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shadow_archmagi
2016-06-08, 06:45 AM
In old school dungeon design, you don't worry about appropriate challenges, because there's a natural sorting mechanism. The first part of the dungeon is always kobolds or skeletons or something small and sad, and then each staircase yields one degree more powerful monsters, until you're in the all-balrogs-all-the-time zone. (Of course, this is just a guideline. You can make a dungeon with kobolds living just one floor above a dragon, or throw an ogre necromancer in with the skeletons on the first layer.)

This gives the players a lot of power. If you want bigger challenges, go find them. If things are too scary, back up a little.


What's bugging me is that I don't know why bigger monsters are further down. There must be some universal force compelling everything underground, and the weakest monsters are condemned to the highest level because they're not tough enough to displace anyone else. Is it that the surface world is scary? That makes sense for mind flayers, but not for dragons. Is it that there's something pulsing at the center of the earth that whispers dark secrets to the minds of beasts and men alike?

DigoDragon
2016-06-08, 07:14 AM
I've heard various Japanese legends about villages that offer food to a dragon so that it will guard their treasure from bandits, and then the dragon grows so fat it can't leave it's lair. The treasure's protected, but the dragon isn't going anywhere (and the treasure is stuck behind the dragon) so the villagers are out their valuables. Perhaps over time the lair grows outward around the fat dragon. Might make an interesting explanation for why the biggest monster is at the heart of the dungeon. Plus, you throw the legend at the PCs as an adventure hook to go find this treasure.

Strigon
2016-06-08, 07:54 AM
Usually, the best loot is also further down.
This means that most creatures who like loot (dragons, liches, and the like) try to go down as far as possible. You could make the argument that other creatures are somehow drawn to the magical power further down.

What this means is that each monster tries to go down as far as it can, without getting eaten by something bigger. Something very powerful can make it all the way down, and it rests in the heart of the dungeon. Then the second biggest comes in, breezes through the first few levels, but can't kick out the denizen of the centre, so he settles for the next level up. This continues until all levels are spoken for, by progressively tougher monsters.

OldTrees1
2016-06-08, 08:11 AM
The biggest monsters are at the bottom because the passages get too small for them to ascend further. Same principle as why Elder Evils are preceded by lesser monstrosities, that being that lesser monstrosities can slip over to our world easier.

goto124
2016-06-08, 09:20 AM
What's bugging me is that I don't know why bigger monsters are further down. There must be some universal force compelling everything underground, and the weakest monsters are condemned to the highest level because they're not tough enough to displace anyone else. Is it that the surface world is scary? That makes sense for mind flayers, but not for dragons. Is it that there's something pulsing at the center of the earth that whispers dark secrets to the minds of beasts and men alike?

When the higher-level creatures get up to fight, they want an actual challenge. Because after about the hundredth time getting up to 1-hit KO a bunch of level 1 adventurers, wouldn't you too get sick of it?

I like Strigon's idea though! It means the monsters themselves are more or less adventurers too...

Murk
2016-06-08, 09:56 AM
The comic series Donjon (Dungeon in English I think) features a big tower plus dungeon, and all the monsters that live there. The owner of the Donjon gathers all kinds of monsters there, and pays them regular wages.

They make a profit by slaying adventurers.
The business model is simple: the Donjon is filled with loot, which means that adventurers come there, carrying all their magic weapons and relics and whatnots. The first levels are filled with easy monsters, to give them a sense of victory. Sure, they take some loot, but they always get cocky, and once they come down to the lower levels, eventually the stronger monsters kill the adventurers, and all the loot they gathered so far ends up in the Donjon again. The profits fill the Donjon further and pay for the costs of the deceased low-level monsters.

shadow_archmagi
2016-06-08, 09:57 AM
When the higher-level creatures get up to fight, they want an actual challenge. Because after about the hundredth time getting up to 1-hit KO a bunch of level 1 adventurers, wouldn't you too get sick of it?

I like Strigon's idea though! It means the monsters themselves are more or less adventurers too...

It does create the question of "Why is the best loot at the bottom" though.

hymer
2016-06-08, 10:11 AM
It does create the question of "Why is the best loot at the bottom" though.

Gravity???

the_david
2016-06-08, 10:48 AM
The dungeon levels with the most traffic will have the weakest monsters. As you go farther down (or up) you will encounter more powerful monsters. The stronger monsters have already eliminated the weaker monsters for you, and gathered up their possesions in a neat stack of loot.

Thinker
2016-06-08, 11:16 AM
A dungeon is a place to imprison someone. Maybe the dungeon was built to contain the big bad. The larger creatures are either guardians or minions of the sealed creature. If the party fails, the evil might be released...

Prime32
2016-06-08, 11:30 AM
I've heard various Japanese legends about villages that offer food to a dragon so that it will guard their treasure from bandits, and then the dragon grows so fat it can't leave it's lair. The treasure's protected, but the dragon isn't going anywhere (and the treasure is stuck behind the dragon) so the villagers are out their valuables. Perhaps over time the lair grows outward around the fat dragon. Might make an interesting explanation for why the biggest monster is at the heart of the dungeon. Plus, you throw the legend at the PCs as an adventure hook to go find this treasure.
Speaking of Japan...

It's a common idea in modern fantasy that dungeons actually grow (whether naturally or artificially), and either attract or create monsters by themselves. That is, a dungeon starts with just a boss monster and expands outwards, and its power grows weaker as it gets further from the core.

Telonius
2016-06-08, 12:02 PM
It's a pretty common theme in mythology - at least for the last few thousand years - for the ouranic (sky-based) deities to be seen as the pinnacle of perfection, and the chthonic (underground) deities to be the evil or dangerous ones. Norse mythology is particularly clear on that, with the various realms getting progressively better or more noble as you ascend, and progressively worse or more dangerous as you descend. It shows up all over the place in fictional literature, too. The Balrog in Moria, Cthulhu in his underwater city, HG Wells' Morlocks. At least a few active religions (which will not be mentioned per forum rules) have similar setups.

Gravity does have a little bit to do with it, if only metaphorically. The spirit, being (supposedly) the purest thing, would ascend to the heavens; the purer it is, the higher it rises. Matter, being (supposedly) base and evil, descends. The more evil, the "heavier" it's weighed down.

Fumble Jack
2016-06-08, 12:34 PM
Another concept that can be done, the big bad of the dungeon, dragon/lich etc...sees abandoned dungeon, decides to make it it's lair, while it's young or not at it's full potential. It's spread the rumors of a truly terrifyingbeast/creature/denizen at the heart of the dungeon. Original bottom lair dungeon settles in, while other monsters come in seeking security and safety due to said rumor. The much weaker monsters at the upper levels may even venerate the creature at the bottom lair and are fearful of what they may see as the creature's guardians on the lower levels. While the creature that started the rumor originally, gains their power over time.

RazorChain
2016-06-08, 01:07 PM
In old school dungeon design, you don't worry about appropriate challenges, because there's a natural sorting mechanism. The first part of the dungeon is always kobolds or skeletons or something small and sad, and then each staircase yields one degree more powerful monsters, until you're in the all-balrogs-all-the-time zone. (Of course, this is just a guideline. You can make a dungeon with kobolds living just one floor above a dragon, or throw an ogre necromancer in with the skeletons on the first layer.)

This gives the players a lot of power. If you want bigger challenges, go find them. If things are too scary, back up a little.


What's bugging me is that I don't know why bigger monsters are further down. There must be some universal force compelling everything underground, and the weakest monsters are condemned to the highest level because they're not tough enough to displace anyone else. Is it that the surface world is scary? That makes sense for mind flayers, but not for dragons. Is it that there's something pulsing at the center of the earth that whispers dark secrets to the minds of beasts and men alike?

I think you are asking yourself the wrong question! Why are all of those dungeons, who built them and for what purpose? Why do those monsters inhabit them? Why do these monsters cohabit together? Where do they get all that treasure from? Why do the first dungeons the PC's raid always contain low level monsters and then get progressively stronger as the PC's level up? Why isn't there like a beholder in the first dungeon with all those goblins? Why isn't there a holy avenger in the first dungeon the PC's enter?

When you can answer these questions in a reasonably logical manner then we can discuss where the boss monster should be.

Strigon
2016-06-09, 10:40 AM
Gravity???

A few factors; if the dungeon is artificial, then the most valuable items are logically found in the most secure location - that would be the deepest section.
Gravity is another; all it takes is one slip to land that magic sword on the next level down, where it's now guarded by something stronger than you.

Finally, anyone who dies clearing the tomb adds their equipment to the level where they died. Stronger people with better items naturally make it deeper before dying.

goto124
2016-06-09, 10:52 AM
It's a common idea in modern fantasy that dungeons actually grow (whether naturally or artificially), and either attract or create monsters by themselves. That is, a dungeon starts with just a boss monster and expands outwards, and its power grows weaker as it gets further from the core.

https://barrierpeaksrpg.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/lurker-above.jpg
http://www.therobotsvoice.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/trapper.jpg
http://66.media.tumblr.com/0cd5a08cf6a9dddc8c247e3ffa8cd432/tumblr_o1iqeilZDv1ro2bqto1_500.jpg

Democratus
2016-06-09, 11:20 AM
A dungeon delve is a narrative structure.

To maintain the cinematic/literary flow of the story monsters and challenges get tougher as you proceed deeper into a dungeon.

Mastikator
2016-06-09, 11:43 AM
In old school dungeon design, you don't worry about appropriate challenges, because there's a natural sorting mechanism. The first part of the dungeon is always kobolds or skeletons or something small and sad, and then each staircase yields one degree more powerful monsters, until you're in the all-balrogs-all-the-time zone. (Of course, this is just a guideline. You can make a dungeon with kobolds living just one floor above a dragon, or throw an ogre necromancer in with the skeletons on the first layer.)

This gives the players a lot of power. If you want bigger challenges, go find them. If things are too scary, back up a little.


What's bugging me is that I don't know why bigger monsters are further down. There must be some universal force compelling everything underground, and the weakest monsters are condemned to the highest level because they're not tough enough to displace anyone else. Is it that the surface world is scary? That makes sense for mind flayers, but not for dragons. Is it that there's something pulsing at the center of the earth that whispers dark secrets to the minds of beasts and men alike?

There is. Difficulty pacing.

ClintACK
2016-06-09, 12:17 PM
A dungeon is a place to imprison someone. Maybe the dungeon was built to contain the big bad. The larger creatures are either guardians or minions of the sealed creature. If the party fails, the evil might be released...

I like this idea.

Legend: A powerful demon is imprisoned in the heart of a mountain. (Is the imprisonment spell weakening? Will it be released on the next lunar eclipse unless intrepid heroes can fight their way past its minions and kill its reformed body?) Its minions are trapped with it, with the strength of the binding proportionate to the evil magic of the minion. So mindless zombies wander out of the mountain every once in a while. Perhaps one invisible imp has escaped to bedevil the townsfolk. And as you journey deeper into the caves you encounter higher and higher CR monsters.


The comic series Donjon (Dungeon in English I think) features a big tower plus dungeon, and all the monsters that live there. The owner of the Donjon gathers all kinds of monsters there, and pays them regular wages.

They make a profit by slaying adventurers.
The business model is simple: the Donjon is filled with loot, which means that adventurers come there, carrying all their magic weapons and relics and whatnots. The first levels are filled with easy monsters, to give them a sense of victory. Sure, they take some loot, but they always get cocky, and once they come down to the lower levels, eventually the stronger monsters kill the adventurers, and all the loot they gathered so far ends up in the Donjon again. The profits fill the Donjon further and pay for the costs of the deceased low-level monsters.

But I *love* this idea. The Donjon as a business.

Alternately, imagine a mining town where the mines are tapped out. Jobs are gone, the farms were only ever subsistence-level in the rocky soil. Long slow decline, and then -- disaster! A dragon moves into the abandoned mines, preying on the few supply caravans that still wind their way up to the dying town.

But wait, would-be-heroes come to fight the dragon -- and spend a king's ransom throwing money around in the tavern and buying up supplies and tasking the local craftsmen to repair their armor and make harpoons and carts for the imagined loot. The would-be-heroes are killed, of course, but the town is living large for months on the coin they spent passing through.

Fast forward a few years... and the town is herding sheep to feed the dragon. And holding an annual spring Dragonfest where would-be-heroes can come and fight the dragon, adding their weapons and corpses to the Dragon's hoard and spending their coin at the local fair. Minstrels come from a thousand leagues away to watch a dragon fight and compose songs. The idle rich come for the entertainment, and spend money like mad.

Dragonfest! Prove yourself in the general melee to earn your way to the arena. Prove yourself in the arena to earn the right to fight the dragon. Days and days of lower level encounters building up to the boss fight, to the acclaim of the crowd.

Âmesang
2016-06-09, 05:49 PM
https://barrierpeaksrpg.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/lurker-above.jpg
http://www.therobotsvoice.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/trapper.jpg
http://66.media.tumblr.com/0cd5a08cf6a9dddc8c247e3ffa8cd432/tumblr_o1iqeilZDv1ro2bqto1_500.jpg
https://www.schadenfreudestudios.com/backup/pictures/indent.gif"The tale of the Third Era of the Dark Ages is told by Iolo the Bard wherein Lord British, sovereign of an incipient empire in the land of Sosaria, called forth through time and space for Heroes of the People to assemble. Four diverse adventurers answered this clarion call. To them fell the geas of the Doom of Exodus. Long they labored on the trail of the mysterious Exodus, through many a deep dungeon which seared their souls. To this day, each member of that team bears the marks of their journey. With the aid of the mystical Time Lord they were successful in bypassing the Great Earth Serpent and gaining access to Exodus' island fortress. The very bricks of the fortress rose up against them, and great is the Bard's tale of their struggle to reach their mortal foe. Of the final confrontation not one of them will speak, save to say that the evil is gone from this plane…"

DigoDragon
2016-06-10, 06:34 AM
*stuff*

So how does one put a dungeon on a diet? :smalltongue:

Jay R
2016-06-10, 07:55 AM
I once decided that there was a complete underworld, all the way down to the demons of Hell at the bottom.

The monsters afraid of demons moved up away from the lowest levels. Then monsters afraid of those moved on up further. The trolls moved higher to escape them, the ogres moved up to avoid ogres, the orc fled upard to avoid ogres, etc.

Fundamentally, this explanation doesn't work either.

At some point you have to stop asking the unanswerable questions, or you will arrive at the only possible final conclusion - the monsters and treasures were carefully placed in the dungeons by some alien other-dimensional entity called a "Dungeon Master" so characters could conquer them and slowly grow in power and wealth.

DigoDragon
2016-06-10, 08:25 AM
At some point you have to stop asking the unanswerable questions, or you will arrive at the only possible final conclusion - the monsters and treasures were carefully placed in the dungeons by some alien other-dimensional entity called a "Dungeon Master" so characters could conquer them and slowly grow in power and wealth.

Hmm, you know the idea does actually work for an adventure modeled after the game Diablo-- The titular demon creating a dungeon where only the strongest, most cunning adventurer can reach the bottom. At which point he takes over their body and leaves the dungeon to rule the world with all the might and wealth that adventurer amassed.

Wardog
2016-06-10, 03:01 PM
the weakest monsters are condemned to the highest level because they're not tough enough to displace anyone else. Is it that the surface world is scary? That makes sense for mind flayers, but not for dragons.

Of course.

The surface is where Adventurers come from.

TheThan
2016-06-10, 04:13 PM
Gravity???

it sifts down through the layers?

like gold panning really. the heaviest material (gold) goes to the bottom of the pan while the lighter materials skims off the top and out of the gold pan.

kraftcheese
2016-06-10, 05:11 PM
it sifts down through the layers?

like gold panning really. the heaviest material (gold) goes to the bottom of the pan while the lighter materials skims off the top and out of the gold pan.

Lots of people dropping their magic swords down little gaps in the rocks and into little underground streams I guess?

Jay R
2016-06-10, 08:19 PM
What's bugging me is that I don't know why bigger monsters are further down. There must be some universal force compelling everything underground, and the weakest monsters are condemned to the highest level because they're not tough enough to displace anyone else. Is it that the surface world is scary?

The surface world isn't scary, it's too bright and too hot. Powerful monsters can make their home down in the nice cool dark. Less powerful have to give up the cool and the darkness for safety from the big boys.

But I repeat: there is no in-world explanation for the fact that dungeons are laid out for the benefit of the ]adventurers. [I[The entire world exists solely for the benefit of a single party of adventurers[/I].

Otherwise we'd all be designing world that we don't let players play in.

Cluedrew
2016-06-11, 08:34 PM
Well, first off I agree with those who say you have to use the willing suspension of disbelief a little bit. But the very existence of most dungeons requires that so it should be OK.

Another plausible, if the ultimate monster is intelligent, explanation is that there the big monster wanted a place to rest, plot and be safe. So it found or built an underground dungeon and set up shop in the deepest part. It surrounds itself with its strongest guardians, its generals and advisors. The weaker forces go further away, closer to the surface, as a boarder patrol.

This explains the existence of mini-bosses and the slight spikes in difficulty. If the dungeon has a chock point they might set up a guardian their to protect the relatively strong and valuable troops below that point, leaving the less valuable troops more exposed.