How can you keep the party from resting or from going to town? [Archive]

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Apophis775

2016-06-08, 01:50 AM

Immabozo

2016-06-08, 01:52 AM

Give them a time crunch.

noce

2016-06-08, 03:59 AM

Two things come to my mind that made impossible for us to sleep.
1- someone was chasing us
2- everytime we slept we had the worst nightmares ever, and when we woke up we beared on our bodies the wounds suffered in the nightmare

Tohsaka Rin

2016-06-08, 04:00 AM

As always, the solution to having worries about your players actions is to...

Talk it out with them. Sit down before your next play session, and talk to the group as one of the many humans sitting at the same table, playing the same game.

Explain to them what your worries are. Nine times out of ten, just talking things out fixes the problem.

Beheld

2016-06-08, 04:09 AM

The main issues here are:

1) Why do you want to stop them from resting or going to town?

So far you put out a few "worries":

a) The party spends too much time resting.
b) Grind for XP

Solutions:
a) Don't Grind the party to near death with random encounters.
b) Don't give XP. No seriously. Don't use XP, XP is terrible. Just level the party when it is appropriate to level. When they accomplish goals that actually relate to progressing the campaign.

If the party is trying to rest, it is because they don't want to die, and they are worried that if they don't rest, they might die.

Tohsaka Rin

2016-06-08, 04:15 AM

One way of dispensing with XP is just to hand out 'portions of a level' tokens.

I've done that before, seemed to work well. "You won the fight, here's 1/4th of a level."

"Tricked the scamming traders? AND you took out the hired thugs robbing the trade caravans? Here's half a level."

I've also just handed out a full level at the end of so many sessions. Combat-heavy session? Have a level each, players.

There's no singular way to approach a problem.

Quertus

2016-06-08, 04:48 AM

So I'm running a campaign, and it seems that sometimes the party spends more time resting then moving. My worry is that, the next module in the campaign doesn't have a town a days walk away like they enjoy now, but several days of travel across across tundra. I'm worried they will spend more time fighting wandering monsters than in the dungeon.

Another minor problem, is that if I throw baby mobs at them, they will grind them for XP, and these modules are a little "tight" on what level you should be to not overpower the modules.

Suggestions?

On the surface, this is one of the best reasons I've seen for level actually mattering. However, level is generally a poor indicator of raw power, or ability to shape the narrative. Unless it's matter of, "ability x comes online at level y, and would completely trivialize the whole module", it really shouldn't be a concern. And if that is the case, then, realistically, the party ought to be hiring a level x npc to trivialize the module for them anyway.

So I'm curious what makes party level so important in this module.

But, if you really want the party to not need to go back to town, make them not need to go back to town. Give them Misha, the sentient necklace that will eat all their undesired loot, and spit out whatever they desire of "equivalent" value (just as if they had sold it in town).

Dread_Head

2016-06-08, 07:29 AM

So I'm running a campaign, and it seems that sometimes the party spends more time resting then moving. My worry is that, the next module in the campaign doesn't have a town a days walk away like they enjoy now, but several days of travel across across tundra. I'm worried they will spend more time fighting wandering monsters than in the dungeon.

Another minor problem, is that if I throw baby mobs at them, they will grind them for XP, and these modules are a little "tight" on what level you should be to not overpower the modules.

Suggestions?

Don't use wandering monsters? They typically aren't much of a threat to the party so just provide some easy xp and loot. On the rare occasion they do prove threatening to the party if anyone dies it's hugely anti climatic as they fell at a point which wasn't even contributing to the plot. It will speed up your game too allowing you to keep the plot of the module moving along at a nice pace.

If that is too far for you then have wandering monsters on their first trip to town but then make it considerably less likely to encounter any more on each return trip as they clear the area out slowly and the monsters still around learn to avoid them.

Arc_knight25

2016-06-08, 07:47 AM

I'm going to have to agree with Beheld. Do away with XP and never look back. Our gaming group did this for our last campaign and it just makes everything better. I have taken the DM mantle up and we still have done away with it. As a Dm you'll always hear, 'Do we get to level up?" or some variation of that.

Next is to take off the kiddy gloves and get your players to not play with a safety net. That safety net being the town. They need to learn to prepare for travel and be ready for tough encounters that a PC might not walk away from. If they fail to leave town. Then I recommend you begin to "off" NPC's that they may have grown to love. Or make a threat to the town in which they stay.

Pathfinder Modules are nice because they tend to give you idea's for when things don't go quite as the book intended. (I.E if a boss npc gets away they come back later in the module more powerful, if they fail to deal with a threat the threat grows and comes to them.)

Barstro

2016-06-08, 08:29 AM

There have been some great ideas. However, they might not work for all people.

Resting or going to town is not a problem, it is a symptom of a problem. The underlying problem is what dictates what, if any, solution you can have.

Players rest mainly to learn their spells so they can win fights. Players go to town in order to lighten their loads (assuming you even keep track of weight) and to buy better items so they can win fights. Winning fights is what helps the PCs advance the plot and "win" the game.

If the players are looking at the game as a dungeon crawl, then they expect everything to be a fight, each one slightly harder than the last, with a final BBEG to defeat. Even if there is no actual dungeon, this mentality can take over the game. If there's a minor obstacle in the way, they want to kill it instead of talk their way through it. For that, spells need to be maxed out.

Other groups might see things as individual challenges and be willing to do more roleplaying. But, even they need to have all spells ready "just in case".

And then there is the unwritten rule that even if DMs are willing and wanting to kill PCs, it will only be done from fair fights. The Big Evil is not going to just appear in a room while the PCs are resting.

I think the answer is __fold
1) Talk to the Players and let them know that it isn't really a game if the PCs are at full health, buffed, and have all spells ready all the time. If they want that, you can just tell them what the fight would have been, award levels, lather-rinse-repeat, be done in 30 minutes, and go watch Boondock Saints.

2) Give the PCs a reason that resting is worse than not resting. Maybe everyone knows that the BBEG will be here in a week. They can either struggle to level in time by taking care of things quickly, or be three levels behind because they entered only five fights in that time. Maybe they only have food for five days and it takes three days to get from one town to the other (leaves only two days to explore the cave).

3) Give the PCs obstacles that they just cannot overcome by fighting so they get XP (of whatever form you are using) without needing to rest all the time. I find it interesting that if the PCs find a wide and deep chasm at level 2, they will wait and level up to get flight or some other means of realistically overcoming the obstacle, but if the chasm is replaced with a red dragon, they will assume it's a fight they need to take then and there (and if they need to take it, then they are expected to win).

4) Enforce the fact that spell slots can be recharged only once per 24 hours. You cannot have three fights and rest three times in a single day.

The main thing is that Players (out of game) and PCs (in game) understand that there is a legitimate reason for not resting so often.

Beheld

2016-06-08, 09:12 AM

1) Talk to the Players and let them know that it isn't really a game if the PCs are at full health, buffed, and have all spells ready all the time. If they want that, you can just tell them what the fight would have been, award levels, lather-rinse-repeat, be done in 30 minutes, and go watch Boondock Saints.

You can have a perfectly fun and even challenging game without demanding that the party take fights with reduced resources.

4) Enforce the fact that spell slots can be recharged only once per 24 hours. You cannot have three fights and rest three times in a single day.

This is not a solution. If the PCs think they are going to die if they move forward without resting, then declaring they have to rest for 22 hours instead of 8 means they will rest for 22 hours instead of 8, because the alternative is character death.

Grand Poobah

2016-06-08, 10:02 AM

Couple of points (sorry not read all the replies).

Read the rules on divine and arcane spell memorization. Clerics, for example, can only gain their spells when they pray and they can only pray for their spells once per 24 hours. Wizards, have a restriction on their mental capacity to revise spells within a given period of time, IIRC it's 8 hours but IAFB so can't check.

Regarding XP, if they are unloading all their spells in one or two encounters (or random encounters) and then resting to be fully prepared for the next encounter, they are trivialising the combat and it's less of a challenge. Less challenge = less XP is awarded for that encounter.

Regarding going to town use market forces. High supply = low demand and low prices. If instead of getting the default 50% of an item's value the merchants start giving 10% or refusing to take the 100th piece of kobold sized leather armour the party want to sell.

Have a festival or fare take place in the town so all the spare inn rooms are booked up. Yeah you can try and rest and revise your spells down some back alley but there's a good chance drunk revellers/muggers/escorts/other out of luck people will disturb your rest. Or perhaps another adventuring group hoovered up all the spare scrolls/potions etc. Have a limit on what magic items are available using the max gp values of towns.

Remove the reward/reasons that's causing the behaviour and they should start deciding, by themselves, to journey on longer and further.

Flickerdart

2016-06-08, 10:07 AM

While they are resting at home, another adventuring party clears out "their" dungeon.

Deadline

2016-06-08, 10:13 AM

Barstro

2016-06-08, 10:38 AM

You can have a perfectly fun and even challenging game without demanding that the party take fights with reduced resources.
I'm not saying that one (or one group) cannot have fun. But the OP is running a module that I'm willing to bet had fights that do not expect the PCs to be at full health and spells for each and every one. I proposed my possible solutions as a way to encourage battles that are not constantly bulldozers vs. bulldogs.

This is not a solution. If the PCs think they are going to die if they move forward without resting, then declaring they have to rest for 22 hours instead of 8 means they will rest for 22 hours instead of 8, because the alternative is character death.
It is a solution; just not one that you personally endorse.

Nor did I say that the PCs need to go forward even if they think they would die without resting. That is the exact reason TO rest. I am presenting ways to encourage the party to not rest simply because they have only a 95% chance of winning the next fight without running away and they want it to be 100%.

Your scenario seems to me to involve a fight in the early morning where most of their spells have been used and now they need to rest to feel strong. I submit that they should have been more judicial in their spell choices in that fight, and they cannot fight the BBEG right now. Deciding that they can rest eight hours instead of the RAW (I believe) required time off to regain spells is changing the rules to encourage the type of game play that the OP is concerned about.

On a similar vein; if the PCs quickly get to the BBEG, I see no reason that the BBEG shouldn't be an easier fight because he was caught off-guard when he had expected the PCs to spend eight hours in the room next door before barging in.

EDIT: I had this scenario come up in a game.
Me: Guys, I'm out of spells
Party: We rest for the day
Me: No, it's 9:30 in the morning and I woke up two hours ago. I'm not going to rest, I'm just advising you that I will not have spells available. Use your swords and I'll do what I can.
Strangely, we still won those next few fights. It wasn't due to DM fiat.

But, I prefer my games to be as real as complete fantasy can actually be. Others may have different ideas on what constitutes fun.

Beheld

2016-06-08, 11:13 AM

Deciding that they can rest eight hours instead of the RAW (I believe) required time off to regain spells is changing the rules to encourage the type of game play that the OP is concerned about.\

The Raw is different for different classes. For Clerics, it is whenever their next prayer cycle is, which will mostly be 22-23 hours from when they last prepared spells (but could be shorter) and could be 10 minutes from whenever the party decides to rest or 8 hours or 22 hours.

For Arcane Casters it is 8 hours from when they start resting.

Strangely, we still won those next few fights. It wasn't due to DM fiat.

Yes it was. When the DM fiats the encounters to be pathetically easy encounters that can be beaten by the party sleep walking through them while one person contributes nothing, that's still DM fiat.

But, I prefer my games to be as real as complete fantasy can actually be. Others may have different ideas on what constitutes fun.

I prefer my games to be good and not terrible. But unspecified others may have different ideas on what constitutes fun. I'm definitely not just being a **** and insulting people, Everyone has their own fun.

Or you know, your version of real isn't very real, and my version of real is more real.

Gildedragon

2016-06-08, 12:07 PM

NomGarret

2016-06-08, 12:34 PM

"Guys, I wouldn't sleep here. This is brain mole country. Do you really want to risk having your brain eaten in your sleep for a couple spells?"

Beheld

2016-06-08, 12:49 PM

Wizards can prepare their spells only once per 24 hours after 8 (or 4) hours of rest.

There is no actual rule for this anywhere.

It's based on an incomprehensible reading of table label, and it literally destroys Clerics, by making them only capable of preparing spells once every 48 hours if you apply it.

Also it flat destroys itself the moment anyone casts planeshift.

Barstro

2016-06-08, 01:02 PM

Yes it was. When the DM fiats the encounters to be pathetically easy encounters that can be beaten by the party sleep walking through them while one person contributes nothing, that's still DM fiat.

Ah, we agree; pathetically easy encounters are DM fiat.

I simply feel that allowing the party to rest all the time to have all spells available to make every fight easy is fiat instead of real.

Those fights of mine were not "pathetically easy". It involved more work from the mundanes and my caster being in much more harm's way by trying to aid in any way possible.

redzimmer

2016-06-08, 01:14 PM

1. Add obstacles. In videogame parlance they call it the Broken Bridge.

If suddenly an avalanche, flood, snowstorm, etc. has closed off the road to home, they will have to press on.

2. Give incentive to press onward.

"If you go back, this treasure will be looted long before you get back." "The alignment of stars will open the thinny gates to Tir Na Nog for the next hour only!"

3. Destroy the town.

Flickerdart

2016-06-08, 01:25 PM

I simply feel that allowing the party to rest all the time to have all spells available to make every fight easy is fiat instead of real.

It's a simple solution.

If the PCs storm through a compound in minutes, they encounter scattered and disorganized groups of enemies, but are hampered by their dwindling spell slots, creating challenge.

If the PCs hit-and-run the compound, its defenders will organize and band together, also creating challenge.

Winter_Wolf

2016-06-08, 01:38 PM

XP for treasure. Since at least half of the people reading now are preparing scathing replies to that: random encounters are worth minuscule xp. Enforcement of spell casting requirements and times. Time crunch.

Give the group a reputation for being slow, dilettantes, or ditherers. And have a rival NPC party that beats them to the prize when they screw around. But seriously, give them a reputation for taking their sweet time and have their quests go to the go-getters. If the players are "the good guys" why are the villains waiting around for them to be at full strength? Villains are notoriously proactive; crimes against creation don't typically just go around committing themselves.

Barstro

2016-06-08, 01:52 PM

1. Add obstacles. In videogame parlance they call it the Broken Bridge.

If suddenly an avalanche, flood, snowstorm, etc. has closed off the road to home, they will have to press on.

Used to excess, this can lead to railroading. I'm not opposed to minimal railroading to keep the story going, but there are many out there who are much more opposed than I.

Flickerdart

2016-06-08, 01:55 PM

Used to excess, this can lead to railroading. I'm not opposed to minimal railroading to keep the story going, but there are many out there who are much more opposed than I.
Used to excess, this can lead to the PCs rising up against the heavens and leading a crusade to dethrone the vengeful God of Weather.

Barstro

2016-06-08, 01:57 PM

It's a simple solution.

...

If the PCs hit-and-run the compound, its defenders will organize and band together, also creating challenge.

I agree. In fact, I would add reinforcements if there was enough time to send word to the next camp. After additional thought; I would have the enemies lure the PCs far into the dungeon, seal off the exit, and do their own hit and run in order to deplete spells before a larger fight. Upon winning, the PCs would find some inter-dungeon memo outlining that the PCs were seen in there earlier and that this tactic should be used. That should be enough of a clue that the enemies are structured and hit-and-sleep tactics have their own drawbacks.

However, the OP said he is running a module. As such, there may not be provisions for such a thing (or take more work than the OP wishes to invest).

Eldariel

2016-06-08, 01:57 PM

Dynamic world is a natural solution - spending time in any which way in a dynamic world usually comes at a cost. Dungeons with ecologies, roaming creatures, active opposing parties, dangerous rests, moving events. Players resting means the Ritual of Terrible Evil is finished and they have to face substantially greater odds, or on sufficiently high levels the world is ****ed. Or perhaps the bad guy no longer needs the princess and she's now imprisoned and their real quest will become freedoming her. Or perhaps nothing that concerns the PCs is particularly going on and it doesn't really matter; depends on the state of affairs.

killem2

2016-06-08, 04:14 PM

Weather Effects, Fog, Getting Lost and relying on survival checks.

Then they get jumped.

Or, tyrannically ran city of SS police level inspections where no one is safe and they get caught with *insert whatever* as contraband, and they are sent to jail.

Darth Ultron

2016-06-08, 04:32 PM

Well, you really can't ''stop'' the party from resting. Resting is part of the rules and it's how characters regain abilities and spells and hit points and other things. So, doing a ''24'' version of D&D just won't work.

If you really want ''no rest'' just add in House Rules like ''all characters get full HP, spells and abilities at the start of any encounter''.

Though stopping them from resting in a town is easy:

1.Have no town nearby.
2.Have the only town nearby be a Wretched Hive of Scum and Villainy.
3.Put a block between the town and where they are.

Segev

2016-06-08, 04:46 PM

It boils down to why this is a problem. What is causing them to rest/go to town so often, and why is this a problem for your game?

skyth

2016-06-08, 04:50 PM

I don't have this problem too much in my campaign. Though I wear the players down with easy encounters rather than expecting them to need to shoot their entire wad at once. It's an attrition battle and not every encounter would reasonably be life or death. My players have still cleared an entire dungeon level though.

They've also had to leave before finishing something off...And there were consequences for that.

Kelb_Panthera

2016-06-08, 09:59 PM

Might I ask which module you're running? Coming up with good, non-railroady methods to encourage desired behavior requires a somewhat clearer picture of the scenario.

Note, however, that it's ultimately impossible to prevent the PC's from either resting when they wish or even abandoning the current quest-line if it becomes more trouble than it's worth unless you're willing to breakout the rails and start laying track.

Crake

2016-06-08, 11:44 PM

You can have a perfectly fun and even challenging game without demanding that the party take fights with reduced resources.

This is not a solution. If the PCs think they are going to die if they move forward without resting, then declaring they have to rest for 22 hours instead of 8 means they will rest for 22 hours instead of 8, because the alternative is character death.

If players feel they can blow all their abilities in every single fight it really changes the way fights need to be designed. For example, up until 4th level a barbarian can only rage 1/day, meaning they need to think carefully about when they need to rage. If the party rests for 24 hours after every fight, then that becomes a non-factor, and the barbarian may as well be raging every fight, and the DM may as well make rage at will, which serves to significantly boost the power of the barbarian, he's hitting harder, and more accurately, meaning enemies need higher AC and HP to challenge them at the same level as before.

Now, I'm not saying that you can't have fun that way, but it does change the way the game is played significantly, and modules especially won't be able to handle that kind of play very well, since the encounters are most likely designed to be done as one of a series of encounters for the day, if not to be done over the course of a single adventuring day.

Wizards can prepare their spells only once per 24 hours after 8 (or 4) hours of rest.
They need not prepare ALL their spells and can fill those (unprepared slots) with a few minutes' preparation.

Actually, wizards have no stipulation about only being able to prepare spells once per day, unlike spontaneous casters, who can only regain their spell slots 1/day after 8 hours of rest, and divine casters who can only prepare their spells at one time of the day (though do not require 8 hours of rest). Wizards simply require 8 hours of rest, and 1 hour of time to prepare their slots, meaning they can do it almost 3 times a day, given enough free time.

killem2

2016-06-09, 06:38 AM

Hamste

2016-06-09, 07:32 AM

I personally like having the obstacles happen when they come back not when they leave. Don't have the bridge be washed out, have some of the monsters from the dungeon destroy it after the heroes leave. Have the monsters make clever ambushes or call in reinforcements. Destroy food sources to make it inconvenient to constantly cross that tundra. Dig traps that harass the party. Basically if your group makes as tactically unsound*of a choice as to literally leave a dungeon they were attacking for several days then you should have the monsters employ guerilla tactics or more tactics in general.

Also I add my voice to the chorus of just don't do xp. XP can be good but if it is really that important that they are a certain level for a dungeon then just ignore it.

Barstro

2016-06-09, 08:11 AM

actually, wizards have no stipulation about only being able to prepare spells once per day, unlike spontaneous casters, who can only regain their spell slots 1/day after 8 hours of rest, and divine casters who can only prepare their spells at one time of the day (though do not require 8 hours of rest). Wizards simply require 8 hours of rest, and 1 hour of time to prepare their slots, meaning they can do it almost 3 times a day, given enough free time.

I don't think that's true (but would not argue against a game where that was made an explicit rule).

From the SRD (emphasis added)

A wizard’s level limits the number of spells she can prepare and cast. Her high Intelligence score might allow her to prepare a few extra spells. She can prepare the same spell more than once, but each preparation counts as one spell toward her daily limit.
Recent Casting Limit/Rest Interruptions
If a wizard has cast spells recently, the drain on her resources reduces her capacity to prepare new spells. When she prepares spells for the coming day, all the spells she has cast within the last 8 hours count against her daily limit.

Preparation Environment
To prepare any spell, a wizard must have enough peace, quiet, and comfort to allow for proper concentration. The wizard’s surroundings need not be luxurious, but they must be free from overt distractions. Exposure to inclement weather prevents the necessary concentration, as does any injury or failed saving throw the character might experience while studying. Wizards also must have access to their spellbooks to study from and sufficient light to read them by. There is one major exception: A wizard can prepare a read magic spell even without a spellbook.

Spell Preparation Time
After resting, a wizard must study her spellbook to prepare any spells that day. If she wants to prepare all her spells, the process takes 1 hour. Preparing some smaller portion of her daily capacity takes a proportionally smaller amount of time, but always at least 15 minutes, the minimum time required to achieve the proper mental state.

Spell Selection and Preparation
Until she prepares spells from her spellbook, the only spells a wizard has available to cast are the ones that she already had prepared from the previous day and has not yet used. During the study period, she chooses which spells to prepare. If a wizard already has spells prepared (from the previous day) that she has not cast, she can abandon some or all of them to make room for new spells.

When preparing spells for the day, a wizard can leave some of these spell slots open. Later during that day, she can repeat the preparation process as often as she likes, time and circumstances permitting. During these extra sessions of preparation, the wizard can fill these unused spell slots. She cannot, however, abandon a previously prepared spell to replace it with another one or fill a slot that is empty because she has cast a spell in the meantime. That sort of preparation requires a mind fresh from rest. Like the first session of the day, this preparation takes at least 15 minutes, and it takes longer if the wizard prepares more than one-quarter of her spells.

Spell Slots
The various character class tables show how many spells of each level a character can cast per day. These openings for daily spells are called spell slots. A spellcaster always has the option to fill a higher-level spell slot with a lower-level spell. A spellcaster who lacks a high enough ability score to cast spells that would otherwise be his or her due still gets the slots but must fill them with spells of lower level.

From my early games (red box, AD&D), I think the "once per 24 hours" was more expressly written and just assumed to be understood in future versions.

Certainly a Wizard could blow through all his spells, rest to get them again, and blow through THEM nine hours later (eight to rest, one to prepare), but couldn't relearn any spells until 24 have elapsed (eight of which would be resting).

EDIT: The only thing even coming close to checking the power of Casters is the limited nature of their spells vs. the unending nature of mundane attacks. Effectively tripling caster power is not exactly help this situation.

killem2

2016-06-09, 10:03 AM

The other thing that should be asked, are you trying to make resting less frequent because they are curb stomping your encounters? If so it might be better to increase the CRs of the fights.

Beheld

2016-06-09, 10:17 AM

If players feel they can blow all their abilities in every single fight it really changes the way fights need to be designed. For example, up until 4th level a barbarian can only rage 1/day, meaning they need to think carefully about when they need to rage. If the party rests for 24 hours after every fight, then that becomes a non-factor, and the barbarian may as well be raging every fight, and the DM may as well make rage at will, which serves to significantly boost the power of the barbarian, he's hitting harder, and more accurately, meaning enemies need higher AC and HP to challenge them at the same level as before.

Barbarians can take Extra Rage, have 4 rages a day, Rage every fight, does that mean you have to drastically rewrite all encounters? Or does that mean you have to accept, when designing encounters, that CRs already assume the Barbarian can probably rage, because Barbarian's Rage, and it is literally their only class feature.

Just like all fights assume the Wizard casts spells. Which is why if the party sits down to rest after every fight, whether they rest for 8 hours or 22, the game doesn't instantly become a cakewalk, because any and every fight could be the first fight of the day, and needs to be challenging on that premise anyway.

I don't think that's true (but would not argue against a game where that was made an explicit rule).

From the SRD (emphasis added)

Recent Casting Limit/Rest Interruptions
If a wizard has cast spells recently, the drain on her resources reduces her capacity to prepare new spells. When she prepares spells for the coming day, all the spells she has cast within the last 8 hours count against her daily limit.

But these daily limits are defined in the game based on the 8 hours of rest necessary to refresh them. The rules says that you rest for 8 hours and get all your daily spells back. No where do the rules say that daily limits don't come back for 24 hours, you are making that up. And as soon as you planeshift to Archon, a day could, depending on the cube you stand on, be between infinity years and 38 seconds.

And if you do claim that spell slots work that way, then Clerics can only cast their spells once every 48 hours, since at sunrise, they prepare spells for an hour, and then they cast spells, and then they rest, and then, at the next sunrise, it hasn't been 24 hours since they last prepared spells, it has been 23 hours, so they can't prepare spells, so then they go an entire day without spells, and then prepare spells the next sunrise.

EDIT: The only thing even coming close to checking the power of Casters is the limited nature of their spells vs. the unending nature of mundane attacks. Effectively tripling caster power is not exactly help this situation.

This is a bad argument. First off, it assumes a bunch of false things about how fighters are the appropriate balance point instead of encounters. And secondly, as I already stated in this thread, making the party wait longer doesn't make them wait less, it makes them wait longer. People don't choose to die because they don't have the spells to keep going, they choose to rest, and every time you try to make resting "harder" it just means that they are still going to rest.

Barstro

2016-06-09, 10:56 AM

You disagree with my basic views of the game on many issues. I say that a daily allotment is once per day (which the game defines as 24 hours) and you state that once per day is any time after 8 hours of rest, as many times as possible.

As such, we could never agree and there is no reason for me to try to explain my interpretation of definitions. However, I will respond to the following.

And if you do claim that spell slots work that way, then Clerics can only cast their spells once every 48 hours, since at sunrise, they prepare spells for an hour, and then they cast spells, and then they rest, and then, at the next sunrise, it hasn't been 24 hours since they last prepared spells, it has been 23 hours, so they can't prepare spells, so then they go an entire day without spells, and then prepare spells the next sunrise.

No, they do not need to go 48 hours. The rules allow for the spells to be prepared as soon after the appointed time as possible.

You also are switching around time rules. They prepare at sunrise. So long as they rest 8 hours and then prepare at the next sunrise, it does not matter how many spells they cast prior to that rest. If they are otherwise occupied at sunrise, they get to prepare at the next available moment.

In short, and in my interpretation; all casters get a daily allotment for spells in a 24 hour period. Wizards can fill that at any time during the day, but are hampered by needing a spellbook with said spells already entered. Clerics are not hampered by a spellbook and can get any spell on the list, but are hampered by needing to do that at a particular time of day.

killem2

2016-06-09, 11:01 AM

You disagree with my basic views of the game on many issues. I say that a daily allotment is once per day (which the game defines as 24 hours) and you state that once per day is any time after 8 hours of rest, as many times as possible.

As such, we could never agree and there is no reason for me to try to explain my interpretation of definitions. However, I will respond to the following.

No, they do not need to go 48 hours. The rules allow for the spells to be prepared as soon after the appointed time as possible.

You also are switching around time rules. They prepare at sunrise. So long as they rest 8 hours and then prepare at the next sunrise, it does not matter how many spells they cast prior to that rest. If they are otherwise occupied at sunrise, they get to prepare at the next available moment.

In short, and in my interpretation; all casters get a daily allotment for spells in a 24 hour period. Wizards can fill that at any time during the day, but are hampered by needing a spellbook with said spells already entered. Clerics are not hampered by a spellbook and can get any spell on the list, but are hampered by needing to do that at a particular time of day.

2nd and correct.

Beheld

2016-06-09, 11:02 AM

No, they do not need to go 48 hours. The rules allow for the spells to be prepared as soon after the appointed time as possible.

You also are switching around time rules. They prepare at sunrise. So long as they rest 8 hours and then prepare at the next sunrise, it does not matter how many spells they cast prior to that rest. If they are otherwise occupied at sunrise, they get to prepare at the next available moment.

And the appointed time (sunrise) occurs 23 hours after they last prepared spells. So according to your made up only once every 24 hours rule, they totally can't prepare spells then. And the rules for waiting only apply if they can't pray, not if they can pray but don't get any spells because of the magic 24 hours rule that you made up. (And have absolutely no in game definition for, and just claim you do because you think you remember a rule from second edition.)

Gildedragon

2016-06-09, 11:26 AM

Barstro

2016-06-09, 12:05 PM

And the appointed time (sunrise) occurs 23 hours after they last prepared spells. So according to your made up only once every 24 hours rule, they totally can't prepare spells then. And the rules for waiting only apply if they can't pray, not if they can pray but don't get any spells because of the magic 24 hours rule that you made up. (And have absolutely no in game definition for, and just claim you do because you think you remember a rule from second edition.)

You seem to want to misinterpret what I say to present an illogical conclusion. If you stop misinterpreting and misquoting, perhaps you will see that there is no illogical conclusion.

Specifically to Clerics; they can recharge their spells at a particular time of day (we'll say sunrise for this). If they miss sunrise, then they can do this as soon thereafter as possible.

The above can be done after eight hours of rest.

That's it.

Cast all your spells at midnight?
Rest eight hours and renew in the morning.

Cast all your spells at 4:00am?
Rest eight hours and renew "as soon thereafter".
Next day, maybe you'll be able to do it at sunrise. Either way, you get all your spell slots.

Cast all your spells at 10:00am?
Foolish you. Now you get to wait until sunrise.

None of that requires 48 hours.

Beheld

2016-06-09, 12:30 PM

Beheld: you're ignoring a key thing re wizard spell prep "a wizard can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. Her base daily spell allotment is given on Table: The Wizard. In addition, she receives bonus spells per day if she has a high Intelligence score."
No matter how many times they rest, a wizard cannot exceed their spells per day in a day

What a wizard can do is leave slots open and (taking at least 15mins) prepare those slots at any point in the day

I'm not ignoring it. I am pointing out that because a day can range from 38 seconds to infinity years to never in length, that we should look in the rules for a definition of what a day is for the purpose of daily limits. And in the case of Wizards, it is resting for 8 hours then preparing spells, and for Clerics, it is a specific time of day.

You seem to want to misinterpret what I say to present an illogical conclusion. If you stop misinterpreting and misquoting, perhaps you will see that there is no illogical conclusion.

Specifically to Clerics; they can recharge their spells at a particular time of day (we'll say sunrise for this). If they miss sunrise, then they can do this as soon thereafter as possible.

No, I'm correctly interpreting what you say, and that interacts poorly with the rules that actually exist and that you don't know. Specifically: "If some event prevents a character from praying at the proper time, he must do so as soon as possible." Not that it is if some event stops them from praying, not if some event stops them from gaining spells.

So what actually happens is they pray at the correct time but get zero spells, because according to you, there is a magic 24 hour time limit that magically prevents them from getting spells (but doesn't prevent them from praying), so then they get no spells.

Cast all your spells at midnight?
Rest eight hours and renew in the morning.

...

Cast all your spells at 10:00am?
Foolish you. Now you get to wait until sunrise.

But according to you, they can't prepare spells at sunrise, because it has been 23 hours since they last prepared spells, and the magic 24 hour limit prevents them from preparing spells.

Gildedragon

2016-06-09, 12:37 PM

@beheld that second post you attribute to me isn't me, please do amend that... Though I do agree with the sentiment

And regardless of how long a day is,an eight hour rest does not define a day. If there is only one day in forever, then too bad, one only gets spells once. If a day is shorter than eight hours, too bad one must rest multiple days to get one's spells.

Barstro

2016-06-09, 12:58 PM

So what actually happens is they pray at the correct time but get zero spells, because according to you, there is a magic 24 hour time limit that magically prevents them from getting spells (but doesn't prevent them from praying), so then they get no spells.

But according to you, they can't prepare spells at sunrise, because it has been 23 hours since they last prepared spells, and the magic 24 hour limit prevents them from preparing spells.

This is the third time I am expressly stating that they CAN get their spells each and every sunrise (or as soon thereafter, if they are prevented from praying at sunrise).

Beheld

2016-06-09, 01:32 PM

@beheld that second post you attribute to me isn't me, please do amend that...

Fixed. Thank you.

And regardless of how long a day is,an eight hour rest does not define a day. If there is only one day in forever, then too bad, one only gets spells once. If a day is shorter than eight hours, too bad one must rest multiple days to get one's spells.

The point is that the DM or PCs can just decide to change day length mid game, so if you base day off actual day, instead of the 8 hour spells rule, then they will just go somewhere else where days are less than 8 hours.

This is the third time I am expressly stating that they CAN get their spells each and every sunrise (or as soon thereafter, if they are prevented from praying at sunrise).

And this is the third time I am expressly stating that they can get their spells only because there is no magic 24 hour limit, and if there was, they wouldn't get their spells. No matter how many times you say "But the 24 hour limit I made up doesn't apply in this one situation" it still remains true that the 24 hour limit you made up would prevent clerics from gaining spells back in 23 hours, which is how long it was since they last prepared spells.

Gildedragon

2016-06-09, 01:52 PM

Fixed. Thank you.

The point is that the DM or PCs can just decide to change day length mid game, so if you base day off actual day, instead of the 8 hour spells rule, then they will just go somewhere else where days are less than 8 hours.
How would the PCs change the day length. Also iirc words that aren't defined in the rules take their plain-english meaning; in which case day would be a 24ish hour period; or from sun-up/down to the next sun-up/down.

And this is the third time I am expressly stating that they can get their spells only because there is no magic 24 hour limit, and if there was, they wouldn't get their spells. No matter how many times you say "But the 24 hour limit I made up doesn't apply in this one situation" it still remains true that the 24 hour limit you made up would prevent clerics from gaining spells back in 23 hours, which is how long it was since they last prepared spells.
If I may intervene. Clerics get spells with the following conditions: 8hrs of rest + at or ASAP-after their set (1/day) prayer time happens. 1/24 hrs is another way of saying 1/day; and it isn't 23 hours if one counts from start of first preparation to start of first preparation (because clerics, like wizards, can leave unassigned slots)

But on original topic: a way to stop a wizard from preparing spells is to interrupt their rest every 2 hours. Each interruption adds one hour to the time they must rest to get their spells back. Or at the 6th hour interrupt once, then at the 7th, at the 8th and so on...

Barstro

2016-06-09, 02:15 PM

But on original topic: a way to stop a wizard from preparing spells is to interrupt their rest every 2 hours. Each interruption adds one hour to the time they must rest to get their spells back. Or at the 6th hour interrupt once, then at the 7th, at the 8th and so on...

Ouch. Not even I am that cruel. Besides, it just leads to constant use of RopeTrick.

Pretty sure the original topic was just to prevent "Easy Nova"-Rest-"Easy Nova"-Rest, which has been discussed at length with at least two different camps on if the Nova should be dissuaded against (Fight-Fight-Fight-Rest), or just up the difficulty to allow for Nova ("Hard Nova-Rest-"Hard Nova"-Rest).

Gildedragon

2016-06-09, 02:27 PM

Ouch. Not even I am that cruel. Besides, it just leads to constant use of RopeTrick.

Pretty sure the original topic was just to prevent "Easy Nova"-Rest-"Easy Nova"-Rest, which has been discussed at length with at least two different camps on if the Nova should be dissuaded against (Fight-Fight-Fight-Rest), or just up the difficulty to allow for Nova ("Hard Nova-Rest-"Hard Nova"-Rest).

Sure, use rope trick... As the inn around you catches fire because of a ill-secured shipment of alchemical reagents; or find yourself in the middle of an enemy camp; or find the forest is on fire because of a dragon with acid reflux or an erupting volcano...

A DM can always compel the PCs out of their hideyhole; trick is in doing it with grace, and minimal grief

Preventing the 15 minute day: unsuitable resting spots + flashing forward between encounters a couple hours + reasonable distance between towns and encounters + intown encounters + time sensitive missions (Sure you could rest more but you have only 3 days until the princess is sacrificed and the shrine is 2 days away as the crow flies, and it is full of dangers and traps; or a rival team/the villain is after the same knicknack as you)

Beheld

2016-06-09, 03:02 PM

How would the PCs change the day length. Also iirc words that aren't defined in the rules take their plain-english meaning; in which case day would be a 24ish hour period; or from sun-up/down to the next sun-up/down.

Day has like 8 plain english meanings, including 12 hours. As you discovered when you tried to say the plain language meaning of day, and then said three mutually contradictory things as your one definition.

PCs change the day in any of a thousand ways, by traveling in some direction, by casting teleport, by being on another plane which has a cube that rotates one complete turn every 38 seconds, by being on the plane of shadow which has no sun or planet and thus no day at all. Ect.

If I may intervene. Clerics get spells with the following conditions: 8hrs of rest + at or ASAP-after their set (1/day) prayer time happens. 1/24 hrs is another way of saying 1/day; and it isn't 23 hours if one counts from start of first preparation to start of first preparation (because clerics, like wizards, can leave unassigned slots)

Except if you are in the entire half of the year in which sunrise is less than 24 hours after the last sunrise, or if you traveled eastward literally any amount that day, in which case sunrise comes less than 24 hours after you last prepared spells. Or if you read the actual rules, and realize that they have to start praying 23 hours after they last prepared spells, and then they don't get their spells back. Or if you are in any location that doesn't have a sunrise.

Sure, use rope trick... As the inn around you catches fire because of a ill-secured shipment of alchemical reagents; or find yourself in the middle of an enemy camp; or find the forest is on fire because of a dragon with acid reflux or an erupting volcano...

A DM can always compel the PCs out of their hideyhole; trick is in doing it with grace, and minimal grief

Preventing the 15 minute day: unsuitable resting spots + flashing forward between encounters a couple hours + reasonable distance between towns and encounters + intown encounters + time sensitive missions (Sure you could rest more but you have only 3 days until the princess is sacrificed and the shrine is 2 days away as the crow flies, and it is full of dangers and traps; or a rival team/the villain is after the same knicknack as you)

And as I have said since literally my first post. You can certainly choose to kill your PCs and make your players hate you if you want. But you shouldn't. If the PCs are trying to rest, it's because they think that not resting is going to kill them, and they don't want to die. So they are going to rest, no matter what. Even if it means failing the quest, because dying also means failing the quest, even if it means waking up a Dragon that arbitrarily attacks and empty field for 6 hours straight for no reason, even if it mean that the town burns around them while they are safe in their hole.

Deadline

2016-06-09, 03:18 PM

If the PCs are trying to rest, it's because they think that not resting is going to kill them, and they don't want to die.

I'm not sure what you are basing this on. Could you clarify why you've taken this stance?

Beheld

2016-06-09, 03:33 PM

I'm not sure what you are basing this on. Could you clarify why you've taken this stance?

PCs have resources that they expend during fights, many character regain resources from resting. If, at a certain point in the day, they have something they want to do, but feel that, they do not have the resources to do that thing, and if they try, they will die, then they rest to regain resources.

So if the PCs still want to do a thing, and are not doing it because they are resting. Telling them they can't rest isn't going to make them do the thing, because doing the thing will get them killed, so they will just not do the thing at all, and instead devote more resources to making sure they can rest to get back to full resources so they can do the thing without dying.

Gildedragon

2016-06-09, 03:35 PM

Day has like 8 plain english meanings, including 12 hours. As you discovered when you tried to say the plain language meaning of day, and then said three mutually contradictory things as your one definition.

PCs change the day in any of a thousand ways, by traveling in some direction, by casting teleport, by being on another plane which has a cube that rotates one complete turn every 38 seconds, by being on the plane of shadow which has no sun or planet and thus no day at all. Ect.
such planes don't necessarily exist; travel to such world's is wholly up to DM interpretation. the duration of a day is, always, up to DM interpretation; PCs have no say in how long the day is. Though it is implied by the setting that Day is a universal measure (because clerics living in places like the outer planes, sigil, the world serpent inn, the elemental planes, the plane of shadow, and the underdark all regain spells though there is no "day" to speak of in many of them.

And I didn't say three contradictory things: I said: 24 hrs, sunrise to sunrise, and sunset to sunset (though I can see how the latter two may have been misunderstood by my abbreviation), all three cover the same(ish) amount of time.

Except if you are in the entire half of the year in which sunrise is less than 24 hours after the last sunrise, or if you traveled eastward literally any amount that day, in which case sunrise comes less than 24 hours after you last prepared spells. Or if you read the actual rules, and realize that they have to start praying 23 hours after they last prepared spells, and then they don't get their spells back. Or if you are in any location that doesn't have a sunrise. If one is going to apply realistic shortening and lengthening of the days: have the PCs sleep in, or be in the toilet, or otherwise occupied during that one overlap hour.

And as I have said since literally my first post. You can certainly choose to kill your PCs and make your players hate you if you want. But you shouldn't. If the PCs are trying to rest, it's because they think that not resting is going to kill them, and they don't want to die. So they are going to rest, no matter what.

Forcing them to not rest helps push tension and for certain games that is a key narrative element.
Also forcing them not to rest can show them they needn't be so conservative with their adventuring.

Deadline

2016-06-09, 03:37 PM

PCs have resources that they expend during fights, many character regain resources from resting. If, at a certain point in the day, they have something they want to do, but feel that, they do not have the resources to do that thing, and if they try, they will die, then they rest to regain resources.

So if the PCs still want to do a thing, and are not doing it because they are resting. Telling them they can't rest isn't going to make them do the thing, because doing the thing will get them killed, so they will just not do the thing at all, and instead devote more resources to making sure they can rest to get back to full resources so they can do the thing without dying.

The reason I ask is because I've very rarely seen this be the reason PCs stop to rest. Is it your assertion that this is the only (or main) reason that PCs choose to rest?

Beheld

2016-06-09, 03:51 PM

The reason I ask is because I've very rarely seen this be the reason PCs stop to rest. Is it your assertion that this is the only (or main) reason that PCs choose to rest?

You may have decided that's not the reason they are resting, but in fact, it totally is. If the PCs want to accomplish X, and think they can accomplish X without resting, then they just do X. They only rest because don't think the can accomplish X.

Now of course, constantly attacking the PCs whenever they try to rest makes them start resting earlier and earlier, because now, they know that accomplishing X isn't enough, they have to accomplish X and then also defeat the inevitable rest attack the DM will throw at them, so they are even more likely to rest.

But yes, I am contending that 100% of the time the PCs rest, it is either because they don't have a specific goal to accomplish, or they don't think they have the resources to accomplish the goal they do have.

such planes don't necessarily exist; travel to such world's is wholly up to DM interpretation. the duration of a day is, always, up to DM interpretation; PCs have no say in how long the day is.

You can certainly make up whatever nonsense you want and tell the players to get the hell out of your house if they disagree, but the rules actually do straight up say that the Astral Plane and Ethereal Planes exist, and the Inner Planes exist on every single campaign setting published by WotC (and probably in Golarian too). And each campaign setting has their own set of exterior planes, but Planescape, Greyhawk, and FR have Acheron, which has floating cubes that rotate at variable speeds that people live on.

And I didn't say three contradictory things: I said: 24 hrs, sunrise to sunrise, and sunset to sunset (though I can see how the latter two may have been misunderstood by my abbreviation), all three cover the same(ish) amount of time.

... Those are mutually contradictory definitions. Sunset to Sunset is different from Sunrise to Sunrise. Both of those are different from 24 hours. And of course, nothing about your three different mutually contradictory definitions makes "Sunrise to Sunset" not also a fourth mutually contradictory definition of day.

If one is going to apply realistic shortening and lengthening of the days: have the PCs sleep in, or be in the toilet, or otherwise occupied during that one overlap hour.

Except that they can't, because the have to sit for 25 hours waiting for the next sunrise, because the arbitrary 24 hours limit that the other poster made up prevents them from preparing spells at sunrise (but does not prevent them from praying, so does not trigger that part of the rules).

Also forcing them not to rest can show them they needn't be so conservative with their adventuring.

Or it could show them that their DM is a petulant **** who is going to have someone attack them every time they rest, so they will, instead of resting when they can't possibly face another encounter, they will rest when they can face one more encounter (because they know they will get attacked).

Deadline

2016-06-09, 04:02 PM

Gildedragon

2016-06-09, 04:15 PM

@beheld I take exception to being called petulant or a **** for having a playstyle different from yours (be it from saying: you've been up 3 hours, you are in no way tired enough to sleep another 8 hours; or from putting time limits to quests (soft: goblins will reinforce while you rest, or hard: the world will end if you don't stop the mage's ascention that happens in 2 days); or simply running a more resource-scarce campaign).

Furthermore while yes: a day, measured by the rising and setting of the sun, isn't precisely 24 hours, it is close enough that we established 24 hours as the time to measure it. Quibbling over precise durations of days is unhelpful to the extreme. It is like saying "well cold doesn't exist (it is the absence of heat) so the [cold] descriptor can't work". As to measuring from sunset or sunrise or from noon or from midnight: they are equivalent measures, covering a whole night and a day (I will concede there is ambiguity there, but that context makes it more reasonable to assume "day" there means the 24 hr period rather than the sunlight half thereof) and the only difference is cultural.

Furthermore it is clear that wizards can only cast so many spells in a day (regardless of the duration or measurement of it), and resting or not doesn't change that maximum.

Beheld

2016-06-09, 04:48 PM

My experience with the game (regardless of edition) is remarkably different from yours, particularly when it comes to published modules (as the OP mentions). I'll just say that I disagree with your assertion and stand by my suggestions up thread for the OP. Thank you for explaining your rationale.

Ah yes, the good old, "There are totally other reasons why Parties rest. I definitely won't name any, but I can assure you that these totally real and definitely not fake reasons definitely make up the majority of the times that players rest. Because the players don't want to accomplish their goals, they would prefer to waste time."

@beheld I take exception to being called petulant or a **** for having a playstyle different from yours

No one called you a petulant **** for anything. But learning that your DM is a petulant **** who will attack you when you rest is the most commonly learned lesson from DMs attacking players when they rest.

you've been up 3 hours, you are in no way tired enough to sleep another 8 hours

Good thing they don't need to sleep then.

Furthermore while yes: a day, measured by the rising and setting of the sun, isn't precisely 24 hours, it is close enough that we established 24 hours as the time to measure it. Quibbling over precise durations of days is unhelpful to the extreme. It is like saying "well cold doesn't exist (it is the absence of heat) so the [cold] descriptor can't work".

No, it's like pointing out that the cold descriptor is defined in the game, and that the spell limit is defined in the game. And so those are two things that are defined in the game, and therefore deviate from the "real" world.

Furthermore it is clear that wizards can only cast so many spells in a day (regardless of the duration or measurement of it), and resting or not doesn't change that maximum.

Except that day could be defined by 8 hours of rest.

Deadline

2016-06-09, 05:15 PM

Ah yes, the good old, "There are totally other reasons why Parties rest. I definitely won't name any, but I can assure you that these totally real and definitely not fake reasons definitely make up the majority of the times that players rest. Because the players don't want to accomplish their goals, they would prefer to waste time."

*shrug* (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20868435&postcount=14) You can ignore things I've said in favor of putting words in my mouth in order to manufacture all the outrage you want. No matter how you bait the hook, I'm not biting. I've perused your posting history here. Thanks for sharing your viewpoint.

Darth Ultron

2016-06-09, 05:43 PM

A classic adventure of mine, especially for people that have only ever played a ''type'' of the game, is the Lost in the Abyss Adventure. Toss the PC's into the Abyss and have fun. The Pc's want to rest in a cave...they had better make sure it's not a cave mimic. The PC's want to drink from a poll of water...better make sure it's not poison, or acid, or have a magic effect first. And so on....

Quertus

2016-06-09, 11:00 PM

You may have decided that's not the reason they are resting, but in fact, it totally is. If the PCs want to accomplish X, and think they can accomplish X without resting, then they just do X. They only rest because don't think the can accomplish X.

Now of course, constantly attacking the PCs whenever they try to rest makes them start resting earlier and earlier, because now, they know that accomplishing X isn't enough, they have to accomplish X and then also defeat the inevitable rest attack the DM will throw at them, so they are even more likely to rest.

But yes, I am contending that 100% of the time the PCs rest, it is either because they don't have a specific goal to accomplish, or they don't think they have the resources to accomplish the goal they do have.

Or it could show them that their DM is a petulant **** who is going to have someone attack them every time they rest, so they will, instead of resting when they can't possibly face another encounter, they will rest when they can face one more encounter (because they know they will get attacked).

IME, "you rest when you can no longer accomplish your objectives without resting" is not unusual. "Living" is usually one of your objectives. However, when the party mage is a whiny **** who wastes his spells for no reason, and wants to rest just because he's blown the best ones, you say No. If the mage doesn't learn to conserve his spells, you pitch the mage. If the player can't play mages any other way, you get the player to play... something else.

Also, waiting to rest until continuing would be lethal is itself lethal, IME. One random encounter (let alone one **** DM) later, and TPK. You rest when you estimate you are down to being able to handle X encounters, plus the trip out of the dungeon, where X varies from group to group, DM to DM, adventure to adventure. And if that schedule means that the world ends, well, time to look for a new world. :smalltongue: Because you could try to be all heroic, but the last 50 heroic parties all died.

Alternately, as soon as you've blown your spells, you suicide the character, to get a fresh one. And loot the body. Depends on the group... :smallconfused:

Crake

2016-06-09, 11:16 PM

They prepare at sunrise. So long as they rest 8 hours and then prepare at the next sunrise, it does not matter how many spells they cast prior to that rest. If they are otherwise occupied at sunrise, they get to prepare at the next available moment.

I feel like it's worth noting that clerics do not require a period of rest to prepare spells (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/divineSpells.htm) (second sentence under "Time of Day"), they do however have a recent casting limit, meaning any spells cast within 8 hours of their spell preparation time count toward spells cast for the coming day.

And no, if you prepare spells at midnight, you can't decide to rest 8 hours and prepare spells in the morning, you have to prepare spells at midnight and deal with the consequences of having cast spells within the last 8 hours. If you choose to instead go to sleep at midnight, you did not take the opportunity to prepare spells at the earliest possible chance you had, and do not get to prepare spells for that day.

Bucky

2016-06-09, 11:53 PM

As far as rest denial goes, my favorite scheme is an enemy scout group. The scouts normally just shadow the party in 24/7 shifts as long as they're in the wilderness. But if they notice the party with enough members asleep, they take some potshots with bows and then run. Pick a race with low-light vision, add class levels until they can sneak competently and give them the Run feat to escape with afterwards.

The nice thing about this setup is that the PCs can actually deal with it by catching or ditching the scouts somehow, but it doesn't give them any encounter XP until they do.

Malroth

2016-06-10, 12:10 AM

The more prone you are to ambushing parties while they rest the more the party will want to rest to recover spells sooner so that they can be sure they survive the random encounters. If you typicaly have them get attacked twice per rest then they will stop and rest when they think they can handle 3 more fights, If you have them get ambushed 3 times per rest then they'll stop when they think they can handle 4. The ONLY effective way to convince a sane person to willingly go into a life or death battle at less than 100% capability is if somone else is trying to beat them to their goal.

Barstro

2016-06-10, 07:13 AM

I feel like it's worth noting that clerics do not require a period of rest to prepare spells (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/divineSpells.htm) (second sentence under "Time of Day"), they do however have a recent casting limit, meaning any spells cast within 8 hours of their spell preparation time count toward spells cast for the coming day.
Thank you for pointing out the lack of a sleep requirement. I spent most of my time looking and debated the Wizard and did not notice that about the Cleric.

I think I mildly disagree about about "any spells cast within 8 hours of their spell preparation time count toward spells cast for the coming day"*. I tried to get the language in the SRD to unequivocally state that, but was unable to. To the left; the language in the SRD is poor enough that I cannot make it unequivocally support my view either. Since it would take about a page of writing to quote the SRD and explain my view, and I've gone way too far on a tangent from the original post (It's the difference between "prepare" and "fill", I'll just repeat that I disagree, but understand your view and would accept it if you were my DM.

*EDIT: I understand that is almost a direct quote, but the use of "preparation" seems to have a couple different meanings in those paragraphs and the fact that the SRD does not say "for the coming day" is where I take issue. Again, I take no issue with you, I take it with the way the SRD is written; your view is logical, I just have a slightly different stance.

And no, if you prepare spells at midnight, you can't decide to rest 8 hours and prepare spells in the morning, you have to prepare spells at midnight and deal with the consequences of having cast spells within the last 8 hours. If you choose to instead go to sleep at midnight, you did not take the opportunity to prepare spells at the earliest possible chance you had, and do not get to prepare spells for that day.
Wish you had kept things at "prepare at sunrise" so we could keep things apples to apples, but I think I'm reading it correctly. (Or maybe I wrote midnight when I didn't mean to in a prior post)

These are the long-studied priests of their gods. Since they do not need eight hours of sleep (thank you again), they need only take an hour at the appropriate time to prepare the slots. Such a priest of the order would certainly do whatever could be done to take that hour at the appropriate time. If that Cleric voluntarily chose to not prepare at the correct time, then I agree; said Cleric must wait until that time comes around again.

However, if the Cleric was prevented because his fiance's damn cat kept pawing at his face, then I think it was "prevented" and the Cleric can spend that hour as soon as the distraction can be removed.

Beheld

2016-06-10, 07:51 AM

Thank you for pointing out the lack of a sleep requirement. I spent most of my time looking and debated the Wizard and did not notice that about the Cleric.

I think I mildly disagree about about "any spells cast within 8 hours of their spell preparation time count toward spells cast for the coming day"*. I tried to get the language in the SRD to unequivocally state that, but was unable to. To the left; the language in the SRD is poor enough that I cannot make it unequivocally support my view either. Since it would take about a page of writing to quote the SRD and explain my view, and I've gone way too far on a tangent from the original post (It's the difference between "prepare" and "fill", I'll just repeat that I disagree, but understand your view and would accept it if you were my DM.

*EDIT: I understand that is almost a direct quote, but the use of "preparation" seems to have a couple different meanings in those paragraphs and the fact that the SRD does not say "for the coming day" is where I take issue. Again, I take no issue with you, I take it with the way the SRD is written; your view is logical, I just have a slightly different stance.

Of course the rules don't say "for the coming day" because a day is defined by the 8 hours reset period, that's why your daily spells cast in the last 8 hours can't be reprepared, and that's why you can, as a Cleric, reprepare spells at sunrise even when it hasn't been 24 hours since you last prepared spells.

Gruftzwerg

2016-06-10, 08:08 AM

There is nothing wrong with a lil guidance. Pick one player and:

- tell him that he feels uncomfortable to run again and again in the cold uncomfortable tundra (pick one with low Con and/or unfamiliar with the climate.)

- tell him that he thinks it's a bad idea to leave the dungeon. Some other may loot it in the time. The greedy Rogue/Dwarf doesn't wants to leave.

From the "Players" perspective, the PC can handle any uncomfortable situation/work you can think of... if you the DM don't intervene, things will get out of control. A player can always say that his PC do "this and that", but it's up to you to say when he had enough, or when he is as his limits. Resting time is one of the main problems here. Ever had a party who tried to cheat and didn't sleep enough?

you could even just let one of them catch a cold and just feel uncomfortable with the idea (no penalties unless they take the trip outside in the cold).

If the players aren't stupid, any kind of asocial or have a personal grudge against the DM, they will get that you want to lead them and play it out ;)

Quertus

2016-06-10, 09:19 AM

Crake

2016-06-10, 10:09 AM

I think I mildly disagree about about "any spells cast within 8 hours of their spell preparation time count toward spells cast for the coming day"*. I tried to get the language in the SRD to unequivocally state that, but was unable to. To the left; the language in the SRD is poor enough that I cannot make it unequivocally support my view either. Since it would take about a page of writing to quote the SRD and explain my view, and I've gone way too far on a tangent from the original post (It's the difference between "prepare" and "fill", I'll just repeat that I disagree, but understand your view and would accept it if you were my DM.

*EDIT: I understand that is almost a direct quote, but the use of "preparation" seems to have a couple different meanings in those paragraphs and the fact that the SRD does not say "for the coming day" is where I take issue. Again, I take no issue with you, I take it with the way the SRD is written; your view is logical, I just have a slightly different stance.

Can you explain what your stance is in this regard? I cannot see it as meaning anything other than "If you cast any spells within 8 hours before spell preparation, those spell slots are not refreshed". I imagine this is to prevent you from waiting until the very last moment to burn all your spell slots and then re-prepare spells, drastically reducing your window of opportunity to be ambushed unlike a wizard. I suppose you could think of those 8 hours before you prepare spells as being part of the "coming day"?

But yeah, I'd like to know how you interpret that, because I cannot actually see any other way to read it (just to confirm, we're talking about the section under "Recent casting limit" correct?)

Barstro

2016-06-10, 10:25 AM

(just to confirm, we're talking about the section under "Recent casting limit" correct?)

I think so.

My desk is covered right now, so I'll see how much I can get done and explain my view as best I can. Like I said, it comes down to D&D being written by gamers instead of attorneys.

Barstro

2016-06-10, 12:34 PM

I wound up writing the middle part first and then doing more at the beginning. Hopefully it isn't too disjointed and the Spoilers are in logical places.

I'll gladly field any questions in regards to clarifying what I mean.

What is the definition of "prepare"?
Answer that yourself and then see if WotC consistently uses that same definition in the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/divineSpells.htm#preparingDivineSpells). I submit that they do not, and that is the basis for this.

Preparing Divine Spells
Divine spellcasters prepare their spells in largely the same manner as wizards do, but with a few differences. The relevant ability for divine spells is Wisdom. To prepare a divine spell, a character must have a Wisdom score of 10 + the spell’s level. Likewise, bonus spells are based on Wisdom.

Time of Day
A divine spellcaster chooses and prepares spells ahead of time, just as a wizard does. However, a divine spellcaster does not require a period of rest to prepare spells. Instead, the character chooses a particular part of the day to pray and receive spells. The time is usually associated with some daily event. If some event prevents a character from praying at the proper time, he must do so as soon as possible. If the character does not stop to pray for spells at the first opportunity, he must wait until the next day to prepare spells.

Spell Selection and Preparation
A divine spellcaster selects and prepares spells ahead of time through prayer and meditation at a particular time of day. The time required to prepare spells is the same as it is for a wizard (1 hour), as is the requirement for a relatively peaceful environment. A divine spellcaster does not have to prepare all his spells at once. However, the character’s mind is considered fresh only during his or her first daily spell preparation, so a divine spellcaster cannot fill a slot that is empty because he or she has cast a spell or abandoned a previously prepared spell.

Divine spellcasters do not require spellbooks. However, such a character’s spell selection is limited to the spells on the list for his or her class. Clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers have separate spell lists. A cleric also has access to two domains determined during his character creation. Each domain gives him access to a domain spell at each spell level from 1st to 9th, as well as a special granted power. With access to two domain spells at each spell level—one from each of his two domains—a cleric must prepare, as an extra domain spell, one or the other each day for each level of spell he can cast. If a domain spell is not on the cleric spell list, it can be prepared only in a domain spell slot.

Spell Slots
The character class tables show how many spells of each level a character can cast per day.

These openings for daily spells are called spell slots. A spellcaster always has the option to fill a higher-level spell slot with a lower level spell. A spellcaster who lacks a high enough ability score to cast spells that would otherwise be his or her due still gets the slots but must fill them with spells of lower level.

Recent Casting Limit
As with arcane spells, at the time of preparation any spells cast within the previous 8 hours count against the number of spells that can be prepared.

Spontaneous Casting of Cure and Inflict Spells
A good cleric (or a cleric of a good deity) can spontaneously cast a cure spell in place of a prepared spell of the same level or higher, but not in place of a domain spell. An evil cleric (or a cleric of an evil deity) can spontaneously cast an inflict spell in place of a prepared spell (one that is not a domain spell) of the same level or higher. Each neutral cleric of a neutral deity either spontaneously casts cure spells like a good cleric or inflict spells like an evil one, depending on which option the player chooses when creating the character. The divine energy of the spell that the cure or inflict spell substitutes for is converted into the cure or inflict spell as if that spell had been prepared all along.

In order to clarify my language through examples, I will consider a Cleric with a single Level-1 Spell Slot and a single Level-2 Spell Slot. This Cleric's important time of day is sunrise.

This comes down to conflicting definitions of events in the SRD
To prepare a divine spell, a character must have a Wisdom score of 10 + the spell’s level
A spellcaster always has the option to fill a higher-level spell slot with a lower level spell
A spellcaster who lacks a high enough ability score to cast spells that would otherwise be his or her due STILL GETS THE SLOTS but must fill them with spells of lower level.

Under the above, it appears that one "Prepares" spells (named spells), since we have the WIS restriction.
However, that is separate from "Spell Slot". A Cleric with Wis of 11 can have a first and a second level "Spell Slot", but can only "fill" spells of Level-1 in them.
Somehow, "prepare" is not the same as "fill".

chooses and prepares spells ahead of time, just as a wizard does.
selects and prepares spells ahead of time through prayer and meditation at a particular time of day.
A divine spellcaster DOES NOT HAVE TO PREPARE ALL HIS SPELLS AT ONCE.
the character’s mind is considered fresh only during his or her first daily spell preparation

"Choose" and "Select" seem to have the same meaning, whatever that might be. However, that meaning must be different then "prepare", or "fill"

So, we have "prepare" which means to actually put a named spell into a "Spell Slot". Fine.
But what is the term that makes the "Spell Slot" available at sunrise? Is it "choose"? Is it "select"? All we know is that it cannot be "prepare" because "prepare" can be done at some time of the day other than sunrise.
How about it being the phrase "first daily spell preparation"? That's fine, but that means we have the following definitions and the fact that there is a similar word needs to be ignored;
"First daily spell preparation" is getting ALL spell slots ready for spells (regardless of Wis)
"Preparation" is placing a spell into a slot (spell level dependent on Wis)

Again; one Cleric with two spells slots (Level-1 and Level-2)
While somewhat unwritten, as far as I can tell, I think we can all agree that if the Cleric casts both spells at noon, he will not be able to cast any spells until at least after his hour of prayer at sunrise. The SRD seems to call this "casting"

I call this state as both slots are "Spent"

Upon proper praying for an hour, the Cleric can fill both spots with spells. For this scenario, it will be a Level-1 and a Level-2 spell. The SRD seems to call this "Selects and Prepares" This is the important part; I think "Selects" needs to have meaning.

I call this state as both slots are "Filled"

However, that Cleric "spellcaster does not have to prepare all his spells at once". If he chooses to not prepare spells, they he can do so at a later time (taking 15 minutes to an hour).

I call this state as both slots are "Open".

This part of the SRD is where I have a problem, and I'll discuss it later.

So, I consider the life-cycle of the "spell slots"
"Spent" – cannot be used in any way shape or form.
"Open" – Cleric has prayed at the correct time and the slot can take a spell
"Filled" – A spell has been assigned to the slot and can be cast. Once cast, the slot is "Spent"

Again, if a Cleric casts both spells at Noon, his slots are "Spent". They will be "Open" after his prayer and can be "Filled" either during that same prayer or at some other time during the day.

I believe that everyone agrees with that last above paragraph in the spoiler.

Here is where I think WotC used poor wording;
At sunrise, the Cleric can "Select and Prepare" spells. If they use two different words, the words should have two different meanings. "Select", IMO, means actually choosing the spell (by name, if you will). If that's the case, then "Prepare" refers to the spell slot. I note that a definition of "Prepare" is made by referencing Wizards; "The time required to prepare spells is the same as it is for a wizard (1 hour), as is the requirement for a relatively peaceful environment"

I feel that WotC should have had this sentence corrected; "A divine spellcaster does not have to SELECT all his spells at once. However, the character’s mind is considered fresh only during his or her first daily spell preparation, so a divine spellcaster cannot fill a slot that is empty because he or she has cast a spell or abandoned a previously prepared spell." Note: there is no definition of "abandoned".

Before I get into that, I pose this question and give my answer; it's part of my logic.
Q. If a Cleric has both slots "Filled", but did not cast any spells prior to sunrise, can he change the spells in those slots as part of his initial daily prayer?
I believe the answer is "yes".

I can come up with only two definitions for "abandoned" that make sense. Either it means a spell slot that was "Filled" prior to prayer that the Cleric now wants to change, or it means utilizing the Spontaneous Casting feature. If it means the first one, then Clerics cannot change spots that were "Filled" prior to praying, which goes against my question and answer above. If it means the second definition, then it is just another way of saying that the slot was used to "cast", and everything still makes sense.

I still think we all agree on the final paragraph in the above spoiler.

Here is where my view comes in. I'll explain as best I can so you understand my view. If you do not share it, then you simply have a different definition of the rules than I do and I cannot persuade you otherwise.

The interaction between spells cast within eight hours of praying. "at the time of preparation any spells cast within the previous 8 hours count against the number of spells that can be prepared."

That is where I feel it is written incorrectly. I think that spells cast within eight hours simply creates a different form of spell-slot "Open, but cannot be used yet". "Open", because the slot was part of the initial prayer, "but cannot be used yet" because a spell was used from that spot too recently.

To go back to the beginning of the post;
"Recent Casting Limit
As with arcane spells, at the time of preparation any spells cast within the previous 8 hours count against the number of spells that can be prepared."

"Preparation" means "choosing the spell by name to put into a slot". The Cleric cannot put the spell into the open slot until eight hours have passed since that spot was last used provided that use was before the "first daily spell preparation" at sunrise.

The above situation allows the Cleric to still get to cast spells from both slots a single time each between sunrises. That situation looks like this;

Cleric casts both spells at 4:00am
Both slots are "Spent"
Cleric prays at sunrise (6:00am)
Both slots are "Open"
Cleric must wait until at least noon to "fill" (prepare) the slot.
Then both slots are "Filled" and the Cleric can use them before sunrise.

Elder_Basilisk

2016-06-10, 12:49 PM

The big reason why parties shouldn't rest after every encounter: a dynamic world.

Maybe another party comes in a clears out the dungeon of all its treasure and all they find is a couple copper pieces that fell out the bag and blood splatter from the monsters. This won't be appropriate in a lot of scenarios but it will be in some.

Maybe the bad guys finish what they wanted to do and leave. They were looking for the McGuffin of Doom. They found it and took it back to the Evil Overlord. They were completing the sacrifice of 40 virgins to open the world gate? The completed it and opened the world gate.

Maybe the bad guys fortify up. Abandon their non-defensible positions, concentrate their forces, set traps, and prepare for attack.

Maybe the bad guys counter-attack. They make some deals to consolidate their forces from rooms 1A to 57Z, set the hell hounds to track the PCs back to their camp and all attack the PCs in their sleep.

Depending upon the bad guys in question, maybe they just harrass the PCs with nightmare spells while they attempt to rest.

Or maybe there's a time limit on the PCs' side. The PCs are clearing out the necropolis of doom and traps, but they need to find the McGuffin in 3 days or the world gate will open and their city will be doomed.

tomandtish

2016-06-10, 03:32 PM

I'm going to second Immabozo's suggestion of a time crunch. Also, the world doesn't stand still while the PCs recuperate. Did they delve partway into that Goblin warren before retreating back to the nearby town to rest? Do you think the Goblins won't retaliate that evening and raid the town? What about their dungeon delving that killed a few cult members and a pet monster before they retreated to the dungeon entrance and sealed the door so they could rest? The surviving cult members are going to mobilize and either pursue, or reinforce their defenses, meaning the next fight is going to be way harder than if the party had continued to blitz through their unprepared defenses.

Basically, if they are trivializing every challenge by hitting it fully prepared and with their biggest guns, up the challenges. Have realistic consequences to the ridiculous 15 minute adventuring day. Because while it's possible that they are resting to avoid character death, it's also entirely possible that they are just taking full advantage of you letting them face-roll encounters.

Dynamic world is a natural solution - spending time in any which way in a dynamic world usually comes at a cost. Dungeons with ecologies, roaming creatures, active opposing parties, dangerous rests, moving events. Players resting means the Ritual of Terrible Evil is finished and they have to face substantially greater odds, or on sufficiently high levels the world is ****ed. Or perhaps the bad guy no longer needs the princess and she's now imprisoned and their real quest will become freedoming her. Or perhaps nothing that concerns the PCs is particularly going on and it doesn't really matter; depends on the state of affairs.

The whole intent behind the balance for casters was supposed to be the limit on spells per day. Blow through them too quick and you are left without power later on. Unfortunately then along came the (very obvious) idea of fight until the casters are out of spells, then go rest up.

Deadline and Eldariel sum up the response to that quite nicely however. Remember that it is a two-way street, and was recognized even back in Advanced (1E) with the Giants series.

From G1

If time permits, the giants will organize traps, ambushes, and last ditch defenses against continuing forays into their stronghold. You must work up such cases and plans according to existing circumstances, but assuming clever advice to the giants.

And from G3

As soon as the party strikes and then retires, the attack will be assessed and counter-measures taken.

It’s important to remember that many opponents are as smart (if not smarter) than the PCs. So why would they let them just waltz back in, especially when it was obvious that they didn’t drive them away versus the PCs deciding to recharge.

So by all means let them go back to town to rest up. But the area is not going to stay stagnant while they are gone, and is probably going to be much tougher than it was originally because now the opposition is assuming they are coming. Plans will change, traps will be set, guards will increase, spells will be chosen based on what they know of the party’s abilities, etc.

Apophis775

2016-06-22, 04:01 PM

Thanks everyone for all the suggestions.

I talked with them, and they did realize they were relying on the town much more than necessary. One of the concerns they had, was that they kept getting diseased by dire rats which they felt the need to constantly hunt down due to a "slight" upon the group from early in the campaign by a rando dire rat that diseased the druids animal companion. They just finished the campaign, and are preparing for the next campaign.

One of the group-members, the one who was more worried about XP, also explained why he was concerned with XP. Apparently, he didn't like that the group had to stop as much either, and plans on spending a chunk of his XP on crafting magical items to assist the party using Create Wonderous Item (Thread on that is located here: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?492367-Some-Clarification-on-quot-Craft-Wonderous-Item-quot&p=20921119#post20921119 ).

I'm not as worried about XP anymore, but I'm still a little worried they might have trouble in the next part of the campaign, but if they create the bracelet of lesser vigor I'll be less worried (in the other thread).