up.

Damn it. I was counting and counting and got only 16 (1, 3, 1, 3, 1, 3, 2, 1, 1) but yes, there were that one arrow lost you noticed. But there were 16 arrows shot and all had a line and sound effect. In 1-5 there are 3 arrows shot with sound and flylines.

[Ampersand]

Bollocks.

I'm sick of the oots getting by on dumb luck. First, V is saved from a certain and richly deserved death by a zombie dragon head falling on the death knight. Now Haley is saved by a fumbled shot knocking down a tower. It is cheap and screams of a railroading DM.

It is as bad as when the Enterprise escapes from some problem by varying the frequency of some nonsense techno-babble device.

I am so disappointed.

I completely agree. There's nothing really dramatically satisfying about these miraculous near-escapes they keep having. Seems that every time they get into a situation where they'd actually have to do something other than brute-force their way through it or even get a little creative there's a convenient falling object to take care of the problem for them. (And no, Haley's use of the tower here doesn't count as "creativity," it's just the Plot Wagon running over the hobgoblins. Creativity requires a certain amount of plausibility, after all)


Level 13 Rogue, 25 level 1 Warriors. The only way Haley can lose this fight is if she accidently falls asleep from boredom in the middle of it and they coup-de-grace her. And even THEN she might make her save, wake up, and kill them all with her toenail clipers.

If that was the case, why have her run at all? If there's no danger, what's the point of sending the hobgoblins after her?


You're RIGHT! Because it makes absolutely no sense that the gods would send competent heroes on a quest to save the entire world...

First, the gods didn't send anyone on any quest. They don't even seem to care about it.

Second, miracle exceptions and the plot literally having to constantly bend over backwards in order to save the protagonists does not competent heroes make. Quite the opposite, in fact. You could argue the "incompetent heroes" angle like early in the strip, I suppose, but they do have to, ya'know, fail once in a while for that label to apply...

[Bluefin]

Wow... the enemy needs to get something else besides hobgoblins in the city here.

And what a smackdown. Makes you wonder why they ever run at all.

[Matherdon]

Go rapid shot!!111

24 dead Hobbgibz, 16 arrows shot (1 of them is retrievable), one wrecked towerturret and one speechless Belkie. U go girl!!

[Aston]

Too damn cool....

[Haruspex]

Not sure what the problem is. Those were likely low-level hobgobs and Haley's clearly focused in archery. She probably didn't need any 20s at all, though the hobgobs might have. The stone that she hit to knock down the piece of tower wasn't even that far away. Within one range increment of her longbow I'd say.

Good to see her rack up the kills though. Heh, heh. Rack.

EDIT: Also, she copped a few hits, so I don't see the unlikeliness of this whether in story terms, probability terms, or DND rule terms.

[Adeptus]

That was some red hot kung-fu movie archery. Haley for the win!

[lemmor]

She kicks ass!!!

[Ampersand]

Not sure what the problem is.

The problem is, largely, that there's no sense of danger or accomplishment. "OMG, V is cornered by a death knight and out of spells! How will sh...oh, wait, a dragon head randomly fell on the death knight. Nevermind." "OMG, Haley is being chased by a horde of hobgoblins! How will sh...oh, wait, there was a conveniently placed tower fragment that she shot onto the hobgoblins against all probability and inertial properties. Nevermind." "OMG, Roy is dead! How will the Oot...oh, wait, he'll just be raised tomorrow after the battle. Nevermind."

A sense of danger is necessary for dramatic tension, and accomplishment for character development and just establishing that yes, we should be rooting for these people. Having random factors like falling dragon heads and conveniently placed masonry consistently be the deciding factor kills both. It's like playing a video game on god mode...yeah, it's fun to start with, but it gets boring very quickly.

By an amazing coincidence, I also don't like action movies (since this strip was compared favorably to them above) and tend to get bored of D&D campaigns around mid-level or so unless it's helmed by a very good GM.

[heroe_de_leyenda]

3 in the quiver is for a standard 20 quiver. 17 arrows were used:
Page 1-4: 1
Page 1-5: 2
Page 1-7: 1
Page 1-9: 3
Page 1-11: 1
Page 1-12: 3
Page 2-1: 2
Page 2-2: 2
(One was dropped, and the other didn't get the sound affect, far left side)
Page 2-5&6: 1
Page 2-10: 1

Total 17 arrows

This is for anyone who's having difficulty getting them to add up.

If you look colsely, there are 3 arrows shot in panel 5 (page 1)
The one at the far left side on Page 2-2, was shot on Page 2-1, but the hobbo was moved by Haley when she almost fell from the piece of wall she's standing on. Thus, they're still 17 arrows shot, three left.

So we would have something like this

Page 1-4: 1
Page 1-5: 3
Page 1-7: 1
Page 1-9: 3
Page 1-11: 1
Page 1-12: 3
Page 2-1: 2
Page 2-2: 1
Page 2-5&6: 1
Page 2-10: 1

Total 17 arrows

[Imrahil]

Much like Belkar, this was almost too good for words, but hot damn! Haley has now become another reason why I love redheads.

[Smoke_Rulz]

Most definitely quite awesome. Haley needs to kick ass more often.

[Haruspex]

A sense of danger is necessary for dramatic tension, and accomplishment for character development and just establishing that yes, we should be rooting for these people. Having random factors like falling dragon heads and conveniently placed masonry consistently be the deciding factor kills both. It's like playing a video game on god mode...yeah, it's fun to start with, but it gets boring very quickly.

Bit of tension here, a walkover there, sprinkle in some comedy, deus ex machina once in a while, OOTs tends to go all over the place. When you have an army of rabid speculators chewing up forum space, it pays to mix it up and stay unpredictable.

[Kilbia]

Here's how I saw it happening:

Haley's player: "Fine. We need to kill these things so we can get back to sneaking and hiding, assuming Bum-chorfer over there doesn't decide to cause yet another scene. I attack."

GM: <looks at Haley's stats, looks at where Redcloak and Xykon are in relation to Haley and Belkar, decides there's no way in heck they'd even NOTICE what's going on, and just spins some hyperbolically cinematic scene to reflect Haley's inevitable success in the matter>

[SteveMB]

If that was the case, why have her run at all?

To avoid getting swarmed by so many they could win by sheer numbers, or to avoid getting killed by dumb luck -- remember O'Chul's speech before the battle?

[Belkar Rocks]

I am soooo disappointed in this comic.

I wanted to see the "Sexy Shoeless God Of War" again!! :smallannoyed:

But Haley kicking ass is OK, too, I guess. :smallsmile:

[Green Bean]

For once, Belkar and I are in agreement. That was sweet! :smallcool:

[Pvednes]

That Legolas dude has *nothing* on Haley.

[comicadv]

I liked it but I think it was cool when belkar killed all of the hobgoblins.

But that's just me...

[factotum]

Don't see much of a problem here. Haley pwned the hobboes just as you would expect her to. Now, if she'd pulled that trick with the tower in order to kill a hundred opponents, or dropped it on top of Xykon and Redcloak--e.g. used it to win a battle she might not otherwise be able to--I would understand the complaints, but in this instance, there never was going to be a way Haley would lose this.

[Shawnis]

heh heh, human corpses.

Once again, great comic giant (makes me wonder how she'd "save a hobgoblin for later" though).

Well she did say she has "7 ranks in 'use rope'"

[Krytha]

Well she did say she has "7 ranks in 'use rope'"

That's 8 ranks in use rope. Lugging Roy back is going to be tough... especially if she has to carry him and the little twerp.

[pirateshow]

Yeah? Have you ever seen the warrior type characters use sheaths and scabbards or even just weapon harnesses? Do they pull their weapons from Hammerspace?

Yes, accessed through a rift in Hammerspacetime.

(also: great comic!)

[Thimble]

Good to see Haley rocking on. But remember the treasury, lass! Remember the gold, sitting sweetly in the treasury, begging to be rescued from those mean ol' hobgoblins!

[Tola]

Impressive work.

She has Elven blood in her, that's for sure.

[drKarling]

*fft!*

*fft!* *fft!* *fft!* etc...

Where's the *twang*, *aargh*, *slurpt* and so on?
Was the sound effects guy hung over again?

Yeah, yeah, I know there was a *dink* and *CRUNCH!!* too, but...

Anyways, how big hands do Haley have?
Belkar doesn't have long enough hair to be held like that. And its not like he has ears.

[SPoD]

I love when people complain because the characters get out of situations "too easily". It makes no damn sense. Hey, here's a thought: The author decided how many hobgoblins were in the scene to begin with! It's not like he was going to kill Haley here because he didn't want to offend anyone's sensibilities. It was a fun way to change things up instead of just having an entire two pages of Haley shooting hobgoblins in the face, but I guess some people would rather have, "boring but plausible" over "interesting, if unrealistic." Me, give me interesting any day, I don't care how implausible it is.

And I am so sick of people harping on that dragon's head thing. Geez, it was a punchline, people, part of comedy? You set up an expectation and then you go in the opposite direction, it's Comedy 101. He only led you to think V was in danger in the first place to set up the joke! He tricked you, and some of you are so upset at the trick that you're trying to pretend it's bad writing, months later.

I will never understand why so many people who seem to hate this comic still read this comic.

[TreesOfDeath]

Not funny, but very cool all the same

[Constantinople]

"With Three Arrows Left in the Quiver"? I assume that's a reference to some sort of pop culture. What would that be, I ask?

[CindyKay]

And after that awesome fighting display, she zings Belkar!
Go, Haley! Go, Haley!

[Helgraf]

Ahh, good old Jagged Alliance: Deadly Games.

Or, as Gus Tarballs said it.

"There were six of them and six rounds in my gun. When I was done, there were still three rounds in the clip."

[Fitzwalrus]

Exellent strip!!

Love the "tink!" sound effect of the restraining rock being shot loose: gotta love those natural 20's! :amused:

[Chronos]

Yes, the members of the Order get very lucky sometimes. They also get very unlucky sometimes. That's the way luck works. If you want to harp on Vaarsuvius beating the Death Knight through draconis ex machina, you might also want to remember that that first Disintegrate actually had a better than 50% chance of killing it in the first place. In other words, the only reason e was in a position to have that good luck was because of bad luck a few rounds before.

[Raiser Blade]

Woot 4th page lol

Where is V? hmmmmm

[Recursive]

So it's probably just lack of coffee on my part...but it wasn't until the third time I read the strip that I caught the three hobgoblins shaking the tower fragment where Haley was perched to make her fall. (Second panel of second page.) At first I'd thought it just gave way under her weight.

After noticing that detail, I like the whole "surgical shot that crushes the bad guys under three tons of masonry" thing a lot better. It plays like classic cinematic one-upsmanship:

"You call that clever manipulation of the battlefield? THIS is clever manipulation of the battlefield!"

[Zienth]

You could argue the "incompetent heroes" angle like early in the strip, I suppose, but they do have to, ya'know, fail once in a while for that label to apply...

Why are Haley and Belkar going outside the city right now? To retrieve the lifeless corpse of their leader?

I think Roy's death qualifies as a "fail once in a while".

As for the comic, Belkar said it all.

Zienth

[Shatteredtower]

The problem is, largely, that there's no sense of danger or accomplishment.If there's got to be a sense of danger and accomplishment in every conflict, a D&D-based comic is almost certainly not for you.


"OMG, V is cornered by a death knight and out of spells! How will sh...oh, wait, a dragon head randomly fell on the death knight. Nevermind."And that would only be a problem if the comic was lower on humour than drama, rather than the other way around.

Besides, if a DM had created this situation within game, said to himself, "You know, the player is hopelessly outclassed and is not in this mess because (s)he screwed things up, so how do I salvage this?" and found a method that was consistent with the way his game had always been played, I'd be more than satisfied with that.

I mean, this is a group that's been sprayed with barbecue sauce and saved by Fruit Pie the Sorcerer. One of their enemies uses bouncing balls to annihilate paladins by the score, another cheats on the elemental rules, and a fourth has a discount card with ACME. Heads falling from the sky to set up an ironic comment and save one of two doomed PCs aren't a problem.


"OMG, Haley is being chased by a horde of hobgoblins! How will sh...oh, wait, there was a conveniently placed tower fragment that she shot onto the hobgoblins against all probability and inertial properties. Nevermind."Ampersand, this "all probability and inertial properties," argument is worth less than the paper it's written on. Think: last strip, Belkar and Haley were completely uninjured by a fireball that went off in their faces.

Roy survived having a rhino fall on him from at least a 10 ft height. For that matter, the rhino survived falling on him without any apparent injury -- and a creature that size would almost certainly be killed by such an event.

I mean, come on... Xykon was riding a zombie dragon, a creature that by its very nature moves in a lurching fashion -- and it was not only flying, but able to attack without falling from the sky. (Even by the rules, it's pretty hard for a flying zombie to attack and fly in the same round. The only way to do it is with a flying charge.)

Within this world, any argument that relies on statements such as "all probability and inertial properties," is absurd.

Besides, if you look at the strip, the hobgoblins gave her the clue by pulling her terrain out from under her in the first place. Now strictly by the rules of the game, Haley would have been hard-pressed to make that work: stone's hardness allows it to ignore the first 8 points of damage from any attack, and ranged weapons do half damage before that reduction is applied.

Of course, that didn't stop Roy from pulling more than one animal at a time from a bag of tricks (or drawing a rhino, found only in the tan bag, from what had otherwise performed as a grey one), or Durkon using control weather to create a sonic attack (damned impressive, but when's the last time you heard of someone getting killed by thunder?), or Nale, Belkar, and Roy all performing numerous acts of decapitation.

Then again, if the DM feels it would be entertaining and help the game move, great. He wants to allow a ranged bull rush against one of the supports for a precariously balanced structure, sounds fine to me. It's certainly preferable to leaving all of the other players hanging while you play out a solo combat that the PC is almost certain to win eventually. Wrap it up quick, make it look cool by your party's standards of cool, and move on.

Yes, it's fan service. Good thing, too, considering how wound up some fans have gotten in the past few weeks. Some of them need a break.


""OMG, Roy is dead! How will the Oot...oh, wait, he'll just be raised tomorrow after the battle. Nevermind."Provided the OotS: a) survives, b) is able to recover the body, and c) is able to pull together the necessary loot.

That's not necessarily as easy as it may seem, when you recall that it took Roy close to 200 strips to get his sword fixed.

Dramatic tension is useful, but it does not sustain the audience of a three-strips-a-week humour comic for very long, especially not one that has always favoured the humour. The risk of things drifting away from that has been considerable over the last 70 strips, when you review what's happened.

[Zak3056]

Hmmm... She did shoot 15 with arrows if I am not counting wrong. Then 10 under the tower. It looks like some latecomers arrived. But I think that she was getting overconfident because without that lucky cool shot she had got a few more hits in.

I know what you're thinking--did she shoot 15 arrows, or 20? Well, to tell you the truth, in all this excitement, I kind of lost track myself. But seeing as how that appears to be an enchanted darkwood shortbow, the most powerful shortbow in the world, and would blow your head clean off, you've got to ask yourself a question: Do I feel lucky?

Well, do ya... punk? :smallbiggrin:

[Shatteredtower]

Ah, a Dirty Harry reference. Well played.

[Snipers_Promise]

Pure Awsome.

[galdon]

read a few pages and didnt see anyone else mention it. When haley asked about the number of hobgoblins, and the answer was near 20. haley can kill them in 1 shot apparently, remmember her talk with the general, 'no matter how high your defence is, one in twenty swings will always hit so say it takes 4 turns to kill a hobgoblin, for every 4 you kill you will get stabbed once'

at least thats what it reminds me of anyway

[mockingbyrd7]

WOW.

I am speechless.

Hmmm... She did shoot 15 with arrows if I am not counting wrong. Then 10 under the tower. It looks like some latecomers arrived. But I think that she was getting overconfident because without that lucky cool shot she had got a few more hits in.

Belkar has such a bad "Spot" I'm surprised he didn't say there were six.

Anyways, that was a FANTASTIC comic. Pure genius. Although, I thought on the end Haley was going to do something like, "I AM A SEXY RED-HEADED SNEAK-ATTACKING GODDESS OF WAR!" or something.

[mockingbyrd7]

I know what you're thinking--did she shoot 15 arrows, or 20? Well, to tell you the truth, in all this excitement, I kind of lost track myself. But seeing as how that appears to be an enchanted darkwood shortbow, the most powerful shortbow in the world, and would blow your head clean off, you've got to ask yourself a question: Do I feel lucky?

Well, do ya... punk? :smallbiggrin:

ROFL!!!!!!!! Dirty Harry!

[shylocxs]

Well, if Belkar isn't going to supply the sexist remarks, then I will!

Chicks with guns, sexy....


Chicks with arrows, sexier....


Chicks with the ability to bring down the house....

Priceless.

[teratorn]

Haley's tha man! nuff said.

[shakes019]

I wouldn't say that Haley needed a natural 20 to knock out the stone at the range she had. I would maybe call it a DC 25 or so.

If you're going to object to improbabilities in this comic: Miko kicked the head off a standing hobgoblin, and that head killed the hobbo in front of him. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0461.html)

Seriously, it's called artistic license (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artistic_license).

[Porthos]

Provided the OotS: a) survives, b) is able to recover the body, and c) is able to pull together the necessary loot.

That's not necessarily as easy as it may seem, when you recall that it took Roy close to 200 strips to get his sword fixed.

You know, I'm amazed that people even bring up the Dramatic Tension angle anymore. :smallannoyed: Besides the aforementioned Sword Arc (an excellent example, BTW), let's look at how long it took to resolve Major Plot Points in the comic:

(roughly in order):

Durkon Missing From the Party: 14 strips.
Elan Kidnapping #1: 19 strips.
Vaarsuvius as Lizard: 11 strips.
Order of the Stick as Prisoners: 85 strips (or 24 strips, depending on how technical you want to be about it).
Roy as Woman: 15 strips.
Haley Apashia Arc: 148 friggin strips.
Belkar affected by Mark of Justice: 176 strips (and counting).
Elan Kidnapping #2: 43 strips (depending on if you count the endpoint as #393 or #386).
The Siege of Azure City: 69 strips and counting (and it looks like the OotS are going to lose this one Big Time, BTW).
Roy's Dead: 28 strips and counting.

So to say that Dramatic Tension is constantly resolved immediately isn't really supported by the facts. Yes, sometimes challenges are resolved quickly. Sometimes they take a while. And, yes sometimes, they take freakin forever to resolve. And they're not always resolved in a manner that suits the OotS desires. :smallsmile:

[shaddy_24]

The problem is, largely, that there's no sense of danger or accomplishment. "OMG, V is cornered by a death knight and out of spells! How will sh...oh, wait, a dragon head randomly fell on the death knight. Nevermind." "OMG, Haley is being chased by a horde of hobgoblins! How will sh...oh, wait, there was a conveniently placed tower fragment that she shot onto the hobgoblins against all probability and inertial properties. Nevermind." "OMG, Roy is dead! How will the Oot...oh, wait, he'll just be raised tomorrow after the battle. Nevermind."

A sense of danger is necessary for dramatic tension, and accomplishment for character development and just establishing that yes, we should be rooting for these people. Having random factors like falling dragon heads and conveniently placed masonry consistently be the deciding factor kills both. It's like playing a video game on god mode...yeah, it's fun to start with, but it gets boring very quickly.

By an amazing coincidence, I also don't like action movies (since this strip was compared favorably to them above) and tend to get bored of D&D campaigns around mid-level or so unless it's helmed by a very good GM.

In response to your three examples:
If the dragon head hadn't fallen, V would have died. Simple as that. S/he has no way to hurt the knight with spells or weapons and can't run away. Therefore, V dies.
Haley would have killed the hobgoblins anyway. They are level 1, she is level 13. They can't kill her unless they are rolling all critical hits and she never rolls better than a 1. On a 2 or better she hits, she deals 1d8+who knows how much (probably more than 4), so she almost always does 4 points of damage. The hobgoblin dies. They need a 19 or 20 to hit her. So most of them miss anyway. The falling tower is just a way to make it look cool.
Roy is dead. He was unable to help during this battle when he would have been useful. And if he never returns the order has no real reason to stick together. So any comics too far in the future get really implossible as the Giant searches for reasons for them to stick together.

[starkruzr]

That was, indeed, full of awesome.

Though I highly doubt Haley could actually knock that rock out from under the tower if it was supporting THAT much of the tower's weight.

[CockroachTeaParty]

Heh heh... human corpses.

I love this new Belkar trend.

[Robert Paulson]

That was, indeed, full of awesome.

Though I highly doubt Haley could actually knock that rock out from under the tower if it was supporting THAT much of the tower's weight.

The whole system could have been at (or very close to) static equilibrium.

[DrivinAllNight]

Great Comic, and not much more words needed on its greatness :)

[Dread]

Well, Belkar and Haley sure are a dream team. Belkar's propably thinking "Woah. Haley would propably look good in red leather."

[Adeptus]

I know what you're thinking--did she shoot 15 arrows, or 20? Well, to tell you the truth, in all this excitement, I kind of lost track myself. But seeing as how that appears to be an enchanted darkwood shortbow, the most powerful shortbow in the world, and would blow your head clean off, you've got to ask yourself a question: Do I feel lucky?

Well, do ya... punk? :smallbiggrin:

Not bad. My favorite version is Capt. Vimes in Guards! Guards! holding a swampdragon. The above is good, but you should fix it to say longbow since that is what Haley uses.

[Chronos]

Belkar's propably thinking "Woah. Haley would propably look good in red leather."Nah, Belkar's a man of simpler tastes than that. He's probably thinking "Woah. Haley would probably look good out of red leather.".

[MR.PIXIE]

I love her face in panel 9:smallbiggrin:

[Secris]

At first I was suprised by the fact Belkar was impressed by anything, but... that is exactly how he fights. Jumping around everyone with sharp pointy objects getting forcefully inserted to hobbo eyes, among other things, taking a few hits in the process.

[SteveDJ]

Panel Kills
04 -- 01
05 -- 03
07 -- 01
09 -- 03
11 -- 01
12 -- 03
13 -- 02
19 -- 10
21 -- 01
--------
Total 25


Actually I count 24. I realize that panel 19 shows 10 dead goblins, but I think she only killed 9 and one of those was dead from a previous panel, because in panel 16 there are exactly 10 goblins left pursuing.

Now as for why the already dead goblin was not visible in panel 16, I can only speculate.. maybe the big boulder that was on the ground got moved a bit when the tower top crashed down on it and revealed one behind the debris, but I really don't know and can't say.

Either way, Belkar still can't count.

Actually, the 2 kills claimed in panel 13 I think were already dead from before. They get tossed into the air as those other 3 hobs are picking up and shaking the debris that Haley is standing on, and they try to make her fall.

So, that would leave... exactly 22 kills, just like Belkar counted.

[Euphemism]

I counted 16 fired...

0 0 0
1 3 0
1 0 3
0 1 3
2 * 0
0 1 0
0 - 0
1 0 0

...nevermind. That asterix is where she dropped one. 17. Out of a standard quiver of 20.

[Bendal]

Haley really, really needs to carry a shortsword, a big dagger, or something to use in melee other than her bow. All those A'sOO probably don't mean all that much vs hobgoblins, but against something with a better to hit roll she could find herself in big trouble.

Plus, if she did carry a melee weapon, it would end up being bigger than Belkar's weapons... : )

[galdon]

The problem is, largely, that there's no sense of danger or accomplishment. "OMG, V is cornered by a death knight and out of spells! How will sh...oh, wait, a dragon head randomly fell on the death knight. Nevermind." "OMG, Haley is being chased by a horde of hobgoblins! How will sh...oh, wait, there was a conveniently placed tower fragment that she shot onto the hobgoblins against all probability and inertial properties. Nevermind." "OMG, Roy is dead! How will the Oot...oh, wait, he'll just be raised tomorrow after the battle. Nevermind."

A sense of danger is necessary for dramatic tension, and accomplishment for character development and just establishing that yes, we should be rooting for these people. Having random factors like falling dragon heads and conveniently placed masonry consistently be the deciding factor kills both. It's like playing a video game on god mode...yeah, it's fun to start with, but it gets boring very quickly.

By an amazing coincidence, I also don't like action movies (since this strip was compared favorably to them above) and tend to get bored of D&D campaigns around mid-level or so unless it's helmed by a very good GM.

V was set up like that, specifically for the dragon head to land on the death knight, and make it ironically funny that xycon just said chopping off the head did absolutly nothing useful, when it really saved his allies life.

the same thing can be said about just about any movie or book though, you know that at the end the main charicters will either survive, or sacrifice themselfs to save the world right at the end. so you always know they will have something planned to save thier butts or something will happen to do so.

[Ampersand]

To avoid getting swarmed by so many they could win by sheer numbers, or to avoid getting killed by dumb luck -- remember O'Chul's speech before the battle?

Yeah, I do, but everyone else is assuring me that Haley was in absolutely no danger and could've done 1 point of non-lethal damage to them a round until they died from it and not have had anything to worry about.


I love when people complain because the characters get out of situations "too easily". It makes no damn sense.

Wanting an interesting story, which includes such varied elements as uncertainty as to the outcome, makes no sense? Huh. I never knew that.

That's my complaint...OotS lacks uncertainty. The PCs are powerful enough to brute force their way through almost anything these days, and as we've seen twice now just in the course of the Azure City arc anything they might have some trouble with literally has something fall from the sky and take care of it.



I will never understand why so many people who seem to hate this comic still read this comic.

I will never understand why so many people seem to think the only way you can be a fan is if you put the author on a pedestal from which he can Do No Wrong.

Seriously, do you honestly think I would bother wasting my time to read the comic and write these posts if I hated it? I have better things to do with my time, quite frankly.


If there's got to be a sense of danger and accomplishment in every conflict, a D&D-based comic is almost certainly not for you.

It doesn't have to be every conflict, but there should be some. I can't remember the last time I got the impression that the OotS would actually fail at something...or, if they did, that the stars wouldn't align two seconds later and magically make it all better.

You could argue that they failed to protect Azure City and the gate, but given the circumstances (the overwhelming force sent against the city, the fact that what happened with the gate was entirely NPC-based) I would say that those were plot events they weren't meant to influence anyway, and would have occurred with or without the protagonists' intervention.


Besides, if a DM had created this situation within game, said to himself, "You know, the player is hopelessly outclassed and is not in this mess because (s)he screwed things up, so how do I salvage this?"

I disagree with you there. It was V's fault...she was the one who attempted to solo a Death Knight despite the fact that it obviously outclassed her and she had escape magics available. I believe the term is "let the dice fall where they may."


Ampersand, this "all probability and inertial properties," argument is worth less than the paper it's written on...
Within this world, any argument that relies on statements such as "all probability and inertial properties," is absurd.

All of the examples you cite clearly use magic as their originators and primary driving force, though.


Of course, that didn't stop Roy from pulling more than one animal at a time from a bag of tricks (or drawing a rhino, found only in the tan bag, from what had otherwise performed as a grey one), or Durkon using control weather to create a sonic attack (damned impressive, but when's the last time you heard of someone getting killed by thunder?), or Nale, Belkar, and Roy all performing numerous acts of decapitation.

The only one of those I have a problem with is the control weather, and for precisely the same reason: It was a cheap way to pull the protagonists out of a mess they had gotten themselves into and couldn't find a way out of. As I recall, it was precisely that incident that put me on this path to begin with.

Honestly, I have no problem with stuff done for flavor or as part of a joke. Nale decapitating the chief with one hit is a reasonable approximation of the fact that he can do enough damage in one hit, particularly with sneak attack, to kill the CPPD guy instantly. It's when control weather spells, falling dragon heads and hazardous masonry placement start to become plot points in of themselves that I start to get annoyed. Serendipity once in a while is okay; serendipity all the time is not.

Haley tumbling through the hobgoblins, causing them to accidentally stab each other? Haley shooting a barrel of gun powder (that we saw set up in a previous strip) and pelting the hobgoblins with shrapnel? Haley tossing Belkar off to distract the hobgoblins and then sniping them while they tried to kill the halfling? All of them accomplish the same thing as falling masonry and let Haley look as cool without getting into the it just so happened factor that 470 has in spades. In this case, of course, it just so happened that the battle was being fought underneath several tons of brick and mortar being help up by a tiny rock that coincidentally enough could be moved out of position by an arrow.


Provided the OotS: a) survives, b) is able to recover the body, and c) is able to pull together the necessary loot.

Again, are any of those factors really in question?

[Sturmjaeger]

Go Haley! Belkar was right, that was too awesome.

[David Argall]

Not one of the best, but not bad. Haley has been a weak sister and needs some screen time as the big stud.

Now for some points of contention.

A 13th level is going to smear 25 1st levels who stick to basic tactics of swinging weapons. The numbers are there. [Their best tactic was grapple, which had a good chance of winning, but depending on just how male they were thinking, was either the last thing on their minds, or the 1st thing.] The given case plays fast and loose with the exact rules, but not with the conclusion.

No, this was not that awesome of Haley. Our tricked out fighter archer of her level would pat her on the head and then show her how he can do the same stunt with ogres. [Well, he might be bragging a little, but when you got a hot piece to impress, little things like being beat to a pulp have to be ignored. And if she rescues him by shooting the last ogre, it might work all the better.]

Why grumble about shooting out that rock? The tower itself simply does not have the structural strength to hold together in that situation. It would have fallen into rubble before the fight started.
But you have to admit it looks cool, which trumps realism.

[Tordek]

So, clearly Haley has manyshot, rapid shot, point-blank shot, and some good ranks in jumping and tumbling.

[iabervon]

Yeah, I do, but everyone else is assuring me that Haley was in absolutely no danger and could've done 1 point of non-lethal damage to them a round until they died from it and not have had anything to worry about.

They're in somewhat of a hurry; they've got to get to the docks before the hobbo army decides to sink their boat. If she got totally swarmed, she might be okay, but by the time they fought their way to Roy and back, Hinjo's junk would probably have gone down. And if Durkon goes down on Hinjo's junk while they're waiting for Haley to get back, Roy's not getting raised any time soon.

[Kesnit]

In this case, of course, it just so happened that the battle was being fought underneath several tons of brick and mortar being help up by a tiny rock that coincidentally enough could be moved out of position by an arrow.

What makes you think it was a coincidence? Haley ran away from the hobos for a while before turning to fight. What if she had seen the way the tower was leaning and positioned herself there to take advantage of it?

[Charles Phipps]

I think Hinjo was right, they probably could kill every Hobgoblin in the armies of Red Cloak if they put their minds to it.

;-)

[BoneLord]

:belkar: "Heh heh. Human Corpses."

[Raeden]

I count 24 hobos. Belkar can't count :(

But the comic was awesome.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

HA HA! Another chance for a member of the OotS to shine! I just hope V's okay.

[BoneLord]

(roughly in order):

Durkon Missing From the Party: 14 strips.
Elan Kidnapping #1: 19 strips.
Vaarsuvius as Lizard: 11 strips.
Order of the Stick as Prisoners: 85 strips (or 24 strips, depending on how technical you want to be about it).
Roy as Woman: 15 strips.
Haley Apashia Arc: 148 friggin strips.
Belkar affected by Mark of Justice: 176 strips (and counting).
Elan Kidnapping #2: 43 strips (depending on if you count the endpoint as #393 or #386).
The Siege of Azure City: 69 strips and counting (and it looks like the OotS are going to lose this one Big Time, BTW).
Roy's Dead: 28 strips and counting.

Let's not forget about the minor plot point that V is missing. (S)he was last seen 19 strips ago. :smallwink:

[holywhippet]

Let's not forget about the minor plot point that V is missing. (S)he was last seen 19 strips ago. :smallwink:

I wouldn't say that V is missing as V presumably knows where (s)he is. They were seperated due to battle orders so it's only from the readers perspective that V is missing.


But why, couldn't they have easily outrun them? Or does this allow them to go back to sneaking again?
Haley is out of arrows and they still have to get to Roy and then the whole way back. And the way back is a lot harder with Roy on their backs.

Oh well. It still was awesome ;-)

Haley was presumably slowed down by Belkar so running would just fatigue them. It would also leave the hobgoblins alive to raise the alarm making it harder to get out and harder to get back through them to reach the docks. Dead hobgolbins = no problems as there's no hard evidence that they'd come through. The arrow filled corpses aren't proof since the city was a warzone recently.

[Caractacus]

That's my complaint...OotS lacks uncertainty. The PCs are powerful enough to brute force their way through almost anything these days, and as we've seen twice now just in the course of the Azure City arc anything they might have some trouble with literally has something fall from the sky and take care of it.

It doesn't have to be every conflict, but there should be some. I can't remember the last time I got the impression that the OotS would actually fail at something...or, if they did, that the stars wouldn't align two seconds later and magically make it all better.

Well they DO fail. Roy died.


You could argue that they failed to protect Azure City and the gate, but given the circumstances (the overwhelming force sent against the city, the fact that what happened with the gate was entirely NPC-based) I would say that those were plot events they weren't meant to influence anyway, and would have occurred with or without the protagonists' intervention.

Every single place they tried to protect was lost. I don't understand the special pleading here. If the large numbers sent were author decision and the Oots can't affect it, then it counts. Rich doesn't roll dice (personal opinion), but he likes to have some sort of D20 explanation for what happens - sometimes a bit skewed, sometimes done for fun, or whatever - he had a battle envisioned for the Miko vs Oots battle which he explained in one thread , though no dice were involved. I'll come back to plot points again in a minute.


I disagree with you there. It was V's fault...she was the one who attempted to solo a Death Knight despite the fact that it obviously outclassed her and she had escape magics available. I believe the term is "let the dice fall where they may."

Some believe that the spell had a fair chance of success - so it was bravery. More to the point, this was a classic Oots joke in that it was set up for the Xykon line later, :xykon: "No effect at all". That was its whole purpose. (This was pointed out above, but I felt the need to reiterate). If we go back a hundred strips or two, we find any number of situations where ridiculous things happen. But that's surely what Oots is for: plot plus silliness? It's just that as the plot has got more serious in recent months, perhaps some of us are now expecting a tightening-up of the silliness? That could be true. I don't dispute your right to your opinion, but I feel that the strip is really just remaining true to its roots, and that it just stands out a bit more in the more serious scenes.


The only one of those I have a problem with is the control weather, and for precisely the same reason: It was a cheap way to pull the protagonists out of a mess they had gotten themselves into and couldn't find a way out of. As I recall, it was precisely that incident that put me on this path to begin with.

I really think that this assessment needs discussion. It was a twist of the rules, but then so much of Oots twists game mechanics, physics or is just silly. As I see it, the whole point was to give Durkon some more air time and look cool. It worked for me. It's not as if the Oots were even in a 'mess they had gotten themselves into'. What mess? Couldn't Durkon have just done his Thor trick again and smashed Leeky and the trees? That would have been dull.


Honestly, I have no problem with stuff done for flavor or as part of a joke. Nale decapitating the chief with one hit is a reasonable approximation of the fact that he can do enough damage in one hit, particularly with sneak attack, to kill the CPPD guy instantly. It's when control weather spells, falling dragon heads and hazardous masonry placement start to become plot points in of themselves that I start to get annoyed. Serendipity once in a while is okay; serendipity all the time is not.


We've discussed the others above, but I HAVE to say that this masonry joke wasn't a plot point at all. It was a small event. Not a plot point. The threat to Haley and Belkar wasn't really built up and there was little tension - her injuries were not threatening and didn't appear in large numbers (as they did on Belkar in his Hobgoblin scene) to illustrate accumulating injuries. This Haley strip was for fun.

The whole issue of the plausibility or otherwise is bound up in our expectations. In a low fantasy, high 'gritty-reality' setting, the tower issue would have been totally ridiculous. But I think we have to admit that the Oots characters live in a high fantasy, low 'gritty-reality' world. It has done from the earliest strips. Naturally it wanders back and forth a little, making a fuss over a small often overlooked issue here or there (but also hunting for a toilet as a joke in one) but rarely eating or cleaning clothes and performing other mundane tasks, and then later indulging in teleporting to avoid tedious travel, encountering only one wandering monster per journey, and time-compacting (:haley: "later that evening"). These are all traditional marks of high fantasy where coins and encumbrance matter less than drama and getting to the action.

Yes, if you would like to see Oots move more towards serious drama (not become only that, but move towards it), then this strip might frustrate, but surely it's not unreasonable to expect light, humorous and pretty unrealistic strips to occur occasionally in a series with the pedigree that Oots has? :smallwink:

[Pronounceable]

This is the sort of asskicking I expected to see from Durkon. Now ALL OotS have done acts of extreme coolery except for him (Roy's martyrdom, V pwning hordes, Belkar pwning hordes, Elan's lament and now Haley). Admit it, heucuva wasn't that impressive. I really think something BIG should happen at the junk.

And it really wasn't THAT impressing a 13th level character could mop up a mob of CR 1s...

That aside, Haley got spotlight. Wheee! You go girl!

[valis]

Holy S***. I don't think I've seen :haley: kick that much ass before. Green Arrow eat your heart out.

[Mr Horse]

I feel completely cheated that there is no fruit pie sorcerer in real life. I want to eat a living fruit pie. I want to eat it real good. Slurp its sweet juices up as it screams in pain, unable to fathom the sheer horror of being eaten alive. Maybe it will try to throw a spell or two off in my direction, failing miserably as not even the highest concentration skill check could ever take its mind off the feeling of having its delicious flesh ripped and torn asunder, its sugary innards suckled and devoured.

mmm... fruity. i wonder what kind of crust its tender flesh is made of. Rich gram cracker crumble? Or that cheapo crud twinkies are made of? Oh, how I wonder!

but alas, I will never know the joy of eating a fruit pie fighting for its life, because FRUIT PIE SORCERERS DON'T EXIST!!!! :(

THANKS A LOT, BURLEW! :(

I will now lay in my bed and cry, it makes me so sad.









This comment was brought to you by the absurdity of complaining about the lack of realism and dramatic tension in this comic.

[Daemon]

3 in the quiver is for a standard 20 quiver. 17 arrows were used:
Page 1-4: 1
Page 1-5: 2
Page 1-7: 1
Page 1-9: 3
Page 1-11: 1
Page 1-12: 3
Page 2-1: 2
Page 2-2: 2
(One was dropped, and the other didn't get the sound affect, far left side)
Page 2-5&6: 1
Page 2-10: 1

Total 17 arrows

This is for anyone who's having difficulty getting them to add up.

Page 1-5 That's THREE arrows, not 2 (one is going to the gob at the front of the screen)

Page 2-2 That's one arrow (the other corpse with the arrow was flung into the air when the gobs moved the castle rampart part)

So yes, there are 17 arrows, but you just have one of them misplaced!!

[Vreejack]

Roy est mort. Vive la reine!

[Tobimaro]

Haley for the win! And for once Belkar does not get the last word in!

:biggrin:

[Tobrian]

:smalleek: I need an Icon with the expression "Holy Sh...!!"

Action-Haley!!

Whoa... wait, what? Haley has the feat Multi-shot? Haley really is the world's finest archer?! With trick shot action! Up to now I had thought that when she said that to Roy back in Origin of the PCs that she was conning him.


funny thing about the title, haley doesnt have quiver :smallsmile:

It's a quiver that never runs out of arrows, like the one Legolas had when no-one was looking! :smallbiggrin:

Only Haley's quiver is invisible. Because she uses quiver-space. Like all them characters in online games, or in Looking For Group webcomic, where for characters like Cale equipment like his bow, swords, cloak and stuff just pops out of existance when it's not in use. :smallwink:

[Fale]

Great comic. Was this the first time we see Haley in a real battle by herself?

Also there is a minor mistake; in panel eleven, the goblin's leg isn't attached.

[David Argall]

Whoa... wait, what? Haley has the feat Multi-shot? Haley really is the world's finest archer?! With trick shot action! Up to now I had thought that when she said that to Roy back in Origin of the PCs that she was conning him.

She was, and is conning him. Compared to a fighter archer of her level, she is about -6 to hit and damage, and gets 1 less shot. And if the fighter is a really devoted archer, it gets even worse. Not to mention there are likely a few higher level archers around too. [Miko was likely about her equal, but of course was not interested in the bow.]

[DanShive]

Glorious thwumping of Hobgoblins.

I think the entire point was for it to be an over-the-top smack down upon the goblins by Haley. Just flinging arrows would've been fancy, but the whole "knock out a rock to knock over a tower" bit solidified the type of action.

Point being, this wasn't a dramatic "oh no, they're doomed" comic. This was an "absurd, funny action sequence" comic. Doesn't mean it has to be wuvved by all, but they're not all gonna be matters of life and death.

[5tephen]

Just when I thought Hayley couldn't get any sexier.

[johnnyriot999]

I great to see Hayley really shine like that ! :smallamused:

[Bilbo27]

funny thing about the title, haley doesnt have quiver :smallsmile:

Also, Belkar miscounted the hobos, or Rich added 1 extra. There were 23.

[Bilbo27]

Sorry about the last post, I can speak now. Awesome.

I Think the title refers to what most archers I know do all the time, they fire arrows like Rambo shoots with his machine gun and they nevere run out of arrows or never keep track of the arrows left.

To put my two cents in, I always counted my arrows. They aren't that expensive.

[Tobrian]

Haley Apashia Arc: 148 friggin strips.

*cough* A little nitpick:
Aphasia.

Technically, she had Wernicke's aphasia: "Individuals with Wernicke's aphasia may speak in long sentences that have no meaning, add unnecessary words, and even create new "words" (neologisms). (fluent paraphasic symptoms)"



That's my complaint...OotS lacks uncertainty. The PCs are powerful enough to brute force their way through almost anything these days, and as we've seen twice now just in the course of the Azure City arc anything they might have some trouble with literally has something fall from the sky and take care of it.

Okay... further down you complain that V attempted to take on a Death Knight who "outclassed" him/her. So you complain that they're too powerful, then you complain when they take on an enemy that is more powerful than them and fail.


I will never understand why so many people seem to think the only way you can be a fan is if you put the author on a pedestal from which he can Do No Wrong.

Seriously, do you honestly think I would bother wasting my time to read the comic and write these posts if I hated it? I have better things to do with my time, quite frankly.

I'm not so sure. I've met many people (myself included occasionally, especially when it comes to godawfully bad fanfiction or bad fantasy RPG chats) who absolutely thrive on complaining about and picking at something they hate, especially if they liked it at some time in their life. They keep picking at perceived bad points like someone picks at a scap, because they derive grim satisfaction from the feeling that they've found a weak spot in the structure and can, nay must, show it to everyone to enlighten them.




It doesn't have to be every conflict, but there should be some. I can't remember the last time I got the impression that the OotS would actually fail at something...or, if they did, that the stars wouldn't align two seconds later and magically make it all better.

You could argue that they failed to protect Azure City and the gate, but given the circumstances (the overwhelming force sent against the city, the fact that what happened with the gate was entirely NPC-based) I would say that those were plot events they weren't meant to influence anyway, and would have occurred with or without the protagonists' intervention.

Um, Roy died? He failed to stop Xykon?
Keep in mind please that the protagonists are D&D heroes. They're not meant to fail as long as they come up against challanges that are not completely out of their range; the game system itself is carefully arranged in their favour. The webcomic just reflects this. In D&D, combat, death and similar have the deep dramatic impact of a wet paperbag. There are far "grittier" RPG systems.

Everytime something happens in OotS, I just know that one quarter of the readers will complain that X could never have happened under the rules of the game system and then grimly try to prove that even with an natural 20 it should have been impossible blablabla (as if they expect the author to roll dice for the outcome of every b attle round and if he rolls badly rewrite the scene accordingly)... while another quarter of the readers will complain that X was totally "unrealistic" or narratively convenient and could never have happened like that in real life and they want everything to be "gritty" (as if they expect the author to roll a percentage everytime someone is shot and if he rolls badly shrug and say, "Too bad, the main protagonist died by slipping on soap in the shower early in Act II, it's not my fault, many people in real life die in simple household accidents, now this story is over.").


(snip) It was V's fault...she was the one who attempted to solo a Death Knight despite the fact that it obviously outclassed her and she had escape magics available. I believe the term is "let the dice fall where they may."

Why this veiled aggression towards Vaarsuvius? You sound like a player who complains that another player should have gotten "what was coming to her" and the only reason her character survived was, in your perception, that the DM played favorites and intervened with a deus ex machina.

Cool off. Vaarsuvius is not a PC controlled by an overconfident player. He (or she) is a fictional character in a story, controlled by the author. That author got V into that spot of trouble, and then he got V out of it again. By a "deus ex machina" that happened as dramatic irony to Xykon's remarks about Roy cutting off the undead dragon's head.

I can understand your complaints that you think the author is resorting to too many dei ex machina to move the plot along or to keep the characters alive, which is lazy storytelling. And that's your prerogative. Just think of it another way: My husband just came back from the movie theatre where he watched Die Hard 4.0... and the protagonist survived. All those action movie characters survive impossible odds regularly, or succeed because some minor NPC left a door open or something. Of course the trick for the script writers is to not make it too obvious.

Terry Pratchett was a clever man when he got the idea of simply building things like "narrative causality" and "narraive imperative" into the very fabric of his Discworld as natural laws. Desperate last chances of 1: 1 Million happen there 9 times out of 10... except when a character thinks he can outsmart the Lady Luck.


The only one of those I have a problem with is the control weather, and for precisely the same reason: It was a cheap way to pull the protagonists out of a mess they had gotten themselves into and couldn't find a way out of. As I recall, it was precisely that incident that put me on this path to begin with.

Again, you act as if the OotS are characters by players sitting around a table and expecting the DM to bail them out when the ship is sinking.

Whereas when some "NPC" does something that moves the plot into a clearly pre-ordained direction, you're fine with it and don't think it's too convenient for the author or too heavyhanded because it's an NPC? Er, ok. :smallconfused:


Honestly, I have no problem with stuff done for flavor or as part of a joke. Nale decapitating the chief with one hit is a reasonable approximation of the fact that he can do enough damage in one hit, particularly with sneak attack, to kill the CPPD guy instantly. It's when control weather spells, falling dragon heads and hazardous masonry placement start to become plot points in of themselves that I start to get annoyed. Serendipity once in a while is okay; serendipity all the time is not.

Are you sure you're not overestimating the frequency of these " fortunate coincidences" because by now they're all you're looking for and everytime you find one you rejoice and it sticks out so much more than all the rest of the story that happened around it?

"Control Weather" was strip #352.
"Falling silver dragon head" was strip #441.
"Conveniently balanced masonry" was strip #470.

Seriously, when I logged in to the forum, I thought a lot more criticism would be directed towards the fact that under the holy cow of d20 D&D rules, Haley would never have been able to shoot that little rock out from under the fallen tower. Not that the tower was there.

Perhaps the OotS use Hero Points (from Monte Cook's Arcana Unearthed/Arcana Evolved series)? Drama points? Luck Points? Force Points? Whatever you want to call it. SAGA system for Dragonlance (another D&D world) used to have action cards alongside the pen-n-paper rules so that players could from time to time bend the rules and shift luck for their characters, allowing their characters to do one impossible task or have one imcredible coincidence work in their favour when they (or the story, same thing really) needed it.


Haley tumbling through the hobgoblins, causing them to accidentally stab each other? Haley shooting a barrel of gun powder (that we saw set up in a previous strip) and pelting the hobgoblins with shrapnel? Haley tossing Belkar off to distract the hobgoblins and then sniping them while they tried to kill the halfling? All of them accomplish the same thing as falling masonry and let Haley look as cool without getting into the it just so happened factor that 470 has in spades. In this case, of course, it just so happened that the battle was being fought underneath several tons of brick and mortar being help up by a tiny rock that coincidentally enough could be moved out of position by an arrow.

I get what you're saying. But on the other hand in your examples you simply exchange one convenient coincidence for other equally out-of-the-blue things. If the strip had run that way, people would have complained "How come 5 hobgoblins all roll a 1 at once and stab each other?" or "Where did the barrel of gunpowder come from? How convenient that Haley found one just when she needed it AND found a lighted punk, too, to set it off while running past!" or "Haley would never throw Belkar to the wolves, it's against her alignment!" and so on.

The author chose a way to resolve the scene, the idea fell flat for you. It happens.

[Bilbo27]

Fumbled shot? Or "worked out the rebound angles perfectly with her amazing skill"?

Yes, I know it's impossible but in OOTS that has always been part of the joke.

And she does look up at the stone and notice she can take it out with a well aimed shot.

[Eogan]

[anything posted in this thread]

http://www.members.shaw.ca/eogan/emoticons/violin.gif

The really hilarious thing about this comic isn't the fight scene, it's Haley placing Belkar down by his head in panel 3- he's not even on the ground yet by that point!

By the way, the post about Durkon going down on Hinjo's junk was hilarious!

[theinsulabot]

So, clearly Haley has manyshot, rapid shot, point-blank shot, and some good ranks in jumping and tumbling.

you know when haley first mentioned "i'm SO glad i took many shot" it took me for EVER to figure out she had said "many" why? because i nearly fell out of my chair laughing uncomtrollably as i had misread that as :haley: saying "i'm SO glad i took MONEY shot" and i was praying :belkar: was going to make one of the many and varied puns that sprung to mind on :haley: having 8 ranks in use rope and an ability called "money shot"

[Shatteredtower]

The Dan Shive? Cool.


I can't remember the last time I got the impression that the OotS would actually fail at something...or, if they did, that the stars wouldn't align two seconds later and magically make it all better.

You could argue that they failed to protect Azure City and the gate...There is no arguing that point. It was within the Order's power to reach the gate in time to stop Miko. They did not. The resulting explosion could destroyed both Redcloak and Xykon. Both escaped safely. Since they were striving to reach the gate at the time, that counts as a complete and total failure. No matter how you feel about Miko, her death does not make it all better. The death of Xykon and Redcloak would have, but the stars didn't align that way.

That's not all, though. Nale is again loose in the world. Furthermore, he's several laps ahead of the Order right now. How is that going to turn out? Will they kill him this time? Will Thog side with Elan over Nale? Will Haley finally figure out whether Sabine's damage reduction is overcome by silver or cold iron?


...but given the circumstances (the overwhelming force sent against the city, the fact that what happened with the gate was entirely NPC-based) I would say that those were plot events they weren't meant to influence anyway, and would have occurred with or without the protagonists' intervention.Back in strip #284 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0284.html), we see Belkar knocked through an eight storey window by Miko. Here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0447.html), in strip #447, we're shown that the only way Belkar and Miko could have reached that window was either to climb or jump. (And we know it's on the eighth floor because Tsukiko provided Xykon with directions here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0446.html).)

This strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0460.html) reveals that that window is higher than the level of the antimagic cells, and this one (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0264.html) indicates that Belkar is being held somewhere between the antimagic cells and the throne room.

I mention all of this because it shows us one thing: it was within Belkar's power to reach the room in time to stop Miko -- or get killed (take your pick). We've also seen indications that Haley's Climb modifier is quite good, which left only the issue of how to get the bard, cleric, and paladin up the side of the edifice. (No offense to the guards, but this was one of those times it's probably best to let them sit things out.) So there was still a realistic opportunity for the party to contribute to the outcome if either: a) Haley and Belkar had been willing to leave the rest behind, or b) someone had brought a grappling hook and rope.


...It was V's fault...she was the one who attempted to solo a Death Knight despite the fact that it obviously outclassed her and she had escape magics available. I believe the term is "let the dice fall where they may."This (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0440.html) strip says otherwise. Anything before this strip was not V attempting to solo a death knight. The linked strip itself was a clear attempt by V to flee the death knight. Running away was not an option, because death knights don't ever get tired. Elves do.


All of the examples you cite clearly use magic as their originators and primary driving force, though.Nope. Comedy was the primary driving force with Fruit Pie the Sorcerer. Magic had nothing to do with the dragon example, either -- the point had to do with the fact that it ignored the rules (the only way it can attack and move in the same round is to charge, which requires that you travel in a straight line). There was nothing magical about the barbecue sauce either, or the execution of the Chief, or the death of Grand Larceny, so...

Heck, even the rhino is a normal rhino, by the rules.


The only one of those I have a problem with is the control weather, and for precisely the same reason: It was a cheap way to pull the protagonists out of a mess they had gotten themselves into and couldn't find a way out of.Cheap? That scroll cost Durkon 2,275 gp!

But seriously, if you found that a cheap gag, you're readign the wrong strip. That sort of thing has always been and will always be a deliberate part of this series, barring the Giant going all Dave Simm on us.

Do you mind telling me why the party should have known that they'd be facing a character that was specifically designed to shut both of their main spellcasters down, one that had somehow been giving free reign to cast protection from energy no fewer than sixteen times in the middle of a public park? (At least three trees, plus the druid, were rendered immune to acid, cold, electricity, and fire damage. Maybe he even prepped his hawk as well.) Forget suggesting divinations -- you've see Thor's system in action, so you know how bad an idea that would be for an operation like this.


It's when control weather spells, falling dragon heads and hazardous masonry placement start to become plot points in of themselves that I start to get annoyed.None of those were plot points.

The closest things we've seen to a plot point since Miko killed Soon, readjusting the city's entire power structure, have been the deaths of Roy or Miko. Personally, I don't think either of those qualifies either. They do not change the direction of the story.

Learning the history of the gates was a plot point, because it affected how Roy looked at the goals ahead of him. Miko herself may have been a plot point, because his interaction with her solidified his entire view of the team.

But V vs the druid or the death knight was not a plot point. Haley overcoming a small pursuing party? Also not a plot point.


Haley tumbling through the hobgoblins, causing them to accidentally stab each other? Haley shooting a barrel of gun powder (that we saw set up in a previous strip) and pelting the hobgoblins with shrapnel? Haley tossing Belkar off to distract the hobgoblins and then sniping them while they tried to kill the halfling? All of them accomplish the same thing as falling masonry and let Haley look as cool without getting into the it just so happened factor that 470 has in spades.All of them would also have taken considerably longer to draw. Considering the state of the Giant's health of late, I'm pretty happy that he didn't just cut to Haley saying, "Finally! I didn't think I'd ever lose them," in the next strip.


In this case, of course, it just so happened that the battle was being fought underneath several tons of brick and mortar being help up by a tiny rock that coincidentally enough could be moved out of position by an arrow.By this point, Haley had already killed twelve hobgoblins over the course of ten panels. We'd already gotten to see her make use of Tumble and Balance checks to her advantage, by which point it was time for some sort of grand finale. I mean, within game, it would already have been around seven or eight of her soloing hobgoblins, which would probably have been getting a little tedious for her, the DM, and the rest of the players.

(By the way, throwing Belkar to the hobgoblins might not be such a good idea -- firing into melee generally incurs a -4 penalty on the attack rolls.)


Again, are any of those factors really in question?Considering how much I've seen them discussed, debated, and argued for the last few months... yeah. They are. I mean, sure, the Giant knows the final outcome, but we really don't have a clue. A lot of us have expectations, but those aren't the Giant's problem.

This conversation has given me a few things to consider for other games, however, and I appreciate that. Thank you.

[Col. Slime]

Just a (probably) stupid question, But what is the "getting carried" reference Belkar makes? I can't seem to recall the event in question.

[Dr'uun Unnh]

It's probably a reference to Roy carrying Durkon while hastily retreating from hordes of attacking goblins (possibly because Durkon moves slower than the other members of the party). An example of this is in the last panel of strip #90.

[Caledonian]

She was, and is conning him. Compared to a fighter archer of her level, she is about -6 to hit and damage, and gets 1 less shot. And if the fighter is a really devoted archer, it gets even worse.

Fighters don't get Sneak Attack damage, which makes all the difference.

[Jaradcel]

So what feats were those?

Point blank shot, multi shot, shot on the run, aimed shot... anything I miss? :)

Awesome comic and thank God yer feeling better Giant. :)

[David Argall]

Fighters don't get Sneak Attack damage.

And to hear rogue players complain about it, neither do rogues.

An exaggeration to be sure, but there are a very large number of cases where the rogue doesn't get sneak damage, and so you don't want to be a rogue if you want to be a top flight archer. You can be a decent archer with a variety of useful skills to make up for the difference between good and great, but you give Robin Hood ranger or fighter levels.

[Moik]

My apologies if this has already been said but:

:haley: "I AM A SEXY LEATHER-CLAD GODDESS OF WAR!!!"

[Dragon48]

Two words: Haley. Ownage. :D

EDIT: She used 17 arrows if my counting didnt suck.

[Drakron]

I guess 17 is right since if I recall arrows come bundles of 20.

[thatsthespirit]

WOW!

How awesome was that??

[ ] awesome
[ ] so awesome
[ ] no answer*

*rendered speechless because of the awesome

[thatsthespirit]

Also...

Uh... I don't post much, so this may be out of place, but I've been reading the forum a bit and... wow. I love this strip, but apparently a lot of readers don't.

Is it just D&D players, or does everyone these days make a point to tear down other people's creativity while wallowing in a sense of entitlement?

I mean, this wonderful, funny, original, offbeat comic is delivered direct to our homes, three times a week, for free, and yet all some people seem to want to do is nitpick and complain. I could understand the rationale behind an occasional constructive criticism (though the author might not appreciate it) from a fan, but why do people post just to say "not funny" or complain that there's not enough drama?

Does Rich read these things? I hope not, for his sanity's sake.

The strip fluctuates in quality, like all creative endeavors. If you're enjoying it as a whole, why not just sit back and be entertained? I honestly don't want to rain on anyone's parade - I do understand that it's kind of fun to tear stuff apart sometimes, and do it myself on occasion - but can't the belittling stay private, and keep the forums for more thoughtful discussion?

Sorry if this offended anyone, but just kind of wanted to vent my surprise at some of the negativity.

[Terbovus]

hehe, my first post but it seems our psychotic halfling can't count - I made it 25. (posted in the full knowledge that it will spawn loads of posts insisting there were anything from 20-30 hobgobs...)

Absolutely brilliant work Rich - lost hours of work time catching up with it all and religiously keep up. I suggest you put in more contradictions just so those of us who should be working can keep busy arguing about them...

[Edward T. Head]

First post here, so while I'm at it, I'm going to second thatsthespirit. And vote for "rendered speachless because of the awesome."

Now then, let's get back on topic.


And if Durkon goes down on Hinjo's junk while they're waiting for Haley to get back, Roy's not getting raised any time soon.

:belkar: Heh heh. Durkon's going down on Hinjo's junk.

... That's the only reason I registered. Thank you. *bows*

[Vorgen]

Is it just D&D players, or does everyone these days make a point to tear down other people's creativity while wallowing in a sense of entitlement?


Its not just DnD players, its also computer game players. I make a point NOT to read any forums for any computer game that I'm currently enjoying, because after one hour of reading the forums of the latest game that keeps me interested I am informed that it is filled with bugs, unfinished, unplayable, and the worst crap to ever be released as software.

And then I usually lose interest in the game altogether and uninstall it not long after.

It may just be that the entire Internet is populated by whiny bitches. Whatever the real reason, I rarely if ever read forums anymore.

[thatsthespirit]

... That's the only reason I registered. Thank you. *bows*

Best reason to register ever.

[Shatteredtower]

It may just be that the entire Internet is populated by whiny bitches.Does anyone else see the irony of making this sort of observation on a forum? :smallwink:

And let's be clear: Ampersand is being vocal about something found troublesome in the strip, and clear about why it doesn't earn approval. That is not the same as bashing the strip, no matter how thoroughly I disagree with the conclusions or preferences.

To help me keep it in perspective, I review Mr. Burlew's comments (from No Cure about the Paladin Blues) about taking great joy in strip #136, a strip that I personally can't stand. (Nor do I sympathize with his views on polearms, but that's neither here nor there. :smallwink: ) Nor am I a fan of his up a level/down a level "Whose on first?" routine, something I normally love to see adapted, because Belkar's punchline still blows it for me.

However, that doesn't change the fact that: a) Mr. Burlew liked both strips, b) both were popular with a lot of his fanbase, c) I could see why both would be so popular, and d) their popularity with other readers (but not me) was no indicator of how much more sophisticated or intelligent I am than anyone that liked it -- if I may be so arrogant and unfair as to present it that way.

As long as it's about the strip and not other readers or the writer, it's just another exercise in communication and observation. Sometimes it's even a productive one. :smallwink:

[DanShive]

I was forced to read the comic, pay good money to buy the first three books, and to make this stick figure avatar of mine. I DEMAND only the best! DEMAND IT!

That said, it's actually good to see people passionate enough to care as much as they do. They may be complaining, but it's complaining with a slice of WUV.

[Phase42]

Go Haley! Go Haley! It's your birthday! It's your birthday!

She reminds me here of the rogues in Diablo II - no quiver, endless arrows ...

[demona]

i wanna be like :haley: when i grow up :smallbiggrin:

[Rettu Skcollob]

you know when haley first mentioned "i'm SO glad i took many shot" it took me for EVER to figure out she had said "many" why? because i nearly fell out of my chair laughing uncomtrollably as i had misread that as :haley: saying "i'm SO glad i took MONEY shot" and i was praying :belkar: was going to make one of the many and varied puns that sprung to mind on :haley: having 8 ranks in use rope and an ability called "money shot"

Rettu notices that your signature says, "I hated Miko before it was cool", well, Rettu turned on the light before it was cool.

That said; Rettu liked how it pointed out that some archers don't keep track of their arrows, and manage to take out armies with merely three left.

[factotum]

That said; Rettu liked how it pointed out that some archers don't keep track of their arrows, and manage to take out armies with merely three left.

I think you misunderstood that. A standard quiver in D&D has 20 arrows in it, and Haley used 17 during the course of the strip, so she only has 3 arrows left at the END of the strip, not the beginning.

[Alfryd]

New comic is up.
Meh. Not bad.

I just find there are limits to how excited I can get about action scenes with almost no dialogue.

Of course, the upshot of this is that only the both-blind-and-deaf Equal Opportunities squadrons among the hobgoblin army will now be unaware of our heroes'* stealthy(tm) efforts(c) to traverse the battlefield.

*Heroes in this context may refer to psychotic midgets. Consult your cleric before use.


...it was within Belkar's power to reach the room in time to stop Miko -- or get killed (take your pick). We've also seen indications that Haley's Climb modifier is quite good...
Yeah, but... how do you scale the walls without attracting the attentions of several thousand hobgoblins between you and the windows?

...she was the one who attempted to solo a Death Knight despite the fact that it obviously outclassed her and she had escape magics available.
Invisibility?
I've heard it said that, actually, even given the Death Knight's spell resistance, he lucked out vs. Disintegrate and the like. So, V may not have been as overconfident as you suppose.


The only one of those I have a problem with is the control weather, and for precisely the same reason: It was a cheap way to pull the protagonists out of a mess they had gotten themselves into and couldn't find a way out of.

It's when control weather spells, falling dragon heads and hazardous masonry placement start to become plot points in of themselves that I start to get annoyed.
That did bother me somewhat. That, and O-chul's staggeringly slim likelihood of survival.

None of those were plot points.
Maaaybeish. It depends on whether there was some plausible alternative method for overcoming the hazard or obstacle presented.
The Death Knight might have been beaten by other means, or V might simply have cast invisibility and run away a little sooner. Even if the DK survived, so what? The city was overrun in any case, which seemed likely enough once the walls were seriously breached.
Belkar might have suddenly remembered he can deal nonlethal damage against pursuing hobgoblins.
Control weather? I dunno. Maybe if someone had dragged Roy's ass outside, he could take out the trees while Durkon solo'd Leaky.
The obvious example of rule-warping is the Order's firt combat against the Linear Guild, with characters dragged off by lawyers and wotnot, but I tend to forgive that since they were involved in a plan to release impounded 2e creatures, for cripes' sake. This was clearly silly material to begin with. But now, we have a strip with serious body counts among people who don't have green skin and fangs- (which, naturally, is what matters.)

All of the [plausible scenarios] would also have taken considerably longer to draw...
I see no evidence for this.

(By the way, throwing Belkar to the hobgoblins might not be such a good idea -- firing into melee generally incurs a -4 penalty on the attack rolls.)
Not if you don't really care what you hit.


...somehow been giving free reign to cast protection from energy no fewer than sixteen times in the middle of a public park?
Is there some Cliffport law against casting PfE on otherwise innocuous looking trees?

Miko killed Soon...
Shojo.
Will Haley finally figure out whether Sabine's damage reduction is overcome by silver or cold iron?
I find it interesting that Hinjo's sword is cold iron, actually.

[Alfryd]

Seems that every time they get into a situation where they'd actually have to do something other than brute-force their way through it or even get a little creative there's a convenient falling object to take care of the problem for them.
I would just like to take this moment to point out that Miko has never really had this luxury.
Which is why she kicks ass.

By an amazing coincidence, I also don't like action movies (since this strip was compared favorably to them above) and tend to get bored of D&D campaigns around mid-level or so unless it's helmed by a very good GM.
Gosh. Other people are agreeing with me. I don't really know how to deal with that.
Joy, maybe? Help me out here.

[Delgarde]

Whoa... wait, what? Haley has the feat Multi-shot? Haley really is the world's finest archer?! With trick shot action! Up to now I had thought that when she said that to Roy back in Origin of the PCs that she was conning him.

Well, that's what adding a few levels does for you. One of my characters was like that - at level 3 or 4, he was the self-proclaimed finest swordsmen around. By level 14 or 15, it was arguably true.

[Delgarde]

To put my two cents in, I always counted my arrows. They aren't that expensive.

That's exactly why keeping count has always seemed unnecessary to me. The cost of keeping a couple of full quivers is effectively zero, so unless they're simply unobtainable, I always just assumed I'd been buying them whenever getting low.

[16oz]

3 quick notes

1) Someone commented on the lack of twangs by the arrows being fired (forget who, and am too lazy to reread 7 pages of posts). My inner geek demands that I mention that you can buy silencers for bows, something that I would fully expect a rouge like Haley to have.

2) Nice to see the train derailed, but I still have trouble seeing Belkar not causing more trouble en route to the corpse. We can only hope that he remains 'speechless' long enough. And that the vultures haven't eaten the whole body either.

3) What do you people mean, you can't see her quiver? It's right there, right next to the 8 bags of holding that she owns!!! :smalltongue:

[Delgarde]

And to hear rogue players complain about it, neither do rogues.

An exaggeration to be sure, but there are a very large number of cases where the rogue doesn't get sneak damage, and so you don't want to be a rogue if you want to be a top flight archer.

Yeah, sneak attack is called that for a reason - it doesn't work when you're standing out in the open in full view. And archers can't take advantage of flanking allies like melee-focused rogues can - that generally limits their use of sneak attack to the opening round of combat.

[berrew]

That did bother me somewhat. That, and O-chul's staggeringly slim likelihood of survival.I hate to keep harping on this, but I actually chuckled when I read this. O-Chul's survival is *hardly* "staggeringly slim". What was staggeringly slim (and, of course, completely unmentioned) was him landing quietly beside the MiTD. That's staggering irony for you, there.

[squidthingy]

Belkar can't count, he counts 22 hobbos when there are clearly 24?!?
sorry if this has been said before

[squidthingy]

is[/I] the world's finest archer?! With trick shot action! Up to now I had thought that when she said that to Roy back in Origin of the PCs that she was conning him.

You may be skipping to the end but haley has used multi-shot on multiple times, the main time was fighting sabine:

:haley: Ok, think Haley. If she's a demon, she's vulnerable to cold iron. BUT if she's a devil, she's vunerable to silver.

:haley: But which one is it? Which one??

:sabine: I'm gonna drain a level for each time you've called me a skank.

:sabine: Ah, who am I kidding, I'm gonna drain them all anyway.

:sabine: Here I come!

:haley: I'm so glad I took manyshot.

:haley: Eat obsure alchemical metal, fiend-skank!

(comic 62) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0062.html)

[Shatteredtower]

I just find there are limits to how excited I can get about action scenes with almost no dialogue.There's a time for talking, and unless you're Spiderman, there's a time for saving your breath. The comic is often dialogue heavy, and while I enjoy that, I enjoy the fact that it also takes breaks like this.


Of course, the upshot of this is that only the both-blind-and-deaf Equal Opportunities squadrons among the hobgoblin army will now be unaware of our heroes'* stealthy(tm) efforts(c) to traverse the battlefield.Not all that certain. Rubble shifts on its own, even hours of days later. Someone's likely to come check it out, but they'll be investigating the site, which is were Belkar and Haley won't be.


Yeah, but... how do you scale the walls without attracting the attentions of several thousand hobgoblins between you and the windows?Quickly, counting on the fact that they're still distracted. You'll notice that they never paid any attention to the six on the wall before Haley opened fire on their boss.

Besides, trial or no trial, don't you think there'd have been an alarm sounded in the palace if anyone defending the place had noticed Belkar and Miko making their way toward the throne room earlier?


Invisibility?3rd Ed's the first edition in which death knights don't have dispel magic. I don't know if I'd want to haved chanced it the way V's luck had been going. Maybe if the familiar had actually managed to provide the desired diversion, allowing V to first find cover.


Maaaybeish.No, no maybeish about it. The plot did not turn around any of those encounters, and therefore, none of them are plot points.


I see no evidence for this.Yes you do: the ten remaining hobgoblins, the rest of which Haley had been killing at the rate of 1-3 per panel. At best, it would have taken 4 panels to finish them off, and would have been more of the same.

Doesn't sound like it adds much to the scene even for those who like this sort of thing.

The alternative was to come up with new and innovative ways to kill the remaining ten hobgoblins at the rate of 1-3 per panel, requiring more substantial changes of layout than we saw after the hobgoblins knocked Haley over. That's more work for the artist.


INot if you don't really care what you hit.But Haley does. No, not for the reason that there's a risk of hitting Belkar -- for the reason that hitting Belkar means not hitting a hobgoblin. That again leaves us more panels.


Is there some Cliffport law against casting PfE on otherwise innocuous looking trees?And even if there was, was there some reason the Order should have been expected to have foreseen the danger and prepare for it?

[Nenimë]

Yep. 22. Nice!

I counted 24. Who else?
But nevertheless: what a performance!

Haley rulzzz :smallcool:

[Doug Lampert]

That's exactly why keeping count has always seemed unnecessary to me. The cost of keeping a couple of full quivers is effectively zero, so unless they're simply unobtainable, I always just assumed I'd been buying them whenever getting low.

Two characters once separated from the party in my game, and ran into a nasty set of flying monsters with ranged attacks. (6 or so Chimeras IIRC.)

Arrows went flying, so did breath weapons, monsters circle at long range while their weapons recycle. Most arrows miss due to range. Close in again. Full attacks with rapid shot, breath. Circle out, wounded monster flys further off and effectively disengages. Player's notice they are running low on arrows and don't shoot at long range.

It continues, pass after pass, individual monsters disengaging as they are too badly wounded to be fairly sure of surviving the next pass, the players reduced to two shots per pass and obviously lossing badly. No really good top cover visible anywhere as they're in rolling open prairie.

Frantic players search their character sheets looking for ANYTHING else they can use.

"Hey! I've got 2,000 spare arrows in my bag of holding!"
"You've got WHAT!"
"I bought a bunch of spare arrows once, just in case. There are 2,000 in my bag of holding."
"Give me that!"

I think the PCs actually killed one when their fire on the next pass was vastly more effective than expected. The others fleed. XP for all (well both).

Pulling quivers out of the bag of holding takes JUST long enough that it is worth tracking usage. But don't bother me with the replacement cost after a high level battle...

A single used hobgoblin sword sold on the open market pays for well over 100 new arrows. Neither is worth tracking. But weight and tactical problems from running dry during battle ARE worth tracking.

DougL

[Aerysil]

I need to keep track of arrows since we are in the Underdark and there is a disappointing lack of wood down there. My ranger goes through them like water.

[MaxKaladin]

"Hey! I've got 2,000 spare arrows in my bag of holding!"
"You've got WHAT!"
"I bought a bunch of spare arrows once, just in case. There are 2,000 in my bag of holding."
"Give me that!"Heh, my rogue carries a few hundred arrows around in his bag so he won't run out. I still track combat usage for purposes of knowing how many 'ready' arrows he has, but replentishing is just by going to the bag.

And the bag got filled when we took some enemy outpost and I raided the armory. Free arrows! Yay, free arrows!

[Rufio]

Hehe... I wish my rogue could do that! Of course, she is only level one...

[DrivinAllNight]

WOW!

How awesome was that??

[ ] awesome
[ ] so awesome
[ ] no answer*

*rendered speechless because of the awesome

[ ] awesome

so awesome
[ ] no answer

[Alfryd]

O-Chul's survival is *hardly* "staggeringly slim". What was staggeringly slim (and, of course, completely unmentioned) was him landing quietly beside the MiTD. That's staggering irony for you, there.
I won't quibble over whether or not you consider a < 5% chance staggeringly slim. landing next to the MitD goes unmentioned because it's completely irrelevant to any damn thing.

The comic is often dialogue heavy, and while I enjoy that, I enjoy the fact that it also takes breaks like this.
I just don't see why people are declaring blind luck on the part of the protagonists to be awesome.


Quickly, counting on the fact that they're still distracted. You'll notice that they never paid any attention to the six on the wall before Haley opened fire on their boss.
I'll file that under 'ludicrous,' particularly given they would have to descend the tower, walk through the hobgoblins on the ground, and scale the walls of the castle in the process.

The plot did not turn around any of those encounters, and therefore, none of them are plot points.
If the characters happen to die, or be are serious danger of doing so, or, say, are in serious danger of alerting a level 22 Lich sorceror to their presence while trying to retrieve their leader's corpse, I would automatically consider that a plot point.

Yes you do: the ten remaining hobgoblins, the rest of which Haley had been killing at the rate of 1-3 per panel.
So skip a few intervals of killing hobgoblins. You can assume business as usual between panels. It's not like Rich hasn't done so often before.

...hitting Belkar means not hitting a hobgoblin...
That's what you call a 'low percentage scenario.'

[Ampersand]

There is no arguing that point. It was within the Order's power to reach the gate in time to stop Miko. They did not. The resulting explosion could destroyed both Redcloak and Xykon. Both escaped safely. Since they were striving to reach the gate at the time, that counts as a complete and total failure. No matter how you feel about Miko, her death does not make it all better. The death of Xykon and Redcloak would have, but the stars didn't align that way.

I guess it depends on what you assume the overall goal during the siege was. If it was simply to stop Xykon from accessing the Azure Gate, as Soon pointed it, it was technically a success. If it was to destroy Xykon and Redcloak then you're right, it was a failure.


That's not all, though. Nale is again loose in the world. Furthermore, he's several laps ahead of the Order right now. How is that going to turn out? Will they kill him this time? Will Thog side with Elan over Nale? Will Haley finally figure out whether Sabine's damage reduction is overcome by silver or cold iron?

I can't really see how you can call that a failure on the OotS' part, since they weren't guarding the Linear Guild. The LG and Miko managed to escape due to Tsiuko's actions, and I don't think anyone in the OotS even knows that she exists right now (except Belakr and Roy, but they only know here as "the weird goth girl who was at the trial," not the newest member of Team Evil).


So there was still a realistic opportunity for the party to contribute to the outcome if either: a) Haley and Belkar had been willing to leave the rest behind, or b) someone had brought a grappling hook and rope.

Point conceded.


This (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0440.html) strip says otherwise. Anything before this strip was not V attempting to solo a death knight. The linked strip itself was a clear attempt by V to flee the death knight. Running away was not an option, because death knights don't ever get tired. Elves do.

Five foot step, Invisibility. Unless Death Knights can dispel magic or see invisible, it would've likely forgotten about V and just started killing the Azure troops. As we see here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0452.html), V has no problem abandoning people to certain death


But seriously, if you found that a cheap gag, you're readign the wrong strip. That sort of thing has always been and will always be a deliberate part of this series, barring the Giant going all Dave Simm on us.

Hmm, only Dave Simm I get on Wiki is David Simms, who is a mathematics professor at the University of Dublin. Please to explaining?


Do you mind telling me why the party should have known that they'd be facing a character that was specifically designed to shut both of their main spellcasters down...Forget suggesting divinations -- you've see Thor's system in action, so you know how bad an idea that would be for an operation like this.

What are V's barred schools? We know one is Conjuration, since she can't teleport, but I'd have to call into question her much (self)vaunted intellect if she was dense enough to take Divination as the other.


None of those were plot points.

The life or death of a protagonist isn't a plot point? I know death is cheap in D&D (in fact, I fully expect Roy to ultimately suffer no ill effects from his death...raised one comic, a few comics of jokes about how Belkar and Elan are higher level than he is now, and then the level loss will be negated as well), but you would think it'd have some impact.

Incidentally, the bit in parenthesis there is why I don't consider Roy's death a failure.


All of them would also have taken considerably longer to draw. Considering the state of the Giant's health of late, I'm pretty happy that he didn't just cut to Haley saying, "Finally! I didn't think I'd ever lose them," in the next strip.

By this point, Haley had already killed twelve hobgoblins over the course of ten panels.

This is a comic that will devote 8 panels of a double length strip to two characters making out. I don't see what the problem of drawing out a combat a little would have been, given that.


(By the way, throwing Belkar to the hobgoblins might not be such a good idea -- firing into melee generally incurs a -4 penalty on the attack rolls.)

I think Alfryd already pointed out that's only if you care who you hit. Belkar dies, the hobgoblins die...either way, net gain for the party and, indeed, the entire world. :smallamused:


Considering how much I've seen them discussed, debated, and argued for the last few months... yeah.

I've also seen a considerable faction who considers it a given that Roy has to be raised because it's his story, usually citing the Giant's comments in No Cure to that effect. The only real impediment I see to Roy getting raised is the diamond, and I fully expect Haley or Hinjo to conveniently have one worth precisely 5,000g available (either in the Bags of Holding or on his ship)


This conversation has given me a few things to consider for other games, however, and I appreciate that. Thank you.

Introducing a new super villain called "The Annoying, Pedantic Arguer" into your supers game, aye? :smallsmile:


And let's be clear: Ampersand is being vocal about something found troublesome in the strip, and clear about why it doesn't earn approval. That is not the same as bashing the strip, no matter how thoroughly I disagree with the conclusions or preferences.

You mean it wasn't personal?

Oh.

Oh, crap.

Listen, next time you use mouth wash, hum the chorus from "Mr. Roboto," okay? Don't ask questions, just trust me, okay?


I was forced to read the comic, pay good money to buy the first three books, and to make this stick figure avatar of mine. I DEMAND only the best! DEMAND IT!

See, Dan gets it! :smallsmile:


I would just like to take this moment to point out that Miko has never really had this luxury.
Which is why she kicks ass.

:miko: No thank you, I do not require a character shield.

Miko does, in fact, kick ass.


Gosh. Other people are agreeing with me. I don't really know how to deal with that.
Joy, maybe? Help me out here.

I don't know, Alfryd, I'm confused too. And a little frightened.

[shylocxs]

but alas, I will never know the joy of eating a fruit pie fighting for its life, because FRUIT PIE SORCERERS DON'T EXIST!!!! :(

THANKS A LOT, BURLEW! :(

I will now lay in my bed and cry, it makes me so sad.


This comment was brought to you by the absurdity of complaining about the lack of realism and dramatic tension in this comic.

And, by the letter R and the number 7!

[Maurog]

Nerf rogues!

Sorry, it just had to be said...

[Shatteredtower]

I just don't see why people are declaring blind luck on the part of the protagonists to be awesome.It's nice to see it occasionally work out for those who take the shot.

I mean, Elan's reputation as a bard was practically ruined in Azure City.


I'll file that under 'ludicrous,' particularly given they would have to descend the tower, walk through the hobgoblins on the ground, and scale the walls of the castle in the process.Descent does not appear to have been a problem. From the conversations we've seen the Order have, the only real concern appeared to be those concerning how to get everyone into the castle itself.

(Well, I'll be damned. Those are helmets in strip #463. Sorry, Puck, wherever you are. Looks like my home computer really sucks.)


If the characters happen to die, or be are serious danger of doing so, or, say, are in serious danger of alerting a level 22 Lich sorceror to their presence while trying to retrieve their leader's corpse, I would automatically consider that a plot point.This is Xykon we're talking about; he doesn't give a damn what's happening in the city right now.

As for characters in serious danger of dying, the closest we've gotten from within the party was Roy, a scene that caught people completely unprepared in large part due to V's lucky escape.


So skip a few intervals of killing hobgoblins. You can assume business as usual between panels. It's not like Rich hasn't done so often before.Where the numbers faced and amount of ammunition left weren't relevant, sure. Maybe they're only relevant to the title, I'll grant you, but we'll see.


I guess it depends on what you assume the overall goal during the siege was. If it was simply to stop Xykon from accessing the Azure Gate, as Soon pointed it, it was technically a success. If it was to destroy Xykon and Redcloak then you're right, it was a failure.The latter was Roy's goal.

As for the guild's escape, that's a longterm failure. Just because they had a sound plan for containing them doesn't mean they consider the final results a success, not when it's a problem that keeps coming back to them.


Five foot step, Invisibility.And V has a 50/50 chance of getting killed on the spot, because the death knight knows exactly what square V is in. V was hoping for a diversion first, but that didn't pan out. Was V's next move going to be casting the spell anyway? We don't know, because a falling dragon's head settled the issue, setting V up for the scene you just linked. I don't see how running from the death knight could have been anywhere near as powerful as that scene.


Hmm, only Dave Simm I get on Wiki is David Simms, who is a mathematics professor at the University of Dublin. Please to explaining?Sorry, I misspelled the last name: Dave Sim, author of Cerberus the Aardvark. Took what started out as something of a Conan parody and started getting cerebral with it. Then it got weird.


What are V's barred schools? We know one is Conjuration, since she can't teleport, but I'd have to call into question her much (self)vaunted intellect if she was dense enough to take Divination as the other.Divination can't be taken as a barred school, and V has already cast two such spells over the course of this strip: detect magic and identify. Scrying could have been useful, and most would consider it essential, but it allows the target a saving throw, and Nale's don't appear to be too shabby. Targetting Thog would be good, but with the plan already in motion, all you'd really learn is what it looked like where Nale was for 13 minutes per casting. Maybe. There really isn't time to pinpoint that location, not with Julia in peril.

In any case, we're talking about someone with limited spell selection compared to a cleric -- and as we've seen (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0049.html), V hasn't had the best luck with that. At all. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0306.html)


The life or death of a protagonist isn't a plot point?Death, maybe. Life, no. Since V lived, and the plot did not go through a major turn as a result of that, it wasn't a plot point.


Incidentally, the bit in parenthesis there is why I don't consider Roy's death a failure.The fact that time keeps passing, time that Roy's adversaries are able to utilize but that he cannot, are why I take a different view of things.


This is a comic that will devote 8 panels of a double length strip to two characters making out. I don't see what the problem of drawing out a combat a little would have been, given that.It did the latter exactly once, several strips ago. The Giant's got to pace himself, you know? :smallwink:


I think Alfryd already pointed out that's only if you care who you hit. Belkar dies, the hobgoblins die...either way, net gain for the party and, indeed, the entire world. :smallamused: Except that Haley's luck with Belkar would mean that the halfling gets away and stumbles across Roy's body -- well outside of city limits.

Just how badly did you want that uncertain an outcome to the mission? :smallwink:


Introducing a new super villain called "The Annoying, Pedantic Arguer" into your supers game, aye? :smallsmile: Bah. This isn't annoying.

Trying to type up a response when, over the course of two hours, you are interupted every thirty seconds by the ringing of the phone, the doorbell, a fax machine, a delivery, people calling out to you from over the balcony some thirty feet away... then we're starting to get into taxing territory.

This sort of thing, on the other hand, makes a 10 hour day on 5 hours of sleep (of the 9 between shifts) in a muggy, hot sealed room, waiting for a pick-up that never arrives, a bit easier to endure.

Nah. I can't be that annoying, or the replies would be shorter, if not entirely absent.


You mean it wasn't personal?How could it be? I have no idea who you are. Perhaps you have me at a disadvantage in that regard? I'm pretty sure I haven't killed anyone's dog or cost them a job, though, so surely it really can't be that bad?

Sure, the discussion is entertaining, though I don't know what Dennis DeYoung has to do with it.

[Devoured_Dude]

So far, this has been the opposite of a stealth operation...

[David Argall]

While condemned by most moral authorities, killing everybody who sees you has been tried before as a means of stealth, and with some success.

[Lorde]

Following Belkar love / hate switch mentality, he nows love Haley?

[berrew]

I won't quibble over whether or not you consider a < 5% chance staggeringly slim. landing next to the MitD goes unmentioned because it's completely irrelevant to any damn thing.A 5% change of something occurring is unlikely, but plausible. "Staggeringly slim" odds should leave you reeling if they happen, and a 1 in 20 chance of something is nice but hardly ground-breaking or newsworthy. The likelihood of my winning the lottery is staggeringly slim (even if I bought tickets). The likelihood of it raining tomorrow? Low. Maybe 5%, since the forecast is sunny and warm.

In any case its just funny to hear folks quibble over probabilities of events occurring, and ignoring the only seriously low-probability event in that strip. I see a NPC without XXed eyes land next to the MiTD. Now, what part of that scene is lowest probability?

(1) The MiTD found a WoTC dragon to sip tea with.
(2) O-Chul pops out of the keep, and flies miles in the air, and lands in front of MiTD.
(3) O-Chul rolls a 20 (or maybe a 19-20) to survive the fall.

[berrew]

Following Belkar love / hate switch mentality, he nows love Haley?To nitpick - it's a lust/hate switch, and she's been on the lust side for a while, for sure.

[aristodeimos]

I don't think O-Chul is dead. His eyes didn't go X X when he hit the ground.

[Devoured_Dude]

While condemned by most moral authorities, killing everybody who sees you has been tried before as a means of stealth, and with some success.

By that logic, a Medusa is the most stealthy creature in D&D! :smallwink:

[rxmd]

I guess Belkar won't tell her that she probably won't get XP for any of them.

[Wolfe]

While condemned by most moral authorities, killing everybody who sees you has been tried before as a means of stealth, and with some success.

Sam Fisher, is that you?

[pjackson]

The PCs are powerful enough to brute force their way through almost anything these days,

Yes they are.
As shown by strips like 470.
But almost everything is not everything.


It doesn't have to be every conflict, but there should be some. I can't remember the last time I got the impression that the OotS would actually fail at something...or, if they did, that the stars wouldn't align two seconds later and magically make it all better.


You could argue that they failed to protect Azure City and the gate, but given the circumstances (the overwhelming force sent against the city, the fact that what happened with the gate was entirely NPC-based) I would say that those were plot events they weren't meant to influence anyway, and would have occurred with or without the protagonists' intervention.


They did intervene and got beaten, and are about to retreat.
They failed.
They reason does not mean it isn't a failure.

The strip gave Haley a chance to show what she can do, and it it is nice that we were shown that.
As far as the story goes I think it is more important that Belkar saw it was was impressed. I suspect its effect on the relationship between those two will be important.


I disagree with you there. It was V's fault...she was the one who attempted to solo a Death Knight despite the fact that it obviously outclassed her and she had escape magics available. I believe the term is "let the dice fall where they may."

What escape magic? Invisibility does not work terribly well if the opponent knows you are there and has area attack abilities.
It was not V's choice for all his/her nearby allies to be killed, and it was the death knight that chose to start the fight.


It's when control weather spells, falling dragon heads and hazardous masonry placement start to become plot points in of themselves that I start to get annoyed.

The falling masonry was a very, very minor point as far a the plot goes. All it did was save Haley a few arrows and maybe a few hit points.


Haley tumbling through the hobgoblins, causing them to accidentally stab each other? Haley shooting a barrel of gun powder (that we saw set up in a previous strip) and pelting the hobgoblins with shrapnel? Haley tossing Belkar off to distract the hobgoblins and then sniping them while they tried to kill the halfling? All of them accomplish the same thing as falling masonry and let Haley look as cool without getting into the it just so happened factor that 470 has in spades. In this case, of course, it just so happened that the battle was being fought underneath several tons of brick and mortar being help up by a tiny rock that coincidentally enough could be moved out of position by an arrow.

It was important that Haley win without Belkar's help.
But the presence of unstable masonry in a city that has just suffered and enormous explosion is entirely to be expected. Haley positioning the Hobgoblins beneath it and then disturbing it to fall on them is quite reasonable.